Tomcat33 Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 And this post can apply to both OW and S who end up getting what they wished for... If anyone has been following my situation I have been dating a seperated man who recently flip flopped going back to a marriage that according to him should have been over years ago, he was married for 3 years together for 8 approx. I am now back to dating him since his wife found out that he and I were dating that he was in love with me etc she saw all of our emails... He tried to go back with her out of guilt only to find out two weeks into it that he just could not got through with it. Well now we are together but I can't let go of all the pain he caused me when out of his own desperation to rectify one bad situation with her he dumped me with little explanation to save what he knew could not be saved, or at least to go through the motions. I can't seem to let go of my doubts and the fear that he might flip-flop back again though this time there is talk of divorce according to him, and it's she who is determined to do it so he is more than willing. BUT I feel like things are not quite secure for me yet, and I am afraid that I might not know how to handle the perriod to come, ie. how to be supportive in his time of need when I have my own insecurities playing devil's advocate. I am not an insecure person in relationships by nature but this whole experience has generated many insecurities in me. Does anyone have any words of advice, who has been in this situation and how they handled it?
norajane Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 I think when he "came back" to you, you should have treated him as though it was a brand new relationship...meaning, he needed to win you over, court you again. By welcoming him back, now you feel as though you have swallowed the bitter pill, without any "guarantee" that he's in this with you for the right reasons. You have resentment because he never made it up to you for dumping you unceremoniously, and you have fear because he did leave you once for his wife, and maybe some fear that if she hadn't discovered your affair and be wanting a divorce, he would still be with her trying to make it work. I think honesty is the best policy at this point. Express to him how you are feeling about all this. Express your anger at the break-up if you haven't already, express your resentment for the way he dumped you, express your fears about him flip-flopping, and tell him you need him to show you that you are the one he really wants in his life. If you can be specific about what you need him to do, then tell him. If you need a Hollywood movie-style apology, if you need him to do some major ass-kissing, if you need him to make some changes in his behavior, if you need him to actually file for divorce - tell him what you need and what your expectations are. There is no reason you have to keep that bottled up. If you expect to have a long term relationship with him, honesty about your feelings and needs is paramount. Don't hide your feelings, don't sublimate your needs to his.
Babybird Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 I would be terribly hurt if I had been in that situation. The only thing I can think of is humans hate change. When he decided the R was over with W, and she found out about you, he lost his W. Probably scared him to death. He probably thought what the hell am I doing? Do I really want my marriage to be over? Am I sure? Do I still love her(W)? He went back to make sure....and realized he was right in leaving. Sometimes we have to realize that it, everything, HIM, is not ALL ABOUT US. People have to deal with, rationalize, adjust to, and make sense of their actions and the consequences in their own way. Period.
Author Tomcat33 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 Every single response made so much sense. Thank you for that. A few more details, there are no children only a loveless marriage where two people lead seperate lives and a W who feels she had not been given a fair warning that the marriage was in trouble and H who says he is guilt ridden for not taking action to save the marriage, but justifies his actions because he did not WANT to save the marriage. According to him going back was more to apease her, to let her know that at least he "tried" before he moved on, but his fear that he would lose me for good did lot him go through with this trial (to me it was not a trial it was prolonging the enivitable) but I still wonder if the indecisiveness was not on his part. That's where I am having a hard time trusting though we have spoken a lot in the last few days and according to everything he has told me, he is being VERY open with me now, EVERYONE around him who is close to would tell him "how could you go against your heart simply because you feel guilt about not saving something you didn't really want"and this is what conlficts him deeply. I have expressed to him that I was deeply hurt by his actions that he went about thing very wrong and that he acted selfishly but instead of recognizing this he tells me that he also suffered immensely and that the pain was for us both...and this makes me resent him even more. Because he had control over the situation I didn't. This is more complex than I expected it to be. The thing also is that he asks me "What can I do to make it better?" and I want to say "show me the divorce papers"but to me that seems like I am pushing him and I don't want to nag him at all, on the same token I wish he knew that's what I want. We've only ever discussed it a million times...
