CardPlay3r Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 Ok, so I have an online friend, she's 15 and bisexual she got a girlfriend recently, and her "church friends" went on about how it's wrong how it "makes god angry" and crap like that, one idiot even saying "I know I'll go to heaven, hope I'll see you there". Good one moron glad you know where you'll spend eternity, know next week lottery numbers too? :rolleyes: Anyway so now she wants to break up with her new gf because of those lame concepts that it's so wrog and it makes god have a tantrum or whatever, my question is what can I say to convince her otherwise? I feel it's a very wrong thing to do and that she'll regret it alot. Some links on this subject would help if anyone has any....oh, and if you're a religious freak please refrain from replying, I know it's hard but maybe you can fight the temptation...
bluetuesday Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 Some links on this subject would help if anyone has any....oh, and if you're a religious freak please refrain from replying, I know it's hard but maybe you can fight the temptation... i am not a religious freak so i will try to help. i suppose it depends on how much your friend needs to be accepted by these people and how much the particular church she goes to matters to her. if those things matter to her more than this new gf, you're probably not going to be successful whatever you say. 15 is very young to be able to exert controversial (in this situation) opinions among friends without caring what they think. i think your best bet is to try to reassure her the christian church teaches that nothing she could do can ever make god love her less. the people who are telling her she may go to hell etc are doing the very thing jesus warns people not to do - they are judging other people as being unworthy of god. they are casting the first stone and i doubt any of them is perfect. sadly, you find this a lot in church. christians are human, and just as prone to hypocricy as other people. on the other hand, be careful that you don't try to convince her to go one way or the other. her heart may be torn between the church and this gf. those are both very strong pulls. if you try to convince her to go one way, that's really no different than her church friends trying to convince her to go the other way. this is a decision only she can make. if she is member of one of the branches of christianity which frowns on same-sex relationships, she has to decide if that church is actually right for her. perhaps you could help in that. there are some more liberal churches who would welcome someone who was openly gay or bisexual, so it might be a case of finding one of them, or googling to see if there are any in her area which might be more suited to her.
Author CardPlay3r Posted February 4, 2007 Author Posted February 4, 2007 I reckon it's not the church itself that matters that much to her but her friends from there, and being accepted because she has alot of self esteem issues. Plus we all know how religion can brainwash someone...those are good things you said, I know you're big on bible contradictions, care to write some more so she won't get to believing that book is written by god etc.
Author CardPlay3r Posted February 4, 2007 Author Posted February 4, 2007 Oh yeah, and she said jesus said "having a relationship with someone of the own sex is against his will", is this accurate, does it say so in that bible thing? I'm not familiar with it so I wouldn't know...
johan Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 I don't see it as religious brainwashing really. What I see is her whole approach is fouled up. She wants to have a fringe, far left life-style, but still fit into a far-right institution. Of course this is going to result in conflict. If she wants peace she has a choice to make: she can keep the lifestyle or she can keep the church/friends. The likelihood that she can have both is pretty low. As far as the things her church friends are saying, those are typical statements. It's what they believe, and it's not wrong for them to live a life in compliance with those beliefs. But it isn't what she agrees with, and so they aren't going to approve. You can be idealistic if you want and think that they shouldn't be hassling her. And God loves her, and that's all that matters. But they aren't ideal humans, and she's getting what they have to offer. Good or bad. Like I said, she has a choice to make. There are probably churches she could find where her alternative lifestyle isn't going to be judged as harshly.
