The self-esteem of a OW

[Island Girl]

Just to say I'm not attacking here, just trying to get to the bottom of this 'self-esteem' thing.

 

You met a man and he lied about being married. When you found out you threw him out of your house... but continued in contact with him until he filed for divorce, and then continued to date him while he was still married, and up to the divorce. You ended up married to a man who had lied to you in the beginning about his marital status..?

 

Yes I met a man who lied about being married. He had thought the divorce could be processed before I would know and then he could tell me at some other point - if indeed we were serious at that point.

 

He was separated and had been for quite a while. The conversation with the then current Mrs. revealed this to me. "He has been trying to get a divorce for a couple of years" was what she had told me. However, there were steps she needed to take for her religion to accept and not excommunicate her. He had not made a move out of respect for that. She had not made a move because she still held on to some hope that he'd suddenly "wake up" and realize he wanted to stay married.

 

She was not the only one who got some questions answered, I did too.

 

I did throw him out. He had things at my house and stayed over a few times a week though we were not living together. I was angry he had not divulged full facts and wanted clear waters to sail on or there would be nothing between us.

 

He contacted me on several occasions to try to tell me about what was happening with the situation. I did not have lengthy conversations about what was going on. I asked why he was contacting me and until he said he had papers in hand to show me, my response was "WE have nothing to talk about".

 

When he did finally tell me he had the papers, I agreed to meet with him papers in hand, and talk about what had happened.

 

He had to start all over at that point. Back to dates, etc. Just like starting all over again. It was some work on his part.

 

Four and a half years later we were married. Interestingly enough the same month his ex was remarried.

So when I say he had to start from scratch, he really really did. It went really slowly for a long time while I decided what I even wanted from him at that point and then, once I decided I did want a relationship, he had to prove he was worthy for me to consider as a more permanent fixture.

 

His family jumped in to help try to convince me that I should consider marriage. Since they all knew what had transpired the entire time. -- Again, I was never a secret and it was no secret he was not with his wife before he even met me.

 

Presumably you consider yourself an (x)OW with self-esteem. (question)

 

No, I don't. I was not the OW in that sense.

And no one would ever say I have or have ever had low self-esteem.

 

There is quite a difference of knowing a man is married and starting or even continuing an "affair" and by that I mean he goes home to his wife and possibly children.

 

My husband had already moved out long before we met and did not even see his ex. She knew he was dating other women - just knew also there was no one "special" until she heard about me.

It was a realization on her part that he really did mean what he had told her all along for more than 2 years.

 

Yet knowing all of this from the conversation with her I still told him to deal with his own life and made him leave.

 

I did not tell him he had to get papers to see me again. I did not lead him to believe there would be anything between us.

 

I just told him he had to deal with his own problems, that he lied to me, and that I knew it.

 

So is self-esteem measured by the extent to which an OW insists that the MM gets a divorce..? Isn't that what others might call a 'homewrecker'..? (asking this particularly because I'm insisting that MM gets a divorce or we end the affair... and I've been criticised for that on another board here).

 

I did not insist on a divorce.

I was not the reason for the divorce.

I was not a part of the decision, at all, except on her part which was finally her acceptance of what he had been saying to her for a very very long time.

 

It had nothing to do with me and had been in the works for quite a while before he even met me.

 

Had he been with her in any or all aspects of being married there would not have been anything for he and I to talk about - EVER.

As it was, it was only on paper, just the legalities to go through - no property haggling and no children.

 

I had gone through a divorce where the other person refused to accept it and dragged it out myself, even though we were not together in any way shape or form for 8 months (we were separated longer than the actual marriage because he ducked the servers and filed extensions). So I know these situations can happen.

 

Hearing it from her and not him helped as well. We were very frank with each other.

 

What about the self-esteem of someone who marries someone who started off their relationship by lying about being married..? Did you forgive him for that, on the grounds of (as you say) 'he thought I'd never date him if I knew he was married'..? That sounds like a lousy, cowardly excuse for a lie.

 

I don't expect you to understand but he knew I would have said a quick "no" if I'd have known he was separated. I knew I could date whoever I want and I did quickly cut guys off who didn't fix the exact profile. So his instincts were right on.