Author Tomcat33 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 by the way when she found about us he never lost her, all the contrary she faught to take him back, had him in couples councelling within one day of confronting him, put him in a type of "house-arrest"monitoring his every email taking over his email account and looking at his cellphone for proof that we were not in contact, as per the councellors advice and not once in the two weeks they were working this out did she get mad at him show resentment or anger towards him. That's pretty remarkabkle if you ask me....I on the other had do not have that type of character, where I by I can focus on the duty at hand and hide all my emotions..for me that's impossible..
norajane Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 You're the one who is in control - or you should feel that you are. You have the option of telling him what you need him to do - why can't you do that? I know you want him to just "know" and to just do it, but he's obviously not someone who can manage that. Just be honest and tell him what you want. You have to take the control here to make sure your feelings are properly addressed. I have expressed to him that I was deeply hurt by his actions that he went about thing very wrong and that he acted selfishly but instead of recognizing this he tells me that he also suffered immensely and that the pain was for us both...and this makes me resent him even more This is the crux of it - he doesn't see, doesn't acknowledge, won't accep that he is responsible for your pain. That's why you can't get past it - he ony sees HIS pain, and is oblivious to yours. You have to get your point across more strongly. Like, maybe you don't really want to have anything to do with him until he can acknowledge the damage his indecision has done to you, until he can admit that he did something to hurt you deeply, and that his actions have made it difficult for you to trust. Like, maybe you don't want to have anything to do with him until he can show you that he's not a selfish prick worrying only about himself. If you don't take control over this now, you never will. This will be a harbinger of how the rest of your relationship will go in the future. He will do things to suit himself, things that will hurt you, and you will be left to swallow the bitter pills. Take a good, hard look at why his marriage declined - HE had a lot to do with that. Unless he shows some change, why do you think he's going to be any different with you even if he does divorce his wife to be with you?
lolly Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 omg tomcat33...you know...i've been following your story, and i can identify with it from beginning to end. we've known each other for a year and two months. one day after we had an argument about "us"...i told him that i really love him and want to be with him, but that i couldn't do this anymore. he said he needed time to think about this. i said, fine...have all the time you want...and then you call me and tell me what you decided. and if you decide we can't be together that will be the last time we have contact with each other. he called me the next day....said he told her everything the night before...and that he knows he cannot have his bread buttered both sides. he has to choose. said on the one side was her, her family and his daughter...and on the other side was me and my family. basically, what he said was that he loved me, but he's choosing to stay. i was devestated...didn't take it very well. felt as if i gave my all...and was just shoved aside. like i meant nothing. we tried talking about it, and he declared that he was never fair with her...never gave the marriage a proper chance. all the times he was at home, he would spend the time thinking of me. he was wrong....and one day he was going to be punished. this hurt me even more...but i decided then to do the honourable thing. i stopped all contact with him. that way he had a fair chance of making things work....and i could try and get over it. we didn't speak to each other for about 8 days....then one saturday i run into him and his daughter. and he stops and chats, just about general things. then the monday i get an e-mail from him. so ... i decide ... maybe i can do friends ... so everything is just friendly, then he asks me if i'm ok with things the way they are. i was like...yes i am...you chose....i've made peace with it,that we'll only ever be friends. immediately he sends me this looooooooooooong e-mail...stating that he loves me, and he made a mistake and for the past week all he's done was think of me. and he knows he should be with me....he's just scared of what ppl are going to say. that he knows what is right and wrong, but left his wife for another woman..... basically he told me that he knows that i'm the one he should spend the rest of his life with. he even introduced me to his mom....i know his brothers as well. and then he moved out....and for a couple of days stayed with his parents. but you know...when push came to shove....this was his chance to leave as she told him to go....he DIDN'T. suddenly, when i was upset that she was pretending everything is fine (she knows my sister)....i got "are you happy my