Ripples Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 So, been with my partner (I'll call him G) for four and a half years. I found out about eight months ago that he'd been in contact with several women over the first three years of our relationship, two of them he'd had sex with, several he'd dated. I don't wholly blame G for seeing other women, I wasn't providing for his needs, I was pretty aggressive and unreasonable. However, I don't excuse him. In the first three years, G did a couple of other things that were pretty bad: I had to move house and he'd asked me to move in with him. Three days before I was due to move, he changed his mind. G's mother died in 2005 and I wasn't allowed to attend the funeral as his ex-wife would be there and he was worried that I may say something nasty to her. Christmas of 2005 I thought we'd come to an understanding that I would be spending Christmas with him and his family (son, father, brother). Two days before he told me I couldn't be with him as it was the first Christmas without his mother and he wanted it to be just family. I spent Christmas, Boxing Day and New Years Eve alone - I didn't arrange anything else in the hope that he'd change his mind. He's also lied about many, many things. Principally because he felt I'd react badly. He's justified in thinking that. Ok, since finding out, I've been in therapy. My therapist is of the mind we need to split up and, infact, we're not together. At least, not properly. In the last six months, G has changed a lot. He's now generous with his time and his efforts. He listens more and he's more prepared to accept that he's not always right. He's also desperately sorry for what he's done and has made (is making) huge efforts to reassure me. I feel very loved by him. However, I can't get over it. I'm so unwilling to let this go and every time he's not perfect I feel hurt. I feel I don't want to be with someone who's cheated on me, that I deserve better than that, that I'd be letting myself down to stick it out with him. But I love him. Now things are so different between us. If only it could have been this way from the start... Please would you help me? I really need it. Thank you.
lovelorcet Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 He cheated on you and among other things I think the christmas alone was a pretty dirty thing to do... First off I think you need to find out if you can really trust this person... -he cheated -he has let you down at the last minute a few times Second... Do you really think that you will be able to deal with these issues and not continually build resentment towards him?
Author Ripples Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 Ok, I honestly feel that he wouldn't let me down again like he has done in the past, or cheat again. I believe that he's learnt by those mistakes and is desperately sorry for them. The resentment... I don't know how to let go of it and not let it build.
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 I don't know if you'll be able to work through this or not. Time will tell. You two could try counselling and see how that goes.
Author Ripples Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 Um, right. I guess I was really after some advice for me, personally - something concrete that I could do to help me with my resentment and distrust issues.
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Write out all the things you resent about him. Go to counselling together. Talk to him about how you feel. That you love him, but are having a hard time getting past what he did. He can help you through this too, by showing you he has changed. IN action, not just words...It's easy to say I've changed...It's the doing that is harder. He should also get one on one counselling, he has his own issues, why he cheated, lied...
Art_Critic Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Forgiving someone is a decision.. but in order for it to happen you have to stop blaming yourself and forgive yourself. I know easier said than done.... I have always been the forgiving type but in order for me to forgive someone I must look into my part in it and make peace with myself first.. otherwise resentment is all I could give someone. Remember that you are choosing to not forgive him.
a4a Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Um, right. I guess I was really after some advice for me, personally - something concrete that I could do to help me with my resentment and distrust issues. I always think it is neat how we put the responsibility of others misdeeds on our own shoulders. You have issues? No you have valid reason not to trust him and to resent him. When the monkey gets shocked when it tries to grab the cookie...... you cannot blame the monkey for not wanting to risk another shock. He needs to prove it. You need to decide if you want to let him. I would not get over 3 years of cheating, lies, ...... not from someone who was supposed to be my friend, lover, and partner. One mistake maybe, but far too much water under the bridge, and no way in hell would I be calling it MY ISSUES.
Art_Critic Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 No you have valid reason not to trust him and to resent him. Sure the reason is valid to not trust him and resent him but if a person carries this mistrust and resentment too far and too long then they only hurt themselves in the end.. Letting go to the resentment is a choice.. the mistrust is something that has to be rebuilt over time..
a4a Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Sure the reason is valid to not trust him and resent him but if a person carries this mistrust and resentment too far and too long then they only hurt themselves in the end.. Letting go to the resentment is a choice.. the mistrust is something that has to be rebuilt over time.. In many cases you can also save yourself much future pain. I don't resent people who have done me wrong in the past. Once you remove yourself you will find it much easier to forgive. IMHO...... not worth it. Way too much deception from one person to be bothered to give them another chance........ as for forgiving them, sure once you are on safe ground away from them.