The forgiveness came from his actions in the years after this happened. Not from the reason he lied. I didn't care why he lied, I knew he was right and that I probably would have moved on to someone else immediately, but that was no reason to lie to me.

 

I initially stopped all contact. He worked hard to get any contact at all. And as I said, he had to start all over. There was no "happy reunion" at first. Although I loved him he had lied to me about what was happening. So he had some hoops to jump through to start earning any amount of trust and respect back.

Had I not heard the facts from her and I had found out some other way it'd have been over period. But I knew there were no other lies as far as the other relationship. It WAS over. He had told her many times over a period of years and then finally got another place many many months before and reduced contact so she would really go through the church process that she needed to instead of letting it limp along.

 

I was not a secret. Our relationship was in full view of anyone and everyone (that is how she knew so much about who I was - because we ran into extended family members and he always introduced me proudly to them - so she heard it from him and them).

 

As I said above, I'm not meaning to criticize you, but since this can of worms keeps being opened, it would be nice for us to see exactly what actions indicate 'low self-esteem' in an OW.

 

Accepting less than a full relationship. Knowingly being second to a wife and possibly a family. Knowingly watching him go literally from your bed to another and having that be somehow okay.

 

My man was essentially completely available. No calls to the wife, no going home to the wife, his time was all mine because he had moved out and been living a single life long before he met me.

 

I would never accept anything less than being the one and only he was spending time with or talking to.

 

I know I deserve all of a man not just part. I deserve a shoulder to lean on whenever I want or need it. That is what I get.

 

I deserve the ability to be completely spontaneous and go anywhere and everywhere with my man. I will not be some "secret".

 

And holidays and birthdays are for us - so he better be a part of all of them as well as every minute of everyday. If he is thinking of his "someone special" it better only be me.

 

I don't accept any less, I never will.

 

No woman should.

 

All women deserve a man who loves her and supports her, including the exclusion of all others, completely 100%.

I think most, pretty close to all, women who would knowingly play second place and take left-overs are lacking in self-esteem.

 

If there are any more questions please let me know but I think I covered it all.

 

 

Sorry to the OP that this is a bit off topic.

[frannie]

Thanks for the quick and full response!

 

I'm not sure it's 'off topic' because the thread is about self-esteem and being an OW.

 

I can see what you're saying about insisting on having a man who doesn't go home to another woman (his W).... but that in itself can't indicate 'low self-esteem' necessarily. For example, an OW who is married and doesn't want her MM to divorce (because she has no intention of divorcing herself) would have a different view of caring whether he was going back home to his W.

 

I suppose what bothers me is the blanket application of 'no self-esteem' to women who are in affairs. If it does nothing else, it leads people in this situation to think... hmm, well that's not me, so what else here isn't true..?

 

After all, the HUGE numbers of women who will be OW (as single women or MW) can't all have low self-esteem. That simply doesn't make sense. Just looking at percentages, it would end up being that this was perfectly normal self-esteem, by force of numbers.

 

Before we go telling people in a particular situation that they're somehow deficient, it might be an idea to define what is low-self esteem and how it can be seen in all sorts of relationships (or lack of them).

 

(this wasn't particularly aimed at you, island girl... just thinking aloud on the topic)

[Island Girl]

Okay -- so I think a MW having an affair just doesn't think enough of herself to walk out on the marriage she is unhappy in.

 

Either you work on the marriage or you walk but to muddy the waters with an affair just confuses the matter even more.

 

A woman should have enough self-esteem to rather be alone than deal with such a poor relationship. And certainly reaching out for something she isn't getting is best done when there is no one clinging to your apron strings.

 

Then, if you find it, what you are looking for, it does not start off with the shaky foundation of an affair. It can become a relationship all unto it's own.

 

There are the excuses of children, etc. But viewing an unhealthy relationship while growing up is not good for the kids - it has been shown they model their relationships after what they see at home - so great - a whole new generation of 'unhappy-married-for-the-wrong-reasons' couples.

What a sad legacy.

 

I think if a marriage is damaged you should try to repair it. If you can't, or things are bad enough that you don't want to, leave the marriage.

 

Affairs just confuse things, cause duplicitous emotions, and hurt others unnecessarily.

 

Life is too short.

[frannie]

Okay -- so I think a MW having an affair just doesn't think enough of herself to walk out on the marriage she is unhappy in.