marriage is not working out"...i was VERY upset....i mean...of course i wasn't happy about something that will make him miserable. but then again....it was his choice. the last time he chose her i let go. and then suddenly he was VERY confused...said that when we together he's really happy....but when he's alone all these thoughts are going through his mind. he chose once to stay and he was unhappy....what if he chooses me and then he is still unhappy??? i couldn't believe this....so told him then to stay. but he didn't wanna do that either....said...what if he stays...and a year down the line he still misses me???? i didn't know what to do....i felt like i was going insane. so i told him to go back home...not to leave....cause i knew he'd never choose. he'd be miserable with whoever he was with. now at the moment....we are on 6 days no contact. and i feel hurt and used.... reason for no contact....i'm the one who told him that things are never gonna work out....i felt that if he wasn't stringing me along....then he wouldn't agree. but he agreed......and then i was all depressed at home.....didn't realise that my mom called him...and then he calls me telling me that my mom wants to see him, but he's very busy during the week. and the only time he has to spend with his family is sunday. to me it felt as if he made it clear that i'm not family...not even worth a little bit of his time. all my mom wanted to know was what was up between us....why was i so depressed, if we were only friends. anyways...before this we hadn't seen each other for about two weeks already...so this happened on saturday. he told me to call him after i've spoken to my mom. but when i tried, his phone was off....so ja....that just shows what he thought of me. so i didn't try and contact him again. so ja....now it's 6 days no contact. and he didn't even once try and find out if i'm ok...i thought i'd at least have an e-mail from him, on monday...but no....and it hurts....cause i asked him....why did he do this. why didn't he then just let things go the last time when he chose her. why did he have to come back convince me that i was the one he wanted to be with and then just dump me. cause i did tell him that i wouldn't be able to go through it again. he claims it was my choice....but i was like no...if you thought we had a chance, you'd not have agreed with me. like he didn't even fight for us....then he said, yes...we shouldn't involve other ppl, me and him should sort it out. but ja...when i called his phone was off, and he never once tried to contact me... at the moment i've very hurt and confused.....seems like everything he ever said to me was a lie...any opinions will help...right now i just don't know what to think.... tomcat33...when he came back i felt exactly the way you describing now. and all i can say is....if he hasn't officially left.....good chance that he'll start to feel guilty or whatever again....and then end up back there.....and then you end up feeling thousand times worse than before........believe me
Guest Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 You could say that he is playing games with you--telling you to call and then switching phone off. I think he is probably annoyed with you for rocking the boat BUT he is also very confused as to what he wants and he doesn't want to let you go. Otherwise he would say that you should get on with your life and he isn't doing that is he. Some mm just like to be in total control and by not having his phone on, he has taken back some control because he will speak to you when he is good and ready. It is infuriating to say the least. My mm is someone that I have finally decided would not be happy with whatever he has. He would not cal me for days on end and hen call me 15 times in one day when I had my cell phone off because I was visiting a friend. He demanded to know where I was the next day when we spoke, and I thought how selfish and controlling he was. I think his bizare behaviour was also because he knew that decision time was coming and his wife was geting suspicious. When I bumped into him, he went out of his way to be flirty with me and I just didn't react which annoyed him. I had decided that I would never be contented with him, let alone happy. He might panic and return home if he ever left. He said that he would call me and in the old days I would have said "Yeah, please do that would be great" or more to the point we would probably have arranged to see each other the vey next day. But I didn't (and I made an excuse to curtail our conversation) and so he hasn't phoned which is actually a relief. The point I am trying to make is that your mm's actions prove that he is definitely involved with you but he is a flip flopper, not really sure what he wants, and you think he could change his mind at any moment. How can you ever be happy with someone like this. He sounds very insecure himself and he transfers his insecuities on to you. Men like him never think of you and what they are doing to your emotional well being-it is all about them and they like to be in control. They are the ones with the hang ups and problems NOT you. Sometimes men like these are best filed under the "Affair" category and not "lifelong partner" category.
