Is it the end?

[what2donow]

I know my situation isn't all that different from others, but I don't have anyone else to "talk" to right now. OK - here are the basics: M 18yrs with 2 kids (9&7); I had a 3 month EA with a MM; when MM said he didn't see ever leaving his wife, I ended it. I realized how wrong I did my H and our M, so I told H about it and answered every question he asked. I went to IC and we did 3 sessions of MC. This was back in Sept. '06.

 

The timing was horrible because since the beginning of Sept., H was only had 20 days off work. Not too much time to deal with anything. All the problems at work are about to be resolved and he goes back to normal hours/days next week. So I asked H today if he would be open to trying MC again, but with a different counselor. He didn't care too much for her and each session was us reading a chapter out of a book and answering questions about our past.

 

He wouldn't answer about going to MC, but asked me how I felt about him. I told him that's why I need to talk to a "pro" because I'm mixed up inside -- basically, care for him but I just don't feel attracted nor passionate AT ALL about him. Of course I said it a little nicer, but still, hurtful for him to hear. I tried to apologize again and told him we shouldn't talk about this because I am trying but just don't know how to fix myself and us. I mentioned some things that I've read about here, like feelings follow actions. I suggested that maybe we should try and act like things were OK and hug and kiss and see if that helps my feelings come back. He said he wanted no part of that.

 

One thing that he said that stood out was that our love was natural and he doesn't want a marriage where we have to work on the love. I told him that I think that is what got me where I am today.

 

I know I screwed up; I made horrible choices; and he's right, he doesn't deserve any of this. Then he said we should just get divorced and get it over with. Then he went to work (night shift). I don't know how serious this statement is. About a month ago he "threatned" to move out for a week, but then backed down when I agreed it was a good idea. He did leave for a week after I insisted that we needed some time apart.

 

I just wish I could feel SOMETHING for him -- love, anger, hate. I know he is a good person and I do try and focus on those things about him that are positive. Maybe I need more brain power!!

 

Most of the time I manage to keep smiling and stay positive (always that way around the kids). Tonight just isn't one of those times.

 

Sorry to be a downer, but thank you for reading...

[anna13]

M 18yrs with 2 kids (9&7); I had a 3 month EA with a MM; when MM said he didn't see ever leaving his wife, I ended it. I realized how wrong I did my H and our M, so I told H about it and

I guess i am still new to all the "mm""EA" lingo ... lol ... i dont know some of that .. sorry .. but what is the story here? i mean how long have you been married and what are the issues?

[empty906]

You told your H you didn't have feelings for him anymore? Wow. Bet that was a hard blow. And you fessed up after the A. You are braver than I am.

 

I, too, am having a difficult time reigniting a love for my W. I spent last week trying to sort things out as you seem to be and have only begun the process you are talking about starting.

 

If you do decide to try and stay together I can tell you that it will require a commitment on your part to be determined to work things out. I had a hard time accepting that. (I still have it in my head, not my heart yet. But my decision only began this morning)

 

I cannot offer you any experince advice but I can assure you that you aren't the only one facing that heart decision.

 

In the end will it work? Will your love for your H return? Those that helped me are convinced that it will. If I am willing to continue to put forth the effort.

[Ladyjane14]

Based on your post... I think it's possible he's on the verge of taking this choice out of your hands.

 

This kind of choice, whether to stay married or not, is often a bit of an illusion. You can certainly decide on your personal preference, but if the other person decides that what you have to offer isn't good enough anymore.... it's GAME OVER.

 

 

.... He wouldn't answer about going to MC, but asked me how I felt about him.

 

.... I suggested that maybe we should try and act like things were OK and hug and kiss and see if that helps my feelings come back. He said he wanted no part of that.

 

.... One thing that he said that stood out was that our love was natural and he doesn't want a marriage where we have to work on the love.

 

.... he said we should just get divorced and get it over with. Then he went to work (night shift).

 

.... About a month ago he "threatned" to move out for a week, but then backed down when I agreed it was a good idea. He did leave for a week after I insisted that we needed some time apart.

 

Do you see what I see?

.... He's considering his own options.

