Update

[Ladyjane14]

Hmmmm... a thread designed to talk about "anger issues" can become pretty darn ANGRY. Who knew?

 

Anyway, there was something in one of your posts over there that I noticed and wanted to point out to you:

"I don't believe for one second that H2T doesn't sulk and mope around the house with his mind littered with the negative feelings he expresses here about his W. The rollercoaster they are on is precisely because she can sense his wavering."

 

"Where she get this idea? This just something pulled from thin air."

 

I think there's something to this. If you are a guy who is experiencing a dearth of sexual fulfillment in his marriage... it's fairly unlikely that you're not giving some indications of your dissatisfaction with the situation.

 

Most of us who have experienced this problem in marriage from the opposite side of the equation are naturally going to take a trip down memory lane and remember our own spouse's reaction. Fact is... if you're the FIRST guy who went through this without sulking or moping, you have indeed perfected 'conflict avoidance' to an art form.

 

Lack of SF in the relationship is something that guys tend to get really frustrated and angry about. It's probably a key reason why you gave yourself permission to seek outside the marriage. With that in mind, I'm thinking perhaps your memory of your own previous behavior might be a bit rosy.

 

More importantly and regardless to whatever the REAL DEAL might have been.... perception, in many ways, IS the truth. If your wife felt that you were "sulking" or "moping", fair or unfair, true or untrue... it's still a problem that must be dealt with because it, in itself, contributed to declining sexual frequency in the pre-affair dynamic.

 

Through the female lens, this kind of petulance is unattractive in a prospective lover. It adds an element of appeasement, in that a woman might feel like she's just "doing it" to keep the peace. Sex becomes another chore on her 'to-do' list rather than a pleasure. In her mind, it objectifies her. And this becomes the seed from which full-scale refusal to engage in SF is born.

 

Now, it's not important that you agree with that as a significant truth. It doesn't matter. Part of dealing with a woman is dealing with her feelings. Her feelings are real enough to HER, so they're important. And what's important to her ought to be important to YOU.

 

Just like you don't buy a dog and treat him like a cat, you don't buy a bird and treat her like a fish. You'll just end up drowning her.

 

Anyway, get yourself back to marriage counseling. Go alone if you have to. And talk with your therapist about healthy ways to engage in conflict. There's just NO WAY to resolve disputes and misunderstandings without entering into occasional conflict. But it doesn't have to be a scary, marriage-ending thing when you do. The key is having the right tools.

[Ladyjane14]

Lovely post, Veronese. Once again, you are the calm in the eye of the storm.

[Hard2Think]

I think there's something to this. If you are a guy who is experiencing a dearth of sexual fulfillment in his marriage... it's fairly unlikely that you're not giving some indications of your dissatisfaction with the situation.

 

Most of us who have experienced this problem in marriage from the opposite side of the equation are naturally going to take a trip down memory lane and remember our own spouse's reaction. Fact is... if you're the FIRST guy who went through this without sulking or moping, you have indeed perfected 'conflict avoidance' to an art form.

 

Ok, wait .. I'm not saying this wasn't true pre-A. It certainly did happen. I'll explain in a second. I understood NID to be suggesting that I'm doing this now, post-A. The suggestion was that this behavior is the cause of the current roller-coaster ride. That isn't the case. I most certainly do not pressure her for sex or affection any more. If she doesn't want to I understand and I make absolutely no issue of it considering the circumstances. So she hasn't seen me mad or sulking for 6 months now. Honest.

 

Pre-A, yes, I used to get pissed off after about a month or so of not having sex. Then I knew she was having sex for peace-keeping purposes as you just described. That made things even worse. I did get angry. But I was up-front with her about it. I would tell her. In hindsight - that was probably counter-productive.

 

Let me give you an example. We went to Paris a few years ago. I decided to make it extra special. I got us business class seats, and got not a hotel, but an apartment right in the center of the city. This was a great place. It was huge and in a private old-style building. The kids had their own room all the way across the apartment and we had our own master bedroom. We were in Paris for 10 days, including 3 days in the countryside of Burgundy where we stayed at a tiny hotel with a 5 Michelin star restaurant and had a 14 course meal along with the finest bottle of wine we both ever had.

 

We never did have sex. Now I didn't get angry nor discuss the issue at all at her during the trip. I wanted to have a good time. But I was mad sometimes at night as I masturbated in the bathroom.

 

After the trip, when we got home, I had to talk about it. I just didn't get it. But the conversation went nowhere - and yes, I was angry about that. This was the first time I no longer just felt neglected. I felt downright taken advantage of. I felt like I had the responsibilities and duties of a husband but was actually just living with a roommate. And in spite of what some have tried to suggest - I don't think I was a bad husband and father at all.

 

Before anyone jumps all over me. This is not a grieviance I hold against her nor do I hate her for this. I never brought it up again. But this is just an illustration of what would indeed lead me to a place where I would be a little bitter and angry. I agree that her having to worry about my feeling a bit ticked off about that may not have been pleasant for her .. but I wasn't too good at nor very inclined to fake it and have her think things are ok.

