Stupid Philosophies

[flowergirl]

So, my boyfriend and I are fighting something vicious over our philosophies in life. I'm on the verge of breaking up with him because of our differences. My mother is very demanding, aggressive and controlling and since I live under her roof right now, as well as work at the organization she runs, I feel I need to deal with that and not make waves, so as to keep the peace. Actually, that's my take on my relationship with her in general, to not argue back, and avoid her if things get too rough. I'm a people pleaser, and firmly believe in putting other people first, good karma and all that. On the other hand, my boyfriend is more of a free spirit, and has this ridiculous, childish, and naive philosophy that no one should sacrifice who they are, repress their feelings or be fake at any moment just so others will be happy with you. The man is 26 going on 27, and he deeply believes this. He thinks I should tell my mother how I feel when I feel it, and not keep quiet. He'll behave himself at parties, and in front o f my family, but he hates having to do it. I come from a background where people sacrifice themselves all the time for the sake of propriety and staying in good graces and all that, and I can't imagine living any other way. I find nothing wrong with adapting one's personality to suit the situation, or just going with the staus quo in life. What do you guys think about all this?

[revolutionphilosophy]

So, my boyfriend and I are fighting something vicious over our philosophies in life. I'm on the verge of breaking up with him because of our differences. My mother is very demanding, aggressive and controlling and since I live under her roof right now, as well as work at the organization she runs, I feel I need to deal with that and not make waves, so as to keep the peace. Actually, that's my take on my relationship with her in general, to not argue back, and avoid her if things get too rough. I'm a people pleaser, and firmly believe in putting other people first, good karma and all that. On the other hand, my boyfriend is more of a free spirit, and has this ridiculous, childish, and naive philosophy that no one should sacrifice who they are, repress their feelings or be fake at any moment just so others will be happy with you. The man is 26 going on 27, and he deeply believes this. He thinks I should tell my mother how I feel when I feel it, and not keep quiet. He'll behave himself at parties, and in front o f my family, but he hates having to do it. I come from a background where people sacrifice themselves all the time for the sake of propriety and staying in good graces and all that, and I can't imagine living any other way. I find nothing wrong with adapting one's personality to suit the situation, or just going with the staus quo in life. What do you guys think about all this?

 

Man... for a second I thought you were talking about me.

 

Obviously your mother doesn't sacrifice herself for the sake of staying in good graces... who's good graces could possibly more important than those of her child? You've just told us that she's demanding, aggressive and controlling... that's not a very positive view!

 

I guess I have the same ridiculous, naive, childish view that you should be who you are... and that you should be real with people. Sure you have to adapt your personality to suit a situation at times (and obviously he's doing that by 'behaving' as you say it)... but going with the status quo? Never. I go with what I think is RIGHT... not what everyone else says is RIGHT. How many atrocities in history could have been avoided if people took a stand for what THEY believed in...

 

The status quo for Nazi Germany's affairs was to persecute, torture and kill millions of Jewish people. Would you have gone along with that? You just said yes... b/c you believe in following the popular opinion.

 

How is it childish and naive to believe that each person should be an individual and stand up for what they believe in?

 

I agree with your boyfriend. Whole-heartedly. You can't live your life pretending to be someone you're not... it will only make you miserable. Look at how it's already affected your relationship with your mother. Your view on her seems to be *VERY* negative... but perhaps if you confronted her and got out some of these negative feelings -- you could work on a healthier and more positive relationship with her.

 

That's just me though. I'm sorry if my words offend you... but I am very strongly against people being sheep and falling in line because it's the thing to do.

