Author norajane Posted January 18, 2007 Author Posted January 18, 2007 Thanks, ddl - the comfort is much appreciated!!! And this thread is helping me sort through all my thoughts, so I am listening to and thinking about what people are saying. That sentence you didn't understand was messed up. It should have read more like: I didn't bring up this issue because I wanted to break up; I brought it up because I wanted us to work through it and get past it. If I ignore him now, he's going to believe I don't want to talk with him, so how is that going to help us work through it? If he thinks I don't want to talk, he's not gonna talk!
dropdeadlegs Posted January 18, 2007 Posted January 18, 2007 Now THAT makes sense. Hmmm...maybe he could use a little LS to prompt him to sort out his thoughts. Of course I mean "prompt" in the most gentle of ways. Like prompt him to make the first move towards getting past this and NOW! Real gently, like that. Sleep well, norajane, it's way past my bedtime, but another LS friend really need some late night help. I type slowly with lots of errors and proofreading and it was a long post to my friend in need. I'm tired!
Ariadne Posted January 18, 2007 Posted January 18, 2007 I'm sitting here thinking the emails are good because he'll usually disappear for longer without contact. Yeah, that's pretty good. I'd say go with the flow, and throw in some thoughts every once in a while as long as you are feeling them, like, I miss your touch or whatever. Good luck, Ariadne
Touche Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 I completely understand about keeping the lines of communication open. But for how long? Until you forget about it and it gets swept under the rug? I think that's what he's hoping for. Isn't it going on a month now? That's a bit extreme, NJ. I can see a week or MAYBE even two...and that's stretching it. But how long do you think it's reasonable to keep those "lines of communication" open without bringing up what's really at issue here? And yes, without the games and the pretense that all is copasetic. Because you know it's really not. Do you want to get into a never ending cycle? Say you'll maybe be able to let it go this time. You'll tell yourself it's no big deal and it's in the past and that maybe he will do better in the future. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. That's for you to decide. Maybe every issue that comes up will be handled the same way. NJ will express her displeasure, BF will retreat but NJ will keep all those lines of communications open (while not TRULY doing so) until the whole thing blows over without ever being addressed at all. And so the cycle repeats itself. Or maybe not.... It's really up to YOU how this plays out.
dropdeadlegs Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 I'm not norajane's personal assistant, but it's been less than a week (jan 13 was the first post) , not anywhere near a month. I don't want to hijack her thread and as such will not converse further until she does. Personally, I hope they are working things out right now! But she will handle him in her own time and in her own way.
D-Lish Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 Being in limbo is a crappy place to exist... I know, I've been there! It's so stifling! Is he always bad at communicating? I'd just want to scream "WHAT DO YOU WANT???"
Touche Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 "I don't know if it's patience. I have enough of a problem with what he did that I could have chosen to just break up with him and not even try to work through this. In the past, I probably would have, and thus our pattern would continue. But I figured it couldn't hurt to see if we could somehow resolve it instead - that we need to learn to deal with problems instead of just breaking up. Maybe we can deal with this problem, maybe we can't. Either way, I sat on it for 3 weeks before talking with him because I wanted to make sure I was up for the task of working it out. So, I feel I should give him time to think." That's where I got the idea of three weeks. It took you three weeks just to work up the nerve to talk to him about something that bothered you and was legitimate? You wanted to make sure that YOU were up to the task of "working it out?" I'm sorry, NJ, but I don't think that was the issue. You wanted to make sure that HE was/is up to the task of working it out. And you're not so sure that he is. That's the real reason that you waited that long, in my opinion. You need to confront this with him and see if he'll rise to the occasion...or let him go. Because you know as well as we all do, that if he can't rise to the occasion and be upfront and honest, then he's simply not for you.
