Question - for everyone

[saintfrancis]

I may post this in other threads on LS because it is not limited to the A situation. However, I'm posting here first, because this concerns the ex-MM I was involved with in the past.

 

Y'all are going to think this is stupid and should be very obvious, but I'm asking anyway.... My question is, are there people in the world who need to be involved with others who, for lack of a better word, kiss their ass? lol! Yes, I am being serious.

 

I've been thinking about ex-MM... thinking about what I know about his W and his new OW. I know a fair amount about both of them, from both years of experience and hearing a lot through mutual friends. The W I can honestly say, grovels at his feet. Here's why I say this: He is a serial cheater. I was the THIRD affair that he had - that I know of - and now he is on his fourth. That doesn't count the one night stands, of which I know there was at least one. W knew something was going on - did not know about me specifically, but knew he saw other women. Yet, she basically covered his ass in front of family and friends, lied to cover up his A's, and told him that he never let her down, but that she loved him and still had hopes they could start over. You could look at that as noble, and in a way, it is. But, there is a point at which "noble," after literally fifteen years of someone cheating on you and disrespecting you, becomes groveling and pathetic. Having someone cheat and lie, and you not only take it, tell them you love them anyway, but COVER UP for them, that to me is pathetic.

 

So the new OW... don't know quite as much about her, but I can say for certain that she worships the very ground he walks on and tells him so regularly. I don't know if she eventually will turn into grovelling as well, in a few years when his true colors start cominh out, but I do know that in her eyes, his **** don't stink.

 

Then there's me. Yes, I used to think he was better than sliced bread, once upon a LONG time ago. But then the small lies started surfacing. And then the larger lies about when he was leaving, and the times he wouldn't be there for me when I needed him, etc etc. I am the type of person who will give someone only so much forgiveness before I start getting angry if the behavior continues. Yeah, yeah, I should have gotten angry and gotten OUT! I know this. Believe me, how I wish I had gotten out a long time ago. He was SOOO not worth the time wasted. But I digress... I can put up with a lot, way too much actually. But EVEN I have my limits. After having the trust broken and living with the fact that I came in second and third, etc, in his life... I started demanding more and holding him accountable. And yes, sometimes I got overly emotional and angry, we all have our faults and that is mine. But the bottom line is, I did not keep quiet about how I felt.

 

Back to my question... I can't help but wonder if he lost interest in me because I just didn't kiss his ass enough? I mean, if I had taken his word for everything, waited as long as he wanted me to without a word of complaint (I waited five years, I guess that wasn't enough for him), and never tried to stand up for myself, I have a feeling we'd still be together. Of course, that is not the kind of R I want. I'm asking because I'm curious more than anything. Or maybe I should have just shut up about everything because I was choosing to stay with him. See above about wishing I had chosen to get out instead....

 

Anyway, does this all make sense? His W will lay down and let him walk all over her, his new OW worships the ground he walks on... and then there's me -- when I had feelings for him at all, I loved him more than anything, but didn't exactly stay quiet about things were going wrong in the R. Is it over because I didn't act like his puppet on a string?

[Island Girl]

It was over before it started -- HE IS MARRIED.

 

The wife will always be there - and you have to play second stringer(also usually on the bench).

 

He could just want someone to kiss his behind - but the old saying is "it's usually over the second the woman he is having an affair with starts acting like a WIFE (i.e. "you were supposed to call, come over, etc.!).

 

Get your own guy who can be devoted to you -- and only you.

 

Don't you think you deserve more than scraps?

[saintfrancis]

It was over before it started -- HE IS MARRIED.

 

Don't you think you deserve more than scraps?

 

 

Oh I completely agree. I think I said above but it's worth repeating - that A is long over. I did get out, thankfully. And I think you are right, it was over before it started. I know some of these situations work out for the OW but the majority do not.

 

Yes, I deserve more than scraps, and for the first time in YEARS, I am actually looking at the propspect of getting more than scraps! And it feels damn good.

 

 

But... that doesn't address the question I was asking :-)

[LucreziaBorgia]

1. My question is, are there people in the world who need to be involved with others who, for lack of a better word, kiss their ass?