 

[flowergirl]

Hey, Revolution, what an appropriate username you have! Anyway, I understand what you're saying, but I'm just so not used to remotely thinking that way, and can't relate or even begin to put my head around that train of thought. It sounds so selfish and irresponsible. It's not the 60's anymore, buck it up and move on. Anyway, my boyfriend's philosophy goes so far as to either avoid or leave early from social situations where he feels that he has to "perform", that's how "real" he is. Maybe it's the suburban girl in me, but for the most part in the upper-middle class suburban culture, it's ingrained that there are certain rules, norms and behaviors to follow once you're an adult, which will make you a normal, respectable part of society. You pay your taxes, you find a good career, blah, blah, blah. One of those is to regularly have dinner parties and have social functions with friends and family, another would be not to yell and act a fool in public, and another one is that in this suburban culture, you don't really talk much about your feelings and you don't make a big fuss about them. And a person would never consider not staying all the way through a social function just because it's not their type of crowd. But suburbanites only stick with their own anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem. Up until now, I would never have considered having a long-term relationship with someone who didn't wanna go to or stay at a party or social function because they were too "real", there's no such concept in the suburban culture, we suck it and go to parties, and see our families at regularly designated intervals, but this guy is cool. So, what do you think?

[tanbark813]

There are pros and cons to both your philosophy on life and your bf's but neither one is "correct". They are what they are. The bigger problem is that you consider your bf's philosophy on life to be stupid and childish. There may be instances where he behaves childishly, in your opinion, but you can't change someone's belief system nor should you try.

 

You'll either need to accept your bf's views on life as they are or it will continue to create problems. If you can't accept your bf as is, then dump him and find someone who's as tightly wound as you are.

[Walk]

Are you happy with this way of life? Or is that "just who you are", but it sometimes makes you feel resentful, upset, angry?

 

Do you find yourself thinking "I shouldn't have to do this", or "Why do I have to do this"?

 

If you're honestly happy with it, then great. If you haven't had a single thought that maybe you're getting used, or that the person is taking you for granted, or taking too much from you, then stick with it...

 

If you have.. then you not only hurting yourself, but you hurting others by continuing to delude yourself that you're doing the right thing.

 

I think you're somewhat jealous of your bf's mentality. I think that's why you're fighting him so hard on this. If you acknowledge that you're potentially harming yourself by being this way, then you would be forced to change. You would have to alter a fundamental belief, and that's hard.

 

You demean your bf by calling his ideology "immature". He's not immature for thinking that way. It actually shows strength and confidence. To be able to tell others no is a sign of a healthy mentality. To disagree in a civil way is healthy. To argue with your bf over this isn't wrong... to argue that he's wrong, is. Why aren't you attempting to understand his philosophy instead of dismissing it? Some traits of people pleasing are good. Too much is unhealthy though. Some traits of being the "free spirit" are good, too much can be a negative. From what you described of your bf, he doesnt sound as if he has too much. But the way you described yourself, it does sound as if you possess too much of the "people pleaser" traits. Can you keep an open mind long enough to entertain the notion you might be too easily swayed and pushed in any direction? Maybe humor your bf and ask him quesitons about how being less like that makes him feel, how it helps him, what situations that's good for, and when not to be that way? Is there a posibility that maybe you two could discuss it to learn, rather to point fingers and yell "you're wrong" back and forth?

[flowergirl]

Tanbark, you are my favorite boy on the Internet, oh wise one, seriously, 'tis true. You're right about neither way of thinking being "correct or "incorrect", I've come to undersand that now, where as before, I thought my boyfriend was a stubborn, immature little brat. (well, sometimes he is, actually! Lol) Anyway, now that I understand more clearly what his philosophy is, I have to work my ass off to accomodate it. Whoa, I've never thought of myself as tightly wound, I always thought of those around me as tightly wound but not me, but it's always true that we need outside observers to truly show us who we truly are. I just wish I knew how to be free-spirited. It might be nice for a change, who knows.

[lindya]

I feel I need to deal with that and not make waves, so as to keep the peace. Actually, that's my take on my relationship with her in general, to not argue back, and avoid her if things get too rough. I'm a people pleaser, and firmly believe in putting other people first, good karma and all that. On the other hand, my boyfriend is more of a free spirit, and has this ridiculous, childish, and naive philosophy that no one should sacrifice who they are, repress their feelings or be fake at any moment just so others will be happy with you. The man is 26 going on 27, and he deeply believes this.

 

I wonder if the differences between the two of you are reinforcing eachother. For example, the more he sees you sitting back and taking whatever your mother dishes out, the more he feels like rebelling against that "keeping the peace" attitude. The more he talks about being yourself and not repressing your feelings, the more you maybe have to justify to him (and maybe to yourself as well) the need to keep repressing things under a polite smile if that's what it takes to prevent too much conflict.