 

... I think if a marriage is damaged you should try to repair it. If you can't, or things are bad enough that you don't want to, leave the marriage.

 

Well, personally I agree with you. I wouldn't want to stay married in that situation, neither would I stay married to someone who had cheated on me. But people do these things all the time, for all sorts of reasons. Not everyone believes in 'walking out the door' simply because things aren't perfect (or even good).

 

But just because they have other priorities, or other views about marriage or how to run their lives, doesn't automatically mean they have low self-esteem. Not to my mind. It just means they have a different way of looking at life, and different priorities.

 

Now I will agree that there is a lot of low-self esteem on LS. But by no means is it limited to OW, and not all OW posting here (and let's face it, they're the ones with the problems!) have low self-esteem.

 

I think it's simply another barb aimed at women in a particular situation, and an easy one to fling into the bargain.

[Island Girl]

Also - as far as self-esteem in other relationships -

 

Low self-esteem is present in the women who use sex to try to gain intimacy and end up getting used by men.

 

It is present in the girl who clings on to a guy and panics when he withdraws.

 

It is present in the women who view any attention from a guy as good and need some kind of male validation to feel okay about themselves.

 

It is there in the relationships that are emotionally or physically (or both) abusive. Where she lets it start happening and while it deteriorates and takes more and more from her she can't even feel what she is losing and has no idea she is missing it (self-esteem).

 

As I see it - it is also there when the woman at whatever age is saying to herself "I hope he likes me, I hope he likes me" instead of thinking, "I hope I like him, I hope he is worth my time."

[Trialbyfire]

Speaking of eloquence Island Girl, well done. I can respect someone who wants an honest relationship and doesn't rely on the man to define who they are and what they want out of life.

 

Although there are exceptions to every rule, the vast majority of OW and the Betrayed have self-esteem issues.

 

In one situation both can be but are not necessarily similar issues whereby they remain in dysfunctional relationships. How can you want a man who's not whole, who has damaged you? Why would you be willing to settle for a piece of the man? Don't you feel you deserve better?

 

Solely from some of the Betrayed perspectives, this man needed something I could not provide. Have I failed at my relationship?

 

I can easily relate to this. During my fiasco as one of the betrayed, my self-esteem was at an all-time low at least for me, lol. The question was, what was I lacking that he had to find it elsewhere? As it turned out, it wasn't me. It was his own immaturity to want to continue being a player. If I lacked something, it was my error in judgement of him as a person of integrity. Live and learn.

 

To meander off, something I did notice about self-esteem within this forum. It appears there's a lot of self-esteem vampiring going on. Is it such a limited commodity that we must take/steal it from each other?

[GreenEyedLady]

Now I will agree that there is a lot of low-self esteem on LS. But by no means is it limited to OW, and not all OW posting here (and let's face it, they're the ones with the problems!) have low self-esteem. I think it's simply another barb aimed at women in a particular situation, and an easy one to fling into the bargain.

 

Totally agree with you Frannie...

 

Now should we statrt a thread about people with a superiority complex?!

[pureinheart]

I have come to the belief that a OW has very low self-esteem and has never had a healthy relationship in her life.

 

The OW is always questioning the intentions of the MM. Even though the intentions are right in front of their face. But anyway.

 

The OW is always struggling whether they are good enough.

 

And not one OW that I have read has been in a healthy relationship.

 

So my question to all of you is this. What do you get out of invading someone elses life ?

 

 

Hey Guest....

 

He invaded my life and was a tool meant for my destruction....he did not succeed

[Jinxx]

More about this low self-esteem issue -- pretty shallow to restrict it to OW aka homewreckers, blah, blah, blah.

 

ANYONE can have low self-esteem. Period.

 

OW are not homewreckers. It takes two to go down that path. Two consenting adults. Sure some OW didn't know their MM was already married. That happens. But every situation is different. Not all affairs start out as lies.

 

As an XOW -- no way, no how was he or any other man (inlcuding my legally separated husband and ex-husband) will ever be able to knock me to a level so low that I have low or no self-esteem. Trust me, my ex-husband tried his damndest to do it. Didn't work.

[Karma24]

We are still in love but in agony because I am single now and he has no guts to leave.

 

Correction: You, not "we," are in love.

[ridingthebulls]

If you knowingly try to rip a married man away from his wife, yes you have self-esteems issues.