Mz. Pixie Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Forgiving someone is a decision.. but in order for it to happen you have to stop blaming yourself and forgive yourself. I know easier said than done.... I have always been the forgiving type but in order for me to forgive someone I must look into my part in it and make peace with myself first.. otherwise resentment is all I could give someone. Remember that you are choosing to not forgive him. Really, Ripples, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Just because you forgive him doesn't mean that he doesn't have to do the work to make things better- it also doesn't mean that you are going to blindly trust him. In reality, he's done things that make you not trust him so he should fully expect that your forgiveness doesn't mean he's regained your trust. It's just that you're forgiving him for what he's done. The old saying is true- you can forgive but not forget. If you want to forgive him then start towards making a positive change in that area. I dunno though three years of cheating wouldn't be something I could put up with.
Author Ripples Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 Write out all the things you resent about him. Go to counselling together. Talk to him about how you feel. That you love him, but are having a hard time getting past what he did. He can help you through this too, by showing you he has changed. IN action, not just words...It's easy to say I've changed...It's the doing that is harder. He should also get one on one counselling, he has his own issues, why he cheated, lied... I didn't make myself clear. In the last six months, G has bent over backwards to put things right. He really has changed. I've asked him to go to counselling with me, he went from "No way" to "Maybe". I'll ask him again, hopefully this time it'll be a "Yes." Forgiving someone is a decision.. but in order for it to happen you have to stop blaming yourself and forgive yourself. I know easier said than done.... I have always been the forgiving type but in order for me to forgive someone I must look into my part in it and make peace with myself first.. otherwise resentment is all I could give someone. Remember that you are choosing to not forgive him. Right, a decision. I'm not sure I'm strong enough nor do I know how to get strong enough. I take on board what you say about forgiving myself, I thought I had, to tell the truth. Could it be turned around so by forgiving myself it actually makes its harder to forgive the other? Oh, and by the way, we're not married, he hasn't committed to me, we aren't and weren't living together even. So doesn't that have a bearing on the affairs? Mz Pixie, what would be a way to make a positive change? Oh, and thank you all so much for the replies
Art_Critic Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Could it be turned around so by forgiving myself it actually makes its harder to forgive the other? Maybe there is just too much stuff to forgive and forget.. I think there is a limit that once the limit is reached that is easier or healthier for us to just move on rather than expel the heart and energy it would take to repair the damage. of course that limit is different for each person Why are you still with him ? You must think that it is all worth it.. right ?.. maybe focus on the positives of your relationship instead of the past negatives..
Ladyjane14 Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 In the last six months, G has changed a lot. He's now generous with his time and his efforts. He listens more and he's more prepared to accept that he's not always right. He's also desperately sorry for what he's done and has made (is making) huge efforts to reassure me. I feel very loved by him. However, I can't get over it. I'm so unwilling to let this go and every time he's not perfect I feel hurt. I feel I don't want to be with someone who's cheated on me, that I deserve better than that, that I'd be letting myself down to stick it out with him. But I love him. Now things are so different between us. If only it could have been this way from the start... You and I have posted back and forth about 'forgiveness' quite a bit, Ripples. So, I'm not going to bore you by rehashing. But I want you to take a look at the parts of your post that are high-lighted above, especially the part in bold. Can you identify your "stinking-thinker"??? You know... she is not content to allow you to blindly follow through on your choices. She's insecure. She's afraid. She doesn't trust YOU to take care of her. Talk to her. If you are CERTAIN that this guy is what you want....debate her point for point: If she says, "He might cheat on us again". You tell her, " Yes, he might, but so might any NEW guy that we meet. And if he does cheat again, we will handle it because we have grown stronger and we have better tools." If she says, "He doesn't deserve to be with us because he's a flawed person." You ask her, "But who is perfect? Who cannot be redeemed?" And so on. If you learn to identify her "voice" quickly, whenever you hit a rough patch you'll find yourself able to deal with her before she has a full-on hissy fit. Your "stinking-thinker" has reservations about all this, Ripples. She's there to protect you afterall. And if she can WIN this debate, then guess what? ... She's right and he's not the guy for you.
