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BPD or/and bipolar disorder or what


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sober and dry

Hi, sorry in advance this will be a long read but there is no other way to put it and I can´t talk this with anyone else.

 

So today I found myself thinking on this, "does she really suffers from BPD or/and bipolar disorder"?

Bare in mind that I'm not trying to justify her or that this has anything to do with her, I'm just trying to sort it out in my head as I thing you all will understand.

As I already said before, I don't want her back.

 

So here we go.

In the rage of the moment I was, when I broke up with her, after discovering she was been cheating me while she managed to put me on the shelf and manipulated me... She was saying many BS, like:

"take me away, do as you please with me, I let go of everything and go with you do what you want"

"I love you, I always did and I will never stop loving you"

"Please hate me"

"Please scream at me"

"I love you, but it's just platonic"

"I hope you really hope someday you can forgive me"

And so on, so on...

 

Thank God I was seeing trough it after 8 years of RS.

At this point I just snapped and said to her, while realizing myself that it's probably a very deep truth, "Stop, stop doing that! You sure need help! Girl you must have a serious mental issue, like double personality or bipolar disorder. No wait, it must be much serious than that..."

 

This sparked this hole and big question inside me since that day.

I know it's very hard to do it properly but maybe someone can help me out understanding what it is or if this can be "normal" behaviors to what I'm was not accustomed to.

Unfortunately I think this affected me very much since I was convincing myself that this behaviors I'm about to describe was normal ones and I was not "the normal one", and so shaping myself to accept it as normal.

 

My ex always seemed to have some mental problems, at least to some degree and I'm just saying this from her past. 2 suicide attempts when she was not being able to handle sadness of something that was not her fault or she couldn't do something to change it. She need psychiatric therapy at the age of 10-14 to get over some problems with her. And some more little clues.

 

She always treats her family very poorly, like she can be all love to them and all the sudden become very angry, unfair, sour and treat them like garbage, quite literally. Everyone from "outside" who sees this says that it's not normal.

 

During our RS this was some of the things that raised many red flags.

 

She always seeks instantaneous recognition, like, "UHUH I managed to do <something great>!" and if someone, anyone, who she is sharing this doesn't instantly give her the recognition she is seeking, her mood instantly swings and she become, once again, very angry, sour and so on...

I mean, it happens every single time! Even if this "recognition" comes right at the corner, it doesn't matter...

Out of curiosity, every time when the opposite happened she does not do what she expects from the others in this case.

 

And so on, I could give you many examples of this...

The must "scaring" part is, she does swings her mood, as she wants, in a matter of milliseconds and doesn't care for anyone's feeling at that instance. She manages to go from very deep good feelings to the opposite with the same ease.

Many times she is very impulsive and don't care about any consequences or implications. Mostly in terms of decisions but also reckless spending, alcohol abuse and eating disorders.

 

For anyone not very, very, close to her she has a very different behavior.

She manage to always be, and I really mean, ALWAYS, happy. (this really scares me too)

As soon as she knows someone new it's like she is in love with them, she is even capable of flirting someone the instant she gets the first words from the new person! But sometime later if she can, she just completely "forget" them, sometimes even despises them. This forgetting thing normally happens some 2-6 months later.

 

For last, and out of curiosity again, some 1 or 2 years ago, her father cheated and left her mother. She was and are very upset with him and is not overcoming this at any degree. So guess what, universe hit, or what?! She does just the same thing, despite the obvious differences...

Just another mind thought: Did I got ****ed up by this?!... Sure I did got ****ed up, but come on, I have no guilt on it...

 

I can give many more examples of this strange behaviors and many insight if needed, but I'm hopping this is enough.

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Does she really suffers from BPD or/and bipolar disorder? ...My ex always seemed to have some mental problems... 2 suicide attempts when she was not being able to handle sadness of something that was not her fault or she couldn't do something to change it. She need psychiatric therapy at the age of 10-14 to get over some problems with her.... all the sudden become very angry.

Sober, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, strong need for validation, impulsiveness, suicide attempts, and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. I caution that, if she really does have full-blown BPD, she almost certainly has a strong fear of abandonment (typically evident in irrational jealousy and repeated sh*t testing to see if you will remain loyal) -- which you make no mention of. Further, if she is a BPDer, she likely has one other personality disorder (e.g., narcissism or Histrionic PD) too. Moreover, a third of BPDers also suffer from co-occurring bipolar-1 disorder (and another 9% have bipolar-2).

