BurriedAlive Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 I have been thinking.... Do you think that because we are OWs "waiting" for our MM to get his act together and make a committment to us is in fact having the opposite affect??? What about wanting what you can't have? Is this what makes our love stronger for MM? Is it because we can't have him that makes us want him more??? Is it because we are always there and MM knows it that he takes things for granted? Just wondering what you guys think of this theory. It seems like the less attention I give MM, the more I get.
hardknocks Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 oh it's completely possible and probably part of the equation. there is a psychological principle from congnitive dissonance that the more you work for something the more you want it, and the more valuable it seems to you. This is the only way our brains can justify our actions. So you spent a week, a month, a year, a decade chasing something that keeps eluding you - the only justification is that it is something pretty damn special. The truth is though that the real value of that object has not increased even though your desire for it has. So maybe you finally get what you are working for and if that reward isn't equal to the effort you put into it... you're in trouble (more dissonance).
GreenEyedLady Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 I have been thinking.... Do you think that because we are OWs "waiting" for our MM to get his act together and make a committment to us is in fact having the opposite affect??? What about wanting what you can't have? Is this what makes our love stronger for MM? Is it because we can't have him that makes us want him more??? Is it because we are always there and MM knows it that he takes things for granted? Just wondering what you guys think of this theory. It seems like the less attention I give MM, the more I get. As for OW waiting, if my MM left his W with ABSOLUTELY no thought put into it, I'd be rather put off by that... To me if you're wanting what you can't have, that's not really love, that's just a competition...and I want no part of a competition... Now, I do kinda agree with us being there MM has no real motivation to change...why do something hard, when you can keep going without making waves...
BUTAFLY Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 Thrill of the chase for who? the ow or the mm?
Author BurriedAlive Posted January 28, 2007 Author Posted January 28, 2007 Thrill of the chase for who? the ow or the mm? From both perspectives....
Babybird Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 Very interesting HK. A lot of good points that have never crossed my mind. What about the love portion? OW seems to fall completely, hopelessly, soul mate, in love with the MM. The feeling seems to be so much more intense than in a regular relationship. Are these feelings intensified for the same reasons? The competion, the chase, the want. And is that supposed to mean that none of the feelings, the love, between OW and MM are real? It's all imagined because of the desperate need to have him all to herself. To prove that he loves her enough to leave his W? When he leaves the the chase is over, the feelings dissolve, and game over. Just some of my own speculations following the questions. What do you think?
norajane Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 And is that supposed to mean that none of the feelings, the love, between OW and MM are real? It's all imagined because of the desperate need to have him all to herself. To prove that he loves her enough to leave his W? When he leaves the the chase is over, the feelings dissolve, and game over. I've given this a lot of thought, since I tend to fall for men that can't be mine for one reason or another. The love is real, not imagined, but its impact is heightened because of the surrounding circumstances...what I call the Romeo and Juliet effect, star crossed lovers willing to kill themselves rather than be without each other. If Romeo and Juliet had no family issues keeping them apart, perhaps they would have married and ended up wanting to kill each other. "To prove he loves her enough to leave his W": I would rephrase that to ask, "to prove he loves me SO MUCH that he would EVEN leave his wife for me?" I consider that an intimacy issue on my part. I need to feel really secure in someone's love for me, so I need them to jump through all kinds of hoops to be with me. "When he leaves, chase is done, game over": For me, that's a fear of commitment issue. I lose interest if I can have them. I'm attracted to people who are unsuitable in some way because I'm not so sure I can handle commitment. So, once I have them, my interest wanes.
GreenEyedLady Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 What about the love portion? OW seems to fall completely, hopelessly, soul mate, in love with the MM. The feeling seems to be so much more intense than in a regular relationship. Are these feelings intensified for the same reasons? The competion, the chase, the want. And is that supposed to mean that none of the feelings, the love, between OW and MM are real? It's all imagined because of the desperate need to have him all to herself. To prove that he loves her enough to leave his W? When he leaves the the chase is over, the feelings dissolve, and game over./quote] I think that these questions are ones that are pointing to when it's not love... The assertion that the R is so much more intense, I don't really buy...how many R with two single partners are intense, just take a look at other forums at LS...a great many of them...In my personal situation, I did not know that he was married in the beginning, and my feelings were just as strong before I knew and the R as intense...This is the way it is when you connect with someone on so many levels... But love is not about competition or chase or want...Love is kind and compassionate and unselfish...so that is what I feel for mine...I don't want him to end his M so I win, I want him to end his M so that he is happy (as he says that he is unhappy)... "And the desperate need to have him all to herself," isn't that what we hear people who don't agree with A's (which I must say I don't agree with them either, I wish married people would deal with their marital problems or get out of the M) say on here everyday? "You have no self-esteem how can you share?"...It's not desperate to want what you deserve (someone to call your own)... As for whether it is love between the MM and OW, it varies...some OW are in it for the reasons you describe, and some of us, the majority on LS, are here because we do LOVE them and we know they LOVE us back...however, we are not children anymore and sometimes love is not enough and that is where the struggle and the heartache comes in... And if you believe that you "win" if he leaves, you're not in it for love...