 

 

 

You know, there are a few things that a betrayed spouse needs in order to heal from infidelity. He needs REASSURANCE of his partner's love and devotion, and he needs HONESTY (the truth in all things), and he need TRANSPARENCY, an 'open book' type lifestyle that allows him verify that the unfaithfulness is indeed in the past.

 

You're certainly giving him your version of Honesty.... maybe more than he can handle.

And while I don't know where you stand on Transparency... it's easy to see that what he's NOT getting is Reassurance.

 

I don't want to give you the impression that honesty isn't important. It is. But... I think if I were you, I wouldn't have involved my partner in a 'thinking-out-loud' type process. I would have waited until I'd drawn a concrete conclusion.... Do I love this man, or don't I? And then I'd have shared the final verdict with him.

 

By virtue of your failure to reassure him, as well as by expressing your doubts verbally, you've as much as stated that you DON'T love him. And now, he's going to have to take that information at face value.

 

It's hurtful for a person to believe their partner doesn't love them anymore. And if you do change your mind and find your loving feelings again... it's going to be extremely difficult to convince him that it's so... if not impossible. How's he supposed to believe you? And if he does, how will he believe that you won't ever STOP loving him again in the future?

 

There can be no Reassurance of love... if you believe in your heart that you are unloved.

 

You know, one of the key ingredients, and perhaps the most important, when it comes to 'finding your loving feelings' is Sympathy. You've got to sympathize with your partner's position. You have to be on their side, a team-mate who prioritizes your mate's happiness at the same level as you do your own. When you 'walk a mile' in your partner's shoes... you develop empathy. You feel their feelings, and you identify with them.

 

Now, I ask you... have you walked that mile yet? Can you identify with what it is to have your partner STOP loving you? Can you feel the pain and doubt of an uncertain future.... the loss of YEARS invested in a person who feels virtually nothing for you?

 

Sympathy is one of the few tools that can overcome Resentment. Resentment tends to breed these red-hot emotions... anger and frustration. But you can't experience sympathy and still hold onto resentment. They are incompatible.

 

Resentment might come upon you unawares. You feel it before you've selected it. That's not always the case for sympathy. We might feel a twang of it when confronted by something sad, but it usually doesn't overwhelm us. What's more, we can consciously CHOOSE to experience it, by 'walking that mile'. Using our imagination to put ourselves in the other guys shoes, thereby momentarily displacing resentment.

 

From here, it looks like the window of opportunity is closing fast, What2donow. It may already be too late.

The betrayed spouse himself, usually doesn't know when that "window" is going to close. One day he'll be full of hope for resolving the conflicts... the next day he could give a sh*t less. He's run out of gas, and the only committment he'll have at that point is to not EVER be drawn back in again by the person who hurt him.

 

As I said earlier, these choices you think you have regarding the marriage are ILLUSIONS. Without offering the three ingredients above, honesty, transparency, and reassurance... the marital bond will bleed out from the wounds caused by the EA.

[Gunny376]

"I'm a man, I've got my pride,

I don't need no woman, hurting me inside"

 

On another thread in the Gender question, a poster asked, "Do men have feelings?"

 

You bet we do!

 

A lot of men's self idenity is wrapped up in what they do for a living and in being a good "provider" to their wife and children.

 

It was bad enough that you had the EA, but then you add insult to injury by telling your DH, that you don't have any feelings for him.

 

As a man this translates to:

 

"Everything I've done, worked my ass off for, scarificed for, gone with out, done with out for you and this marriage and this family has been for nothing and has been nothing more than a lie!" Would you hang around and "settle" for that?

 

In essence, you've gutted his pride, his self worth, his self esteem, his trust, his self image, his whole preception of what is world was for 18 years.

 

LJ's right, the window of opportunity may not just be closing ~ it may very well be closed already. If it was me ~ I'd toss you out by your ear, you wouldn't be going ~ you'd be gone!!!

 

IMHO, the only reason he's still in the marriage is because of the children.

[what2donow]

It's funny how you can "know" certain things in your mind, but it's not until you hear it from another that it slaps you upside the head!

 

"Everything I've done, worked my ass off for, scarificed for, gone with out, done with out for you and this marriage and this family has been for nothing and has been nothing more than a lie!" Would you hang around and "settle" for that? Gunny, I wouldn't settle for that. When you put it like that, I'm a little surprised H is still around. In several of our talks, I have told him that he is a wonderful provider for us and how much I respect and appreciate that about him. I have since read about how men and women have different love languages and that this is how men show it. I didn't really get that before.

