Had plenty of dates... all of them refused anything more than a kiss.

March 9, 2015

Hi, I'm at the middle stage where I've got more dates than I possibly could have hoped for. I started at nothing, and have finally made enough improvements to myself that I seem to be worth dating. By the 3rd to 4th date however, I would think that a lady would be agreeable to more intimacy - like making out, or the bedroom - but I've been proved wrong every time.

I'd like some help analyzing where I'm going wrong. I'm completely opposite to the classic alpha male, well groomed, and who has unlimited friends - I'm more of the renaissance man who likes cultured stuff, going to museums, and long chats in the coffee shop. But I can't figure out what specifically is making my initial level of attraction disappear.

March 9, 2015

You haven't really provided much to go on.

All I can think is that you're falling into this trap..

Men Often Misread Women's Sexual Cues: Study

Basically, Men often misread a womans queues and end thinking she's more keen than she is.

The other possible cause if that you're simply being too passive.

It's not uncommon for a guy to make a solid move on the second date. If you're not at least trying for a kiss by this point, then the whole thing loses momentum and could stall.

Finally, it could be that there's something subtle about you that it's taking women a few dates to notice. When they do, they immediately bail. I can't tell you what that might be, because you haven't provided much to go on.

March 9, 2015

Garcon1986,

By the 3rd to 4th date however, I would think that a lady would be agreeable to more intimacy - like making out, or the bedroom - but I've been proved wrong every time.

Stop expecting it and you won't be disappointed

If you are interacting with "cultured" ladies then don't expect them to let you grope their tits after a few coffee dates. Do you want a lady who sets the bar high or do you want the town "bike"? Your choice.

March 9, 2015

What do you need to know about my dating approaches? I am willing to reveal quite a bit. Generally I start by bonding with someone on a common interest, and then act a little bit disinterested in intimacy because the people I've met usually don't want intimacy before trust. Then I judge by a good hug, to see how much they like me, then go in for the kiss if the hug went well. I will also see how much they like holding my hand. I only hold someone in a girlfriend/ boyfriend kind of way (holding someone's hip, or sit really close to them) after a 3rd/ 4th date. I try as much as possible to find out what makes them laugh/ makes them really enjoy the conversation.

Let me know what the subtle thing is that you are referring Neowulf. I'm interested in hearing more.

March 9, 2015

All I can think is that you're falling into this trap..
Men Often Misread Women's Sexual Cues: Study

Not a very helpful article. Mostly because it focuses on young 18-21 year old age ranges, whom do not have much dating experience:

The study included 96 male and 103 female U.S. college undergraduates who took part in a "speed-meeting" exercise that involved talking for three minutes to each of five members of the opposite sex.

Generally I start by bonding with someone on a common interest, and then act a little bit disinterested in intimacy because the people I've met usually don't want intimacy before trust.

You're doing the dreaded push-pull or hot-cold tactic, which really annoys people. You have to show consistency with your intentions. Showing a little and pulling back can aggravate and confuse the other person, especially at a subconscious level, which affects chemistry. Don't be afraid to show your interest. Start slow and slowly build the intimacy. If a woman shows signs of disinterest toward your affections, don't drag out the encounters. Just tell her you don't see a connection.

March 9, 2015

Hi, I'm at the middle stage where I've got more dates than I possibly could have hoped for. I started at nothing, and have finally made enough improvements to myself that I seem to be worth dating. By the 3rd to 4th date however, I would think that a lady would be agreeable to more intimacy - like making out, or the bedroom - but I've been proved wrong every time.

I'd like some help analyzing where I'm going wrong. I'm completely opposite to the classic alpha male, well groomed, and who has unlimited friends - I'm more of the renaissance man who likes cultured stuff, going to museums, and long chats in the coffee shop. But I can't figure out what specifically is making my initial level of attraction disappear.

I find it odd that you think by 3 dates it is par for the course to hop in bed.

I think the fact that this hasn't happened yet is pretty normal especially if a woman is looking for more than a hook up.

Are you interested in having a gf or just getting laid? Nothing is wrong with the latter but if you are, then you may need to look for different types of women or change your approach. If a woman has been out with you 3 or 4 times she most likely likes you or else she'd not have bothered to see you a second time, so my best guess is that these women are not just looking for a romp in the hay and I don't suggest you assume 3 dates is the prime time for sex.

Edited March 9, 2015 by MissBee

March 10, 2015

I started at nothing, and have finally made enough improvements to myself that I seem to be worth dating.

Just out of curiosity what improvements exactly did you make?

March 10, 2015

If she is attracted to you, this is not an unreasonable expectation. I would expect the same.

This might be your problem.

My experience has been that most women are willing to have sex no later than the 2nd date. Every woman I've ever known has admitted they know within a few minutes of meeting a guy whether or not they would have sex with him. If most women insisted on waiting until later on to have sex, there wouldn't be so many threads on LS about a guy ghosting after he gets laid.