pricillia Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 Very interesting HK. A lot of good points that have never crossed my mind. What about the love portion? OW seems to fall completely, hopelessly, soul mate, in love with the MM. The feeling seems to be so much more intense than in a regular relationship. Are these feelings intensified for the same reasons? The competion, the chase, the want. And is that supposed to mean that none of the feelings, the love, between OW and MM are real? It's all imagined because of the desperate need to have him all to herself. To prove that he loves her enough to leave his W? When he leaves the the chase is over, the feelings dissolve, and game over. Just some of my own speculations following the questions. What do you think? No I do not think that if he is married it makes you want him more, not for me anyway. I will come clean and remind everyone that the reason I came to the shack is because I was having sex with a MM for about 9 months but in a way I despised him, I did not want him to be in a relationship at all, I had been alone for 5 years and I said yes to his long time advances. Then I met my current( recently xmm) I did not know he was married and I fell in love with him, when I found out I was furious and hurt, I was not looking to be with another MM, I was ready for a relationship, that is why I decided to date him, becuase there was something so unique about him, something special, the married part had nothing to do with it. I stayed for another 5 months knowing he was married becuase I was and still am in love, not because the wanting was greater because of the equasion. For me it is not the chase it is the desire to please and peak interest and have fun and be genuine.
Babybird Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 The love is real, not imagined, but its impact is heightened because of the surrounding circumstances...what I call the Romeo and Juliet effect, star crossed lovers willing to kill themselves rather than be without each other. If Romeo and Juliet had no family issues keeping them apart, perhaps they would have married and ended up wanting to kill each other. I agree. I think each time you fall in love it's a different type of love. Sometimes it's so intense it knocks you off your feet, and other times its slow and comfortable right from the beginning. My MM has me head over heels and I can honestly say it's a different type of love than I've ever experienced. GEL: I think I was trying to phrase my questions to understand what was HK was saying. I didn't mean it was love, just asking clarifying questions! P.S. I'm not in it to win. I know everytime I look at my MM I feel like all this time I was waiting for my life to start and when I met him it did. He woke something up in me I thought was dead. As hard as I resisted I couldn't help but love him. So much for that wall!!
Guest Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 I was thinking about a related concept...I used to get so frustrated wondering how my xMM (well, he has a girlfriend, he isn't married) must construct all these excuses to himself, for justifying staying with his girlfriend, as all of his friends speculate that he is just too scared to leave the security and he talks a lot about 'knowing' he has to end it because she's the wrong girl (but he never does) - but I don;t think he'd ever want to admit to himself that it's cowardice holding him back from ending it! In his case, him and his girlf have had virtually no physical relationship for years, and don't seem to have any similar interests...they get on OK, and thats about it, and they don't have kids, so why are they still a couple? But then it made me think, when I was involved with him - maybe he kind of has the same denial I had at the time? I.e. that I was involved with a totally unsuitable guy (i.e. he has a girlfriend!!), but I was in denial of that fact that he seemed so scared to leave all that security, and I would make excuses to myself about why I should stay and give him chance after chance-because, lets face it, I ws scared of ending it, as I'd miss him so much, etc - for a while I'd rather have him and the security of knowing he was in my life - but at such a cost, so I guess I was in denial to allow myself to carry on - it's possible to really persuade yourself of a lot of things if you try hard enough, to justify something you know shouldn't really behappening - and of course, once you've gone through the hard part of ending it-eventually life gets SO much better - but its facing that hard part thats so difficult. So, itnt it possible that this is what the MM does to justify staying with his wife when really he knows he should have gone a long time ago?? What do you guys think? Do OW and MM sometimes act in the same way in that respect?
GreenEyedLady Posted January 28, 2007 Posted January 28, 2007 GEL: I think I was trying to phrase my questions to understand what was HK was saying. I didn't mean it was love, just asking clarifying questions! P.S. I'm not in it to win. I know everytime I look at my MM I feel like all this time I was waiting for my life to start and when I met him it did. He woke something up in me I thought was dead. As hard as I resisted I couldn't help but love him. So much for that wall!! I didn't mean you personally, BB...I just meant that anyone in it for those type of reasons aren't in it for love...