 

I can give many more examples of this strange behaviors and many insight if needed.
If you would like to discuss her BPD traits further, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the following BPD warning signs apply strongly and which don't seem to apply:

 

  • 1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
  • 2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
  • 3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
  • 4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
  • 5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
  • 6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
  • 7. Low self esteem;
  • 8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
  • 9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
  • 10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
  • 11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
  • 12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
  • 13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
  • 14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
  • 15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
  • 16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
  • 17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
  • 18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

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sober and dry

Sorry for the late response but today was a very long day, but overall a good one. I also needed to think about it hard before answering to give you true responses.

 

At the begining she showed a lot of irrational jealousy, namely jealous of my friends who I did spend a lot of time with just because at that time I was able to and at the same time it wasn't possible to be with her... But I left my friends for her so it almost stooped.

 

What kind of "test to see if I would remain loyal" do you mean?

 

Well my responses to this 18 "points" do even scare myself, a lot by the way... It almost sounds like "improbable" or just fake, but well, it's the truth sadly...

 

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

7. Low self esteem;

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

 

Most definitely, in a very strong and obvious ways almost all the time...

 

14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

 

She did ran for the same degree as me as first priority, but since I dind't made it and she had to left the country for it and me off course, she whent to other degree that had nothing to do with the first one. However, when she ended her degree she was quite happy with it and she overjoyed the fact she didn't went for her supposed "first choice". She did this because I ended up getting a degree very similar to her "first choice".

So, well, I don't really know.

 

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

 

No, she always managed to sooth herself 99% of the times, even if I was there trying to sooth her I just couldn't do it and as soon as I quit trying she almost instantly managed to sooth herself. Weird, if you ask me.

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I hate to be a wet blanket but the amount of people I've seen diagnose their ex partners with some sort of mental disorder post breakup is insanely high. Mostly to try and understand their behaviour but also absolve themselves of any part they may have played.

 

It's not helpful because your not a psychiatrist and almost certainly have confirmation bias as you have decided she must have this disorder.

 

Ultimately you just need to focus on yourself even if she did have this disorder it doesn't matter you can't do anything about it. You can only control your own circumstances.

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sober and dry
I hate to be a wet blanket but the amount of people I've seen diagnose their ex partners with some sort of mental disorder post breakup is insanely high. Mostly to try and understand their behaviour but also absolve themselves of any part they may have played.

 

It's not helpful because your not a psychiatrist and almost certainly have confirmation bias as you have decided she must have this disorder.

 

Ultimately you just need to focus on yourself even if she did have this disorder it doesn't matter you can't do anything about it. You can only control your own circumstances.

 

Did you read my full post here? I'm just asking, not being sarcastic.

 

I can understand what you are saying, but there was A TON of signs and red flags all around.

Literally everyone who was close to me and didn't know her, when they meet her for the first time notice that her behavior was very off.

Almost all of the people from "my" life said she was no good for me because of her behavior and what would it make me.

As time passed some of them just stop saying that things, some of them though she was not that all bad and some of them stayed in their first impressions.

Even some people very close to her, including her mother, would say to me that she has some kind of disorder.

I think that, when must of the people sees the same thing from "different angles" it's probably the truth.

 

Sure we all have some issues or disorders, damn I really have a lot of them!

Sure I do know I had a part on what let to the BU and I'm very aware of that.

 

I'm not hopping to help her if she really has any type of disorder.

I'm not trying to purely diagnose her to absolve anyone, what is done, is done and it's not and I'm not trying to change it or explain it in any other way.

I'm just trying to understand if this kind of behavior is "normal" and if it affected me in some way, since I molded myself around it and made myself believe it was normal.

I'm not trying to get an "absolute truth" with this.

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I read your post and I'm saying unless she was formally diagnosed with this disorder this kind of thinking is ultimately pointless. You will be looking for things to match up with the criteria for this illness, hence confirmation bias. You are too close to her and not a professional in this field to be able to make that kind of diagnosis.

 

All I will say is it sounds like it was a unhealthy relationship for quite some time. She sounds like she has very low self esteem, probably depressed, BPD this does not make.

 

The reason I get annoyed when people start diagnosing their exs with mental issues is because it then comes down to "Na wasn't anything to do with me, crazy ex had BPD! or <insert disorder here>" without them actually ever being diagnosed with it. You need to focus on yourself and learn that this is not what you want in your next relationship.

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sober and dry
I read your post and I'm saying unless she was formally diagnosed with this disorder this kind of thinking is ultimately pointless. You will be looking for things to match up with the criteria for this illness, hence confirmation bias. You are too close to her and not a professional in this field to be able to make that kind of diagnosis.