 

2. Is it over because I didn't act like his puppet on a string?

 

1. Oh yes, most certainly. There are some people out there who simply can't function unless they are having their egos constantly fed. Your guy sounds like a typical narcissist. As long as you are meeting his needs, with no regard to your own needs he'll keep you around. As soon as your needs begin to clash with or take precidence over his needs, he'll cut you out of his life and find someone who will be more compliant and worshipful. A good deal of MM types are classic narcissists.

 

2. Most likely.

[saintfrancis]

Hi LB (is it ok if I use that abbreviation?) -

 

Thank you for the reply. I always like reading your posts. They are insightful, direct, and blunt, without being judgmental or harsh. I appreciate someone being straight with me (ironic how a stranger can give that to you but the one who supposedly loved you could not).

 

sf

[puddleofmud]

I do agree that it would seem that for the most part "mistresses" are to be silent empty vessels to be "filled" with only what their partner's desire and to desire nothing for themselves much less be any one or any thing other than what their partner transposes upon them.

But it also my opinion that this may work both ways: the OP may see the attached partner as what they wish or desire and deny the reality of the situation.

This is also not uncommon w/ non-married persons: one may tend to transpose desires and needs upon someone who is incapable of meeting them and then deny that once needs aren't met and continue to make excuses about this in order to continue the attachment--as any attachment MAY be percieved as better than none...

And BTW: you are not in the least stupid, darling!

[BenThereDunThat]

Looking back, I can definitely say that "my" exMM has a huge desire to be fawned over by women. Men, he could care less about. He has no male friends. None.

 

He forever "courts" women. I'm sure it's not always sexual with him either. He just needs to be seen as the man who is always surrounded by women. Of course, it backfires on him. He's down to two women at work who will give him more than the time of day. Everyone else gives him a wide berth.

 

It took me a while to catch on because I've never experienced anyone like this. I think I finally can say I met a true narcissist. If he weren't so disgusting, I'd be almost fascinated by it. Because, deep down, I think he actually hates women. Resents them.

 

But on some weird level, that's where he gets his sense of worth from. He needs to feel that women like him.

 

Soemthing happened to him as a child, I'm sure of it. Whether it was his mother, his father, or a combination of both. This is a man who is deeply flawed.

 

Maybe he's a deeply closeted gay man? I don't know. I'll never find out what his real deal is on a personal level though, because I have absolutely no desire to even exchange inane workplace pleasantries with him.

 

Don't know if that's the train of thought you were originally getting at, SF, but that's my experience.

[saintfrancis]

So, following on my original question...

 

If a man, in my case ex-MM, is a narcissist, or possesses some narc. traits... do they usually show it right from the beginning? Or, can it be one of those things where they act like a great boyfriend/lover for the first one or two years, but then their true colors start coming out?

 

I'm just thinking about the times when he was good to me, and the beginning of the relationship, which was fantastic. Only over time did things start to unravel and he turned into a prick. My thinking is that if someone is a true narcissist, you will know fairly early on, right? But then again, some people are good at putting on an act for however long it takes....

 

What do you think?

[frannie]

I think that there are some fairly good signs that someone isn't going to turn out well long-term in a relationship (whether they're N or P or generally an abusive type, I wouldn't like to comment on specifically).

 

But... someone who is ALL sunshine and light and far too good to be true usually does turn out exactly that way: too good to be true. The 'nicest' people often turn out to be putting on an enormous act, and yes, it can take a while for that to come out.

 

If you do an internet search on 'nice guys' and signs of an abuser... you will see that acting like Prince Charming is the biggest give-away ever.

[saintfrancis]

I think that there are some fairly good signs that someone isn't going to turn out well long-term in a relationship (whether they're N or P or generally an abusive type, I wouldn't like to comment on specifically).

 

But... someone who is ALL sunshine and light and far too good to be true usually does turn out exactly that way: too good to be true. The 'nicest' people often turn out to be putting on an enormous act, and yes, it can take a while for that to come out.

 

If you do an internet search on 'nice guys' and signs of an abuser... you will see that acting like Prince Charming is the biggest give-away ever.

