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In Search Of... Having a hard time forming friendships or finding companions, lovers, or associates? Is someone pursuing an unwelcome relationship with you? Talk about your experiences here.

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Old 14th February 2018, 2:43 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
Does it count as positive if the person isn't single haha.
Of course it is!
It doesn't matter who the person is or whether they are single at all.
You're on a social learning curve so it's all practice.The more practice you get the better.

Post up the books you decide to get. I'd b interested to take a look.
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Old 14th February 2018, 3:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
....
As for drinking, two day old interaction.


Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates
Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates
Me: That's great but I don't drink
Her: Why is that
Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.


Conversation died shortly afterwards.


As I say its 14 Feb and everyone is getting gifts, everyone has gf's and wives around me and I sit here. Such is life.
ZA, how are you screening for your dates, whom you match with? The interaction you mentioned above is similar to the HUNDREDS of other interactions you have had on Tinder. Of course the interaction died out, you and she just aren't compatible.

It has been mentioned before on your threads, many many times. Basically on Tinder (IIRC) you keep making contact with women who are into going out and partying and that is just not you. While I DO think that you can afford to come across more fun and less uptight, I do NOT think these women will ever be a match for you. There are plenty of women in their 30s--your age--who are NOT into drinking and partying. Surely there are places/online dating sites that tend to attract women who are not into the bars and club scene and/or who are more intellectual.

As far as the body language thing and your "natural" friend...

--Eye contact is good, but it needs to be steady, RELAXED eye contact. If you are too nervous or intense or in general trying too hard with this stuff, that can be overwhelming and off-putting.

--On that note, see how else your friend carries himself. Chances are your friend is at ease with himself, which puts the women he interacts with, at ease. See how your friend jokes and banters with the women in the yoga studio.

--Also pay attention to how your friend banters not only with women but with the other guys there.

Anyway my thoughts for now...

Last edited by Imajerk17; 14th February 2018 at 3:40 PM..
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Old 14th February 2018, 3:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by GemmaUK View Post
Of course it is!
It doesn't matter who the person is or whether they are single at all.
You're on a social learning curve so it's all practice.The more practice you get the better.

Post up the books you decide to get. I'd b interested to take a look.


I must be honest I am mainly doing web searches at the moment, there is lots of info out there and its easy small digestible at a time info. My approach to learning has always been to read and then try something, granted this is much harder than anything I have tried before because I am constantly going against what I want to do and rather trying to do something different.


The other thing I try to do is have some sort of objective BUT the problem here is I need to actually connect with the person in some meaningful way and by that not be intimidated by them, which sounds pathetic because I can sit with the most successful people and not be intimidated but put in front of a good looking lady and it all falls apart quite quickly. I gain comfort from familiarity. See I am trying to volunteer more info, making a conscious effort to do so in fact.


People I like most are those I find that familiarity with quickly and I mean in minutes and for some odd reason that's very comforting.


The other perhaps weakness I have is that I think a lot and try work things out, like why K would contact me today at 7.30am in the morning to confirm an event which we discussed at length on Sunday. You might be pleased to know I decided to just say I didn't enjoy Vtines day but I hoped she has a special one. Normally I probably wouldn't not have said anything about my own feelings for something.


Truthfully I care a lot about many things/people but caring can sometimes make people perceive you as weak so while I do show it some of the time its easier to keep it to myself and let actions talk rather than words.


What I am really trying to do is adopt a calmer less intense expression, which is very, very difficult but I am trying, even as I sit here typing this. I don't have a lot of confidence to act on though, still figuring that out, success in something does give me some confidence but it seems very hard to manufacture fake dating success, whether I should contemplate that is a moot point.


In summary...I am trying but I still want some sort of impossible scenario because, well I like the unlikely.
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Old 14th February 2018, 3:55 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Imajerk17 View Post
ZA, how are you screening for your dates, whom you match with? The interaction you mentioned above is similar to the HUNDREDS of other interactions you have had on Tinder. Of course the interaction died out, you and she just aren't compatible.

It has been mentioned before on your threads, many many times. Basically on Tinder (IIRC) you keep making contact with women who are into going out and partying and that is just not you. While I DO think that you can afford to come across more fun and less uptight, I do NOT think these women will ever be a match for you. There are plenty of women in their 30s--your age--who are NOT into drinking and partying. Surely there are places/online dating sites that tend to attract women who are not into the bars and club scene and/or who are more intellectual.