 

Since I have been at home with the kids (about 6 years now), he is obviously the main provider. During that time, though, I have always supplemented the income in some way and I have, many times, tried to go back to work, either part or full-time. H ALWAYS said no - he wants me here. Problem is, in order to live comfortably, he has to work a ton. Like I said in the first post, he literally has had only 20 or 21 days off since the beginning of Sept. '06. He said he feels the pressure to work as much as he can to provide, but then he won't let me help out financially! So I understand the whole being the provider and all that, but for me, I'm frustrated that I can't help more, I get angry that he thinks I need all this "stuff" to be happy (and yes, I do tell him I need HIM more than I need things), and I am terribly lonely. Not making excuses for myself, just my perspective.

 

LJ, you really gave me something to think about last night. What you said about resentment and sympathy. This really popped out to me. I do think I've built up resentment over several things over the years and really didn't know or acknolwedge it. And you are definately right in that I haven't been sympathetic to him. Not really sure why either

 

So I was too honest??? Well, maybe. I just didn't know what else to say. Plus, I'm just so disgusted with myself for the lies last summer that I want to be completely open and honest with him. So maybe I can tone that down some. I'll add that to my list of things to work on!

 

 

Hey empty -- good to hear from you! I've read your thread and it is nice to know I'm not totally alone in this -- although I am sorry for what you're going through. I'll keep up with you and maybe together we can work our way back to our spouses. Or at least understanding ourselves better.

 

With LJ explaining and analyzing life for us and Gunny giving us the OCCASSIONAL kick-in-the-arse, who knows? Maybe we can get through this

[what2donow]

It's funny how you can "know" certain things in your mind, but it's not until you hear it from another that it slaps you upside the head!

 

"Everything I've done, worked my ass off for, scarificed for, gone with out, done with out for you and this marriage and this family has been for nothing and has been nothing more than a lie!" Would you hang around and "settle" for that? Gunny, I wouldn't settle for that. When you put it like that, I'm a little surprised H is still around. In several of our talks, I have told him that he is a wonderful provider for us and how much I respect and appreciate that about him. I have since read about how men and women have different love languages and that this is how men show it. I didn't really get that before.

 

Since I have been at home with the kids (about 6 years now), he is obviously the main provider. During that time, though, I have always supplemented the income in some way and I have, many times, tried to go back to work, either part or full-time. H ALWAYS said no - he wants me here. Problem is, in order to live comfortably, he has to work a ton. Like I said in the first post, he literally has had only 20 or 21 days off since the beginning of Sept. '06. He said he feels the pressure to work as much as he can to provide, but then he won't let me help out financially! So I understand the whole being the provider and all that, but for me, I'm frustrated that I can't help more, I get angry that he thinks I need all this "stuff" to be happy (and yes, I do tell him I need HIM more than I need things), and I am terribly lonely. Not making excuses for myself, just my perspective.

 

LJ, you really gave me something to think about last night. What you said about resentment and sympathy. This really popped out to me. I do think I've built up resentment over several things over the years and really didn't know or acknolwedge it. And you are definately right in that I haven't been sympathetic to him. Not really sure why either

 

So I was too honest??? Well, maybe. I just didn't know what else to say. Plus, I'm just so disgusted with myself for the lies last summer that I want to be completely open and honest with him. So maybe I can tone that down some. I'll add that to my list of things to work on!

 

 

Hey empty -- good to hear from you! I've read your thread and it is nice to know I'm not totally alone in this -- although I am sorry for what you're going through. I'll keep up with you and maybe together we can work our way back to our spouses. Or at least understanding ourselves better.

 

With LJ explaining and analyzing life for us and Gunny giving us the OCCASSIONAL kick-in-the-arse, who knows? Maybe we can get through this

[Gunny376]

Well, initially I said that I thought the primary reason that he's still in the game was because of the children, but since your latest post, there's an added reason. He in love with you.

 

Anyman that's willing to work sixty, seventy, + hours a week so the wife can be a SAHM is in love with that woman.