[Salicious Crumb]

More about this low self-esteem issue -- pretty shallow to restrict it to OW aka homewreckers, blah, blah, blah.

 

ANYONE can have low self-esteem. Period.

 

OW are not homewreckers. It takes two to go down that path. Two consenting adults.

 

Thats true, it takes two...but if the OW/OM knew that their partner is married, the OW/OM ARE homewreckers along with the MM/MW they are bedding down.

[pricillia]

Thats true, it takes two...but if the OW/OM knew that their partner is married, the OW/OM ARE homewreckers along with the MM/MW they are bedding down.

 

 

SC...

 

What are you doing to contribute to the homwrecking of your home?

 

Maybe not "bedding down" another but your harsh words and disgust are enough to make someone run the other way and never come back.

[Jinxx]

SC...

 

What are you doing to contribute to the homwrecking of your home?

 

 

Good question.

[Salicious Crumb]

SC...

 

What are you doing to contribute to the homwrecking of your home?

 

Nothing. When a man treats a woman like a queen in every aspect and shows her ultimate respect....the hammer is justifiably dropped when unfaithfulness is brought to light.

 

She knows that she either wants her family, or the single life...its her choice. If she wants the single life...then she loses her family.

 

her choice..not mine.

 

Of course, she doesn't look as good as she did when she was catting around....she is now worried that I am going to leave her.

[Jinxx]

Nothing. When a man treats a woman like a queen in every aspect and shows her ultimate respect....the hammer is justifiably dropped when unfaithfulness is brought to light.

 

She knows that she either wants her family, or the single life...its her choice. If she wants the single life...then she loses her family.

 

 

You "assume" nothing. Your wife probably has a different perspective on your whole "queen treating aspect". She cheated for a reason.

 

She will lose you, not her children. Her children are her family. If you decide to leave her or vice versa, she might be single for awhile but she'll still be mother to her children. That is the reality of divorce. New family bonds form.

[Trialbyfire]

Nothing. When a man treats a woman like a queen in every aspect and shows her ultimate respect....the hammer is justifiably dropped when unfaithfulness is brought to light.

 

She knows that she either wants her family, or the single life...its her choice. If she wants the single life...then she loses her family.

 

her choice..not mine.

 

Of course, she doesn't look as good as she did when she was catting around....she is now worried that I am going to leave her.

SC, you have so much pain right now and you're lashing out. I can easily relate to this through my recent experiences.

 

Point blank, your s/o doesn't deserve either you or any of the love, honour and commitment that you've given her. It's bitter ashes when she's taken everything you gave and stepped all over it, dragging the beauty of your gifts through the mud. If you need to talk about it, pm me and I will gladly discuss it with you more. I don't want to push you but am willing to help if you need it.

[Salicious Crumb]

You "assume" nothing. Your wife probably has a different perspective on your whole "queen treating aspect". She cheated for a reason.

 

Ah...blame the victim. This doesn't surprise me of you..whatever appeases your own guilt of being a cheater and a home wrecker.

 

 

She will lose you, not her children. Her children are her family. If you decide to leave her or vice versa, she might be single for awhile but she'll still be mother to her children. That is the reality of divorce. New family bonds form.

 

She will lose her family in the way she wants it. She wants us to be a family together. Sure they will always be her children and she won't LOSE them in that sense, but I will get custody if she decides to stray again or want to act single again. I would never keep her from her children...but I refuse to be without my children on a day to day basis because SHE was the one that strayed and wanted to stay out til the wee hours of the morning while I watched the kids. So much for trying to be a good husband.

[Salicious Crumb]

SC, you have so much pain right now and you're lashing out. I can easily relate to this through my recent experiences.

 

Point blank, your s/o doesn't deserve either you or any of the love, honour and commitment that you've given her. It's bitter ashes when she's taken everything you gave and stepped all over it, dragging the beauty of your gifts through the mud. If you need to talk about it, pm me and I will gladly discuss it with you more. I don't want to push you but am willing to help if you need it.

 

Oh come on Trial...we should, as betrayed spouses, listen to the likes of Jinxx...we caused it..we are to blame. We gave them everything...but we didn't cut off our right arms up high enough towards the shoulder for them.