Author BurriedAlive Posted January 28, 2007 Author Posted January 28, 2007 All your answers are very interesting. The reason why I brought it up is my MM always asks why I would want a 45 year old man with two kids when I can do so much better. He asks "is it because you can't have me that you want me?" He's right. I know I can do so much better. I guess I am just trying to look at it another way. I would give anything not to love him.
GreenEyedLady Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 All your answers are very interesting. The reason why I brought it up is my MM always asks why I would want a 45 year old man with two kids when I can do so much better. He asks "is it because you can't have me that you want me?" He's right. I know I can do so much better. I guess I am just trying to look at it another way. I would give anything not to love him. Hmmm...what's wrong with being in your forties and having children? What's better? While I agree, not married is better, I think maybe he just has an issue with his age...
addicted2love Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 What if the MM/MW/OM/OW are high school sweethearts that never got over each other. Both feel they married the wrong person, never stopped loving one another...etc. Is that still thrill of the chase? I know everyone says they feel their situation is different....I do to. In my case this is someone I've known for 17 years. Not someone I just met and fell in love with. I've ALWAYS known I was in love with this man and I left him for stubborn selfish reasons...thought he hated me...only to find out years later that couldn't be further from the truth. Is this different?
hardknocks Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 What about the love portion? My quick opinions. And I will re-phrase your question a tad.... Q. Can psychology be used to explain away love and the actions it produces? A. I guess it would depend on your definition of love. Mine would be something like the sum of biological and psychological factors combined with social mores and norms produce what we call love. So, psychology, like cognitive dissonance theorys (as well as others) explain a lot of the reasons we act the way we do. Ever wonder why it feels like you are dying when you break up? Think about this... "Nothing in life is more imortant than love because nothing less than the survival of our species is at stake." A. Schopenhauer
Babybird Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 BA: My guy is 43. i'm thirty. I love the age difference. The maturity. Guys my age are usually a**holes. Addicted: I think, and this is my spiritual type opinion, that there is a reason you got together after all that time. HK: Just out of curiosity are you a psycholigists or just very well read. I'm going to have to look into CDT's. It fascinating. That quote makes complete sense!
HappyHappy Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 babybird wrote: "What about the love portion? OW seems to fall completely, hopelessly, soul mate, in love with the MM. The feeling seems to be so much more intense than in a regular relationship" I think I have an explaination for this...we all say that the MM is THE love of our lives. That completely, hopless soul mate love. Perhaps this is because we were real and honest and just totally ourselves with MM from day one? No matter how confident any of us are today, we all went through the period years ago while dating of "trying to be perfect so he'll like me" phase. In other "dating situations" we kept up certain guards until we felt it was safe to let them down...over time...one by one and sometimes after all of that the guy didnt like us or things just didnt work out. (That leaves a bit of scar) I can remember dating way back when, and putting a bit of censor on what I would even talk about and how...for example if I was on a date with a guy who didnt go to college, I was on guard to not talk too much about my college experience, major, degree etc., so that I wouldnt make him feel akward or inferior. So, thinking back on it those situations were doomed from the start. With the MM everything is out in the open and brutally honest from day one...no guards up on information because your not looking at this person as a potential mate/SO. I think this is why the relationships with MM get so "serious" and intense so fast. I think with MM the relationships grow at a rate of 3-1 compared to dating a single person. Meaning in 3 months with a MM youre in the same place you might be in 9 months of dating a single guy (emotionally). With MM everything is out in the open....no games, no guard up, just totally being yourself. Just being able to totally be yourself and open about everything, and not judged by it is wonderful. MM isnt judging, he's listening and getting to know you. Before you know it, WHAM youre in love, and its so intense because this person just simply loves you for you with all of your cards on the table. Many people dont even get this from family members. I think the MM passes fewer judgements on you than anyone else in your life and that in itself is intoxicating. (Disclaimer: Im referring to the real relationships....Im of course not talking about the MM who is on the singles dating site and screwing around with a few women...... )
hardknocks Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 nope not a psychologist. i was a sociology and philosophy major before i became an engineer.. if you think about it it makes sense.. i'm interested in how things work ;-) i think saying that the sensation of love is intensified when you are in an affair is a little debatable. how many people every day run off to las vegas to get a quickie marriage after only knowing somebody for a brief amount of time? i had a room mate that met a woman once at a party and almost LITERALLY spent the next month glued to her side, 3 months later married. That's what you call swept off your feet! (2 years later divorced) but to keep with the theme here of biology and psychology playing a large subconscious part in all of love (not just affairs).. subconsciously our bodies are designed to do what is necessary to propogate the species.. we fall in love because it give humans the best chance of survival. when we leave our love it hurts because to your body and mind - you are literally fighting for survival. in an affair, we are "fighting for our survival" from the start! which explains why it feels so intense.. our mind is releasing chemicals estrogen and testosterone, dopamine, norepinephrine, oxytocin, endorphins - (it's a regular love cocktail!) to get us to get in a relationship and reproduce. And guess what - your mind does NOT give a care about our man made rules, and Judeo-Christian beliefs. We're animals ;-)! So, why is it so intense? We are fighting for our perceived survival. Why does it hurt when we try to leave? We're going through withdrawl. Why do we feel giddy? Why can't we sleep? Why can't we eat? Why does our skin blush? Why do we tremble? - there's a biological answer for all of it. i think it's really important to understanding this entire love/affair thing. It's the first step. So now on top of that.. let's add in the psychological aspects (like we talked about), throw in a set of personal issues and you can see why it is just not as simple sometimes as just saying 'no' to temptation, or just simply walking away from somebody that treats us poorly. and to me the biological part here is the fact that is set in stone. the rest of it, the idea of romantic love, or judeo-christian love only complicates matters more! now your upbringing and society are telling you conflicting things (dissonance) to what your body is feeling .. it's a cluster F. ;-) (pardon) maybe there should be a new thread called .. what is love?