These women keep going out with him, it computes to me that they must like him in some way but are not rushing to hop in bed.

As for most women hopping in bed on the second date, I have before but that was the exception not the rule for me.

He needs to figure out what the point and objective is for him. Is someone choosing not to have sex on the third date a problem if they like you and keep seeing you? That should be what he needs to figure out. Or is his goal to bed a woman as quickly as possible.

March 10, 2015

You haven't really provided much to go on.

All I can think is that you're falling into this trap..
Men Often Misread Women's Sexual Cues: Study

Wow, that study pretty much confirms that men really are thinking with their d*cks. Basically, it says the hornier they are or the more attractive the woman is, the more convinced they are that she likes him back.

March 10, 2015

Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but if a woman is still going out with you after 3 dates and she knows you are romantic, not a friend, because you do the things you said you do, touch her here and there, then I'm as puzzled as you are. Usually women will bail right away if they decide they are not attracted enough to pursue sex down the road. As long as you're being clear it's not just a friendship because you are touching, you are kissing, I really don't get it either. But it must be something you're conveying that's putting them off -- or just bad luck. You certainly can't make them feel you've done your time and paid your dues and now it's time for the payoff in any way because that's a cold shower, for sure. But you sound like you have better sense than that.

I say just keep doing what you're doing. Unless there's something else you need to add, I just don't see why one of these ladies doesn't start working her way into being your girlfriend.

March 10, 2015

Alright so introduce me on how to become more alpha male. I'm all ears except if it involves going into a loud bar and trying to talk to random people off the street. I'm a big fan of medium volume latin dance music and a small amount of alcohol though.

If they are not willing to make out with you at the second date, they won't do it at all? Then where did I go wrong. Let me know what I need to fix.

If she is attracted to you, this is not an unreasonable expectation. I would expect the same.

This might be your problem.

My experience has been that most women are willing to have sex no later than the 2nd date. Every woman I've ever known has admitted they know within a few minutes of meeting a guy whether or not they would have sex with him. If most women insisted on waiting until later on to have sex, there wouldn't be so many threads on LS about a guy ghosting after he gets laid.

March 10, 2015

These women keep going out with him, it computes to me that they must like him in some way but are not rushing to hop in bed.

As for most women hopping in bed on the second date, I have before but that was the exception not the rule for me.

He needs to figure out what the point and objective is for him. Is someone choosing not to have sex on the third date a problem if they like you and keep seeing you? That should be what he needs to figure out. Or is his goal to bed a woman as quickly as possible.

I sometimes wonder if I should experiment with both? My long term goal is to get a stable girlfriend but sometimes I think I should try for hookups.

March 10, 2015

I sometimes wonder if I should experiment with both? My long term goal is to get a stable girlfriend but sometimes I think I should try for hookups.

Well that's for you to figure out as that determines how you go about dating.

March 10, 2015

Just out of curiosity what improvements exactly did you make?

When I first signed up for this site I was a whiny grad student who didn't even know the absolute basics of social skills like the importance of smiling when I meet people. Now I'm a successful working man with a stable job, meeting people all the time, keeping lots of friends, and staying relatively good looking at the same time. I went from hermit to almost a social butterfly in the span of a few years. Now I'm working on holding cool conversations.

March 10, 2015

I was told it's very important to leave some stuff to her imagination, as ladies are generally more interested in things that she might earn if she works a little at it, rather than revealing my entire personality in one go. If I were to tell the lady everything about myself in two dates, then it would no longer be interesting. Isn't that what the push-pull tactic is all about?

Not a very helpful article. Mostly because it focuses on young 18-21 year old age ranges, whom do not have much dating experience:

You're doing the dreaded push-pull or hot-cold tactic, which really annoys people. You have to show consistency with your intentions. Showing a little and pulling back can aggravate and confuse the other person, especially at a subconscious level, which affects chemistry. Don't be afraid to show your interest. Start slow and slowly build the intimacy. If a woman shows signs of disinterest toward your affections, don't drag out the encounters. Just tell her you don't see a connection.

March 10, 2015

ok, then I can work both on my attraction skills and sustaining it. what is my mission?

Me in a nutshell is that I am successful in medicine, have tons of hobbies, keep myself healthy, and work out a whole hell of a lot as an Irish dancer and Ballroom dancer on the side (meaning salsa, merengue, waltz, chacha...). I have everything the typical match.com woman could possibly want, even that I am a great cook -

Things going against me maybe: my race (I'm Asian), I don't immediately warm up to a new acquaintance (takes me about 10 minutes), and I am a little clunky in making conversations out of thin air until I know what she likes. I can usually figure it out by 15 mins though.

March 10, 2015

Not a very helpful article. Mostly because it focuses on young 18-21 year old age ranges, whom do not have much dating experience:

I agree, the study is of a younger age group. Yet, through reading various threads in this forum, it appears to be a trend a lot of men never grow out of.