cbl Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 norajane, sorry that you have to go through the pain. i read quite a few of your posts and realize you are the kind of woman who's loving, independent, strong, and in control of your own emotions. and you are probably also very forgiving. i don't know about your BF but there are people who take advantage of that. they don't see it as playing games; it's simply their ways of handling issues. i don't know if you remembered about my story, but i remembered reading your comments. my ex is one of those people. when he lied and i caught him, we get into NC. i refused to talk to him then he would always come back to me. he knew i was mad with him about the lies, so he approached me with other issues like he bought me something during his trip because he missed me - just to test water and see if i was still mad at him on the issue. if i did not say anything (and he knew i am extremely forgiving) he would not want to mention it and just let it pass. he did it because he knew he still have to lie to me in the future (due to his situation if you know what i mean) and he can not and will not deal with that issue. i changed the pattern by not talking to him unless he brought up the issue by himself and we discussed about it. but my situation is probably different from yours. you have so much love for your BF because of your history but for me, i had nothing to lose because i never had him and will never have him. i tried to start dating when we went NC and when i think i had enough. i guess this is the most difficult part, to decide when is enough. but no one can help you make that decision but yourself. i don't know how to comfort you only hope that my story will help you in some ways.
Author norajane Posted January 19, 2007 Author Posted January 19, 2007 I completely understand about keeping the lines of communication open. But for how long? Until you forget about it and it gets swept under the rug? I think that's what he's hoping for. It's only been a week. I'm sure he is hoping this does get swept under the rug. I wish I could forget it. But I can't, and I won't. Maybe every issue that comes up will be handled the same way. NJ will express her displeasure, BF will retreat but NJ will keep all those lines of communications open (while not TRULY doing so) until the whole thing blows over without ever being addressed at all. And so the cycle repeats itself. The thing is, that's not actually our pattern. Our pattern is usually NJ flies off the handle and leads with her hot Eastern European temper and says all kinds of things in the heat of the moment that she usually regrets later. BF retreats, NJ gets mad all over again at his retreat and then NJ hunts him down repeatedly and forces him to listen to her some more, thereby backing him into a corner. BF then has to react, tells NJ he obviously can't live up to her expecations and that it's too much to for him to handle, and that's when NJ breaks up with him. I'm trying to do it differently this time. Is he always bad at communicating? When it comes to talking about feelings, and when it comes to dealing with conflict with me, yes, he is always bad at communicating. He's not a talker, so if he can't figure out what to DO about it, he feels helpless to fix it. To him, talking doesn't fix problems, it just points out how big the problem is. You wanted to make sure that YOU were up to the task of "working it out?" I'm sorry, NJ, but I don't think that was the issue. You wanted to make sure that HE was/is up to the task of working it out. And you're not so sure that he is. That's the real reason that you waited that long, in my opinion. It's both - I wasn't sure if I wanted to try to work it out, or if I had faith that we could. I also am not sure he is up to the task. You need to confront this with him and see if he'll rise to the occasion...or let him go. Because you know as well as we all do, that if he can't rise to the occasion and be upfront and honest, then he's simply not for you. I did confront him and I am now waiting to see if he'll rise to the occasion. And you're right - if he can't, then he isn't for me. norajane, sorry that you have to go through the pain. i read quite a few of your posts and realize you are the kind of woman who's loving, independent, strong, and in control of your own emotions. and you are probably also very forgiving. i don't know about your BF but there are people who take advantage of that. they don't see it as playing games; it's simply their ways of handling issues. Thank you, cbl. I am a lot of those things you listed, but I am not in control of my emotions. I'm better at it than I used to be, but not entirely. I am forgiving, but it's because I've learned that carrying around hurts and angers and hard feelings is just worse on me in the long run. he knew i was mad with him about the lies, so he approached me with other issues like he bought me something during his trip because he missed me - just to test water and see if i was still mad at him on the issue. if i did not say anything (and he knew i am extremely forgiving) he would not want to mention it and just let it pass. he did it because he knew he still have to lie to me in the future (due to his situation if you know what i mean) and he can not and will not deal with that issue. Yes, my bf does this with smaller issues. He tests the water, he sucks up for a while, but doesn't mention it. When it's a bigger issue, it hasn't worked that way - as I posted above. It always ends with me breaking up with him. i changed the pattern by not talking to him unless he brought up the issue by himself and we discussed about it. but my situation is probably different from yours. you have so much love for your BF because of your history but for me, i had nothing to lose because i never had him and will never have him. i tried to start dating when we went NC and when i think i had enough. i guess this is the most difficult part, to decide when is enough. but no one can help you make that decision but yourself. That's what I'm trying to do - change the pattern. I am not hunting him down to give him another piece of my mind and piling on the things already said. He might be testing the water a bit with the tech talk emails about the CD, but we haven't actually talked or seen each other. I don't want to deal with this over email or phone - I need to see him and either he will bring this issue up, or I will. But I need it to be in person, and I will wait until then. I don't know yet if I've had enough. The issue itself is in the past; I don't have issues with the present and the more recent past - I've been very happy. So I'm not sure I want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Depends on what the baby does. i don't know how to comfort you only hope that my story will help you in some ways. Thank you - it always helps to get different perspectives, and to know I'm not alone.
