StayClose Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 All: Do you think it's OK for a married person to use porn on a regular basis while sex is non-existant or poor quality due to his/her partner's lack of sex drive? This is assuming that porn is NOT the cause of the lack of sexual interest.
tanbark813 Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Absolutely. If one partner refuses to meet the other's needs they don't really have any right to then turn around and dictate in what ways the neglected spouse can and cannot fulfill him-/herself. Plus, better porn than cheating.
Lennox Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 What is the cause of the non-existant/poor quality sex life to begin with? Frigid women are made, not born.
Author StayClose Posted February 7, 2007 Author Posted February 7, 2007 She claims it's primarily stress over our credit card debt & financial situation. Yes, that is a problem, but I don't feel it should affect our sex life. Sex is on of the few things you can do that's a lot of fun that costs very little money, yet that's mostly off the table too, along with fancy vacations & nice resturants and buying new electronics.
tanbark813 Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Frigid women are made, not born. That's like saying inattentive husbands are made, not born. If someone is lacking in contributing to a relationship, they bear at least some responsibility for it. To blame it entirely on the other person demonstrates a lack of accountability and ability to see the bigger picture.
Mustang Sally Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Yes, that is a problem, but I don't feel it should affect our sex life. Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's her perogative to feel stressed about what she chooses, no? It is not that unusual (read some other threads here) for wives to manifest stress as loss of interest in sex. On the other hand, maybe there is some other issue that is bothering her and she feels unable to bring it to the table with you, so she gives you this excuse? As far as the "porn instead of sex" question, I personally wouldn't have a big problem with this, but (read some other threads here at LS) there are many, many females who would. It's an individual thing, I guess. Your mileage may vary.
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 I think its ok to do that. I see no problem with it. Unfortunately, what I think doesn't matter - and neither does what anyone else thinks. What matters is what your wife thinks. I expect it would be something along the lines of... Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, and doesn't. Or, maybe she wishes she had a sex drive and finds that she simply doesn't. It happens to women more often than not. That drive, that 'horniness' simply doesn't materialize in the brain. Nothing going on above, nothing going on below. Or if it does happen, its simply a matter of lube and some mechanical thrusting just to get you off and done with in a reasonable amount of time. Really sad, if you think about it. Here is where it starts to get complicated though. Even though your wife is not receptive to your advances, or is receptive and simply just has a 'get it over with quickly' attitude - it is of GREAT importance that she feels assured that you still want to have sex with her, even if you aren't getting any. She wants to know that the motivation is still there, that you still desire her - even though she has no intention of doing anything about it. Sounds messed up, eh? Its not the sex she wants. She wants to know that even if you can't have sex with you, you still want to and that you only want your outlet to be with her. Now, if you try to physically manifest that desire and share it with her, she'll turn it down. Its not important to her that you have sex. Sex won't make her feel attractive. Desire to have sex will. Perhaps that is all she needs to assure herself that you won't cheat on her or turn to porn. Its a weird thing, when you think about it. If you were to simply give up and turn to porn, she would not assume it was because you were frustrated with her refusals to have sex, nor would it occur to her to take any responsibility for it. She would assume that you were more attracted to the porn women, that they somehow are more appealing to you than she is. Same goes if you cheat on her. She won't see it as you reacting to her rejection. She'll see it as you rejecting her, and being unable to accept her - sexlessness and all. That's all hypothetical of course. I guess the main question I have is: what are your wife's views on porn? Is she ok with it? Not ok with it? Have you and she ever discussed it?
tanbark813 Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 She'll see it as you rejecting her So why is it important that he not reject her but her rejecting him is fine?
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 So why is it important that he not reject her but her rejecting him is fine? She doesn't see it as rejecting him, she sees it as rejecting sex. I guess a lot of women can separate out sex and love, but fail to understand that for many men in monogamous relationships, sex is love, and that is how they want to show it. Sort of along the lines of "if you love me, you would understand that I don't want sex and accept me for who I am under those conditions." They want a man to love and accept them, even if they don't want sex. They fail to understand that sex is an expression of love, not just some itch that a man wants scratched from time to time. I guess some women think that sex is simply a biological function for men, one that isn't an absolutely necessary if the couple loves each other enough. Oh, they want to be wanted though. You can believe that. I guess they feel they can love and desire their man in other ways, and feel that the man should be ok with that. If they can do without sex and still love their man, then shouldn't the man also be able to do without sex and still love his woman just like she can for him? Yeah, yeah... I know - it makes no real sense to most people, but for some women - it is a reality. Some really do think along those lines. A woman will think of a million different ways that she wishes that her man would 'show her' how much he loves her, and at the same time complain that 'all he wants is sex'. Now, why is that? I wish I knew exactly why. I'd write a book, maybe hit the talk show circuit.
