Mz. Pixie Posted January 24, 2007 Posted January 24, 2007 Quite well, ac2ally. Victimhood is a choice. I'm none of the titles you've listed. Nice reply 2long.
Author kyle_c Posted January 29, 2007 Author Posted January 29, 2007 I just wanted everyone to know I was still around. Since my last post I made it clear that I did not want anything to do with her until she addressed her problems and ended the affair. This lead to days of her emailing and calling me which I left unanswered. She actually told me before I contacted her that she ended the affair and was drinking less. She eventually left me a very thoughtful gift and then called from a pay phone crying to say how upset she was that she might not have kids with me and that she has ruined her life. I expressed that I needed action and not words. I continue to hear the words but only see little action right now. I am standing strong. I have been excercising and taking care of myself. Thank you all for all your support. I will keep you updated.
lovelorcet Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Sounds like you have put yourself on a good path, try to stay on it.
Flyin in Clouds Posted January 30, 2007 Posted January 30, 2007 Flyin in Clouds, I understand feeling the way you do, but perhaps I can offer a perspective, if you're willing to read my post, that will be of help to you. You believe that having an affair is immoral. You believe that someone else having an affair would cause you to have an affair as a form of revenge. By allowing the immoral actions of another the power of possibly driving you to immoral actions, you have surrendered you ability to do what is right to other(s). Clearly you have been hurt, possibly badly, possibly much worse than many people here sometime in your past. Your power over your own life has been taken from you. It is time to take it back. I wish you luck. hmm, I can read your post, but don't know if you will be allowed to read my response. This is typical of the response I get to my very common sense advise to have "affairs" of one's own in response to a cheating spouse and it is all wrong. (I would be interested to know your gender tweldy. I'd bet female.) First I don't need "help". You are more than presumptuous to think I do. Second, my vows are explicitly that my wife and I play by the same rules, whatever the rules are. We agreed to be monogamous. That was a mutually agreed to rule. Now if one of us (say my wife) choose to unilaterally change the rules and engaged in an affair, thus cheating on the rules, well then by the very same original vow (playing by the same rules) I would get to unilaterally re-write the rules too. With me so far? (and for the record, I do not consider any mutually agreed to living arrangement to be immoral. Two women and three guys can form relationship if they want to. An orgy every night. Fine with me if they all agree to it. If a couple agrees to an open marriage, then that's fine too. Nothing immoral about it. A couple wants to engage in the occasional threesome, perfectly fine with me.) Now, and this is hypothetical, purely for the sake of argument, if my wife took it upon herself to change the rules we played by, then I could do likewise. There would be nothing immoral about it. She would have done something immoral, changing the rules without mutual consent, but I would not have done anything immoral because once she changed our rules, I could and would as well. If she wanted an "open" marriage she could have asked but since she didn't I don't need to ask her or get her permission if I wish to do what she did. Revenge may or may not be part of it. Revenge would imply a desire to hurt her, and I would say that might be some small part of the motivation. But from my perspective I could not continue a relationship with my wife if she had more "lovers" than I had. If the number of prior lovers she had was greater than mine then I wouldn't have married her. I just wouldn't feel right in such a relationship. Say I'm crazy or wrong or whatever you would like but for me such a relationship simply would not work. I would feel inferior to her and since that is how I would feel I simply wouldn't be able to function in the relationship. She could always decline to accept my rule change and the marriage would end in divorce. But if she wanted to continue, for whatever reason, the kids, financial, "she made a mistake because her lover rejected her after the thrill of conquest was gone", I'd only consider it under totally new rules. So in summary, my having an "affair" after her cheating would not be cheating nor immoral because for one thing I would make it clear to her that if we were to continue the marriage that we'd be playing by new rules, the one's I wanted. The "immoral" part of an affair isn't sex outside marriage, it is lying about it, keeping it a secret and deceiving one's partner, violating the rules that two people freely and mutually agreed to live by. I don't know what others agree to, but my agreement with my wife is we play by the same rules first and foremost, we must mutually consent to change any rule and one of the rules is to be monogamous. If either one of us breaches those rules, then "all bets are off". Now you can say my affair would be immoral but you'll have to explain why, given the