 

All I will say is it sounds like it was a unhealthy relationship for quite some time. She sounds like she has very low self esteem, probably depressed, BPD this does not make.

 

The reason I get annoyed when people start diagnosing their exs with mental issues is because it then comes down to "Na wasn't anything to do with me, crazy ex had BPD! or <insert disorder here>" without them actually ever being diagnosed with it. You need to focus on yourself and learn that this is not what you want in your next relationship.

She was diagnosed with some disorders in her childhood but I don't know more than that in that topic, and I don't really care or should now because it's not my problem anymore!

 

I get the reason why you get annoyed, I really do.

Although I can say, I wouldn't come to that. As I have already tried to say, it did had my part in the BU, that's if a fact and it would not change if I get what I'm looking for. Besides non of my prespectives about the BU or the relationship would change and even if it does change it doesn't matter anymore.

 

Bottom line the answer I want is to know if this kind of behavior is normal or acceptable, because I have molded so much to believing that it was that I ended up not knowing if it's or not.

Yes I know that I made the first mistake from the beginning, changing myself to accept someone and trust me, lesson #1 for me learned. I'm just sicking if there is a lesson #x for me to learn more about myself. Something like, this is normal/acceptable behavior and I simply can't stand it or it's not.

 

Feeling me now? :p

 

Do you want examples were I think the list topics applies?

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I think we are agreeing on the same thing here.... I'll be very direct.

 

No. It's not normal, this was an unhealthy relationship. Everything else is besides the point it does not matter what disorders she may or may not have. Try not to get involved in this kind of relationship again in the future.

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I hate to be a wet blanket but the amount of people I've seen diagnose their ex partners with some sort of mental disorder post breakup is insanely high. Mostly to try and understand their behaviour but also absolve themselves of any part they may have played.

 

The part that tends to tickle me the most, is that NPDxBPD pairings are extremely common, so much that there is a lot of literature dedicated to just how likely the two disorders are to attract each other. Yet in every post or comment I've ever read on the internet of, "My ex totally has BPD" not one ever suspects that maybe they have NPD. Lol.

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sober and dry
I think we are agreeing on the same thing here.... I'll be very direct.

 

No. It's not normal, this was an unhealthy relationship. Everything else is besides the point it does not matter what disorders she may or may not have. Try not to get involved in this kind of relationship again in the future.

 

Ok, you are probably right. I'm on an 34hours no sleep state so tomorrow I will "decide". lol

So I guess, leasson number x (I really lost the count, they are just to many and maybe I should be writting them down to don't forget them on the way because they are invaluable), don´t re-mold your standards, needs or reason to someone's behavior just because you love them.

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The amount of people I've seen diagnose their ex partners with some sort of mental disorder post breakup is insanely high.... It's not helpful because your not a psychiatrist and almost certainly have confirmation bias as you have decided she must have this disorder.
Halcyon, nobody on this thread has claimed to be able to diagnose anything. Nor has anyone "decided she must have this disorder," as you say. Instead, Sober has simply raised the question of whether his Ex "really suffers from BPD or/and bipolar disorder?" In response, I have suggested he examine her past behavior to see if he is able to spot the warning signs for BPD. In short, Halcyon, you are confusing Sober's attempts to spot BPD warning signs with attempting to diagnose BPD. There is a world of difference between the two. Most adult women, for example, know how to spot all the warning signs for breast cancer without having a clue as to how it is diagnosed.

 

Likewise, before Sober graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. He could identify all the class drama queens -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

 

Similarly, Sober will be able to spot any strong BPD traits that occurred if he takes a little time to learn what traits are on the list. Indeed, after dating a woman for 8 years, he would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about red flags such as temper tantrums, impulsiveness, rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, and two suicide attempts. What is difficult to do -- and what Sober cannot do -- is to determine whether those strong BPD traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

 

Unless she was formally diagnosed with this disorder this kind of thinking is ultimately pointless.
On the contrary, learning how to spot BPD warning signs is important for many reasons and is not "pointless," as you say. This is why hundreds of mental health centers and hospitals have put this information on their public websites for the lay public to read. They know that the public is capable of learning how to spot these BPD warning signs. They also know that, when the public is able to spot the warning signs, they are far more likely to seek professional help when they need it -- and will do so far more quickly. I will give you just a few examples:

NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health)
disagrees with you. NIMH provides a description of BPD traits to the lay public (i.e., people like Indy and me) at
.

 

Mayo Clinic
disagrees with you. It educates the public about BPD traits at
.

 

National Mental Health Association
disagrees with you. NMHA (aka, Mental Health American) explains BPD traits to the public on its website at
.