As far as the body language thing and your "natural" friend...

--Eye contact is good, but it needs to be steady, RELAXED eye contact. If you are too nervous or intense or in general trying too hard with this stuff, that can be overwhelming and off-putting.

--On that note, see how else your friend carries himself. Chances are your friend is at ease with himself, which puts the women he interacts with, at ease. See how your friend jokes and banters with the women in the yoga studio.

--Also pay attention to how your friend banters not only with women but with the other guys there.

Anyway my thoughts for now...


1: No argument there.
2: Again it isn't me but maybe I need to be that to get anything I vaguely want?
3: The problem is I cannot find these people anywhere, sure I can find 30's divorced with kids and dead end jobs. What I cannot find are dynamic, intelligent intellectual people, I have never ever managed to find many of these and when I do they aren't usually the whole package I am looking for, or MOSTLY they haven't been into me. What inevitably happens when I do find them is I do invest heavily in the pursuit and that's fine because it gives me some sort of balance, I can feel like I am trying to do something even if it is in the league of the impossible. The other problem with 30's people is they pretty much want kids immediately and that doesn't really interest me. I have thought about this a lot and my age range is probably 25-29.


One of the ultimately irritating things for me is not know how to do something, this is because every time I try something it goes really wrong for whatever reason, so there is a reluctance to try anything because every time I do the results are poor.


The majority of ladies don't connect with me at all, to the extent I get almost zero attention at all. I will admit I have been on paid dates aka seeking arrangement and those weren't any better but at least they were attractive so in some respects I enjoyed the purely superficial side of it but there was no intellectual connection at all.


Its quite special to meet someone who does give me a challenge intellectually and has the overall package I like, its very, very, very rare to find though.


Look I would be a very wild card choice, I will own up in the past I have chased pretty much all the people I liked weren't single and I often asked myself if they would actually leave their bf for me and honestly if I was them it would be a huge risk.
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Old 14th February 2018, 4:27 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
As for drinking, two day old interaction.


Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates
Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates
Me: That's great but I don't drink
Her: Why is that
Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.


Conversation died shortly afterwards.
I have read back a bit.
I just want to point something out here ZA.
In the above conversation you offered up a few options, she chose one and you then said 'That's great but I don't drink'.
First off - you already know a dinner date is a bad idea for a first meet - when will you apply it?
Don't suggest it in future.
But you did suggest it and then you said: 'That's great, but I don't drink'.
You had already chosen yourself to put the dinner option out there and then you killed it flat. I would have assumed there would never be any dinner dates with you - for all I know you are always in training.

Once you had thrown that option in you could have said 'That's great! I'm a foodie, I love trying out different foods, what's your favourite? I'm in training right now for a race so won't be drinking but it would be great to sit down, have a bit of time, some good food and get to know you better. '

Your friend is as IMJ said - he is most definitely someone to observe when you are with him - watch ALL of his interactions with women and with ANYONE.
Watch his eyebrows, eyes, head movements, his shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet.
Plus, listen to what he says.
Also, listen to what the person he is interacting with says and notice what they do too with all of those body parts.
He is one to watch and to read.
Do the studying and you will understand it - all of it.

You're trying things out almost blind just now.
Step back, get reading some decent books, watch that show I suggested (also watch TV dramas - you can watch and learn to read body language in decent well directed TV shows)
Give yourself a break and some time to learn about this stuff.
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Old 14th February 2018, 4:47 PM   #66
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Add on to my last post:

Maybe also we could do with understanding what you deem 'incredibly beautiful' as you have said in this thread that those are women you would date if their intelligence held up to or beat yours.

Name some celebrity names you deem attractive and OK for you to date.
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Old 15th February 2018, 5:12 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by GemmaUK View Post
I have read back a bit.
I just want to point something out here ZA.
In the above conversation you offered up a few options, she chose one and you then said 'That's great but I don't drink'.
First off - you already know a dinner date is a bad idea for a first meet - when will you apply it?
Don't suggest it in future.
But you did suggest it and then you said: 'That's great, but I don't drink'.
You had already chosen yourself to put the dinner option out there and then you killed it flat. I would have assumed there would never be any dinner dates with you - for all I know you are always in training.