princessa Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 IThe thing is, that's not actually our pattern. Our pattern is usually NJ flies off the handle and leads with her hot Eastern European temper and says all kinds of things in the heat of the moment that she usually regrets later. BF retreats, NJ gets mad all over again at his retreat and then NJ hunts him down repeatedly and forces him to listen to her some more, thereby backing him into a corner. BF then has to react, tells NJ he obviously can't live up to her expecations and that it's too much to for him to handle, and that's when NJ breaks up with him. Yes, my bf does this with smaller issues. He tests the water, he sucks up for a while, but doesn't mention it. When it's a bigger issue, it hasn't worked that way - as I posted above. It always ends with me breaking up with him. Wow NJ I could've written those same words about my ex... Me hving a temper, him retreating, me with even more temper because of his retrat, him retreating even more... In the end he got so confused by all the half-serious mean words I threw at him during our fights that he didn't even know if he wanted to work it out anymore or not. And in my case I threw an ultimatum and told him to either show me that he can drive the resolution of issues himself once in a while, or I'll be out because I'm tired of always being the one who tries to mend the broken communication lines... I don't know, I'm really curious to see what happens with you.. I find that you're much more tactful in your approach than I have ever been with my ex, and I admire that. But sadly it also gives me hope for reconciliation.. No real advice from me.. just encouragement.. you seem to be doing pretty well in your analysis..
Author norajane Posted January 19, 2007 Author Posted January 19, 2007 Wow NJ I could've written those same words about my ex... Me hving a temper, him retreating, me with even more temper because of his retrat, him retreating even more... In the end he got so confused by all the half-serious mean words I threw at him during our fights that he didn't even know if he wanted to work it out anymore or not. I don't think my bf is used to dealing with people who have bad tempers. He takes everything said to heart, and always ends up asking me if I hate him. No, of course I don't hate him...just because I'm pissed off at something he did doesn't mean I hate him. I'm not a hater. But maybe the way I've let loose in the past when I'm upset makes him think it's about hate. And yes, that makes him think he can't work it out with me even if he wanted to. And in my case I threw an ultimatum and told him to either show me that he can drive the resolution of issues himself once in a while, or I'll be out because I'm tired of always being the one who tries to mend the broken communication lines... I'm trying not to throw out ultimatums. I want him to come to me and tell me what he's going to do, or if he doesn't know, to ask me what he can do. I want him to get it that there are other ways of dealing with issues besides hiding from them or breaking up. I want him to see he's the one who is standing in the threshold and it's not me who pushing him out or bringing him in - he is in this too and he needs to take responsibility for his choices. I don't know, I'm really curious to see what happens with you.. I find that you're much more tactful in your approach than I have ever been with my ex, and I admire that. But sadly it also gives me hope for reconciliation.. No real advice from me.. just encouragement.. you seem to be doing pretty well in your analysis.. I'll let you know what happens. So far, not much has.