 

The two of you have just got your emotional ~ intimacy needs mixed up. Its almost like one is digging the ditch while the other is filling it up?! You're both are trying to accomplish the same thing, but you're going about it from different angles, and approaches.

 

Clearly there's a need for a re-alignment of priorties, wants and needs. People really only have a couple of needs. Food, clothing, shelter, water, etc. Everything else is pretty much a want.

 

And clearly your getting your emotional needs meet, i.e. cuddling and snuggling, chasing each other around the house ~ is more important and of more value to you than material things.

 

You can have satin sheets to lie on, satin pillows to cry on, a custom made Lexus, a mansion to live in ~ and still end up running off with the gardner?! You don't have to be all by yourself ~ to feel alone.

 

He's been showing and demonstrating his love for you, just not in the manner and ways which you understood and appreciated. Now with the EM, you've reduced his love, and efforts, and him to being nothing more than just a "meal ticket" and to add insult to injury its become a case of "Mama plays, ~ while Daddy pays."

 

I believe you might have an opportunity to turn it around, but its going to require a hugh investment of time, effort, and energy on your part, and listening to LJ in "earning your way back" into the marriage and into his heart.

[Ladyjane14]

My worry for you What2, is that you aren't going to find your love for this man until you're sitting across the settlement table from him. That would truly suck.

 

Everyday that you can't reassure him of your love... is a day when he's losing a little bit more of his love for you. He needs all three of those ingredients I told you about in order to heal.

 

So, while it's important for you to "find the love", if you focus on that goal exclusively, it might end up being a little too little and a little too late.

 

If you want to keep this man in your life... you need to resolve your feelings SOON. You've already got a ton of backpeddling to do in order to convince him of your sincerity.

 

What Gunny's telling you right here... should have you shivering in your boots. Because it's not going to matter to this guy if you finally decide you love him with all your heart, if HE no longer loves YOU.

 

He's been showing and demonstrating his love for you, just not in the manner and ways which you understood and appreciated. Now with the EM, you've reduced his love, and efforts, and him to being nothing more than just a "meal ticket" and to add insult to injury its become a case of "Mama plays, ~ while Daddy pays."

 

That "mealticket" business is a man's greatest insecurity. And you've tripped up on it.

[what2donow]

I know you're right LJ -- I need to resolve my feelings for H very soon. Just not sure how to go about that. I've been trying to focus on his positive attributes, been smiling more around him, making myself feel relaxed around him, and I'm trying to catch myself whenever my thoughts go to thinking about life without him in it.

 

Thanks Gunny -- I do know he's still in love, although I really don't know why sometimes! If he wasn't there is no way he would stick around and go through all this c*ap -- I know I wouldn't! I wish he could spend time with you so you could help him to man-up. Hey, you could start a weekend "MAN CAMP" and pass along all that wonderful, hard-fought knowledge! Seriously, we have talked about what things we need vs. the things we want. I just don't think he is ever going to be happy with what he has, material wise. He grew up with little and watched his parents struggle financially and I think no matter how much "stuff" he gets, it won't be enough. He seems, to me, to keep setting himself up for failure because each time we acquire something major, he immediatly focuses on the next thing. I like to just enjoy the moment, but he doesn't because we're still not where he wants to be.

 

We actually got to get away for a night this weekend -- just the two of us. We had a nice time -- no "deep" talks about kids, our relationship, or anything. Just nice and light. I made myself focus on controlling my reactions and feelings and I think it helped. He still keeps on "mothering" me, even though I've asked him so many times to stop. So when he would do those type of things this weekend, instead of seething and letting it get to me, I just stepped back and told myself that this is how he shows his love, that he doesn't intend for me to take it negatively and that I need to let it go. I made a point of reaching out and holding his hand a few times and I know that made him feel good.

 

I was reading another post where the H now recognizes that he was a "doormat" and maybe passive agressive. This so fits my H. In fact, in one of the few MC sessions, the therapist told him that she thought he showed the passive agressive traits. He didn't believe her, so no changes are forthcoming on that. The other posted suggested a Dr. Phil book, so I'll get that and see what happens. I think I will call around this week and find another therapist -- first for myself and then maybe both of us. I don't know if I've built such an emotional wall around myself and that's why I can't get that "feeling" back or what. I have noticed and become aware of when that wall goes up and I stop it. Now, I just breathe, then calmly tell him why I'm upset. He doesn't like conflict and will do anything to avoid it, but I now know by my keeping things quiet and calm for him, is tearing me up inside.