 

ITS ALL OUR FAULT!!! So I guess I'll go and get a dull hacksaw.

[Trialbyfire]

Oh come on Trial...we should, as betrayed spouses, listen to the likes of Jinxx...we caused it..we are to blame. We gave them everything...but we didn't cut off our right arms up high enough towards the shoulder for them.

 

ITS ALL OUR FAULT!!! So I guess I'll go and get a dull hacksaw.

Oh, no doubt there's a lot of negativity from certain OW members. Do you believe what someone else tells you or do you know you're better than that? Best to take it out on the real offenders rather than let someone on a forum bait you, when you're raw this way. I know exactly how you feel. You might want to look at some of my older posts. Btw, my ex not only had one betty on the side, he had four that I found out about, nvm the ones I will never know about. Tell me about the pain of a relationship that was a lie.

[GreenEyedLady]

TBF: You are SO MUCH BETTER off without him...((HUGS))

[Salicious Crumb]

Oh, no doubt there's a lot of negativity from certain OW members. Do you believe what someone else tells you or do you know you're better than that?

 

Oh come on Trial...give me more credit than that...I definitely know better. My comments were worded in that way to show ya how silly that way of thinking is.

 

Of course cheaters and those that are with them are gonna try to put the blame on the betrayed. It happens all the time...it doesn't surprise me one bit. They don't want to acknowledge that cheaters are just plain, selfish people who want their cake and eat it too.

 

Sure there may be some situations like falling out of love, abusive relationships...things like that...but if thats the case...why cheat? Why not just leave? Like in my case...if things were my fault and I did something to cause my wife to stray while we were engaged...why did she marry me?

 

And yes, I pretty much know she took advantage of me when I was willing to stay home with our boys while she went out partying after we were married. Thought I was being a good husband. I now know I was just being a stupid fool.

 

That'll never happen again.

[Trialbyfire]

Thanks GEL. I needed that.

 

SC, the pain does lessen. If you want to talk about it, as I said, PM me if and when you feel like it. I could have used the same when I was raw too. I'm not here to beat you up about your anger and hatred. I'm telling you that you're not alone in this and that others have experienced something similar. I hope you can accept a hug from me too.

[Trialbyfire]

Oh come on Trial...give me more credit than that...I definitely know better. My comments were worded in that way to show ya how silly that way of thinking is.

 

Of course cheaters and those that are with them are gonna try to put the blame on the betrayed. It happens all the time...it doesn't surprise me one bit. They don't want to acknowledge that cheaters are just plain, selfish people who want their cake and eat it too.

 

Sure there may be some situations like falling out of love, abusive relationships...things like that...but if thats the case...why cheat? Why not just leave? Like in my case...if things were my fault and I did something to cause my wife to stray while we were engaged...why did she marry me?

 

And yes, I pretty much know she took advantage of me when I was willing to stay home with our boys while she went out partying after we were married. Thought I was being a good husband. I now know I was just being a stupid fool.

 

That'll never happen again.

I'll address the cheaters portion. I agree. They can be incredibly selfish, self-centered individuals just like yours and my ex.

 

I also agree about the leaving portion. Why do this? Because they can have everything, everything, everything. They can have you, your children and someone on the side. That she has no regard for you and your family is incredibly sad. Someone like that will never understand what it's like to give it your all and get the most satisfying feeling of doing your best in something. Your children have benefitted from your love and caring. If nothing else, they win and so they should, as innocents.

 

Baby, you are no fool. You are someone who cared enough to keep things going. You put yourself out and made sure that her selfishness didn't hopefully affect your children. You should be proud of this accomplishment and disdainful of her moral bankruptcy.

[frannie]

...why cheat? Why not just leave?

 

Maybe for the same reasons that you stay with your wife: because you don't want to lose out on seeing your children every day..? You said it yourself. That's a powerful reason to stay married to someone you no longer love or care for. Works for you, why not for others..?

 

And in answer to your 'blame the BS' bs. It's just that... BS. Just because a few people (who are, incidentally, trying to help you, only you're too wrapped up in yourself to see it) have asked you to look at your own actions and attitude doesn't mean that everyone on this board blames the BS for an affair. PLENTY of people, myself included, blame an affair on the people taking part in the affair. So please desist in your accusations and finger-pointing. You're not the only one on this board in pain.