 

I didn't realize that. I will do a search and do some reading. The single guy I dated before MM was definitely abusive - not physically but emotionally. He was one of the nastiest people I have met. And, it did NOT start out that way! For the first 8-12 months, he was Prince Charming.

 

Geez, I am glad to have this forum, it is starting to open my eyes about the types of men I have chosen in the past.

[outofdarkness]

I may post this in other threads on LS because it is not limited to the A situation. However, I'm posting here first, because this concerns the ex-MM I was involved with in the past.

 

Y'all are going to think this is stupid and should be very obvious, but I'm asking anyway.... My question is, are there people in the world who need to be involved with others who, for lack of a better word, kiss their ass? lol! Yes, I am being serious.

 

I've been thinking about ex-MM... thinking about what I know about his W and his new OW. I know a fair amount about both of them, from both years of experience and hearing a lot through mutual friends. The W I can honestly say, grovels at his feet. Here's why I say this: He is a serial cheater. I was the THIRD affair that he had - that I know of - and now he is on his fourth. That doesn't count the one night stands, of which I know there was at least one. W knew something was going on - did not know about me specifically, but knew he saw other women. Yet, she basically covered his ass in front of family and friends, lied to cover up his A's, and told him that he never let her down, but that she loved him and still had hopes they could start over. You could look at that as noble, and in a way, it is. But, there is a point at which "noble," after literally fifteen years of someone cheating on you and disrespecting you, becomes groveling and pathetic. Having someone cheat and lie, and you not only take it, tell them you love them anyway, but COVER UP for them, that to me is pathetic.

 

So the new OW... don't know quite as much about her, but I can say for certain that she worships the very ground he walks on and tells him so regularly. I don't know if she eventually will turn into grovelling as well, in a few years when his true colors start cominh out, but I do know that in her eyes, his **** don't stink.

 

Then there's me. Yes, I used to think he was better than sliced bread, once upon a LONG time ago. But then the small lies started surfacing. And then the larger lies about when he was leaving, and the times he wouldn't be there for me when I needed him, etc etc. I am the type of person who will give someone only so much forgiveness before I start getting angry if the behavior continues. Yeah, yeah, I should have gotten angry and gotten OUT! I know this. Believe me, how I wish I had gotten out a long time ago. He was SOOO not worth the time wasted. But I digress... I can put up with a lot, way too much actually. But EVEN I have my limits. After having the trust broken and living with the fact that I came in second and third, etc, in his life... I started demanding more and holding him accountable. And yes, sometimes I got overly emotional and angry, we all have our faults and that is mine. But the bottom line is, I did not keep quiet about how I felt.

 

Back to my question... I can't help but wonder if he lost interest in me because I just didn't kiss his ass enough? I mean, if I had taken his word for everything, waited as long as he wanted me to without a word of complaint (I waited five years, I guess that wasn't enough for him), and never tried to stand up for myself, I have a feeling we'd still be together. Of course, that is not the kind of R I want. I'm asking because I'm curious more than anything. Or maybe I should have just shut up about everything because I was choosing to stay with him. See above about wishing I had chosen to get out instead....

 

Anyway, does this all make sense? His W will lay down and let him walk all over her, his new OW worships the ground he walks on... and then there's me -- when I had feelings for him at all, I loved him more than anything, but didn't exactly stay quiet about things were going wrong in the R. Is it over because I didn't act like his puppet on a string?

Part of the "rush" as far as having an A, at least in my H's case, was having his ego fed constantly...AND knowing that there were so many W who would constantly tell him how wonderful he was, blah blah blah...AND did not know of each other's existance. Do I think my H is a sociopathic jerk? Not a sociopath, but sick and selfish...People can and do change, but first they must recognize that they even HAVE a problem and then the long road begins, and it is a never ending road b/c it's a hard problem to stay on top of. I believe that in most cases, serial cheaters are addicted...to that is. It is an addiction that is at times stronger then any that tops the list. There has been much research to prove this.

 

Re: Something happening in his childhood...Yes, I also believe that in many cases, this has happended. This too, can be dealt with..The problem is that many times it is blocked out totally, or so deep that the person just keeps shoving back down..Therefore, it never gets dealt with and no healing takes place. In my opinion, it's a lucky person who is able to bring these things to the forefront and deal with them, thereby enabling them to heal.