 

And for the record, in case there's any doubt, my disappointment never translated to physical nor verbal abuse by me. Ever.

[Hard2Think]

Veronese,

 

Thank you very much for that post. Yes, what you say does reflect very much what's happening. It also helps me to know that you, like my wife, went through the same thing at the 6 month mark.

 

I guess it's very good to know that this may happen again even a year or 2 from now. Not because I'm looking forward to it, but because I can at least treat it like what it is - a temporary downturn.

 

I know for a fact that my wife is worried that her anger will drive me away. She's told me that a few times - and I told her that I wasn't going anywhere. But it's good to hear this from you. It's what I figured.

 

Thanks again.

[veronese]

Why thank you LadyJane I haven't always been very gentle with H2T during this saga because I strongly suspect he isn't being entirely honest with us and he's definitely not being honest with his wife.

 

I think he should own up to the other affair so his wife has a better picture of who her husband is. I know I wanted to know the truth of my husband's EAs so desperately because I felt I had a right to know who I was choosing to spend my one and only life with here on earth.

 

Maybe if he came clean about the first OW his wife wouldn't want to be with him? Or maybe if he gave her this truth voluntarily she would have more respect for him for being honest even though she'd probably hate his guts too.

 

He knows all of her faults and is trying to work things through based on those facts. If she told him she'd had two affairs of similar proportions to the ones he had, I think it would affect his opinion of her somehow.

 

Would he be putting up with all her bollocks if she told him tonight that she'd cheated on him?

 

I know a lot of people don't agree with giving more details to BWs than necessary but I would rather know the truth no matter how painful than to put my heart and soul into repairing the marriage with a man who was continuing to treat me with such contempt and dishonesty.

 

Have the balls to reveal your true character and allow your wife to know who she's trying to stay married to H2T. You may not think it's significant but I think you have a hunch that your wife may disagree.

 

V x

[Hard2Think]

Maybe if he came clean about the first OW his wife wouldn't want to be with him? Or maybe if he gave her this truth voluntarily she would have more respect for him for being honest even though she'd probably hate his guts too.

 

She knows about that. She doesn't have all the details, but she knows. I said so in my thread from 6 months ago.

 

Guys, seriously - it's important to read the posts before making assumptions like these. Its a waste of time to have to go back and correct factual errors like these, such as being harangued for having a wife who works 2 jobs (not true), abusing my wife (not true), the kids not being hers (not true), me hiding the first OW (not true), me hating my wife with a passion (not true), me turning my kids against my wife (never happened, never will), etc.

 

Opinions about whether I'm telling the truth or if I'm an evil, PA narcissist is all fair game for sure - but please at least make an effort to get the underlying facts straight.

 

It's not so much that it's a hassle for me alone, but it'll wind up being even more confusing than it already is for any poor soul that actually tries to read these threads.

[Ladyjane14]

Pre-A, yes, I used to get pissed off after about a month or so of not having sex. Then I knew she was having sex for peace-keeping purposes as you just described. That made things even worse. I did get angry. But I was up-front with her about it. I would tell her. In hindsight - that was probably counter-productive.

 

Understand that I'm not saying it was wrong of you to feel that way. Under the circumstances, your feelings were NORMAL. The problems arise though, when you stuff those feelings and allow them to fester. So, it was never wrong of you to discuss the situation with her. What was "counter-productive" was allowing the issue to never be fully resolved.

 

Viewing the issues through the 'gender lens' might give us insight into the other person's motivation, but it doesn't necessarily make anybody right or wrong. I don't believe that your wife was right in her approach to marital SF anymore than I, myself, was right back when this was a problem in my own marriage. That said, the feelings I had were real enough to me, enough so that they colored my perception of the problems. They needed to be addressed through education. This was a difficult problem for my husband as you might imagine... because I'm a stubborn woman and I was fully committed to the "rightness" of my position.

 

Anyway, you can't make other people's decisions for them. So, after you've done all that YOU can do to resolve a conflict, the appropriate thing to do would've been to walk and let her stew on it. I think you can agree in hindsight that it would've been a better solution than compounding the problem.

 

We can't change the past though. Hindsight might be 20/20 but it doesn't help us much now unless we're willing to use it in addressing the current situation. And I think you should. Because... you can take what you learn from the post-mortem of the pre-affair dynamic and apply it to the present day problems. History can teach you something. What it ought to be teaching you now is that conflict avoidance and inadaquate problem resolution are going to cause more difficulties in the long run. Better to address issues as they come up, and to enlist some help if you're uncomfortable broaching them on your own.

[veronese]

Sorry H2T, I didn't remember that detail and if you think I'm going to plough my way through your thread again you must be joking!

 

Well I'm glad she knows but how much does she know? Didn't you sort of make light of it?

 

Hope you don't mind me asking.

 

v x

[NoIDidn't]

Sorry H2T, I didn't remember that detail and if you think I'm going to plough my way through your thread again you must be joking!

 

Well I'm glad she knows but how much does she know? Didn't you sort of make light of it?

 

Hope you don't mind me asking.