 

My impression is that you don't feel your boyfriend is realistic in his outlook, and that might be the case. We all have times when we have to be pleasant to someone who's pissing us off, but do it too much and all kinds of anger starts bubbling up and warping your perceptions of things.

 

Whatever his feelings about this, your boyfriend respects you and the relationship sufficiently to go along with the "keeping the peace" approach at family get-togethers. That's a compromise on his part, and hopefully one you're appreciative of. I realise that if you've been used to spending your whole life biting your tongue and not saying what you really think, someone else having to do it for a couple of hours might not seem like a big deal. Think about it from another angle: Let's say your boyfriend takes you to one of his family outings, and warns you in advance:

 

"you really need to be ready for this. My family are totally forthright and say whatever's on their mind, and some people get pretty insulted by it. If you don't give back as good as you get, they'll eat you alive - so be sure and stick up for yourself!"

 

For you, that would mean going against the grain. Behaving in a way you're not comfortable with - just as your bf isn't too comfortable sitting back saying nothing when your mother's being demanding and controlling.

 

You're considering ditching this relationship, and it sounds to me like one of the reasons is that your bf is trying to push you out of your comfort zone. Challenging you about an aspect of your behaviour (ie the biting your tongue/hiding your feelings thing) - and it's always hard when people do that to you. On the other hand, people grow and develop character as a result of being taken out of their comfort zones from time to time,

 

From what you're saying about your bf, it sounds like he might be trying to urge you towards dealing with things in a more open way, rather than bottling things up your tongue and maybe getting unnecessarily stressed out as a result. Rather than fighting with him about it, or feeling that who you are is under attack, maybe you could try bouncing a few ideas off him as to how you could learn to assert your views (and, perhaps, your rights) a bit more, in ways you feel relatively comfortable with.

[tanbark813]

Tanbark, you are my favorite boy on the Internet,

 

Why thank you.

[flowergirl]

Walk and Lindya, you two are very perceptive, cool beans. Yes, it scares the living s*** out of me to change up, I'm very resistant to change. Him pushing this does take me way out of my comfort zone, wherein I usually just lay low and try to stay under the radar because it's easier. Funny thing is, maybe it's because I'm adopted, don't know, I've never totally fit into my family, and rebel in passive-aggressive ways, because that's the only way I can think of to handle the situation. It's also ironic that I've always dated guys outside of my suburban social realm, because I've never felt that I could relate to being with someone who thought like me and followed all the rules and norms of suburban culture, even though I do. I always felt I'd be unhappy and bored in that kind of relationship, because I look around at most of my parents' friends, and most of them seem generic and boring. However, as Walk mentioned, it's doing me more harm than good, and it's very hard to change these old ways of life. It's difficult and painful right now, and I have no idea where to start. Part of me feels that if I admit that my BF may be right in any way, I'd be giving up more of myself, and I've already done that, and it's easier to do for family than for a relationship. My aunt told me earlier that she disagreed with my BF's philosophy because it's unrealistic, just as Lindya pointed out, and that because my mother's family and I live under her roof, it's respectful to not be confrontational with her, and besides, my family is a group, and as part of the group, we all need each other, and this is coming from a woman who supports me concerning my mother and her behavior.

[revolutionphilosophy]

Hey, Revolution, what an appropriate username you have!

 

 

Of course. I try to bring about change in the human condition on a daily basis... thus revolution (though I admit -- I would've chose [r]evolution had it been available... a name symbolic -to me- of evolution through revolution.

 

 

Anyway, I understand what you're saying, but I'm just so not used to remotely thinking that way, and can't relate or even begin to put my head around that train of thought. It sounds so selfish and irresponsible. It's not the 60's anymore, buck it up and move on. Anyway, my boyfriend's philosophy goes so far as to either avoid or leave early from social situations where he feels that he has to "perform", that's how "real" he is.