 

Re: Some W, whether they are W's or OW's letting the MM run all over them, I also believe in enabling...I think this is often the case with such R's...Hope this has helped...

[EnigmaXOXO]

Is it over because I didn't act like his puppet on a string?

 

It's over because what you were hoping to get from the relationship was different than what he was hoping to get. Your two individual "needs" just didn't mesh.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Now, whether you knew this up front and were just hoping he'd change … OR whether he tricked you into believing you were both on the same page … really doesn't matter now that you're finally at a place where you're not afraid to accept the truth. And it certainly won't do you any good to obsess about why you weren't good enough for this particular fella. You may very well be a PERFECT fit for someone else. Preferably a guy who doesn't come with shipload of marital problems and personal issues he hasn't even found the stones to deal with honestly, yet.

 

Good grief, Ladies … you're all worth SO MUCH MORE than this!!

[saintfrancis]

It's over because what you were hoping to get from the relationship was different than what he was hoping to get. Your two individual "needs" just didn't mesh.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Now, whether you knew this up front and were just hoping he'd change … OR whether he tricked you into believing you were both on the same page … really doesn't matter now that you're finally at a place where you're not afraid to accept the truth. And it certainly won't do you any good to obsess about why you weren't good enough for this particular fella. You may very well be a PERFECT fit for someone else. Preferably a guy who doesn't come with shipload of marital problems and personal issues he hasn't even found the stones to deal with honestly, yet.

 

Good grief, Ladies … you're all worth SO MUCH MORE than this!!

 

Hi EnigmaXOXO,

 

I think I remember you from my previous posts on LS way back when. To comment on your observations:

 

You're right, we were quite obviously looking for different things. At the risk of sounding like I'm feeling sorry for myself, however (which I truly am not), I will say that ex-MM constantly proclaimed his love for me (except for the last year or so of the R) and how he wanted us to be together, married to eachother, eventually. So, if I was expecting or hoping for a certain outcome, it was because those proclamations of love and devotion were being fed to me from the start.

 

Now, was this all a lie? I suspect it was not in the beginning, but as things changed, eventually it was indeed a lie.

 

You said: "it certainly won't do you any good to obsess about why you weren't good enough for this particular fella. " I'm not obsessing here. I think it's normal -- and desirable within reason -- to do a post-mortem on relationships that have failed. I have done this when relationships with single ex-bf's have failed as well. It helps me gain insight into why I made the choices that I did. Thankfully, I do NOT feel I wasn't good enough for ex-MM. I can look back and say that, while I am sorry for some behavior of mine, for the most part I think I approached the R fairly well. If anything, I feel the opposite, HE was not worthy of ME in the long run - he is the one that manipulated and lied.

 

Anyway, I just want to be clear that this thread and my posts are not attempts at wringing my hands saying "why me why me." I really just want the insight, and part of it is just idle curiosity on my part. I DO deserve better than him. I have dated a couple of guys since he and I split, and still see one of them. It feels FANTASTIC to be with someone normal again!

[puddleofmud]

I think it perfectly normal to say "why me?" for a period of time. Who doesn't do that when an R ends? I feel this is a natural part of loss and grieving.

I also think it normal and productive when a person seeks to understand themselves via their relationships. It's called "self-awareness"

Those who are not so self-aware may tend to repeat unhealthy patterns and stay in the same funk for the rest of their lives...

I don't know that there any given/ proven formula for estimating one's initial attractive lasisons: it takes a good deal of time to get to know someone!

And, yes, some are better than others when giving themselves to another via intimate honesty.

And, yes, some are better at hiding this (and who gives a crap the other persons reasons, situation, reality!).

So, it is great to be self-aware but one should not place blame upon one's self when self-awareness "fails"--that happens and it sucks, to say the least!

Being human we've all gone through it time or two or a hundred.

"nothing ventured; nothing GAINED". Our attempts at intimacy will have hard roads but as long as WE rely on what we wish to gain, then that is what makes us better persons, better available to what we want for ourselves--which is what is better concentrated upon.