[Ladyjane14]

I hope you don't mind me moving it over here, but I wanted to point out something I noticed in a post you made on another thread.....

Example: one of the "issues" is that we don't pray together as a family; I do with the kids most every night and when he's home, he's watching tv or on the computer. I used to ask him every time if he wanted to say prayers with us and he would eventually come, but after several minutes and we were almost done. So I quit asking. He usually quit coming in. So at Christmas, he bought and wrapped a present for himself and put it under the tree. Come Christmas morning, he takes it, makes sure I'm looking, and opens a Daily Devotional book. Then makes a point of saying that he's going to do this every day. I know this is his way of saying "See, I'm trying", but it almost made me angry! Stupid, I know, but why make a big production? I need him to do things for himself, not because I want it or it's important to me, but strickly for himself. The first few weeks, he made a point out of reading it in front of me. I ignored him just to keep from feeling manipulated and angry about it.

 

 

Now, let's say for example that you have a dog. And you want that dog to go to the door, sit, and "woof" once, every time he needs to go out. So, you train the dog to do exactly that.

 

What's that dog going to do if your reaction to the new behavior is to give him the ole' stinkeye and then ignore him whenever he engages in it?

 

I think maybe you're mad at your husband sometimes for not being the man you expected him to be. But... he can't win, even if he changes his behavior, while that particular mindset is in place. He can't please you unless you're open to being pleased.

 

 

I've been trying to focus on his positive attributes, been smiling more around him, making myself feel relaxed around him, and I'm trying to catch myself whenever my thoughts go to thinking about life without him in it.

 

This is good. But maybe you can also go ahead and take a look at things you perceive to be negative as well. Twist 'em, turn 'em, pull 'em... and see if they're REALLY important enough to address. Some will be. Some probably won't.

 

When I did this, I found ALOT of these negative attributes were mostly grounded in my own expectations of what my husband ought to be doing. A good many of these things had NOTHING whatsoever to do with me. They were personality quirks. Since it was pretty clear that I wasn't going to CHANGE his personalty... I would have to learn to accept them as a "part" of the whole man. In short, I recognized that I was trying to "control" him to a certain degree, to mold him into my ideal vision of a man.

 

But really, I don't WANT to control anybody else ... so when I realized what I was doing... it was pretty easy to let go of some of that stuff.

 

Now, this didn't apply to everything. There most definitely were some issues that needed to be addressed. Conflict avoider that I am... the idea of hashing these things out wasn't fun to contemplate. But it's still necessary.

 

He doesn't like conflict and will do anything to avoid it, but I now know by my keeping things quiet and calm for him, is tearing me up inside.

 

I think it's up to you to teach him that "conflict" doesn't necessarily have to equal "fighting". It can be a healthy thing. Try reading the "Three States of Mind in Marriage" article over at marriagebuilders, as well as the information on "LoveBusters" and "POJA" (Policy of Joint Agreement). You might even print some of this information off and share it with him.

 

Remember, he's got his OWN laundry list regarding your behavior as well. Give it equal attention and prioritize it as you would your own. Even if something doesn't make much sense to you... it doesn't mean it's not important to him.

[what2donow]

I know you're right, LJ, about my mindset needing to be open to his changes. I know I've got many things to work on within myself. I guess what upset me about that situation in particular was the big show he made about it. I don't care as much about his reading Scripture right now as I do his attitude towards the kids -- not so quick to anger, spending more time with the kids and praising them instead of making fun of them. I guess I want him to find peace and happiness within himself. Not wanting too much, am I?

 

I have quite a bit of emotional baggage that I'm just discovering. I really didn't realize it until I started down this journey of self-analysis. I had a somewhat turbulant childhood (who doesn't!) and the way I "survived" it was to just mentally and emotionally shut it all out and pretend all that stuff didn't happen. I just focused on the fun things in my life -- friends, school and my music. I wasn't in a position that I could do anything about what was going on in my life, so I just ignored it I guess, and just kept on. Turns out I've been doing the same thing during our relationship.