tanbark813 Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 I guess what I'm getting at is not so much how the woman views it (because I understand what you said and don't disagree with that being the case), but I don't think it's fair that it's generally put on the man to fix things. That is, if a guy complains he's not getting sex, women blame him for not meeting her needs. But if a woman complains about not getting sex, the man is still blamed and accused of having no sex drive or whatever else. And if a woman is complaining about not getting her emotional needs met, you never hear women advising that maybe she needs to f**k her man more. Somehow, in most womens' eyes, and especially in cases like this, it's always the guy's fault. There is no sense of accountability for their own shortcomings. I just think it's hypocritical to expect more effort from someone than you are willing to give. So the wife in this case is stressed about money. Big deal? Who--male or female--isn't stressed about something? A person can only expect so much understanding of their needs to the extent that they are willing to understand the other person's needs. And then to say, "Well some women just lose their sex drive," and expect that to be the end of it is ridiculous. What if a guy were to say, "Well I'm stressed about money so I don't think I'll be showing you any affection or emotional support for the next several years, honey." ? How many women would be okay with that? None. And they shouldn't be. The guy would come across as a prick, and rightfully so. But for some reason, it's much more acceptable for a woman to neglect a man's needs than vice versa.
CaliGuy Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 I think you need to get to the root cause of the problems of stress. If it's the bills, what are you doing to correct the problem? Maybe she has some resentment towards you or the family's inability to live within your means? You want sex? Fix the financial problems if that is indeed the problem. Otherwise your marriage is going to suffer more than just a lack of sex. Communication, communication, communication. She sees the bills as more of a problem than you do and that IS a problem.
Lennox Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 That's like saying inattentive husbands are made, not born. If someone is lacking in contributing to a relationship, they bear at least some responsibility for it. To blame it entirely on the other person demonstrates a lack of accountability and ability to see the bigger picture. I didn't blame anyone at all for the lack of sex. The OP could have posted something germane like his wife was molested as a child, or some other reason that he's not specifically responsible for. I was trying to get to the root of the problem. And, inattentive husbands ARE made and not born. If a man is raised right, he will grow up to be a good, attentive husband because he's been taught by example. Now, I agree with CaliGuy. Stress over credit debt is very bad. It appears that she is more concerned with the credit debt and their financial situation than he is. I wouldn't feel like screwing a man that played with my finances and future so carelessly either. Do whatever you need to do to get out of debt. That should be your primary focus, then you'll have a wife back.
tanbark813 Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 I wouldn't feel like screwing a man that played with my finances and future so carelessly either. Who said it's due to him? Maybe she shops too much.
Topper Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Tanbark, and Others Don't you already know that Men are always wrong! No matter what it is the mans fault. according to woman there are 3 absolutes Death Taxes and men are Wrong! He wants to much sex he is a pig. He doesn't give me enough sex he is a wimpy man. If a man says something in the woods and woman is not around to hear him is he still wrong?
Krytellan Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Tanbark, and Others Don't you already know that Men are always wrong! No matter what it is the mans fault. according to woman there are 3 absolutes Death Taxes and men are Wrong! He wants to much sex he is a pig. He doesn't give me enough sex he is a wimpy man. If a man says something in the woods and woman is not around to hear him is he still wrong? I laugh at this but I also find my self agreeing with it to some degree. My experience has shown this to be true, and it's unfortunate.
Lennox Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Who said it's due to him? Maybe she shops too much. Well, if they are in trouble with their credit cards and unmanagable debt, who is the more likely of the two that caused it, the one worrying about it or the one that doesn't see it as a problem? You sure are quick to react and take things personally! You been in this situation yourself or what? If the wife posted what he did here, I'd be telling her the same thing I'm telling him. It's not a female-male issue, it's a fiscal responsibility issue. Since when did men become so whiney?
tommyr Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 To me, porn is like most things in live: perfectly fine when used in moderation. Do you ever talk w wife about the no-sex situation? If so, maybe worth mentioning that your frustration in the bedroom is now partly relieved with the help of porn. If that sounds harsh, I think its a legitimate response in your situation and that your wife ought to know that sexual relief is not an optional part of your life, but it would be better WITH her participation. I found that by being totally honest w my wife that her no-sex policy was driving me to use porn as an outlet, this seemed to help get the point across (that we should work on our sex life..... together). Its worth an hour or 2 to read the long thread How would you feel in a sexless marriage? especially the female posts. Its helped me alot.