Mz. Pixie Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Mz Pixie, what would be a way to make a positive change? WWIU had some good ideas in writing things down to get them out. Ladyjane also said it well "He could cheat on us again" "Yes, he could but so could any other new guy in the future" (which is true) In my case with my mother who was abusive to me I learned I had to forgive her to set myself free from that. Because as long as I didn't forgive her- she had the power over me. And I really really didn't want her to have any power over me! If you really want to forgive this guy, make a decision to do so. Then when you start thinking about the past- just put it behind you and don't dwell on it. Focus on moving forward to the future in a positive manner. That is only if you think you can forgive him! As I said before I wouldn't be able to do it.
luvstarved Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Ripples, I have a question that might be stupid...but since I don't know the answer from the preceding posts...I'll ask anyway... YOu said that you are not even living together, etc. I am just wondering at what point in seeing each other did the "declaration of exclusivity" occur. I would presume that it would certainly have happened within the first three years of a relationship, but it isn't clear from your description. I know that after I'd been seeing my husband for a couple of months, I asked for the exclusivity. Up until then, I don't think but I don't know whether he might have seen other people and don't feel it is really my business. I know that to some it might seem a fine point but to me there is a significant difference and for something to really be called cheating has to imply that some promise was broken and I was just wondering about that... The other point I would like to bring up is this. You said that he cheated and lied to you many many times but you also said that he has GENUINELY changed. I would argue that if he TRULY has changed then he is not in that case TRULY the person who cheated on and lied to you. If you can look at it that way and believe in your heart that it was in essence a different person in the same body who wronged you, then that would be a big step toward forgiveness. If you cannot fully accept that notion, then perhaps you are not as convinced as you would like to be...and if that is the case, you would probably do best to cut your losses and move on. My own experience is that people indeed can make a profound and lasting change. But it ain't easy, and it ain't often and the odds are against it. You need to have a lot of faith in him for this to work. Do you have that faith?
Author Ripples Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 Guys you are all so good! Thank you so much! Maybe there is just too much stuff to forgive and forget.. I think there is a limit that once the limit is reached that is easier or healthier for us to just move on rather than expel the heart and energy it would take to repair the damage. of course that limit is different for each person Why are you still with him ? You must think that it is all worth it.. right ?.. maybe focus on the positives of your relationship instead of the past negatives.. Right, you're so right. Yes, I do think its all worth it. Maybe I'm feeling so confused about it all because I have reached my forgiveness limit but like luvstarved says, he's not the same person, sooooo.... you get the point Thank you AC. You and I have posted back and forth about 'forgiveness' quite a bit, Ripples. So, I'm not going to bore you by rehashing. But I want you to take a look at the parts of your post that are high-lighted above, especially the part in bold. Can you identify your "stinking-thinker"??? You know... she is not content to allow you to blindly follow through on your choices. She's insecure. She's afraid. She doesn't trust YOU to take care of her. Talk to her. If you are CERTAIN that this guy is what you want....debate her point for point: If she says, "He might cheat on us again". You tell her, " Yes, he might, but so might any NEW guy that we meet. And if he does cheat again, we will handle it because we have grown stronger and we have better tools." If she says, "He doesn't deserve to be with us because he's a flawed person." You ask her, "But who is perfect? Who cannot be redeemed?" And so on. If you learn to identify her "voice" quickly, whenever you hit a rough patch you'll find yourself able to deal with her before she has a full-on hissy fit. Your "stinking-thinker" has reservations about all this, Ripples. She's there to protect you afterall. And if she can WIN this debate, then guess what? ... She's right and he's not the guy for you. LJ, I absolutely love that you're on LS and that you'll give me advice. Yes to absolutely everything you've said. I've slowed down on the CBT thing, I'll revist it. The way you describe the 'stinking thinker' is so good, it clarifies so much. That forgiveness thing? You can bang on about that as much as you're able and would like. I need everything spelling out to me time and again. I'll make a start with that 'stinking thinking' and get to grips with her. WWIU had some good ideas in writing things down to get them out. Ladyjane also said it well "He could cheat on us again" "Yes, he could but so could any other new guy in the future" (which is true) In my case with my mother who was abusive to me I learned I had to forgive her to set myself free from that. Because as long as I didn't forgive her- she had the power over me. And I really really didn't want her to have any power over me! If you really want to forgive this guy, make a decision to do so. Then when you start thinking about the past- just put it behind you and don't dwell on it. Focus on moving forward to the future in a positive manner. That is only if you think you can forgive him! As I said before I wouldn't be able to do it. Thank you so much MP, that step by step spelling out to me is so good. Focus focus focus. Geez, I hope you and everyone else on this thread answers any other posts I make when I get stuck. Ripples, I have a question that might be stupid...but since I don't know the answer from the preceding posts...I'll ask anyway... YOu said that you are not even living together, etc. I am just wondering