 

 

What does the time-frame have to do with anything? Being the 60's or the 80's or the 2020's has nothing to do with being true to yourself. Being honest and real IS being selfish in a sense... it is indeed being concerned with yourself. Your boyfriend is more considerate than I am... I do not 'perform' for anyone... I am who I am... and people will either accept me for who I am... or they will not. I accept everyone else for who they are... even if I do not like certain facets of their personality. They are who they are... and who they are is not my concern (until they are damaging someone I care for).

 

 

Maybe it's the suburban girl in me, but for the most part in the upper-middle class suburban culture, it's ingrained that there are certain rules, norms and behaviors to follow once you're an adult, which will make you a normal, respectable part of society. You pay your taxes, you find a good career, blah, blah, blah. One of those is to regularly have dinner parties and have social functions with friends and family, another would be not to yell and act a fool in public, and another one is that in this suburban culture, you don't really talk much about your feelings and you don't make a big fuss about them. And a person would never consider not staying all the way through a social function just because it's not their type of crowd. But suburbanites only stick with their own anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem.

 

 

Wow... pretention abounds in you girl. You assume that because I refuse to play a role in anyone's world that I must obviously not be upper-middle class. You're wrong. Going through high school, going through college, immediately getting married, having 2.5 children, finding a good career... etc. etc. etc. and then dying having only lived half a life... has nothing to do with social class. It has to do with mindset. Who said I yell and act a fool in public? I actually have better etiquette than the majority of people I meet on a daily basis (I typically address my seniors as sir or ma'am... I hold doors for all people following me into or out of an establishment... I try to avoid slurring my words or swearing at small children... etc.). As a career, I'm a linux geek, I write code in PHP/ASP.net/VB.Net/C# and I also develop web-sites and graphics... sometimes I even play network admin. When I go to work I typically either wear a long-sleeve button-up shirt and a tie... or jeans and a polo depending on what I have to do that day. I've been to numerous business functions and been in social settings with people who have more money/silly material things (and pretention usually) than either you or I will ever have.

 

That said, I don't put on an act or perform for anyone. I remain true to myself above all else -- because where everyone else may fail, I can always depend on myself... so why lie to me? Just because I'm real to myself doesn't mean that I'm lower-class

 

 

Up until now, I would never have considered having a long-term relationship with someone who didn't wanna go to or stay at a party or social function because they were too "real", there's no such concept in the suburban culture, we suck it and go to parties, and see our families at regularly designated intervals, but this guy is cool. So, what do you think?

 

I think maybe you should take a little lesson from him. Maybe just for a day try being honest (it doesn't mean you have to be offensive) with who you are. You may indeed find you enjoy it.

[revolutionphilosophy]

Walk and Lindya, you two are very perceptive, cool beans. Yes, it scares the living s*** out of me to change up, I'm very resistant to change. Him pushing this does take me way out of my comfort zone, wherein I usually just lay low and try to stay under the radar because it's easier.

 

Dear flower... the easier path in life is not always the most enjoyable. I push my girlfriend out of her comfort zone constantly. She has become a more sociable (less shy) and happier person because of it. Trust me... she is WAY more resistent to change than you.

 

Two roads diverged in the wood, and I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. --Robert Frost

 

 

Funny thing is, maybe it's because I'm adopted, don't know, I've never totally fit into my family, and rebel in passive-aggressive ways, because that's the only way I can think of to handle the situation. It's also ironic that I've always dated guys outside of my suburban social realm, because I've never felt that I could relate to being with someone who thought like me and followed all the rules and norms of suburban culture, even though I do.

 

 

With a few sentences you said volumes.

 

 

I always felt I'd be unhappy and bored in that kind of relationship, because I look around at most of my parents' friends, and most of them seem generic and boring.

 

Again.

 

 

However, as Walk mentioned, it's doing me more harm than good, and it's very hard to change these old ways of life. It's difficult and painful right now, and I have no idea where to start. Part of me feels that if I admit that my BF may be right in any way, I'd be giving up more of myself, and I've already done that, and it's easier to do for family than for a relationship. My aunt told me earlier that she disagreed with my BF's philosophy because it's unrealistic, just as Lindya pointed out, and that because my mother's family and I live under her roof, it's respectful to not be confrontational with her, and besides, my family is a group, and as part of the group, we all need each other, and this is coming from a woman who supports me concerning my mother and her behavior.