 

When we first started dating, he would often make jokes at my expense. I told him I didn't like it and he needed to stop. At first, he would tell me he was just joking and it shouldn't bother me, and so he kept doing it. I remember one time he made another comment and I started crying and told him I couldn't take it anymore. So he did stop. But only for ahwile. I gave up that battle when it started again and I'm just now beginning to understand how much his comments and jokes have hurt me. Now I see him doing the same thing to our daughter and he's made her cry several times because of it. I've talked to him each time and again, he doesn't mean anything by it so it shouldn't bother her. I know the anger I feel when he does this to her is probably an over-reaction; however, the anger is there. More baggage.

 

I'm also beginning to realize that what I want or expect from him will never come to pass. Then I'll have to work on acceptance. I hope this doesn't sound like I want him to be perfect or totally different, because I really don't. There are just some things that right now I feel I need from a partner that he isn't providing. I haven't thought of it as wanting to control him... I really don't think I do. Guess I'm at the point where I need to determine which issues are vital and let all the others go. I don't think I can get there first without letting go of some of the "old" emotions that I've built up over the years. That's going to be a tough one for me. How do you clean the slate?

[Ladyjane14]

I don't care as much about his reading Scripture right now as I do his attitude towards the kids -- not so quick to anger, spending more time with the kids and praising them instead of making fun of them.

 

So, I'm sure you see that you reacted emotionally to something that wasn't all that important to you rather than the thing that actually was. That's probably just symptomatic of your frustration with not making headway in solving the original problem, which appears to be the poor communications issue. I have to wonder what other things might be triggering this 'frustration reaction' as well?

 

It's hard to not find fault with a guy on the little things when he's not doing the BIG things right.

 

You've been at him for a long time over these communications issues, right? Forgive me for not remembering, but have y'all gone for counseling on that? It sounds to me like he's not addressing you and the kids based on your specific emotional needs.... which means he's not communicating with you in terms that YOU can best identify with.

 

The whole purpose of communicating an idea is so that the other person can understand you, right? So it seems to me that he needs to learn to tailor his communication methods to his target audience... you and the kids. That way he's better understood.

 

Maybe you should try reading through The Five Love Languages with him. That might give him an understanding of the basic concept of expressing love in a way that his family members can better identify with it. There's also a The Five Love Languages of Children, but I haven't read that one yet.

 

 

How do you clean the slate?

 

It's a matter of MUTUAL forgiveness. You both just decide together that you're going to let every little previous transgression go, forgive each other, and start anew. Then you remind yourselves EVERY DAY that you did, until it sticks and becomes second nature. You don't have to talk about it every day. You just give yourself a little reminder whenever something triggers you that's supposed to be in the past. Don't forget... it's a point of honor not to hold resentment over something which has ALREADY been forgiven.

 

I admit... it sounds easier than it is.

But, it's worth it when you've got an otherwise good partner who deserves a second chance.

[what2donow]

Well, some things have changed! I had applied for a job on a whim -- didn't think I had a shot and just wanted to really get my foot in the water and see about going back to work full-time. Well, they offered me the job Thursday! I couldn't believe it. Right now I'm negotiating the salary and hopefully all will be set on Monday. I guess I'll start work the following week!!!

 

At first, H wasn't too happy, but he is very excited about the additional income. This job offer really opened a door for us to talk about our M. Basically, he thinks he can become the happy, relaxed, fun guy again with some of the financial pressure off him. This was the first time he admitted that he has not been a happy person and becoming a recluse. He agreed that he would cut down on his work hours and make a better effort with the kids. I told him when things get settled with the new job, I would resume IC if my feelings/attitude toward him doesn't change. I know that won't happen on its own and sometimes I really wonder if I can let it all go.

 

I have been thinking about what things are really important for me, and what things are just wants, or ideals, about our M. For now though, I'm going to focus on getting my kids adjusted to all the changes, updating my wardrobe, and not referring to myself as mommy!!!

[mum2three]

Congrats on your job but don't lose focus. My H gave me a unspoken "window" of opportunity for MC but I was switching counselors and the holidays came up and he said, "That's it. It's too late." Personally, i think the 4 sessions of MC were formalities for him but just in case your H is not keeping up with all your emotional and job changes I'd keep up the IC and MC. Don't lose focus since you are trying to meet his needs now.