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Tomcat, you have a lot going on there. Lolly brings up some good points about flip-flopping MM and how their guilt and indecision just hurts everyone concerned. I think the fact that (as norajane said in some great posts) your MM isn't acknowledging the pain he's causing you now is an issue you have to sort out. I think she gives some good advice on that. For yourself, and how you can deal with the pain caused to date in the relationship..? I too would like some help on that. I'm getting to the point in our A where it seems likely he might actually leave, and every time it feels like he's on course for that I feel really bad, and I have plenty of conflicting emotions. ONE of which is fear that (as nj said) he's going to continue not realising what pain I've been through and keep acting selfishly and saying 'sorry' afterwards. I can't face a future like that... I'm scared of him leaving in some ways, and that sounds like madness. On a practical note for you Tomcat, have you heard of the book, How To Survive Your Boyfriend's Divorce? I haven't read it myself, but I've seen it recommended here several times and it may have some answers for you.
Guest Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Frannie, I really hope that things work out well for you--you have given me some great advice and I realise that my xmm would probably never be happy with anyone, as he has issues within himself that he needs to address. I actually decided that he doesn't actually like women that much and misses his dad who died suddenly when he was 21 years old and then resented his mother who tried to control him. So, is your mm actually doing anything positive or is he still at the talking stage--big difference as you well know! Don't forget that once before, he was going home to tell his w and then he didn't. Just be prepared for the same thing to happen and, if it does, I hope you will have the strength to walk way. It probably is worrrying for you and a big responsibility if he leaves. However, in your case it seems that he spends a few days at a time with you, so it is not like he is popping in to spned the afternoon with you like most of us put up with! In your case he stays over and you do have an idea of what spending, proper, rea,l time with him is like. However, should he leave, then be prepared to be very tolerant and patient as his family issues will affect your relationship with him. At the moment, you accept that he spends weekends with his family because that is his primary relationship, but you will expect it to be different when he is living with you and conflicts could arise. The meek wife might turn into an embittered bs. I am sure you and he will sort these issues as they arise, but just flagging up that your affair is far different to a full time relationship. Good luck and keep us posted as and when significant developments occur (which I hope they will)
OldEurope Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Here is the thing: If you want this man in your life and he comes through 100% you MUST bury the hatchet 100%. Whatever "you have been through" you chose to go through by being in such a relationship. You must take a deep breath, and think "Big Picture". As far as I can surmise, the long-lasting marriages, built on a foundation of love but going through their own ups and downs, maintain that kind of outlook. No grudges and resentments that are going to eat through everything. You know and your knew that this kind of relationship is not the "normal" sort and you cannot expect linear, unambigious behavior (let alone in any relationship). If he takes the action to divorce his wife to be with and marry you how much more do you expect from a man? Is that not enough for you to understand how far he has come and he has traveled a difficult road for the ultimate sake of a future with you? At such a point you have to Rise Above It All and focus, as I said, on what is important. Away with the resentments, pettiness, hurt feelings, little-girlness. If you do not, you will kill your relationship, period. I would advise you to look at some of the posts of Lady Jane14 over on the Separation and Divorce section. She saved her 20+ year marriage which she believed in by administering (if that is the word) this kind of mindset. She more or less in one felled swoop made the decision to let bygones be bygones. She "simply" said: its the marriage I want, the future I want, the rest I now reject. Its not that she probably does not reflect on this or that hurt but the point is, that hurt, that past did not take over her outlook. Very important here. So first you must decide IF you want this man or not. IF you want him, then you want him 100% and you must set aside some of these gripes because in an OW situation you know that they are an inevitable part of the package. I am not saying that you cannot say at some point, "You know, when you said X Y Z to me, it hurt. Was it the stress of the time or is that something you fundamentally believe?" You CAN say things or ask things but in a GENLTE manner. Once you learn this, it will become a practice in your marriage and it is a very very smart way to be OE
silktricks Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 TC, is it possible for you to say to him at this point that you need some time away. You need to recuperate from the pain of the relationship and his actions. You aren't saying good-bye, just so-long for now. Let him know that when his affairs (pun intended) are in order, that you'd very much like to see him, but that as things stand, you are afraid that you'll get hurt again. As a previous poster said, it is very disconcerting that he cannot see your pain, but only his own. Since he is in the middle of a lot of turmoil, perhaps that is a natural circumstance, but nonetheless, it adds to your pain. Since he cannot see your pain (and that the confusion of this relationship is the cause of it), that increases your need to take care of yourself. You simply cannot at this point rely on him to look out for your best interests. He is in the middle of trying to decide his own best interests, and understandably is going to be fairly incapable of watching out for you as well. If you are able to let him know that you love him, and if you are still available will be interested in seeing him once again when he is completely free, that would be the course that would probably provide you the most happiness and the least confusion. Best wishes.