Once you had thrown that option in you could have said 'That's great! I'm a foodie, I love trying out different foods, what's your favourite? I'm in training right now for a race so won't be drinking but it would be great to sit down, have a bit of time, some good food and get to know you better. '

Your friend is as IMJ said - he is most definitely someone to observe when you are with him - watch ALL of his interactions with women and with ANYONE.
Watch his eyebrows, eyes, head movements, his shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet.
Plus, listen to what he says.
Also, listen to what the person he is interacting with says and notice what they do too with all of those body parts.
He is one to watch and to read.
Do the studying and you will understand it - all of it.

You're trying things out almost blind just now.
Step back, get reading some decent books, watch that show I suggested (also watch TV dramas - you can watch and learn to read body language in decent well directed TV shows)
Give yourself a break and some time to learn about this stuff.


I don't sugar coat things so yes while you have a point I guess I just became irritated that once again it was about drinking. I only went the dinner date route because she wanted that because when I offered up a coffee date it was a case of "no I prefer drinking dates".


Again this was me picking the best of a bad set of matches. Why say I wont be drinking now, that gives and expectation I might drink in the future?


I spend a lot of time with this friend by virtue of working with and spending time out of work with him. He is pretty much everything I am not. He jokes around with ladies, which I never can do, he finds something to connect with them and I can never do that, ok maybe very rarely. He is fitter better looking than me, despite being 10 and a few more years older than me.


The fundamentals between him and I at dating just aren't on the same page, he has tried to help me in the past but those ideas were like trying to climb a mountain with no rope, doomed to fail badly and they always did. He encouraged me to go after the co worker that flopped even though I knew the idea was a bad one from the outset, I stuck with it. He is fun and funny, I am quiet and serious. I do try to be more outgoing.


Most of all he has confidence to be cheeky and flirt and I don't have that, truthfully I never have had it, sure I find it some of time when K is around but that's pretty pointless because she isn't in the game at all. I can find it when I am working and doing difficult deals with clients but then its easy because there is some common goal and objective.


He
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Old 15th February 2018, 6:07 AM   #68
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Add on to my last post:

Maybe also we could do with understanding what you deem 'incredibly beautiful' as you have said in this thread that those are women you would date if their intelligence held up to or beat yours.

Name some celebrity names you deem attractive and OK for you to date.


This is quite difficult to answer.


Because its about balance and by that I mean someone with intelligence and amazing personality can become very attractive even if they aren't that in shape but that is relative.


There needs to be some physical attraction. But its hard for me to define what that is. I guess I like natural looking people.


I don't really follow celebrities per se but I suppose Blake Lively would rate up there on my "list".


As I say wants are very much tempered by what I think I can get. Crass example of this is as follows


Friend: Wouldn't you want to ....... her
Me: Not really because she wouldn't want me.


Why want the completely impossible unless you can actually shop there, its like going to a designer store with $20 and hoping to buy an outfit, it wont happen and unfortunately I think that's very true with dating to. If you look great and have the charm and swagger then maybe you can have those gorgeous people, add a thick wallet and you can definitely get dates with them but if you are like me, well I cant shop there so for the most part its pointless even looking with the expectation of getting anything.


Apart from one fairly drunk Tinder date nobody has ever found me physically attractive.
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Old 15th February 2018, 4:08 PM   #69
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I don't sugar coat things so yes while you have a point I guess I just became irritated that once again it was about drinking. I only went the dinner date route because she wanted that because when I offered up a coffee date it was a case of "no I prefer drinking dates".