 

Do you ever stop to think that maybe your boy is urging you to confront your mother with your feelings because he dislikes seeing her treat you in such a manner but he respects her enough not to say "HEY! BACK THE EFF OFF!!!"?

 

Being a little more real and honest with yourself and your feelings is not giving up yourself... it's acknowledging yourself. If someone loves you... should they not encourage you being true to who you are and what you want?

 

Confronting your mother doesn't mean you have to go ballastic and throw chairs at her. You could just tell her that her actions/words when she is _____ really and truly hurt you.

[flowergirl]

Damn, from your post you sound a lot like my BF. Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that upper-middle classdom and the listed behaviors were mutually exclusive, just that these mindsets are often seen togther in upper middle-class people. Also, I don't neccesarily agree with these behaviors, I'm just entrenched in them. Sad, but true. I would like nothing better than to sit and have a reasonable discourse with my mother, and if she were a reasonable person, I might be able to. Following are three examples of her behavior. I have bipolar and around 2000, I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt. My mother came to visit me, and asked me what she was supposed to say to people about this incident, and had I thought about that, also indicating that she was embarrased by the whole thing. I think towards the end of the visit she asked what I needed, like magazines and stuff. So, we got through that, thank God. Last year, I decided I wanted to go to a salon to get my hair cut, instead of having my mother cut it at home as she does mine and everyone else's hair. I just made the appointment and didn't ask her in advance. When she asked me what I was doing that evening, I told her and she went off, and was personally offended that I'd made an appointment at a hair salon without consulting her first, and she was also slightly offended that I wanted to go to a salon in the first place, instead of letting her cut my hair. She yelled at me about this. I'm 31 and though I live at home right now, I feel that I should at least get my own hair cut without consulting my mother. Another time, I was in a restaurant with her and my dad, and we got around to talking about how long and bushy my hair was getting. My mom said I needed to have a hair cut, and I told her very calmly that I was gonna grow it out. She yelled at me in the restaurant and said firmly no, we're not going through that again, or something to that effect. I was nearly in tears. Everytime I've tried to even start a reasonable thought with her, even if it's just a sentence, she ends up yelling at me.

[revolutionphilosophy]

Damn, from your post you sound a lot like my BF.

 

Yes it's true... great minds really do think alike.

 

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that upper-middle classdom and the listed behaviors were mutually exclusive, just that these mindsets are often seen togther in upper middle-class people. Also, I don't neccesarily agree with these behaviors, I'm just entrenched in them. Sad, but true.

 

mmmhmm... and I'm just saying that the "Shut Up and Do What You're Told" ideology is non-sense. Break free of societal programming... you'll be happier. As I said earlier... by the standard definition my family (father's side at least) would be considered 'upper middle-class' but I personally find that label to be especially repulsive as most people who use it are pretentious and banal as all hell.

 

I would like nothing better than to sit and have a reasonable discourse with my mother, and if she were a reasonable person, I might be able to. Following are three examples of her behavior. I have bipolar and around 2000, I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt. My mother came to visit me, and asked me what she was supposed to say to people about this incident, and had I thought about that, also indicating that she was embarrased by the whole thing. I think towards the end of the visit she asked what I needed, like magazines and stuff. So, we got through that, thank God. Last year, I decided I wanted to go to a salon to get my hair cut, instead of having my mother cut it at home as she does mine and everyone else's hair. I just made the appointment and didn't ask her in advance. When she asked me what I was doing that evening, I told her and she went off, and was personally offended that I'd made an appointment at a hair salon without consulting her first, and she was also slightly offended that I wanted to go to a salon in the first place, instead of letting her cut my hair. She yelled at me about this. I'm 31 and though I live at home right now, I feel that I should at least get my own hair cut without consulting my mother. Another time, I was in a restaurant with her and my dad, and we got around to talking about how long and bushy my hair was getting. My mom said I needed to have a hair cut, and I told her very calmly that I was gonna grow it out. She yelled at me in the restaurant and said firmly no, we're not going through that again, or something to that effect. I was nearly in tears. Everytime I've tried to even start a reasonable thought with her, even if it's just a sentence, she ends up yelling at me.