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 So first you must decide IF you want this man or not. IF you want him, then you want him 100% and you must set aside some of these gripes because in an OW situation you know that they are an inevitable part of the package. Oh, OE, that was such a great post. And of course you're right in so much of this. Although I would say that I think that a man needs to divorce because he thinks it's right for him, rather than 'doing it for the OW'... surely that can only lead to disaster..? I do think there's a need for recouperation and healing however for the OW, and I suppose that during the D is the best time for that..? How did you cope..? From what I recall of your earlier posts you were full of determination, sailing in Scotland and telling him you were off unless he sorted out his life... that's just not where I am now. I can't pull that off because I'm not you, and he knows me and knows such antics would be an act. But I have told him I'm not going to continue the affair any longer, and he knows I'm serious about that. I think your comments about LJ and her deciding that this is what she wanted, and head down and all that are appropriate to an extent, but again: she was married to that man, as OW, we are not in the same situation. A WS will have acknowledged the hurt he's caused, the damage he's done, the mistake he made. He will be contrite, wanting to change, providing all the reason a BS needs to accept his new behaviour. Of course the BS needs that far more than an OW does... and yet, the hurt is still there, in various forms, for various reasons. Yes, it is part and parcel of being an OW, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I didn't go into a R with him believing that he'd be still messing around wondering about it 3 years later. Yes, I bought into it, and I accept that. But he still let me down numerous times during this. To deny that and think that it's something I can just deal with in some way that doesn't involve time and thought and something or other from him... it's just not possible. It needs to be worked on. And he knows that, I'm sure.
norajane Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Here is the thing: If you want this man in your life and he comes through 100% you MUST bury the hatchet 100%. No grudges and resentments that are going to eat through everything. The thing is, if he never acknowledges her pain, and that he caused it by dumping her without notice and going back to his wife, and that he hurt her in the first place, I don't know that it really is possible to let go of the hurt. The resentment will build if he won't admit he did any wrong. An apology that shows he recongnizes her feelings would go a long way, I think. If he can't admit that he did something hurtful, then he can't see beyond himself, and it's a sign that he very well could do other things to hurt her in the future and won't even acknowledge he did them. Burying the hatchet is good advice, but where is his demonstration of good faith?