Mustang Sally Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Just wanted to say that I think there certainly is a pervasive attitude "out there" that what Tanbark and others are saying about "Men are always wrong in this situation" is true. And as a woman, who has been in a low-sex marriage, I too had this perspective for a time. Then I had one of the "Aha" moments (described in the other thread, How would you feel in a sexless marriage?) and I woke the f*ck up and realized I needed to get over myself and fix my part of the responsiblity for what was wrong (medically, physically, emotionally, whatEVER) with the no-sex thing and my M as a whole. And that things wouldn't get fixed if I didn't open my mind up to new perspectives and possibilities. There is nothing my H did or could have done to bring me to that point (other than general patience and love and just sticking it out with me). I just finally got sick of the whole dysfunctional situation and opened my eyes to the fact that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't the whole problem (you know the usual: he's just a horndog, he's just using me as a hole for sex, he doesn't really care, blah blah BLAH). Then I went on a mission to educate myself about what I had been feeling and what he was feeling and what could we/I do about it. It's amazing what new insights one can gain if you remember "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." (Mark Twain)
tanbark813 Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Well, if they are in trouble with their credit cards and unmanagable debt, who is the more likely of the two that caused it, the one worrying about it or the one that doesn't see it as a problem? Neither. The most likely one to worry is the one who generally has a more worrisome character. I have credit card debt of my own but it doesn't cause me enough worry to not want to get laid. You sure are quick to react and take things personally! You been in this situation yourself or what? Not personally. But I did grow up watching my parents in a similar situation (the needs part) and saw their marriage dissolve because of it. Since when did men become so whiney? Posting my own opinion doesn't make me any more whiney than you for doing the same thing. When did you become so bitchy? Take a look around the site on threads regarding lack of sex in marriage and you'll see my generalizations hold up for the most part. Compare the advice given to male posters on lack of sex versus female posters and you'll see a noticeable difference.
Guest Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 I see no problem with whacking off, and having mental affairs with the computer screen or videos, if your needs are not being met sexually by your spouse or partner. Nothing wrong with it at all, especially if after your wife or g/f has told you and shown you over and over what they feel THEY are needing that YOU are not providing, and missing the whole point of WHY it is your might be receiving sex. So as long as you have porn to get relief from, then don't be surprised when her heart is getting her needs met by another. Hey, another could be the internet or TV ya know.
Author StayClose Posted February 8, 2007 Author Posted February 8, 2007 Thanks for your resposes everyone. Here's some more info... Financial situation: We bought a house (slight fixer-upper) a few years ago and had a shopping spree with appliances, gardening tools, and other things homeowners need to have. At the same time her self-emplyeed income dropped dramatically. All this time I've been working at the same job with a stable income & small raises. She manages the checkbook & bills, as she has some bookeeping experience, she likes it more than I do, and she has a more detail-oriented personality. I've been under pressure from her to leave this job to get a higher paying job, but I feel she could do more to earn more with her business, like she was doing before. We've cut out most unecessary expences, so the only way out is to sell the house, or earn an extra $10-20k per year. I don't feel that the finance issue and the sex issue should be connected. In effect, I'm being told that if I want good sex, I need to leave a job I'm comfortable in and make more money. I feel this would be like a man telling his wife "No more sex until you lose 20 pounds!" How she feels: We have discussed this. Intellectually, she does feel it's not fair to me for sex to be off limits. So her compromise when I initiate, is to say (literarly) "Ok, if you want to I will." What happens then is no kissing, minimal foreplay and finish quickly. In other words, the lousy sex many women complain complain about. When it's obvious she's not into it, it's hard to keep my erection, which upsets her more (there's never an erection problem with porn). Somes she fakes interest an excitment, which she doesn't really like, and subtracts from the experience for me if I suspect that's what's happening. I've discussed what I do want: more foreplay, kissing all over, oral both ways, a variety of positions. Most importanly, I want her to want it and enjoy it. She says I'm trying to make too much of a "production" out of it, and have "unrealistic expectations" based on porn. I explain that my expectation are based not on porn but on the sex we used to have, and have had with partners before her. Then she said I'm confused about the "relatonship stage" we're in because weve been together 10 years. She shared this with her therapist, who then printed out some articles from the Internet explaining relationship stages. But while these articles do say that the hot & heavy sex at the start of a relationship slows down with time, they don't say that fun, exciting sex is "unrealistic" in the later stages. So last weekend, explained to her that while I feel that a man's primary sexual outlet should be his wife, I have to respect the fact that she's not into it at this time. At the same time, sometimes at the end of the day or week the rush of sexual endorphins does it for me, plus if I go 4-5 days without sexual release, I start to get irritable and that's not good for eaither of us. I could masturbate without porn, but that doesn't produce enough thrill for me. I asked her if I should just go ahead and use porn and not bother her about sex, just for the time being until she gets her libido back. She is not against all porn, nor is she against masturbation, but she doesn't like the idea of me doing both at the same time. Why can't I just masturbate to memories of marathon sex with her during our first year, or at least to a scenario completely in my imagination? Why do I need stimulation from an outside source? That's hard to explain, but the entire porn industry is based on the need for outside stimulation to create the endorphins. Now with Valantines Day coming up, I'm a little anxious about what's going to happen. She expects chocolate and a present, and I'd like to have more than "let me get lubbed with this vibrator, then stick it in and finish quickly." We'll see.