context of the rules of my household. If a couple's vows where that they could be unfaithful to one another or they could lie to one another, then they can't really cheat on each other can they? But I doubt many people state in their vows that cheating is OK. (And an open marriage isn't cheating. It was agreed to....). Victimhood is a choice. I'm none of the titles you've listed.The choice to create a victim was the cheaters, not the trusting spouse who is a victim of cheating. If someone is raped, they are a victim. They certainly didn't choose to be raped. Neither did a cheated on spouse choose to be the victim of that "crime". And while some may not like the word, a man who's wife cheats on him is by definition a cuckold. And that is something most men wouldn't choose to be. I don't know 2long personally (of course) and I don't wish him any ill will. But if I did know him and knew his wife cheated on him I wouldn't think much of him staying with her. I would think of him as weak for not having had the strength to move on and find a better woman. He may feel he's strong because he put up with the pain, the hurt and choose not to be a "victim" and there was no better woman for him. We can all fool ourselves into believing anything we want. And I certainly don' t know what his vows where with his wife, but somewhere he said or implied that he wasn't morally superior to his wife. Well, excuse me but since his wife cheated which was immoral and he didn't cheat which was moral how is it that he isn't morally superior? The arguments I get for not have a "revenge affair", is that it would be stooping to the same low level of immorality as the cheating spouse. Well, excuse me but there is definitely an implied inequality there. I guess I would have to ask why get all worked up over an affair to begin with? I mean it's a forgivable thing, according to 2long and others. So what's the big deal? Just forget about it... move on, it's in the past. Get marriage counseling and all will be better. I know if it was me marriage counseling wouldn't fix it. And I don't get this notion that a wayward spouse's affair is forgivable, not really so bad, but a betrayed spouse's affair is something far worse than the original sin? Sorry I'm not buying that kind of inequality. Since my last post I made it clear that I did not want anything to do with her until she addressed her problems and ended the affair. This lead to days of her emailing and calling me which I left unanswered. She actually told me before I contacted her that she ended the affair and was drinking less. She eventually left me a very thoughtful gift and then called from a pay phone crying to say how upset she was that she might not have kids with me and that she has ruined her life. I expressed that I needed action and not words. I continue to hear the words but only see little action right now. I am standing strong. I have been excercising and taking care of myself. Thank God you are doing that and not being a doormat. She's ruined her life? What about your life kyle_c? She doesn't care that she just might have ruined your life too? See with a cheater it is all about them. Their needs. Your needs don't matter. When someone is really in love their significant other's needs are what matter most to them, not their own needs. Just wait till she tells you the affair was all your fault or you were to blame because you weren't attentive enough or something like that. I wish you the best of luck kyle_c. 2long and Mz. P, et. al. may be right and I may be all wrong. All I can say is how I think I would react in your situation. I would certainly want to know why my wife would think it wrong of me to have an affair when she had one. I'd like a damn good explanation of that. I would want to know if I did have an affair how would she react? And why would she expect me to react any differently?
Tortured Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 Well, if your spouse cheats on you then you certainly have the choice to do the same - makes sense. It would serve your cheating spouse right! And there is truth to it - your spouse getting a dose of his/her medicine. But there is a reason to NOT do this. First of all - the cheating spouse is definitely selfish but not so much that (except with the most sociopathic people) they cannot feel the guilt. It will be there for a long time, maybe the rest of their life. If you don't cheat then you won't have to deal with the guilt. Second - that would be pretty emotionally cheap for you to do to your potential "affair" - you are not really there for them emotionally - just using them to get back at your spouse. Which brings me to... Third - you can keep your values. You would not have considered having an affair before your spouse did - why dump your values now? You either have character or you do not. I doubt you will get the pleasure out of the affair you think you will. And you will still be in pain. Hey, you are better off to finish the marriage PROPERLY - get a divorce - heal up emotionally and then try the relationship thing at some point down the road when you are ready. And can find someone who will love you and be faithful to you. Of course, you can try to save the marriage. At this point, I have little confidence in marriage or fidelity. Just my 2 cents.