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Frannie, I really hope that things work out well for you--you have given me some great advice and I realise that my xmm would probably never be happy with anyone, as he has issues within himself that he needs to address. I actually decided that he doesn't actually like women that much and misses his dad who died suddenly when he was 21 years old and then resented his mother who tried to control him. So, is your mm actually doing anything positive or is he still at the talking stage--big difference as you well know! Don't forget that once before, he was going home to tell his w and then he didn't. Just be prepared for the same thing to happen and, if it does, I hope you will have the strength to walk way. It probably is worrrying for you and a big responsibility if he leaves. However, in your case it seems that he spends a few days at a time with you, so it is not like he is popping in to spned the afternoon with you like most of us put up with! In your case he stays over and you do have an idea of what spending, proper, rea,l time with him is like. However, should he leave, then be prepared to be very tolerant and patient as his family issues will affect your relationship with him. At the moment, you accept that he spends weekends with his family because that is his primary relationship, but you will expect it to be different when he is living with you and conflicts could arise. The meek wife might turn into an embittered bs. I am sure you and he will sort these issues as they arise, but just flagging up that your affair is far different to a full time relationship. Good luck and keep us posted as and when significant developments occur (which I hope they will) Hey, guest... did you forget to sign in or don't I know you..? As far as him doing anything. I got annoyed with all the talking... we both filled out a 'pros' 'cons' and 'challenges' thing for either of our two remaining options once I'd said no more affair... i.e. he leaves her or we part. We did talk about that a while, but... well as I say, I got annoyed with the talking and said he needs to actually get on with things himself now. No more talking. So... he's sorting out his finances, looking for a place to live, and will be shortly consulting a solicitor. Of course none of that means he's going to actually go through it, but at least he's acting, and thinking himself about solutions ('challenges') rather than 'cons'. So... it's all up to him now on that score. It is a big worry for me if he leaves. Because yes, we have spent a whole load of time together, more or less like people living together... we know how it would be. Even so, I can't promise him anything about how it will all work out between us. If he leaves it has to be for him, and because he feels it's the right thing to do all round. I will understand if he can't do that. It's a tremendous risk to take for his own happiness... and of couse no one wants to wind up spending years in a one-bedroom apartment seeing your kids every other week when you could have stayed at home. Just my pragmatic head there. It's a risk... does he think it's one worth taking when I can guarantee nothing..? What about his children..? So much hurt and upset and change and for what..? So some adults may get a chance of happiness..? My heart jumps around at the thought of it. I don't want that kind of guilt on my hands. As for your last point. Well made, and of course I understand. I may even see him less in the next year (if he leaves) than I have done in this past six. That's just the way it has to be. His kids have to be catered for in the right way, and we both accept that. It's the very very least we can do if he's to leave, and THEY are the most important people to consider in this.
puddleofmud Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Hang in there and do what is best for YOU--as the ball is in your court! You don't have to put up with anything that doesn't feel "right" and at this juncture you've every right to communicate (or not!) how you feel and when and if you are ready. I agree with the poster that said maybe you should just take some time for yourself with out all this weighing so heavily upon you. HE took some time to figure out what was best for HIM so why should you not have the same? Be patient with your heart and let your head talk for a while and don't feel badly about your mis-givings...
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 So, is your mm actually doing anything positive or is he still at the talking stage--big difference as you well know! Don't forget that once before, he was going home to tell his w and then he didn't. Just be prepared for the same thing to happen and, if it does, I hope you will have the strength to walk way. Ooops, didn't really answer this bit. I've already told him I won't be continuing an affair with him, and I have no doubt that I will stick to that. I'm tired of it, and it's just over. He's been going to tell her at least three times in the past. This last time he said he'd be out by the end of March. Then he went back to tell her end of Jan (as a precursor to moving out) and didn't do it that weekend. He thought it was a disaster... I thought... well... it's now or never... if you're going to do it maybe there's a different way. IF this is going to end, and it is, then I need to know that he did everything he could, and so did I. Only then will I be able to walk away and not have any hope or desire left for it to happen. I did NC all last summer. What killed me was the hope. I need to know there is none left at all. Then I will walk away. So, we're doing two processes at once... he's making moves towards leaving, and I'm making moves towards ending it with him. One of those will happen. I don't know which, but either is better than being in an affair.
puddleofmud Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Please forgive my hi-jack of thread: Frannie, this is the first I have heard of this and wish to express to you, personally, that I am terribly sorry that things are in this state for you. As long as this is what YOU have chosen or anything you would choose, please know that you have my personal support. Bless you and know that you are in my heart, as always!