Again this was me picking the best of a bad set of matches. Why say I wont be drinking now, that gives and expectation I might drink in the future?
You CHOSE to say you are in training for a race and you have said before you only do drink alcohol with those you are comfortable with.
So say you are training if your plan is to continue saying that you are training for this or that or whatever next.
You could, like MANY HAVE SAID TIME AND AGAIN not mention not drinking - at all.
You continue to stop conversations dead with 'I don't drink'
You are a grown man, you have intelligence (I am wondering on this score) and logic (I'm finding that really difficult to find in you) and are aware that saying you don't drink in a culture where drinking is very popular you will be asked. Surely????!!!
You need to come up with something filled out enough and still positive as a first response.
If you simply cannot abide drinkers then you get out of that conversation with that person telling them this will not go any further and you're not interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
I spend a lot of time with this friend by virtue of working with and spending time out of work with him. He is pretty much everything I am not. He jokes around with ladies, which I never can do, he finds something to connect with them and I can never do that, ok maybe very rarely. He is fitter better looking than me, despite being 10 and a few more years older than me.


The fundamentals between him and I at dating just aren't on the same page, he has tried to help me in the past but those ideas were like trying to climb a mountain with no rope, doomed to fail badly and they always did. He encouraged me to go after the co worker that flopped even though I knew the idea was a bad one from the outset, I stuck with it. He is fun and funny, I am quiet and serious. I do try to be more outgoing.


Most of all he has confidence to be cheeky and flirt and I don't have that, truthfully I never have had it, sure I find it some of time when K is around but that's pretty pointless because she isn't in the game at all. I can find it when I am working and doing difficult deals with clients but then its easy because there is some common goal and objective.


He
You have completely missed the point yet again. Gaaaaahhh!
He is one to observe for body language learning.
Not to compare yourself to.

As for whom you find attractive (Blake) - if she worked a till in a shop would she looks wise be your level?
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Old 15th February 2018, 7:46 PM   #70
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Are you sure you really even want to date/a relationship?
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Old 16th February 2018, 1:27 AM   #71
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You CHOSE to say you are in training for a race and you have said before you only do drink alcohol with those you are comfortable with.
So say you are training if your plan is to continue saying that you are training for this or that or whatever next.
You could, like MANY HAVE SAID TIME AND AGAIN not mention not drinking - at all.
You continue to stop conversations dead with 'I don't drink'
You are a grown man, you have intelligence (I am wondering on this score) and logic (I'm finding that really difficult to find in you) and are aware that saying you don't drink in a culture where drinking is very popular you will be asked. Surely????!!!
You need to come up with something filled out enough and still positive as a first response.
If you simply cannot abide drinkers then you get out of that conversation with that person telling them this will not go any further and you're not interested.



You have completely missed the point yet again. Gaaaaahhh!
He is one to observe for body language learning.
Not to compare yourself to.

As for whom you find attractive (Blake) - if she worked a till in a shop would she looks wise be your level?


Sure, I wont mention drinking then go on a date and get asked the same question, I might as state it up front and if she isn't interested I haven't wasted my time going on a date, I think that is quite logical and transparent.


They choose to stop the conversations dead not me, how about some of them actually accept I don't drink and perhaps, just perhaps I am a great guy despite that but NO its a throw away fact I don't drink. What you advocate is once again simply bowing down to the needs of someone else before my own which I will not do.


Of course I am aware of those things but I would like to think anyone with some sort of logic wouldn't judge me purely on that, clearly I am wrong about that. I don't need to get out of any conversation they generally walk away anyway so really the effect is the same.


Well when you observe something the idea is to measure what you are observing to what you do and know, its how people learn, imitation as they say is the greatest form of flattery so reading between the lines you suggest I observe but don't compare and don't copy, well if I don't compare I then cant measure what I do right and what I do wrong.


Observe and copy that's basically what it boils down to, long ago I learnt that perhaps dating and communism have something in common the more the same you are the better your odds and the more generic you are the better your odds.


If she worked at a till, probably not. If she worked in marketing/advertising/studying then possibly yes. I am sure there will be millions of reasons why that response is unsuitable.