 

U.S. House of Representatives
disagrees with you. House Resolution 1005 was unanimously passed by the House in April 2008. It recognizes the month of May as Borderline Personality Disorder Awareness Month. The text of the resolution says it is meant
"as a means of educating our nation about this disorder, the needs of those suffering from it, and its consequences."
See
.

Ultimately you just need to focus on yourself even if she did have this disorder it doesn't matter you can't do anything about it.
Of the 157 disorders listed in the AMA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making a large share of the abused partners feel so utterly confused they fear they may be losing their minds. This is why therapists see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. And this is why it can be such an important part of the healing process for those abused ex-partners -- a group that includes me -- to learn that they were dealing with a classic pattern of strong BPD traits. (Whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy the diagnostic guidelines for "having BPD" really doesn't matter to the partner because, even when they are well below that level, they can undermine a marriage and make his life miserable.)

 

The reason I get annoyed when people start diagnosing their exs with mental issues is because it then comes down to "Na wasn't anything to do with me, crazy ex had BPD!
Then you should complain about it where it is happening, not where it is not happening. In the first post of this thread, Sober stated "Bare in mind that I'm not trying to justify her or that this has anything to do with her, I'm just trying to sort it out in my head as I thing you all will understand."
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What kind of "test to see if I would remain loyal" do you mean?
Sober, if your exGF has strong BPD traits, she is unable to trust you. She is filled with so much self loathing and such low self esteem that she cannot believe that anyone else will continue to love her. Granted, a BPDer may believe temporarily that you are loving her at this very moment. She nonetheless lives in fear that, once you eventually realize how empty she is inside, your love will vanish and you will walk out.

 

The result is that a BPDer typically will administer an unending series of sh*t tests, i.e., she will make unreasonable demands or treat you badly just to find out if you will tolerate it and stay around. Passing one of the tests, however, gives her relief from her abandonment fear for only a few minutes. The only outcome of your passing a test, then, is that she will raise the hoop higher the next time she insists on your jumping through it.

 

My BPDer exW, for example, had a test whereby she would measure my love for her by the distance I chose to walk next to her. If I walked one or two steps ahead, for example, she interpreted it as evidence that I did not love her and was embarrassed to be seen walking next to her. Never mind that we were walking on a narrow, crowded city sidewalk where I often had to walk on ahead (or behind) to make room for other people coming towards us.

 

Similarly, my love and devotion also was measured in the length of time I chose to look at another attractive woman (e.g., a full second instead of a half-second). Indeed, she even perceived my love for my foster son and for her children as a threat. Of course, she wanted me to love her children and treat them well. She just didn't want me to love them too much because that would be a threat to her (i.e., she would start thinking I remained married to her only because I loved her adult children).

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Um no they don't disagree with me that is you putting your own spin on it. They are raising public awareness which is very different from ex partners playing pin the symptoms on the donkey which is what I disagree with. If I tried hard enough I could swear up and down one of my exes had BPD because she displayed quite a few of the symptoms when in fact she just had clinical depression.

 

What I disagree with is with people playing armchair doctor when they are not doctors.

 

On your first link this is stated:

 

"Unfortunately, BPD is often underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

 

A mental health professional experienced in diagnosing and treating mental disorders—such as a psychiatrist, psychologist, clinical social worker, or psychiatric nurse—can detect BPD based on a thorough interview and a discussion about symptoms. A careful and thorough medical exam can help rule out other possible causes of symptoms."

 

I'm all for public education and awareness. I'm not for people labelling people with disorders unless they have been diagnosed, yes they may show symptoms but confirmation bias is a real thing especially if an ex partner has decided there must be something wrong with their ex partner (which is all too common on sites like this). It could be BPD it could be one of hundreds of other disorders, it could be nothing of that sort. All it really boils down to is that this was a dysfunctional relationship.

 

Sober can learn what to look out for in future sure I encourage that, he has already stated things he did in the relationship he did which he won't do again which is good. He can't change his exes behaviour he can learn from it I don't see any benefit from trying to pin it on disorders when it probably isn't the case. You would be surprised how long people stay in utterly miserable relationships for god knows what reason, I certainly don't. I've noticed people after breakups go to Dr.Google and type in personality disorders and then pick one that suits how they view their ex which I don't think is healthy.

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OP, reading your first thread here and noting the date was a couple months ago, where would you place yourself in the recovery process? You had a long relationship, longer than some marriages, and it's still pretty fresh. If you had to describe your stage of recovery in a word, what would it be?