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Please forgive my hi-jack of thread: Frannie, this is the first I have heard of this and wish to express to you, personally, that I am terribly sorry that things are in this state for you. As long as this is what YOU have chosen or anything you would choose, please know that you have my personal support. Bless you and know that you are in my heart, as always! I'm heartily sorry for the thread jack too... Not sure why you're so sorry that I've decided to end the affair and am happy and OK with that though... or am I not understanding..? My MM had a thread on Sep and Divorce a few weeks ago, after getting some responses on which we both thought that ending the affair was the best thing for all... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t111068/
frannie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Oh ... I suppose it is sad... and yes it is... but for heaven's sake... I have to do what's right for me. And I don't think that's sad... that's a good result. We can't just keep on doing this 'for the children' because, as everyone on his thread said... that's not right, not considering everything we've both said. I have no doubt in my heart that if he doesn't leave, then the best thing for everyone is that I leave the affair. So... that's what I'm going to do. Because that is what will make me happy. And I'm so tired of being unhappy.
GreenEyedLady Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Oh ... I suppose it is sad... and yes it is... but for heaven's sake... I have to do what's right for me. And I don't think that's sad... that's a good result. ... that's not right, not considering everything we've both said. I have no doubt in my heart that if he doesn't leave, then the best thing for everyone is that I leave the affair...that's what I'm going to do. Because that is what will make me happy. And I'm so tired of being unhappy. Right there with ya! I hope it works out for you Frannie, but if not, we're here for you and we know what it's like... Breaking up with MM has opened up infinite possibilities...
OldEurope Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 Although I would say that I think that a man needs to divorce because he thinks it's right for him, rather than 'doing it for the OW'... surely that can only lead to disaster..? Why shouldn't they be one in the same? The "for him" is inseparable from the fact that he is also in love, totally and wholly, with someone else. The love for the OW--that is a "part" of him, that is the "him". Yes, yes I understand what people mean when they say one must be able to divorce even if there is no OW in the picture. But surely I do find love--true, tested, tried and true love-- in and of itself a legitimate reason. I do think there's a need for recouperation and healing however for the OW, and I suppose that during the D is the best time for that..? How did you cope..? From what I recall of your earlier posts you were full of determination, sailing in Scotland and telling him you were off unless he sorted out his life... that's just not where I am now. I can't pull that off because I'm not you, and he knows me and knows such antics would be an act. But I have told him I'm not going to continue the affair any longer, and he knows I'm serious about that. There is another discussion going on on the forum about the "point" of NC and it is a good one. In my case, I simply considered everything "over". I just adopted the attitude of mind that this was not going to happen. I had an interesting advantage: although at that time we parted in a civil manner and I perkily said Ciao, I am going to sail!....There was so much annoying waffling going on in his behavior up to that point that the memory of that was enough to "detach" me. Even though I missed him horribly (on a boat or not!) that little voice reminding me of Why I Had To Do This In The First Place was a strong voice. When you feel you are going to cave in...Quick--remember your last fight, your anger or frustration and picture that starting up again..Because it WILL until he has taken 100% action to be with you. No, Frannie, I do not believe that ANY gray areas may be permitted. Emergenices, chit chat, little love notes..NO. It feeds hope and hope is particularly potent where a frail ego(the OWs) is concerned. I think your comments about LJ and her deciding that this is what she wanted, and head down and all that are appropriate to an extent, but again: she was married to that man, as OW, we are not in the same situation. A WS will have acknowledged the hurt he's caused, the damage he's done, the mistake he made. He will be contrite, wanting to change, providing all the reason a BS needs to accept his new behaviour. Of course the BS needs that far more than an OW does... and yet, the hurt is still there, in various forms, for various reasons. I acted, always, in my OW era as the numero uno treat-me-as-if-we