 

Flower... you say that your family has impressed upon you a mentality that is very submissive to the whims of society... but your mother doesn't seem to follow that same theory. What's up with that? Surely society wouldn't approve of screaming at your grown child in a restaurant.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your suicide attempt... and I feel your pain when it comes to bipolar disorder (I was diagnosed nearly 10 years ago and have been on various meds but prefer to just live with it as difficult as it is sometimes). I'd also like to apologize on behalf of the entire human race for your mother's initial treatment of you during your hospitalization.

 

Just so you know -- I actually do fully understand what it's like to have your family pressure you to 'fall in line' with society. My family is actually very much the same. Whilst in High School, it was made very clear by my family (as a generalization) that they did not approve of my choice of friends and wished I'd find new ones (because my friends reflected on me which reflected on my family)... among other things. Even now at 25 they periodically inform me that they do not approve of my personal style (I have piercings/tattoos)...

 

Sometimes it really is just easier to follow the crowd... but I've never been truly happy living my life for everyone else. I really think your boyfriend may just be urging you to stand up to your mother because he abhors her treatment of you. He's at least more kind about it than I have been in the past... I tend to be rather protective of people in my life who matter to me.

[sb129]

 

Sometimes it really is just easier to follow the crowd... but I've never been truly happy living my life for everyone else. I really think your boyfriend may just be urging you to stand up to your mother because he abhors her treatment of you. He's at least more kind about it than I have been in the past... I tend to be rather protective of people in my life who matter to me.

Damn, from your post you sound a lot like my BF. Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that upper-middle classdom and the listed behaviors were mutually exclusive, just that these mindsets are often seen togther in upper middle-class people. Also, I don't neccesarily agree with these behaviors, I'm just entrenched in them. Sad, but true. I would like nothing better than to sit and have a reasonable discourse with my mother, and if she were a reasonable person, I might be able to. Following are three examples of her behavior. I have bipolar and around 2000, I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt. My mother came to visit me, and asked me what she was supposed to say to people about this incident, and had I thought about that, also indicating that she was embarrased by the whole thing. I think towards the end of the visit she asked what I needed, like magazines and stuff. So, we got through that, thank God. Last year, I decided I wanted to go to a salon to get my hair cut, instead of having my mother cut it at home as she does mine and everyone else's hair. I just made the appointment and didn't ask her in advance. When she asked me what I was doing that evening, I told her and she went off, and was personally offended that I'd made an appointment at a hair salon without consulting her first, and she was also slightly offended that I wanted to go to a salon in the first place, instead of letting her cut my hair. She yelled at me about this. I'm 31 and though I live at home right now, I feel that I should at least get my own hair cut without consulting my mother. Another time, I was in a restaurant with her and my dad, and we got around to talking about how long and bushy my hair was getting. My mom said I needed to have a hair cut, and I told her very calmly that I was gonna grow it out. She yelled at me in the restaurant and said firmly no, we're not going through that again, or something to that effect. I was nearly in tears. Everytime I've tried to even start a reasonable thought with her, even if it's just a sentence, she ends up yelling at me.

 

Whoa. Your mum sounds like she is high maintenance. No wonder it drives your boyfriend nuts. He can probably see the person you can be when she isn't shoving you back into your "place" 24-7.

I know you live at home but is there any chance you might be able to cut those apron strings sweetie?

She is just going to get worse and worse unless you start standing up to her. Imagine what she will be like when you have your own kids if you don't start laying some boundaries down? Every boyfriend you ever have is going to have issues with your mother if this is how she treats you.

 

SHE doesn't respect YOUR boundaries.. or your feelings from the sound of it. Sorry to hear about the bipolar and suicide attempt. But the fact you are here telling us about it makes you a stronger person than I think you give yourself credit for.

 

As for the upper middle class.... I always think that those who are so desperate to keep up appearances are the ones with more skeletons in their closets than anyone. Its toxic.