 

If you had to put a finger on the feelings/emotions behind making this thread, where did they come from?

 

If you had an unequivocal and undeniable reason for your ex leaving you, how would that assist you in your process?

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Thank you Carhill. Your last sentence was exactly what I was trying to say but I couldn't think of the right words.

 

I find in most cases ex partners are searching for a reason to validate whatever decision they made in ending the relationship or why it ended when they start looking up disorders and trying to pin one on their ex. It can be helpful to go "uh huh I knew she had BPD I was right to leave him/her!"; why it annoys me so much it doesn't get to the core of the issues and often is used as a way to mitigate any problems you yourself may have had thus you don't grow or learn.

 

Your Ex Probably Doesn't Have A Personality Disorder

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Halcyon,

 

 

I've read the link you posted before and it's in my opinion very unfortunately biased and sadly attempts to define the realities of an unspecified group of people searching for answers to questions that may not be answerable at this or any time.

 

 

I myself awoke from a crazy fog and have seen the pattern for what it is. I've experienced text book behavior. She at one point or another displayed all of the warning signs. Our relationship evolved in a textbook manner and even the aftermath was textbook with incredible delusions and deception so outlandish it's not worth telling all of the details.

 

 

I see Downtown constantly stressing the difference between recognizing symptoms and an armchair diagnosis.

 

 

What is important to remember is that many of the breakups that are discussed here are divorces, first love and the heinous ones with madness so traumatizing it takes extreme understanding to move on and heal.

 

 

I'm not sure why you have the compulsion to project your conclusion or if my observation is correct in this but I personally see the distinction between recognizing the possibility of something and determining the reality of a situation that may be beyond a layman's ability.

 

 

The most valid part of this being that if the warning signs are strong enough even without a real diagnosis the detachment process is more involved simply because of the harsh reality of abusive relationships and the Fear. Obligation. Guilt.

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Cell phone grammar corrections.
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I think there are two kinds of people who are trying to figure out if the dumper has a personality disorder:

 

Group A: People who are very stubborn, who can't see their own faults and can't accept that someone actually don't want to be with them anymore.

 

Group B: People who are very honest with themselves and just can't understand how someone they trusted so much was able to pull a switch and turn all the love into hate, so in order to understand things, they desperately search for an explanation.

 

The first time I was dumped, I was very immature and behaved like a complete *******. I was furious, but yet I never felt the urge to discuss the relationship on the Internet, because deep down inside, I knew why she left me, even though the breakup seemed to happen out of the blue.

 

The second time I was dumped was very different. I was in denial for weeks. I didn't get angry or sad. She couldn't last a day without me; I knew it, because she would call me 10 times if I didn't answer the phone. She told me every day how special I was, how other guys were so unappealing and how happy she was that she had found her perfect match.

 

I was initially very jealous, but I never suspected that she actually would line up a new guy right in front of me and replace me. One day, she told me what a terrible person I was, that the entire 6-year relationship was a mistake. A couple of weeks later, she started to brag about how fantastic the new dude was. Just by looking at her public profile, it was so obvious even to people who didn't know her that she had betrayed me. How could she not care?

 

You would suspect that I had hit her or something like that. Nope. One of the last thing I did, was to custom make a soft toy for her. This was the kind of relationship we had. We gave each other cute little gift all the time. We created a special world that only the two of us understood. It was mostly her ideas. And she kept doing it, every day, for 6 years.

 

Sure, we fought a lot, but the reasons were usually ridiculous, such as her being jealous of a character in a movie. This never worried me, since I only become jealous when a care deeply about someone.

 

I want to believe that I'm very honest with myself and my flaws. I can definitely see why someone would break up with me. I can be a bit of a party pooper, I can be bitter and I need a lot of time on my own. I can understand that she thought she would be happier with somebody else.

 

What I can't understand, is how she could treat me so badly. Last summer, I went on three dates with a girl, and I still feel guilt for hurting her, even though I was very honest about not wanting a relationship. It was obvious that she looking for someone to start a family with, while I still thinking about my ex and couldn't even build up the strength to find a job.

 

Perhaps I could have handled things better. I think about how I hurted her almost every day. When I started seeing another girl, I made sure that this would not be visible on my public Facebook profile, just in case she would try to check me up.

 

This is how I feel after turning someone down after three dates.

 

So how could my ex, after 6 years, brag about how she replaced me? Why would she send me nasty messages even though I just wanted to be left alone? Her mother, who was bipolar by the way, killed herself after a verbal fight with her. Wouldn't you become careful with what you say to people after something like that? How could she go from panicking every time I didn't answer the phone to complete indifference overnight? If she actually planned to dumped me, how could she let me spend hours fixing her computer and printer just days before? Why did she borrow stuff from me just days before the breakup? And why didn't she return the stuff she borrowed?