johnnyl321 Posted February 6, 2007 Posted February 6, 2007 Look, I know you're heartbroken and think your world is ending. It's not. Animals lose mates all the time and the only thing different about us from the rest of the animal kingdom is opposable thumbs and the ability to use logic and reason. Other than that, we still cling to our reptilian brains for things like food, shelter and companionship. She decided she wasn't happy, not you. It's not YOUR job to MAKE her happy. That's HER responsibility. And all she'll do is keep pulling on your heartstrings to make you come when SHE wants you, not when YOU need her. So, for your own sanity, for your own confidence for your own well-being.....dump that lying, whining, complaining woman and understand that when there are over 6,000,000,000 people living on this planet today, you have a 100% chance of finding someone better IN ALL SENSES OF THE WORD. Godspeed!
outofdarkness Posted February 6, 2007 Posted February 6, 2007 I am new to the forum. My post is rather long, but I wanted to provide as many details as possible. My wife and I have been together for 12 years married for 4 years. We are both in our mid thirties. We are both educated, I received my Ph.D. three years ago, she will receive hers in April. I want to have a family with her more than anything and I have told her this. In the past two years she has asked me to have children repeatedly. We agreed that we will have children when her graduation is in sight. I feel that she does not believe that we will have children. She has told me that she was unhappy about once a month in the last year. I have asked her why and she has responded either she does not know why or that it has to do with work. Her actions always suggested to me that she was happy. A year ago she had a miscarriage that revealed a large growth on her uterus. We agreed that to increase our fertility we would have surgery to remove the growth. We had the surgery in July. I stood by her and completely supported it. We had been under some stress since she is graduating soon and we have had some problems finding jobs together. I feel that it is her turn for a career, and we had talked alot about leaving where we live and living in the mountains or the beach for the past several years. Near the end of September I was away on business. While I was gone she told me that she had a job prospect in the mountains. I returned home early to tell her that I thought we should pursue this job and that I thought we should use a trip we were planning overseas in late October (a trip of a lifetime) to get pregnant. She responded by telling me that she did not want to have children with me anymore and that she wanted to move out. She asked me to help her with some fieldwork two days later. It was then that she told me that she had been having an emotional affair with someone from work for about a month and had sex with him twice while I was recently out of town. She had been drinking on both occasions. We agreed that we had made alot of mistakes mostly in communication of needs and that we should go to marriage counselor. She agreed to stop seeing him and we agreed to work on bettering ourselves primarily and working on our marriage secondary. We found her a place where she could live nights and weekends, and she could move into after our trip. We continued to sleep, eat, shower, etc together through our trip overseas. Our trip went well, but on the second day she got really upset that nothing had happened to make her fall back in love with me yet during the trip. She said that she expected something to happen. I told her that at this point we might need to try to make something happen rather than wait for it. When we returned she moved out. Until early December she was really upset, usually coming back to our home in the middle of the night to sleep with me and always coming home in the morning to shower with me. She has been really depressed since, often sleeping and drinking all day long. In the meantime I have read several books including, his needs her needs, surviving an affair, not just friends, relationship rescue, men are from mars, codependent no more, dance of connection, 7 principles of making marriage work, women's infiddelity. I am very serious about recovering our marriage. I found out through a mutual friend and her mother that this is indeed about my alleged disinterest in children. I found out that she restarted the affair around new years. Th other man is around thirty, a fellow student who is separating/divorcing his wife and daughter. She continues to call me throughout each day and we see each other daily. She recently told me that she thought the affair was very bad and she wanted to end it. She agreed that it is the source of her depression and dishonesty. She does not want to divorce, however she is reluctant to work on our marriage. She says she wants to be friends. She often tells me she loves me, but of course she says she is not in love with me. I hear alot of the typical cliches from her. She has also convinced herself that the bad times in our relationship were much worse than they are and she has made up bad things about our relationship that simply aren't true. She says