hardknocks Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 oh yeah.. and you wonder WHY you like the scent of that T-shirt he was wearing so much??!?!?!?
IfWishesWereHorses Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Well said HK! This feeling, all of the talk about "addiction" is PHYSIOLOGICAL. Nothing more than natures way to ensure that the species survives and evolves. Dorothy Tennov had an interesting book called "Love and Limmerence". Actually it lasts about 2-3 years unless unrequitted or a situation such as an affair, it can last many longer. The much higher levels of oxtocyn in women actually aid us in remaining monogamous and staying "home" to raise our young. Yes, its very primal and animalistic! It really has not much at all to do with "love".
hardknocks Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 welllllll.. again I gues it would be how you define Love! I wouldn't trivialize the 'human' part (it IS why we are all here today). The sensations of love are universal - go around the world, all humans feel this way no matter what society you are from. Now, some of the other thoughts that we attribute to love .. like love is a set of actions and attitudes (being good to each other, believing in each other, no cheating, etc.) those are sociological and personal expectations. Some of the things we find so offensive here.. like having a wife and a mistress are NORMAL and right in other societies! (heck President François Mitterrand’s funeral in 1996.. his wife, daighter and mistress were there!) and what about arranged marriages or polygamy? What I feel people should say is when they say.. "S/he doesn't love you..." on ls .. should probably be phrased... "S/he doesn't fit your EXPECTATIONS or North American norms in the year 2007 (they change over time) even though they feel the physical sensations of love"... And again .. don't discount the physical sensations of love - when things are going right it is a big part of the reason some can mate for life.
addicted2love Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 BA: My guy is 43. i'm thirty. I love the age difference. The maturity. Guys my age are usually a**holes. Addicted: I think, and this is my spiritual type opinion, that there is a reason you got together after all that time. HK: Just out of curiosity are you a psycholigists or just very well read. I'm going to have to look into CDT's. It fascinating. That quote makes complete sense! I too am one who thinks spiritually....I guess that is why this is all so difficult for me. I always want to know why! What is the reason he contacted me in the first place...why can't we seem to get over each other..etc. I want to understand the reason for all of these things and many more things regarding my situation. As I look for answers I come up empty. All I can think of is that we are meant to be. If we can't let each other go after all these years wouldn't that indicate that we should be together?
hardknocks Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 crap i always post and realize i forgot something ;-) the above is not to condone or justify affairs. my interest lies mainly with the mechanics of why we all get STUCK in affairs or bad relationships. Bottom line is there's a lot of crap running through our bodies and heads when it comes to love (all types). It's no wonder we are confused and bumbling! It's no wonder that wars as well as affairs have all been born out of love. It's tough stuff to understand. And my personal belief - if you're in a bad situation now... CUT YOURSELF SOME SLACK ;-) keep working on getting it to where you want it.. but trust me.. you aint alone, not even close.
Author BurriedAlive Posted January 29, 2007 Author Posted January 29, 2007 oh yeah.. and you wonder WHY you like the scent of that T-shirt he was wearing so much??!?!?!? OMG. My MM has this smell that makes me want to rip off all his clothes. It's completely by accident too. He doesn't wear colones or anything. Maybe it's his wife laundry detergent! The age thing definitively has something to do with it. He's 45 and I'm 29. He doesn't act of look like any other 45 year I know, though. I just love him so much and I want to stop, just like any other addict. THanks HK for all the interesting input.
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