 

I can understand why she left me, but I will never understand why she tried to hurt me so much on purpose. Since I'm a person who is always looking for explanations, I basically have two options:

 

Option A) Becoming even more cynical and believe that this nasty behavior is completely normal and that I caused it by failing to be the alpha male.

 

Option B) Try to believe that most people want to treat their exes with respect and that only deeply disturbed individuals would use their exes for narcissistic supply.

 

I chose Option B.

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The part that tends to tickle me the most, is that NPDxBPD pairings are extremely common, so much that there is a lot of literature dedicated to just how likely the two disorders are to attract each other. Yet in every post or comment I've ever read on the internet of, "My ex totally has BPD" not one ever suspects that maybe they have NPD. Lol.

 

I don't know that this is true. I mean, maybe there are numbers citing this, but it always seemed to me that the most obvious pairing for a BPD is a co-dependent, than an NPD.

 

But then again, NPD's probably wouldn't care enough to post on forums about their "crazy ex", which is why I believe it's more common to have a BPD/codependent pairing.

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What Kevin_D said. I think basically what it comes down to is that unless you yourself experience how surreal those relationships feel from the beginning to the end, it is really tough to understand. If you interact with people who have been through one of them, they all get each other. They all understand exactly how the other person feels. Then you turn around and try talking about this in exact same words with people who never had a misfortune of having a relationship like this - they think you are nuts. None of my friends got it. My best buddy, the guy who is like my twin brother, the guy who saw my every damn break up before and could relate and understand me in all of them, even he looked at me like I was talking Chinese. The only person who got me was somebody who dealt with this before.

 

Trust me, if you asked me about a year ago what I think about this, I'd probably say it is a bunch of crap and people who think their exes are BPD are nuts and are just trying to find excuses. And then, over the period of about 7 months, I went through such a potent and surreal mindf@ckery administered to me by a 5'4, 110 lbs, sweet little girlie, in the end I thought *I* was nuts. I will be 38 in a few days. I have had plenty of dating experience. I have been dumped, I broke up with women... NONE of my previous breakups felt like this. I don't even know how to describe it. I literally thought I was going insane the first 2-3 weeks because it was completely impossible to reconcile how everything went. How your "soul mate" who couldn't get enough of you for months, who made you feel like the center of her universe, loved everything about you... How can she all the sudden, without a fight or a disagreement, literally overnight, turn into this weird cold person you don't even know, drop you like a used tampon and walk away like you never existed? Sure, every time you are dumped, the rejection hurts. This one... this one just about sent me to a loony bin. Even before I decided to look up the BPD, I felt like I was conned, like 7 months of my life were a mirage and the girl never existed. I NEVER felt like that about any of my exes. Hell, even all my friends were completely shocked and awed by what they saw happening. NOBODY could understand this.

 

Anyway, this crap is very much real and I know what OP is talking about. I read up as much as I could on this over the past a couple of months. Everything makes much more sense to me now. But the psychological damage it leaves you with is something else. To the point where people suggested that maybe I should check in with a shrink because it affects my work and life in general. You know, just your normal run of the mill break up...

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What I disagree with is with people playing armchair doctor when they are not doctors.
Again, Halcyon, you confuse spotting warning signs with making a diagnosis. If you go to any large online forum devoted to medical problems, you will find a thousand people discussing their ailments every day -- without anyone trying to shut down the discussions by claiming everyone is trying to do a diagnosis. Nearly everyone knows the great value in being able to spot warning signs for illnesses even when one is unable to diagnose them. As I noted above, hundreds of medical centers agree that the lay public should know how to spot these red flags. This is why they provide this information about symptoms (for medical diseases and mental disorders) on their public websites.

 

If I tried hard enough I could swear up and down one of my exes had BPD because she displayed quite a few of the symptoms when in fact she just had clinical depression.
BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, it is a group of basic human behaviors (ego defenses, actually) that every person on the planet has to some degree. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has it to some degree -- including all of your exes. At various stages of our lives, it is common for even healthy people to find themselves at the upper end of that spectrum. During early childhood, for example, you and I behaved like BPDers on a 24/7 basis. And most people start behaving that way again for a few years in adolescence when the hormones are raging.

 

At issue, then, is not whether Sober's Ex exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. But Sober is capable of spotting strong occurrences of BPD traits. Because we all exhibit these traits to some degree, we all know what they look like from the outside and what they feel like on the inside.