she has been unhappy for years. After doing some research on affairs, I find that everything she does is typical of someone in her situation. I know she is really upset about the failed pregnancy, and she tells me that my reaction to it was very bad-enough to convince her that she doesn't want kids with me. I don't believe my reaction was bad, we were both definitely scared, but it was over a year ago. She definitely has a drinking problem. She usually drinks two bottles of wine a night. I believe she is very upset about what has happened to us. I love her very much and feel I can definitely forgive her and chalk this up to both of our mistakes, stress and temporary insanity. I am not sure how to proceed. Your W is an alcoholic who is in desperate need of immediate help. She might suffer from depression as well as alcoholism, but often times they go hand in hand. Did she drink the two bottles of wine before the miscarriage, or did it start after? This would tell alot. From what you said in your post, she sounds unstable and definately is an alcoholic. I would suggest that she start w/ reaching out for some help. You could contact your local A/A and have them send you some info and leave it for her with a note just saying that you are concerned. She WILL get angry, all alcoh. do initially, but I know she will think about it, and might even thank you in long run if you stay together or not. Do you love her enough to try to help regardless of the cold and callous things that she is saying and doing to you right now? It's tough when a relationship is one sided or when one partner is nonrepsonsive or confused. I can tell you that I got many of the same messages/vibes from my H right before D day came...As you said, all of the usual things...It wasn't until AFTER D day that he straightened up, or so I think. DON"T chalk all of this up to all of the mistakes, stress, etc. When someone has a drinking problem, and I can say from experience that two bottles of wine a day IS a drinking problem, they will excuse their drinking away until the cows come home. All you can do is reach out and if she takes your hand, great, if not, you can live with the peace that b/c you love her, you reached out to help. Miscarriages are very emotional and yes, they do cause temporary depression...but from reading your post, it just doesn't seem to jive that this is a one time thing. I'm willing to bet that it's been a problem for a long time. It is hard to figure our which came first, the depression or the drinking b/c alcohol IS a depressant...The old question; "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" seems appropriate in this situation. Lastly, she is NOT treating you right! Dont' let this ruin what should be the prime of your life. Good partners are hard to come by today, and you are well educated with a stable career. Don't sell youself short if she is not willing to meet you half way...I know, easier said then done, but I have been reading these boards for awhile now, and it really seems that relationships are hard enough w/out one partner totally misbehaving...sorry to sound so "kindergartenish". Good luck and I will be praying for you.
tweldy Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Addressed, in some order I would be interested to know your gender tweldy. I'd bet female. Don't put too much on that bet, what were the odds? First I don't need "help". You are more than presumptuous to think I do. I never said you needed help. You read that into what I said - unless by help you mean you need to do some reflection and makes some changes. I defy anyone on this board to claim that they don't need to do some reflection and makes some changes. I say this with upmost confidence because the perfect people on this board will not be inclined to respond, being unaffected by my statement. Second, my vows are explicitly that my wife and I play by the same rules, whatever the rules are. We agreed to be monogamous. That was a mutually agreed to rule. Now if one of us (say my wife) choose to unilaterally change the rules and engaged in an affair, thus cheating on the rules, well then by the very same original vow (playing by the same rules) I would get to unilaterally re-write the rules too. With me so far? Nope, this makes no sense whatsoever. By this logic, effectively, there are no rules. That is, if someone breaks the rules they are implicitly creating new rules, thus there really are no rules for any definition of 'rule' that is generally recognizable. Also, I would never equate 'vow' to 'rule'. For example, some rules contain a defined penalty as they can be broken by mistake (such as a 'rule' in a 'game' e.g. 'out of bounds'). If someone breaks a vow, they need to make some sort of restitution and re-commit to the vow. Otherwise, I don't see how it can be called a vow. At this point you give an explanation of 'rule' and it appears to be the case that if any 'rule' is broken there is some re-negotiation of 'rules' according to considerations of the party(s) that did not break the 'rules'. So if I leave the toilet seat up can my wife take a dump in the sink? Ya gotta me kiddin' man. Seriously. S'ridiculous.
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