Lastly I am sorry you find my replies unintelligent and illogical.
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Old 16th February 2018, 5:03 PM   #72
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Sure, I wont mention drinking then go on a date and get asked the same question, I might as state it up front and if she isn't interested I haven't wasted my time going on a date, I think that is quite logical and transparent
They choose to stop the conversations dead not me, how about some of them actually accept I don't drink and perhaps, just perhaps I am a great guy despite that but NO its a throw away fact I don't drink. What you advocate is once again simply bowing down to the needs of someone else before my own which I will not do.
You are not bowing down to the needs of others for chrissakes (!!), you are looking after your own if you fill your response out.
What I and others are suggesting is a good filled out response about why you don't drink so that you only get maybe one or two more questions if any about it.
The drinking issue ruffles your feathers SO MUCH that you would be better finding something that works for you.
What I DO NOT understand is that you continue to say 'I don't drink', No straight up explanation, no empathy there for yourself nor them for what they may think.
You could say:
I don't drink because I'm allergic and my hands swell up if I ingest alcohol.
I don't drink because I don't like the taste, never have.
I don't drink because I love driving and want to always be ready for driving.
Give a reason that can't be questioned too much.
It's easy.
There's black and white but you are really not applying logic nor thinking of the thoughts that might cross other people's minds on this subject. Be aware.
they will ask. The fuller response you give the less they will question you.

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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
Of course I am aware of those things but I would like to think anyone with some sort of logic wouldn't judge me purely on that,
Oh c'mon! You are not a precious flower ZA!
You have a clue how you come accross - you write in depth about it all of the time.

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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
Well when you observe something the idea is to measure what you are observing to what you do and know, its how people learn, imitation as they say is the greatest form of flattery so reading between the lines you suggest I observe but don't compare and don't copy, well if I don't compare I then cant measure what I do right and what I do wrong.
Observe and copy that's basically what it boils down to, long ago I learnt that perhaps dating and communism have something in common the more the same you are the better your odds and the more generic you are the better your odds.
What you posted about this guy was a diatribe of how you compare to him right now - nothing positive - did that aid you in any way at all??

What you should be doing is observing him, not mirroring him - mirroring is for when you are attracted to a woman.
Observe him and figure what you can add to your own personality - take it gently or you will feel seriously awkward.

But - get reading - what books have you got on order or what have you had delivered?
I can't help but suspect the answer is none - please surprise me!!

My questioning of your intelligence and logic stems from you only appear (from what you say) to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over.....
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Old 16th February 2018, 11:34 PM   #73
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Yes indeed on doing the same things over and over.

OP, You have had the same conversation w your Tinder dates--the one w the "I don't drink" punchline--like what, hundreds of times, and each time it goes over like a lead raft.

The only logical thing would be either to stop bringing that conversation up (you have gotten bunches of alternative suggestions from GammaUK and others over many many threads of yours) OR to realize that Tinder just isn't for you and search elsewhere. For some reason you won't do either though

ZA, you need to understand what is REALLY happening in the 'I don't drink' conversations you keep having. Whether your prospective dates can articulate it like this or not, you are actually coming across very rigid and stuck in your ways, just not open to a good time. And so of course she isn't interested. What the woman talking to you cares about, deep down, is if you'd be a cool normal guy who'd be a fun date. The answers GammaUK suggested where you fill out your response, go towards reassuring your date that indeed, you could be a cool normal guy. You'd be revealing something about yourself which would make you appear more human/likeable.

As for your friend, don't try to be exactly as him, instead observe his relaxed confident open posture, how he doesn't talk too fast, the way he teases the women, how he generally seems to not take interactions too seriously. You can pick up some things. As he is older when you and he are out ask him to coach you. He may be able to observe specific things w body language you could be doing better. (That I think would be better than trying to read a book on body language, which may be too much theory.)

Last edited by Imajerk17; 16th February 2018 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 17th February 2018, 5:14 AM   #74
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This guy could become a coach, it's a possibility but sometimes those who just have a gift for body language aren't even really aware of what they are doing.
If this guy says 'I don't know' I just do 'xyz' he isn't going to be a great coach but is definitely worth observing.

A perfect opportunity landed today in terms of level of theory I am talking about in terms of books. There's a vast quantity of books on body language out there - some for students studying psychology and some for laymen, some are right in the middle. This is why I advocate reading reviews to see what others think of different types of books.
The level I am talking about may be too much theory for some though which I can appreciate - an example of the level I am talking about is here - post 32.
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/roma...i-intimidating
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Old 17th February 2018, 6:19 AM   #75
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Hey Gemma,

Iíve loved reading your posts on body language. I just searched for Paul Ekman on Amazon and heís written a LOT of books. If you donít mind, could you suggest one for the average joe? I would like to start with a book that has a lot of pictures/photos if youíre aware of any.
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