 

On your first link this is stated: "Unfortunately, BPD is often underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed."
BPD is often misdiagnosed by professionals because they may have to meet with a BPDer for two years before the client chooses to exhibit the bad behavior the spouse sees all week long. BPD is often under-diagnosed because professionals generally are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder. I discuss the reasons for this deliberate withholding of the true diagnosis from the client and her insurance company (and from the spouse as well) at Loath to Diagnose BPD.

 

I'm not for people labelling people with disorders unless they have been diagnosed.
I agree. Likewise, I'm opposed to people labeling other LoveShack members as "armchair psychologists" without providing any evidence that they have attempted to diagnose anything. Halcyon, please observe that I am quoting specific statements you made so readers can see I'm responding to statements you actually made, not statements I imagined you said. I ask that you extend Sober and me that same courtesy.
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I believe there are people with severe BPD and other personality traits who cause havoc in "normal" people's lives.

There are also people who manipulate others to such a degree that they make their partner crazy too. So whilst the mad man or mad woman is seen by everyone as the "problem", they in fact have been driven mad by the behaviour behind closed doors of their spouse.

 

BUT

Break ups are hard, they are hard for the dumper as well as the dumpee.A dumper may show signs of strange behaviour pre break up because they may be torn, they may be indecisive, their emotions may be in turmoil.

One day, "I can make this work", affectionate, warm

Next day " this is hopeless, I need to be strong and end this now", - cold , causes a fight, tantrum if pressed.

Two days later - "I love him, how can I leave, he loves me so much?" - crying and distraught, needy.

The next week - "I hate him... but I do love him I think" - stone faced, no affection.

Two days later -" he is a nice man, maybe we could work something out?" - hugs and kisses.

The next week " No, we cannot make this work, I have to go." - packs up and leaves.

 

Madness? NO just a person struggling to make a decision.

Turmoil and indecision causes people to act weirdly, personality disorders are at one end of a very broad spectrum of behaviour, we all can recognise ourselves in some of the traits shown to be typical of BPD or other PDs.

 

Through the eyes of the dumpee the partner must be mad, because the thought that they have been rejected by a sane person, who they love, is too much to bear.

Better for the ego, to blame it all on the ex. and even better if a "madness" label can be found for them too.

Edited by elaine567
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We are going to have to agree to disagree. I see people placing check lists of what BPD traits and asking for examples of times this may have matched up and excluding all other information also known as selective information.

 

All I'm saying is it is very hard for someone who is so close to someone to make an objective opinion especially when unresolved feelings regarding said ex are in play (feelings of rejection and so forth). You will commit confirmation bias if you go into this kind of research looking for your own preconceived beliefs of "Is my ex suffering xyz disorder?". You will select times where it matched up and ignore anything that goes against that belief. Which can make the best of us irrational and behave in ways that are not normal.

 

I had friends of mine tell me one of my exes must have had BPD a few years ago and if I tried hard enough her behavior would fit into the criteria. However I knew my memory was not objective and at that time I was hurting, looking for answers. With the gift of hindsight I realised no she is not mad, she did not have BPD, she did have depression however ultimately she was a flawed person like all of us including myself, dealing with a stressful situation.

 

Has Sobers ex displayed BPD traits? Sure probably at some point, as have I too probably at some point, as have you probably at some point. Speculation beyond those traits/warning signs is only useful in context of knowing what behavior to avoid in future relationships. Anything past that is speculative diagnosis. What I see more often than not is people deciding "well my ex had BPD or <insert mental illness here>?" When asked to elaborate they were never diagnosed and said person made that decision based on what they read online at a time when they were emotionally very fragile themselves and suggestible to ideas to help ease the pain.

 

If that helps a person get to sleep at night then fine, I don't think it's healthy for the person trying to heal or fair to said ex but whatever. It's easier to move on when you can find a critical flaw in someone and if you look hard enough you will find it.

I'm not saying abusive PD relationship are not real, not at all, it's very sad and sucks when it happens. However I find more than often if you dig past the surface of when people make claims such as this after a breakup.

 

A) These PD traits only affect a small portion of the persons life for a very short period of time (usually in lead up to breakup or other stressful event).

 

B) Use partners past history of mental illness as supportive evidence they must have some sort of PD. Most commonly depression and anxiety as if these are some gateway illnesses to PD. PD's are completely different things with very different and worse stigmas attached to them.

 

C) Exclude information that suggests otherwise, often on an unconscious level.