My parents are "middle class" I went to university, I have an excellent job which is really well paid.

But my parents would have accepted me if I have gone to live in a commune. They have never strived to keep up with the Jones, and as a result neither do I. neither does my BF. We have friends from all sorts of different backgrounds/ jobs/ etc etc. Nobody is afraid to speak their mind.

In fact sometimes we speak our minds at more stuffy occasions just to see how many people we can shock...

 

Anyway, i digress. Your boyfriend should respect you and your family etc. But he shouldn't have to put up with this kind of rubbish in his face all the time.

[revolutionphilosophy]

Whoa. Your mum sounds like she is high maintenance. No wonder it drives your boyfriend nuts. He can probably see the person you can be when she isn't shoving you back into your "place" 24-7.

 

I concur!! Very much so!

 

As for the upper middle class.... I always think that those who are so desperate to keep up appearances are the ones with more skeletons in their closets than anyone. Its toxic.

 

In fact sometimes we speak our minds at more stuffy occasions just to see how many people we can shock...

 

Again I find myself agreeing... people who struggle to maintain a certain appearance always seem to have something to hide. Speaking your mind to mess with people who are overly impressed with themselves is always a great and amusing thing... sorta like kidnapping an amish family and locking them inside circuit city.

 

Anyway, i digress. Your boyfriend should respect you and your family etc. But he shouldn't have to put up with this kind of rubbish in his face all the time.

 

Yes he should respect her and her family... though I don't know so much that he's putting up with 'rubbish' persay. I think he's barely tolerating her mother's treatment of her and encouraging her to be the great and wonderful person he sees her as.

[sb129]

Again I find myself agreeing... people who struggle to maintain a certain appearance always seem to have something to hide. Speaking your mind to mess with people who are overly impressed with themselves is always a great and amusing thing... sorta like kidnapping an amish family and locking them inside circuit city.

 

Yes he should respect her and her family... though I don't know so much that he's putting up with 'rubbish' persay. I think he's barely tolerating her mother's treatment of her and encouraging her to be the great and wonderful person he sees her as.

 

Yeah you're right.. he obviously cares for her. It must be tough for him to witness this all the time is what I meant.

 

One of the funniest things my boyfriend did lately was to "order" me around front of some raging feminists. Not everyone would find that funny- they certainly didn't!!!!- but its the kind of sick humour we have... we draw the line at asking for bacon in jewish restaurants.

[flowergirl]

I'm very glad to see someone else here who understands what the bipolar struggle can be like. I an pretty much have gotten over that comment now, but it stings me sometimes still. Anyway, I think you're quite right, those who label themselves "affluent" or "upper middle -class" are usually pretentious and banal, which is why I don't date them. Yeah, SBL, my mother seems to be more concerned with how SHE'S represented, and how she looks to others. This has been indicated to me, never said outright, just certain responses (like the the situations I listed in my last post) and attitudes that would make it seem that way. I do have to admit that in my early twenties, the only rebellious period of my life thus far, I was trying to escape her grasp by running and hanging out with s****ty people, which got me into horrible, abusive situations, and it backfired on me something awful. Some of the reason that I've been so passive is that I'm trying to prove that I'm not like that anymore, and that I'm not gonna backslide into those situations like I did before. I just wanna rock the boat and have her think I'm "falling off the wagon" so to speak, so I keep it calm so she soesn't worry. I want her to trust and believe that I'm ok now, so I just chill.

[revolutionphilosophy]

Yeah you're right.. he obviously cares for her. It must be tough for him to witness this all the time is what I meant.

 

One of the funniest things my boyfriend did lately was to "order" me around front of some raging feminists. Not everyone would find that funny- they certainly didn't!!!!- but its the kind of sick humour we have... we draw the line at asking for bacon in jewish restaurants.

 

I would definitely agree that it is hard for him. That may be why he's trying to push her out of her comfort zone. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he'd completely flaked on social settings where her mother is going to be around.

 

Sometimes it's really and truly hard to see someone you care about deeply demeaned, ya know?

 

Bah... that's good stuff imo. Life isn't meant to be a serious journey from one moment to the next... laughter is really what makes it all worth living.