at what point in seeing each other did the "declaration of exclusivity" occur. I would presume that it would certainly have happened within the first three years of a relationship, but it isn't clear from your description. I know that after I'd been seeing my husband for a couple of months, I asked for the exclusivity. Up until then, I don't think but I don't know whether he might have seen other people and don't feel it is really my business. I know that to some it might seem a fine point but to me there is a significant difference and for something to really be called cheating has to imply that some promise was broken and I was just wondering about that... The other point I would like to bring up is this. You said that he cheated and lied to you many many times but you also said that he has GENUINELY changed. I would argue that if he TRULY has changed then he is not in that case TRULY the person who cheated on and lied to you. If you can look at it that way and believe in your heart that it was in essence a different person in the same body who wronged you, then that would be a big step toward forgiveness. If you cannot fully accept that notion, then perhaps you are not as convinced as you would like to be...and if that is the case, you would probably do best to cut your losses and move on. My own experience is that people indeed can make a profound and lasting change. But it ain't easy, and it ain't often and the odds are against it. You need to have a lot of faith in him for this to work. Do you have that faith? Luvstarved, you've hit on something there. We never had the exclusivity talk, but it was implied by the fact that we were having sex and also because he not only didn't tell me he was seeking other women, but he knew that it was the wrong thing to do. Having said all that, he knew damn well I was expecting exclusivity, but otherwise we were never on the same page as far as where the relationship was at. It's hard to feel adamant that what he did was unforgiveable when we aren't married and that commitment wasn't set in stone. And yes, you've clarified what I've been thinking about him having changed and therefore not the same person that cheated on me. That's very true and really helps. Thank you all so much. I'm going to be rereading this thread a lot you've all said something that has struck a real chord and given me things to work on. I'm not at a loose end now. Thank you!
bluetuesday Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 i wanted to add something about what it takes for a person to change. to go from the person you describe - a selfish, inconsiderate cheat and liar - to a man who is honourable, faithful and considerate would take a pretty fundamental life shift and that is almost always caused by the person going through some sort of crisis or self-realisation. being found out or the threat of losing you is not enough. he knew he risked those things before and it didn't stop him. you don't mention why G has changed, but i would suggest you look for the reason. if you trust the reason, you might have found a way to begin to forgive him. your forgiveness would then have a basis. if there seems to be no fundamental reason for the change, you have to question whether it might not be genuine. six months of being nice is a drop in the ocean when he's been lying for years. you should also consider that your lack of willingness to forgive is your instinct telling you why you shouldn't. i wonder if you trust enough that he has changed. if you had total trust - instead of just hope - i don't think you'd risk your future happiness by not forgiving. it seems to me that what you are asking for is NOT how to forgive, it's how to ignore the instinct that is telling you this man has the capacity to be selfish, unfaithful and dismissive of your feelings. yes, other people have that capacity too and could hurt you in the future. this man has not only shown you he has the capacity, but the willingness. there is a reason people lie, and when the lie is to cover their selfishness, the reason for the lie is NEVER to protect the other person, it is always to protect themselves.
Author Ripples Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 I'm grateful for your comment, BT. Even if its not what I think I want to hear There were three things that happened to G that I believe made him reevaluate his life and what he was doing to me. 1. I went on expedition for a month to Africa beginning of last year. It was not only incredibly tough physically, it was incredibly tough mentally. Also I had no contact with anyone outside the group doing the expedition. G missed me, more than he'd thought he would and that, together with knowing I was doing something extraordinary made him feel I am a pretty special person to him. 2. When D day arrived, I handled it in a way that showed him not only that I can be gracious and retain my dignity under stress, but also that his having affairs hurt me more than he thought it would have. He believed that I would go absolutely ballistic and do all sorts of things to 'get him back'. When I didn't do that he realised I wasn't the person he feared I was. 3. G turned 50 in 2006, we both feel that that was a pretty major life crisis for him. So, in conclusion I believe that he has had enough demonstrations from me that have made him realise I'm the woman he loves and wants and they've been enough of a motivation for him to change. Turning 50, along with other things, has also made him realise that there is a point of no return and sometimes you have to make a decision and stick with it. Having said all that, yes, you may well be right that my instinct is telling me not to forgive and it's bang on correct. I believe I need to do as LJ suggested and really examine and challenge my thoughts when they occur. I'm afraid I differe with you about six months being a drop in the ocean. I tend to think that six months is a pretty long time to sustain such a change, even when compared to three years of lying. Also, I should have said from the start, G stopped the affairs just before I went on the expedition. I found out about them six months later. I know the timings are pretty accurate as I've spoken with the women involved. Anyway BT, many thanks, you've given me more thoughts on the matter.