bluetuesday Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 Plus we all know how religion can brainwash someone...those are good things you said, I know you're big on bible contradictions, care to write some more so she won't get to believing that book is written by god etc. oh my friend, if only it were that easy. the reason there are so many fundamental christians in the world (or fundamental anythings) is because despite any and all arguments, if people want to believe that the bible is the total and complete word of god there is genuinely nothing you can do to change their mind. pointing out all the innacuracies won't do it. pointing out the differences in the translations won't do it. telling them it was written by men who sometimes made mistakes won't do it. i know, i have tried all of these things and mostly it has just annoyed people. to my knowledge, nothing i have ever said about christianity has made any difference to those people who hold deep-seated fundamental beliefs. i have found that the only way people begin to see through their beliefs is if something within them nags away at them, a little that voice that keeps saying 'hold on...?' it is only this willingness to question something yourself that will make the difference. so i think it would be futile to give you examples because i have learned that using them is actually counter-productive. people are free to believe anything you and i might be able to see is illogical and until they are able to look at something from an objective pov (which they can't do while they are refusing to question their faith) they will remain thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong/influenced by the devil. by all means tell her that the bible isn't the literal word of god. tell her it was written down by people years after the events in it took place, that it is based on oral traditions not word-for-word accounts, that it contains many contradictions and that jesus expressly spoke out against making a written law the basis of your faith. but don't expect to be successful. if her faith is strong or she is fearful of going to hell (grrrrrrr!), you won't get anywhere i'm afraid. Oh yeah, and she said jesus said "having a relationship with someone of the own sex is against his will", is this accurate, does it say so in that bible thing? I'm not familiar with it so I wouldn't know... this isn't a black and white issue. as far as the bible goes, it's inaccurate. there is nothing in the bible where jesus is quoted as saying homosexuality is evil, or where he makes any comment about it whatsoever. some gay people or gay supporters like to use that to their advantage to say that it must mean jesus was supportive of homosexuality. but then jesus didn't say child molestation was evil either, so it's pretty much a given that jesus not commenting about a topic can't be taken as his approval of it. the new testament references about homosexuality were made by st paul, and they don't look kindly on it. so if it's specific biblical assurances she's after, she won't find them. and johan is right, she can't have her cake and eat it. she has chosen a church where homosexuality is frowned upon. she can't therefore expect to be accepted there while in a homosexual relationship. she has a choice about which church she goes to and which friends she makes at that church. right now her choices are incompatible. try to get her to see this, at least.
taiko Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Oh yeah, and she said jesus said "having a relationship with someone of the own sex is against his will", is this accurate, does it say so in that bible thing? I'm not familiar with it so I wouldn't know... Not same sex relationship specific but John 14:21 "Whoever hads my commands and obeys them, he is the one that loves me. He who loves me is loved by the Father and I too will love him and show myself to him" To the fundamentalist those commands include what is written in the Old Testament which would forbide a sexual relationship with the same sex, animals, etc. Jesus showing his divinity is a seperate act and greater then just receiving salvation by having faith in Him.
phyrespryte Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 I don't think there's anything you can say to change her mind. Besides she's 15. I'm sure she'll grow out of it and develop her own opinions eventually.
Pyro Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Ok, so I have an online friend, she's 15 and bisexual she got a girlfriend recently, and her "church friends" went on about how it's wrong how it "makes god angry" and crap like that, one idiot even saying "I know I'll go to heaven, hope I'll see you there". Good one moron glad you know where you'll spend eternity, know next week lottery numbers too? :rolleyes: Anyway so now she wants to break up with her new gf because of those lame concepts that it's so wrog and it makes god have a tantrum or whatever, my question is what can I say to convince her otherwise? I feel it's a very wrong thing to do and that she'll regret it alot. Some links on this subject would help if anyone has any....oh, and if you're a religious freak please refrain from replying, I know it's hard but maybe you can fight the temptation... I would just ask them "Have you personally talked to God about this? Are you 100% sure that he is against this?" Of course the answer is no. No one knows the absolute truth of what is right and wrong. What we believe is right and wrong differs amongst us, so who for sure can say that God disapproves of something? It all boils down to what each of us believes in and we'll find out, IMO come physical death on earth what is acceptable and what is not, so until then, if I were her, I would tell those people to buzz off because IMO, only God can judge us.
Storyrider Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 To answer your question about where this is mentioned in the bible, it is in the OT, Leviticus. Interestingly, these quotes only seem to refer to male homosexual behavior. DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking the biblical side on this issue. I'm just telling you where the quotes are. Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."
burning 4 revenge Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 ................................................
Author CardPlay3r Posted February 5, 2007 Author Posted February 5, 2007 Well e-mailed her she hasn't made a decision yet I hope it will be the right one...thanks everyone for their advice, except b4r whose advice was useless somehow..not much wonder there though lol
tragicglands Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 ................................................ Brilliant. Have faith in her to make the right decision for her. Couldn't have said it better.
lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Hi, I am religious freak, AND fundamental christian, since this is free speech board, I could not help... First God love everyone, and each of us make mistakes. and God will not hate us because of certain mistakes we made, and God always welcome you back to HIM. I don't know if God allow people do all things they would like to do. but that's right, Jesus said "let the one who did not sin cast the first stone". so it's not good for Christians to judge others. But it is true in Bible there written somethings Christians should not do, because those things bring destruction to self. something in the beginning seems all good and sweet, and end of the tunnel is destruction. maybe her friend tried to tell her "I am right back of you if you need me, but I don't agree with your certain action"? I think everybody need true friends in their life. but I don't trust the ones always agree with me even when I do something wrong
Author CardPlay3r Posted February 5, 2007 Author Posted February 5, 2007 *sigh* I know it's a free speech board but I asked specifically not to, doesn't your jesus teach you good manners? See that's how religion can get wrong, it can ruin people's happiness, they're not hurting anyone by being together yet you say it will "bring destruction" Meh whatever, now go away
lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 *sigh* I know it's a free speech board but I asked specifically not to, doesn't your jesus teach you good manners? See that's how religion can get wrong, it can ruin people's happiness, they're not hurting anyone by being together yet you say it will "bring destruction" Meh whatever, now go away sorry, as you wish:)
taiko Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Well e-mailed her she hasn't made a decision yet I hope it will be the right one...thanks everyone for their advice, except b4r whose advice was useless somehow..not much wonder there though lol I would offer cation in one asspect. I know you see yourself as the brave counter-programer of the supersitious little girl, but she is a girl. It is not "the church" you are fighting, she still has to develope her beliefs. most likely it is her parents who take her to church and their youth activities as a statement of their faith and/or in an attempt to protect her from online predators and other dangers of the world. Your actions fit the theology that she is being taught in church. At 15 I wiould not be so fast to accept a girls self identification as bi-sexual. Outside of the church with things like Girls gone Wild, Miss USA, Paris Hilton etc she sees that lesbianism is chic, it even attracts boys.
taiko Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Well e-mailed her she hasn't made a decision yet I hope it will be the right one...thanks everyone for their advice, except b4r whose advice was useless somehow..not much wonder there though lol I would offer cation in one aspect. I know you see yourself as the brave counter-programer of the supersitious little girl, but she is a girl. It is not "the church" you are fighting, she still has to develope her beliefs. most likely it is her parents who take her to church and their youth activities as a statement of their faith and/or in an attempt to protect her from online predators and other dangers of the world. Your actions fit the theology that she is being taught in church. At 15 I wiould not be so fast to accept a girls self identification as bi-sexual. Outside of the church with things like Girls gone Wild, Miss USA, Paris Hilton etc she sees that lesbianism is chic, it even attracts boys.
RecordProducer Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Anyway so now she wants to break up with her new gf because of those lame concepts that it's so wrog and it makes god have a tantrum or whatever, my question is what can I say to convince her otherwise? I feel it's a very wrong thing to do and that she'll regret it alot. I agree with you completely and salute your open-mindedness. What you can do is to tell her the following: 1. Running away from the actions won't change her feelings and desires so if she is bad for doing it, she is still bad for wanting it. 2. God should understand, tolerate, forgive, and love the actions that don't hurt anyone, but only bring joy to people. If she can love someone in a different way, it's still love and a good thing. 3. Who can tell what God approves of? We are all his creatures. He made us the way we are and the bad ones are punished, cuz God made sure that there is justice for the evil. But God made people understand that gay is OK and we should follow the path of social evolution and accept the new trend - that gay is OK, because if God didn't want it that way, he wouldn't have led us to this conclusion after so much struggle. 4. It's PEOPLE who discriminate against gays, not God. And people are evil hypocrites. The bible is out-of-date, it's people who wrote the bible, and what priests say is not what God says. Throughout the history of humanity, people have murdered and done horrific things in the name of religion so people can't be trusted when they speak in the name of God. 5. God resides in your heart and if you know in your heart that you've done nothing wrong, who has the privilege to tell you what's right and what's wrong? 6. Finally, the rules that were set long time ago had some meanign at that time. For example, getting married as a virgin made a lot of sense when birth control didn't exist. Frankly, if I didn't know how to protect myself from pregnancy (didn't know about fertile days or anything) and I weren't married, I wouldn't have sex at all. Plus all the STD's couldn't be treated in those days. Nowadays, it doesn't make much sense because of birth control, antibiotics, and condoms. The mindset of people changed with medicine and technology changes. Same with homosexuality; family was highly valued and gays didn't fit in that model. And people have this trait to judge and discard morally everything that's different and that they can't comprehend. Besides, God doesn't exist... but don't tell her that. She might be surprised!
Author CardPlay3r Posted February 5, 2007 Author Posted February 5, 2007 Thanks RP you make some good points but I already sent the e-mail don't want to be nagging so I guess we have to wait and see...
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