[Kamille]

flowergirl - I have to say I'm impressed by how well you listen to everyone's point of view. And like Walk and Tarnbark said, neither of you or your boyfriend's philosophies are 'correct', as long as you are happy.

 

I do have one question, that I ask without judgement : I'm wondering why you are still living with your parents and if you have always lived with them? Could you move out if you wanted to?

[flowergirl]

Well, Kamille, I moved back home in 2000 after my last hospitilization for a suicide attempt, because I am bipolar, and I just got comfortable there. I am looking into moving back into subsidized housing, I hope that works out soon. Anyway, everyone here has been great, I'm quite moved. Just one last nagging thing that's been in the back of my mind, and it could be nothing or a red flag. My BF's mother lives about 10 minutes away from him, and yet he only visits her very occasionally, like every couple of months. He talks to her on the phone regularly, and sometimes she stops by when he's working at the local coffeeshop. Maybe I'm too tethered to my family to judge this, I was just worried that because of this, maybe he thinks I should isolate myself from my mother too and that he's using her behavior towards me to justify that ulterior motive. I do admit that that's another reason I fight him on this, because it just seemed so stange to me that a young man wouldn't visit the mother he says he loves at least twice a month or once a week. However, they get along well when they're around each other, they're so natural, and he always speaks highly of her, so they seem close. He says that he loves his mother to death, but because he lived at home with her, he's just trying to assert his space. Is that weird or worrisome?

[tanbark813]

I don't think it's all that weird. My mom lives 5 hours from me and I visit her about 3 or 4 times a year. I speak with her on the phone maybe once or twice a month. 5 hours is a lot different than 10 minutes, of course, but if my mom did live 10 minutes away, I doubt I'd see her once a week.

[Kamille]

thanks for your answer. I get it. And I understand better why it would be hard for you to challenge the status quo with your mother.

 

As for your other question. i don't think i would worry about it if I were you. He wants you to be able to assert yourself and be yourself and so that applies as much to him as to your family. If you feel you need to see your parents everyday, then so be it.

 

Your relationship to your mother does sound incredibly complicated though and I could understand that your boyfriend would want it to change if he sees that it hurts you. The thing is that you and only you get to define if and when it hurts you, and you get to decide how you will react to it. He can't make that decision for you.

 

I guess my other question is, is your relationship with your mother wearing you down? What mechanisms do you have to deal with it?

[Porn_Guy]

the middle ground is usually firmest to stand on.

[Star Gazer]

It sounds so selfish and irresponsible. It's not the 60's anymore, buck it up and move on. Anyway, my boyfriend's philosophy goes so far as to either avoid or leave early from social situations where he feels that he has to "perform", that's how "real" he is. Maybe it's the suburban girl in me, but for the most part in the upper-middle class suburban culture, it's ingrained that there are certain rules, norms and behaviors to follow once you're an adult, which will make you a normal, respectable part of society. You pay your taxes, you find a good career, blah, blah, blah. One of those is to regularly have dinner parties and have social functions with friends and family, another would be not to yell and act a fool in public, and another one is that in this suburban culture, you don't really talk much about your feelings and you don't make a big fuss about them. And a person would never consider not staying all the way through a social function just because it's not their type of crowd. But suburbanites only stick with their own anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem. Up until now, I would never have considered having a long-term relationship with someone who didn't wanna go to or stay at a party or social function because they were too "real", there's no such concept in the suburban culture, we suck it and go to parties, and see our families at regularly designated intervals, but this guy is cool. So, what do you think?

 

It's not the 50's either. What are you trying to be, a Stepford Wife?

 

I'm a product of the suburbs as well, but I sound NOTHING like what you've described. I agree with your BF whole-heartedly.

 

Seeing as he's able to "behave himself" at your precious social functions, he clearly knows there's a TIME and a PLACE for the expression of opinions and ideas. I certainly don't blame him for not wanting to be a conforming doormat. That's no way to live.

 

The only thing I DO agree with you about is Tanbark.

[Star Gazer]

the middle ground is usually firmest to stand on.

 

 

Amen.

 

 

(Love your sig too.)