 

D) Are rightfully hurting quite badly after a breakup and looking for an answer as to why someone who loved them would leave/hurt them. Illness is easier to accept than possible other factors that may be in play.

 

All I'm asking is people take a step back and ask themselves is there any other reason why you're looking down this path?

Edited by Halcyon
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Writing the below for both the OP and halcion.

Likewise, before Sober graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. He could identify all the class drama queens -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

I'm an Avoidant PD, they actually do get better 90% of the time with therapy.

I did not do therapy, i started reading a lot about it and analyzing myself and my interactions with others.

It helped, i'll probably never be cured of that instinct to avoid social interactions [it's motivated by fear blown out of proportion], but it does get better and easier as time goes by and you try harder.

 

Similarly, Sober will be able to spot any strong BPD traits that occurred if he takes a little time to learn what traits are on the list. Indeed, after dating a woman for 8 years, he would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about red flags such as temper tantrums, impulsiveness, rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, and two suicide attempts. What is difficult to do -- and what Sober cannot do -- is to determine whether those strong BPD traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

 

On the contrary, learning how to spot BPD warning signs is important for many reasons and is not "pointless," as you say. This is why hundreds of mental health centers and hospitals have put this information on their public websites for the lay public to read. They know that the public is capable of learning how to spot these BPD warning signs. They also know that, when the public is able to spot the warning signs, they are far more likely to seek professional help when they need it -- and will do so far more quickly. I will give you just a few examples:

I used to think the same but i don't agree with this anymore in full.

 

I had a few relationships with women who could at least in part show signs of BPD.

It does not matter to me anymore if they were or are not BPD, it is just a label and maybe it is too easy applied.

 

What is important is that through the criteria of classification of BPD, i have realized what boundaries one should have.

When you are involved with a person with PD, then your boundaries will suffer [avoidant too], and the length of time being with one is also an indicator of how strong your initial boundaries and self-esteem were [not that strong OP, you have some work there to do].

By reading up on these disorders, you should not attempt to classify everyone as a PD, but to figure out if the behaviour is or is not dysfunctional.

If it is something you should put up with or not.

 

You should figure out boundaries, because that is the common denominator of ppl who end up with a PD and stay for a while ... messed up boundaries.

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You should figure out boundaries, because that is the common denominator of ppl who end up with a PD and stay for a while ... messed up boundaries.

 

I think being able to mess up people's (sometimes very adequate) boundaries, is a skill many with a PD seem to have.

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What Kevin_D said. I think basically what it comes down to is that unless you yourself experience how surreal those relationships feel from the beginning to the end, it is really tough to understand. If you interact with people who have been through one of them, they all get each other. They all understand exactly how the other person feels. Then you turn around and try talking about this in exact same words with people who never had a misfortune of having a relationship like this - they think you are nuts. None of my friends got it. My best buddy, the guy who is like my twin brother, the guy who saw my every damn break up before and could relate and understand me in all of them, even he looked at me like I was talking Chinese. The only person who got me was somebody who dealt with this before.

 

Trust me, if you asked me about a year ago what I think about this, I'd probably say it is a bunch of crap and people who think their exes are BPD are nuts and are just trying to find excuses. And then, over the period of about 7 months, I went through such a potent and surreal mindf@ckery administered to me by a 5'4, 110 lbs, sweet little girlie, in the end I thought *I* was nuts. I will be 38 in a few days. I have had plenty of dating experience. I have been dumped, I broke up with women... NONE of my previous breakups felt like this. I don't even know how to describe it. I literally thought I was going insane the first 2-3 weeks because it was completely impossible to reconcile how everything went. How your "soul mate" who couldn't get enough of you for months, who made you feel like the center of her universe, loved everything about you... How can she all the sudden, without a fight or a disagreement, literally overnight, turn into this weird cold person you don't even know, drop you like a used tampon and walk away like you never existed? Sure, every time you are dumped, the rejection hurts. This one... this one just about sent me to a loony bin. Even before I decided to look up the BPD, I felt like I was conned, like 7 months of my life were a mirage and the girl never existed. I NEVER felt like that about any of my exes. Hell, even all my friends were completely shocked and awed by what they saw happening. NOBODY could understand this.

 

Anyway, this crap is very much real and I know what OP is talking about. I read up as much as I could on this over the past a couple of months. Everything makes much more sense to me now. But the psychological damage it leaves you with is something else. To the point where people suggested that maybe I should check in with a shrink because it affects my work and life in general. You know, just your normal run of the mill break up...

This. Very much. If you don't understand it it's because you have never experienced it. I pick up on exes of BPDers from the bewilderment in their posts.

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