March 10, 2015

You might be onto something. Do not tell your whole history and don't ever tell any of them you were awkward and just now getting social skills. Don't tell it all at once or there's nothing more to know about you. You have to kind of keep the pace of your life active enough that you have new things to talk about to keep from getting boring right away. I have to fight that impulse because I am full of myself. Trust me, no one wants it all dumped out. They want to think there's gold to mine.

March 10, 2015

These women keep going out with him, it computes to me that they must like him in some way but are not rushing to hop in bed.

As for most women hopping in bed on the second date, I have before but that was the exception not the rule for me.

He needs to figure out what the point and objective is for him. Is someone choosing not to have sex on the third date a problem if they like you and keep seeing you? That should be what he needs to figure out. Or is his goal to bed a woman as quickly as possible.

Miss Bee, that's the problem with the mindset of these people putting a number on getting some action in the sack. They are so impatient to get their rocks off, that they conclude that "Well, she's not interested"

They read these "Pick Up Artists Blogs" and see things like some of the advice given and take WAY too much to heart.

Sure, great, she knows within minutes that she'll sleep with him, but doesn't mean that she'll do it on the 2nd date. (What's wrong with some of these dudes, eh? ) They are so hard up to get some action.

March 10, 2015

I was told it's very important to leave some stuff to her imagination, as ladies are generally more interested in things that she might earn if she works a little at it, rather than revealing my entire personality in one go. If I were to tell the lady everything about myself in two dates, then it would no longer be interesting. Isn't that what the push-pull tactic is all about?

What you've just mentioned is mystery. This isn't push-pull, but more about using effective communication in creating a storytelling experience. You mention some facet of your life, but do not go into detail. If the woman asks, you give her a little information, but just enough to get her interested to wanting know more about you. Throw in some teasing and flirting such as "If you want to know more, you'll have to see me again", and you build rapport.

Push-pull is what you mentioned in your previous post, where you flirt, show interest, touch, then pull away, and maybe come off cold. You repeat this method, and it drives many women away.

March 10, 2015

It's true that way more analysis goes into the thinking on this than can be borne out in truth. The truth is a woman might or might not go home with you one night because her toenail polish is chipped or she has a crush on someone she's never met or because you haven't yet said the magic word of whatever her hobby/obsession is: Hello Kitty, Lord of the Rings, whatever. She could have some imaginary scenario in her head that she will know "it's the one" when "it" recreates the scene from Cinderella or True Blood or when her favorite songs comes on by coincidence when she's with you. My examples may be oblique, but my point is there are infinite reasons why a person does what they're going to do at any point. You can try to cover your bases on the most common ones, but there's still a bunch of people way out there in left field with a completely different understanding or expectation of romance than you may have. And with so many guys targeting the younger ladies, the younger they are, the more mysterious and immature x factors they are likely to encounter.

March 10, 2015

I'm pretty confident that I have everything that a woman could want except that I'm not the cutest of the cute. I cook superbly. I'm a successful working man with a stable job, meeting people all the time, keeping lots of friends, and staying relatively good looking at the same time. I went from hermit to almost a social butterfly in the span of a few years. What about my dating conversation skills is lacking?

Also, if a Caucasian lady has their heart set on not dating an Asian man, is there anything I can do to change their mind?

Thanks for the tip on the "Push-pull" vs showing mystery. I will work on that right away.

March 10, 2015

I suppose I could experiment with hookups just to see, but it makes me physically uncomfortable to walk into a bar and chat up people when I can barely hear them above the loud music. I'm kind of curious about what I could get. Where else do people go?

March 12, 2015

You sound really great on paper, OP, but it's impossible to tell why these ladies aren't wanting more intimacy from you. Maybe you seem too eager? Perhaps overly confident? Arrogance is a huge turn off for many women.

When you're having conversations are you just gabbing away or are you making sure to listen and ask the lady questions about her, etc?

From my experience the sexiest men I've met, the ones who I knew I wanted to sleep with, had a confidence about them that just oozed masculinity. They weren't necessarily the best conversationalists or the hottest..they just had this...swagger about them. I know that doesn't help you but that's the best way to describe what sets the men I want to sleep with apart from those that I "friend zone."

I dated this guy once that made me laugh, cooked like a chef, was well-off, was a gentleman and had the best conversations...but lacked sex appeal. He was a good looking guy but I was just not at all sexually attracted to him. We ended up being great friends. He is quite the talker...

I say, try and turn on your sexual charms and engage in meaningless hookups. Maybe that'll somehow ramp up your sexual confidence and, in turn, turn on your sexy vibe.

Good luck.

March 12, 2015

I dated this guy once that made me laugh, cooked like a chef, was well-off, was a gentleman and had the best conversations...but lacked sex appeal.

What do you mean, "lacked sex appeal". You know that's pretty much subjective and what's considered sexy to some, may not be so much to others.

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Had plenty of dates... all of them refused anything more than a kiss.

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