 

v x

 

 

I am not quoting, but rather recalling from memory that she was told that it was an inappropriate relationship, as in EA. It was not admitted to the length or the actual nature of the R.

 

And, yes, if I was his W, he'd be out the door for giving me that addendum too many years too late and after having had another *inappropriate* relationship.

 

Not H2T, but remembered that little bit.

[veronese]

NoIDidn't

 

That was more or less how I remembered it and if that's the case, then I don't think H2T is being honest enough with his wife.

 

I know in my case I wanted to know the true nature of my H's relationships, and having sex with any of his friends was fairly high on my list of 'tell me if you did'. Damn, I was even pissed off that he forgot to tell me he'd played badminton with one of them, so forgetting to tell me he'd had sex wouldn't have been good.

 

I know that maybe my H didn't tell me the whole truth and that I may never find out. But from my heart I can say that if he did and has lied then he's here under false pretences!

 

I just think that ALL of us deserve to know the truth about our partners so we can make choices about our lives based on facts and not fantasy.

 

veronese x

[Guest]

'Wow... this isn't the first time I've been shocked at the level of animosity on one of H2T's threads.

And to be honest, I think ALOT of it stems from his having unceremoniously "dumped" the OW back on D-Day.

 

Oftentimes, I have to wonder if when we look at a post, we don't only use the 'lens of personal experience', but also the 'lens of gender'. That said, I don't think we can really understand H2T if we only apply the female viewpoint.

 

From the female perspective... he told two different women that he loved them. Then he dumped one of them without so much as a backwards glance. Hence, he must love neither of them. He must be incapable of love.

 

Sorry, but that's not going to make rational sense to a guy who has ALREADY admitted that in hindsight he understands he fundamentally LIED to the OW. His feelings were the equivalent of "pillow-talk". They probably felt real enough at the time, but when D-Day arrived... the bubble popped and he could see the difference.

 

That happens to alot of folks. Once a crisis arrives, they realize what their priorities are. Are we going to crucify him for FINALLY getting his head on straight?

 

He already knows that his coping mechanism is faulty. At this point, he'd benefit greatly by getting into some counseling and learning better communications and coping skills. He's told us that he's planning on doing just that, and I hope he follows through.

 

I've been reading from the beginning. And I've rattled his cage from time to time when I felt like he wasn't forthcoming enough too. My take on it... this guy got mad. He felt like he wasn't getting what he needed at home. Right or wrong, he felt like his wife was deliberately withholding emotional and physical intimacy from him. And in his anger... he decided that if he wasn't valued by his wife, he'd find somebody else who WOULD value him. Because what difference would it make to her anyway? In his mind his wife didn't love him and the relationship was unsalvagable.

 

It happens to ALOT of guys just that way. And we might not agree with their viewpoint. We might be able to shoot down their reasons like ducks on a pond. But if we take it at face value, rather than trying to translate it through a female lens... we see that it's just a big, fat, mistake, stinkin'-thinkin' running amok.

 

The MINUTE this guy became aware that his wife did, in actuality, really love him.... he backpeddled his ass off. That's because the bulk of his actions previous to her crying and falling apart on him like she did, was based on the idea that she DIDN'T love him anymore. It was based on information processed through his male lens. Guys simply don't understand how a woman can love them and not show it in a physical way. And I don't care how many times you tell them about "testosterone and estrogen, male and female libido"... they STILL don't get it. They can't feel the truth of it. They're more visceral than we are.

 

The OW got dumped because NONE of this was about her. H2T might have tried to convince himself otherwise... but in reality, she was just a means to an end; a way to feel okay with leaving the marriage he was feeling so unhappy in, a way to validate his manhood and to feel attractive again.

 

Yeah, it sucks for her that she got her feelings hurt. But from the cradle, we're told not to mess with married men. It was her own choice to defy these social edicts which put her in that position. This is not rocket science afterall.

 

And as it turns out, the OW had her own agenda too it would seem. Because when her wishes went unfulfilled, she turned on H2T quick enough, seeking vengeance for his failings. It would appear that in the end, she bore no more REAL love for him than he did for her.

 

 

On the matter of prositutes... this too is a good example of the difference between male and female viewpoint. Women, for the most part, are going to be MORE offended by their partner's use of a prostitute than by an affair. We don't like to be reminded that men can compartmentalize the sexual function to the point of having ZERO emotional meaning. From our viewpoint, if you can objectify one woman, what stops you from objectifying your wife as well?

 

This is how guys get in trouble. They aren't careful enough in verbally defining the emotional aspects of sexual bonding with the woman they truly love. If your woman starts feeling like she's just a "hole" to you... hey, you've stepped in sh*t. ,

 

 

 

 

I have been on 7-8 sites in the 8 yrs since my Dh's affair. (Yes, it still hurts, but it has eased, and I am not angry EVERY day now!) I haven't had too many posts strike a cord of truth so well to me, ever. You are wise beyond your years. We are doing great now have survived one sons' death, cancer total loss through fire of our home.... together. But, it resonated within me when you said the words that he really didn't know that he was loved. Exactly my dear husbands then. Believe me. He knows now!!!!!!!!!!!!!