Mz. Pixie Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 G is 50??? And you're ?????? I would think by 50 perhaps some of this stuff would be out of his system!
Author Ripples Posted February 23, 2007 Author Posted February 23, 2007 I'm 36 Yeah, you'd think at 50 he'd be a little more sensible I guess there's a lot of factors at play here. He's been married before and had several long term relationships, the majority with women older than him. Infact the woman he had the longest affair for was 57. Also, he's a pretty successful business man and has tended towards "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing". He's also treated relationships like they're businesses, and consequently, I think, emotions are not something that he can handle very easily. Also, I think as a result of his success, he's had the attitude of "Well, I've made the money, I can provide all the material stuff, why should I have to bother with this emotional nonsense?" I'm exaggerating a bit here, he's not quite as bad as that and in the last year he's altered those attitudes a lot. For example, he now even instigates conversations that are potentially emotionally fraught. He actually asks me questions about how I feel and what makes me feel that way. So....
silktricks Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 I'm 36 Yeah, you'd think at 50 he'd be a little more sensible Well, I sure wouldn't go that far. 50 seems to be about the age when men who are otherwise fairly sane all of a sudden go nutso. I guess there's a lot of factors at play here. He's been married before and had several long term relationships, the majority with women older than him. Infact the woman he had the longest affair for was 57. Also, he's a pretty successful business man and has tended towards "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing". He's also treated relationships like they're businesses, and consequently, I think, emotions are not something that he can handle very easily. Also, I think as a result of his success, he's had the attitude of "Well, I've made the money, I can provide all the material stuff, why should I have to bother with this emotional nonsense?" I'm exaggerating a bit here, he's not quite as bad as that and in the last year he's altered those attitudes a lot. For example, he now even instigates conversations that are potentially emotionally fraught. He actually asks me questions about how I feel and what makes me feel that way. So.... However, if his entire life has been the way that he was for the first 3 years of your relationship, and the last six months have been different, you could be treading on fairly dangerous ground. See the bolded line above? This seems to be the case with most men. The real things, though, is that there are no guarantees in life. You could be hurt by him again. Only you can determine whether or not he is worth taking the chance on. But you could be hurt by the next man or the man after that as well. If you truly love this man, then why not give him a chance? Good luck.
Author Ripples Posted February 25, 2007 Author Posted February 25, 2007 Silk, yes, you are absolutely right about the men handling emotions thing. I can't remember who it was (LJ?) who said men are still using dial up to process emotions whilst we women are on T1 connections. And yes, the old mid-life crisis, I guess, for his going 'nutso' Ok, so I've backed the hell off of my emotional stance with him and we had a very good week, last week. As a result of this and consequent needing to process his feelings, he's asked for some time alone to think and I've readily agreed to it. So I haven't seen him this weekend. I did feel a bit anxious and so I asked him if he was seeing someone else, not in an accusatory way, just asking for reassurance and he gave it to me without sounding impatient or defensive. It's been hard to not pick up the phone though! It's been good for me to have this weekend to reflect, also. I've been talking myself through the questions, and although I haven't been able to finally make my mind up to forgive, put the past behind etc., I've come to realise that, as I've preached to many others, I need to find within myself the things I'm craving from G which is mainly security. So I've spent the weekend making plans about how to do just that and putting my life in a bit more order. If anyone has any suggestions to keep me going, I'd be grateful for them TIA
lovelorcet Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Hey Ripples... Dont take me the wrong way here but... Don't you think that maybe you are wasting your time with the older man? What kind of future do you expect with this man?
Author Ripples Posted February 25, 2007 Author Posted February 25, 2007 Um, how do you mean 'wasting my time'?
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