Author StayClose Posted February 8, 2007 Author Posted February 8, 2007 Even though your wife is not receptive to your advances, or is receptive and simply just has a 'get it over with quickly' attitude - it is of GREAT importance that she feels assured that you still want to have sex with her, even if you aren't getting any. She wants to know that the motivation is still there, that you still desire her - even though she has no intention of doing anything about it. Sounds messed up, eh? Its not the sex she wants. She wants to know that even if you can't have sex with you, you still want to and that you only want your outlet to be with her. Now, if you try to physically manifest that desire and share it with her, she'll turn it down. Its not important to her that you have sex. Sex won't make her feel attractive. Desire to have sex will. Perhaps that is all she needs to assure herself that you won't cheat on her or turn to porn. Its a weird thing, when you think about it. Here's the problem... Talking about sex is difficult, because she interprets discussion about sex as pressure to have sex, or criticism of her for not wanting sex. She feels guilty about not being able to please her husband, and can het mad at me for making her feel guilty. So while it's mportaant for her to know that I want her, expressing that want can make her feel bad and start a fight. I think what porn represents to me is some control with my sexuality. I have no control over her not wanting it, and when we do have it with minimal foreplay and "fiinsh quickly please," what we can do is very limited and there is no opportunity for sexual creativity. With porn, I can explore my imagination and in my mind create whatever scenario I want. True, you can't do EVERYTHING you can think of within a monogamious relationship, but there's an awful lot that two people in a large house with no kids can do, even if they have been together 10 years.
Lezbean Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Tanbark, and Others Don't you already know that Men are always wrong! No matter what it is the mans fault. according to woman there are 3 absolutes Death Taxes and men are Wrong! He wants to much sex he is a pig. He doesn't give me enough sex he is a wimpy man. If a man says something in the woods and woman is not around to hear him is he still wrong? If a man speaks in a forest and no one else can hear him....is he still wrong?
Lennox Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Thanks for clearing some things up. Ok, there's nothing wrong with her wanting you to get a better paying job. There's nothing wrong with you wanting her to do more with her business. Aside from the sex issue, this is something you both should be working on. Although until you get the better paying job, I wouldn't expect the lavish vacations, new electronic gadgets and expensive restaurants you mentioned in your earlier post. We all want nice things, but we have to earn them, they don't just land in our laps. Have you explored the possibility that your wife feels like you're treating her like a blow up doll or sexual prop? You say she doesn't have anything against all porn, but clearly she resents you mimicking porn in your sex life with her. She doesn't like you watching porn and masturbating at the same time to it because it feels like you're cheating to her. She also may feel like she's being replaced. You asked in your original post whether porn is an acceptable substitute for good sex in a marriage. I think as long as it's a trigger issue for her, it's not in your situation. I see you masturbating to porn as being something that will further drive a wedge between you and your wife. And you say you "need" the outside stimulation that porn provides. When porn becomes a "need" vs a "want", it becomes a problem. Men don't "need" porn to masturbate. Have you considered discussing this with a trained sex addiction therapist? You could take her along as well so you both get advice and her questions about this issue are answered.
Lennox Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 If a man speaks in a forest and no one else can hear him....is he still wrong? No, it means he's lost because he wouldn't ask for friggin directions!
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