have-known-each-other-forever. I did. It was what gave our relationship its seriousness from the get go. I said "this is about divorce or no divorce", right away. He told his wife, in my case, rather immediately (not flaunting, but saying that their m had come to a wholesale breakdown and here was the consequence and now what comes next). Anyway, back to your point, any hurt that he caused me along the way, I took as part of the big picture package BUT I also made him apologize and "make up" for certain areas (a missed time together for example), really with my foot down. These were part of my tests to see his reactions. HOWEVER....When he filed for divorce and subsequently we married I was 100% "over" my resentments (and I had mine, to be sure). I just did away with them, for the sake of the action he had taken. That said enough. Yes, it is part and parcel of being an OW, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I didn't go into a R with him believing that he'd be still messing around wondering about it 3 years later. Yes, I bought into it, and I accept that. But he still let me down numerous times during this. To deny that and think that it's something I can just deal with in some way that doesn't involve time and thought and something or other from him... it's just not possible. Remember...Acceptance is APPROVAL. If and when you "take him back" or have taken him back, while intellectually he knows where he has done wrong, subconsciously he is "hearing" something else. OW MUST be very aware of this. OW, no matter their "protests" send the subconscious message that they accept what is going on, let downs and all, because OW take them back. So in his mind--the deeper, darker chambers of his mind--it is "okay" what he does, even if "rationally" he says he has been Mr. Not-Nice guy. Have to be firm here. OE
frannie Posted February 27, 2007 Posted February 27, 2007 There is another discussion going on on the forum about the "point" of NC and it is a good one. In my case, I simply considered everything "over". I just adopted the attitude of mind that this was not going to happen. I had an interesting advantage: although at that time we parted in a civil manner and I perkily said Ciao, I am going to sail!....There was so much annoying waffling going on in his behavior up to that point that the memory of that was enough to "detach" me. Even though I missed him horribly (on a boat or not!) that little voice reminding me of Why I Had To Do This In The First Place was a strong voice. When you feel you are going to cave in...Quick--remember your last fight, your anger or frustration and picture that starting up again..Because it WILL until he has taken 100% action to be with you. No, Frannie, I do not believe that ANY gray areas may be permitted. Emergenices, chit chat, little love notes..NO. It feeds hope and hope is particularly potent where a frail ego(the OWs) is concerned. --- Remember...Acceptance is APPROVAL. If and when you "take him back" or have taken him back, while intellectually he knows where he has done wrong, subconsciously he is "hearing" something else. OW MUST be very aware of this. OW, no matter their "protests" send the subconscious message that they accept what is going on, let downs and all, because OW take them back. So in his mind--the deeper, darker chambers of his mind--it is "okay" what he does, even if "rationally" he says he has been Mr. Not-Nice guy. Have to be firm here. Thanks OE. I've always said to him that I'm not prepared to just be the OW. We've always been talking about divorce. But you're right... at times I've just tried to give him more time, accept waiting... and that's sent the wrong signal to him and I know it. Each time he couldn't do it I've said OK then, let's look at it another way, try another approach, and it's just handing him another get-out. It's so hard to be firm, however, when it's absolutely evident that many people take a long, long time to divorce... it's just not a drop-of-the-hat decision. And my only choice is to leave this relationship... if I leave too soon I fear he'll do nothing... if I hang on... I'm sending him the signal that it's ok to delay. I go round and round this in my mind, and there doesn't seem to be a good, solid approach I can take. I don't think I can walk away until I'm absolutely sure he's not going to do anything. Because I did that last summer... 4 months of NC and he did nothing whatever. He's not likely to leap up into activity if I end it and go NC. And if I end it, I need all hope to be gone: I can't 'adopt a mindset that it's over'... my mind WILL find some excuse, reason, angle to take that says maybe, maybe, maybe... I need to know that he looked into every angle of leaving and decided, once and for all 'no, I can't do it'... and then I can walk away. At least, that's the only thing that makes sense at the moment. If he says 'no' this time, then it's over, for good, forever.
Recommended Posts