princessa Posted January 19, 2007 Posted January 19, 2007 I don't think my bf is used to dealing with people who have bad tempers. He takes everything said to heart, and always ends up asking me if I hate him. My ex used to tell me that he was way too sensitive and could not deal with criticism at all. He also had low self-esteem. This is how he justified his retreating for days/weeks. Me on the other hand, I am not used to dealing with people who ignore me (retreat). I take it to heart just as much as he takes my anger-induced insults to heart. It's a vicious cycle really. So which one of the two is going to break it? My stand on this was: Why am I supposed to always be the first to forgive and make the step forward to work things out? In the end I told myself that I'd always have to treat him like a child and always have to be the bigger person, while he'd have it easy. I don't know maybe I just lost the motivation to work on things. I wanted him to be the one to be proactive just for once! I'm trying not to throw out ultimatums. I want him to come to me and tell me what he's going to do, or if he doesn't know, to ask me what he can do. I want him to get it that there are other ways of dealing with issues besides hiding from them or breaking up. I want him to see he's the one who is standing in the threshold and it's not me who pushing him out or bringing him in - he is in this too and he needs to take responsibility for his choices. I wish I was half as patient and tactful as you are, NJ... But I got quickly tired of trying to "guide" him towards taking responsibility and finding ways to resolve the problems. But there was so much resistance that I got tired of trying to convince him that retreating and forgetting never solves anything.. The last conversation we've had he finally told me that I was right in that regard. Our first 100% honest conversation about communication. But by then we were both too demotivated to do anything about it. I mean when I was faced with this situation all I could think of was the next few arguments where he'd ignore me and I'd try to educate him about how to solve them and waste a ton of energy into trying to get him to talk to me instead of just sweeping things under the rug. Is it worth it?? I truly have no clue.. Sometimes I seriously felt like I was stuck with a kid.
Author norajane Posted January 19, 2007 Author Posted January 19, 2007 Sometimes I seriously felt like I was stuck with a kid. A lot of us are still kids in terms of dealing with issues. We revert back to what we did with our parents and what we learned growing up...theoretically, life experience teaches us more and we get to a place where we can handle issues, but you have to face yourself first and decide if you want to change things. The guy-kids, I think, take longer to look within, and maybe even longer to try to change themselve, if they even want to.
Author norajane Posted January 20, 2007 Author Posted January 20, 2007 Hmmm...maybe he could use a little LS to prompt him to sort out his thoughts. Of course I mean "prompt" in the most gentle of ways. Like prompt him to make the first move towards getting past this and NOW! Real gently, like that. I'd love to have you guys beat some sense into him, real gently like. Anyway, he's made his first move. He wanted to get together last night, but I was busy. And today, he's busy. Not that I believe he was planning on begging me to forgive him, not in so many words, but it appears he's not just going to give up and run away. He knows I won't drop this, so he'll be expecting me to tell him what I need him to do. At this point, I need action from him, not words. So, I'll spell it out for him when I see him.
dropdeadlegs Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 You haven't posted since yesterday evening, and tat was when you he was busy. I hope that today you both managed to find some time to get together and communicate. I consider your silence as "golden." norajane, you have been so honest, even with your own shortcomings, on this (your) thread. I, for one think I know you better for that honesty. I'm short in the LS world, and I thought that people like you had no faults, no problems. Your advice is always so good.... I needed a reminder that regardless of how "together" we seem, that we can still falter. You have given me that reminder. It has also reminded me that when I post what I think of as strong advice, that maybe I will need to listen to myself at some point in the future. Our own situations are fraught with emotion and it is far easier to see another's without the personal connection. Be strong, keep your head high, admit when you are wrong, and forgive when you are right. Not bad words to live by.
Author norajane Posted January 22, 2007 Author Posted January 22, 2007 Wow - thank you, ddl. You're very kind. You're right, giving advice is a matter of analysis, logic and reason, and our emotions don't allow us to see so clearly when we're in the midst of it. Even if we can see it, our emotions make it a lot harder to do what may be obvious to everyone else. There's a need for the strong advice, and I think it always does some good, even if it's not immediately acted on. We're all human, and therefore, we're all imperfect. I have many shortcomings - what you see here is merely the tip of the iceberg! I try to overcome them, but I think I've only gotten so far as to recognize them and maybe have been able to work on a few of them...it's a start. I'm far more forgiving of other people's shortcomings than I am of my own. As for the guy, no we didn't find time together this weekend. I've woken up the last two mornings feeling angry with him, and angry with myself; and wondering why I ever thought that "this time" we'd get it right, wondering if I'd always overestimated our friendship, wondering if I'd always overestimated my importance to him, wondering if my smart, sexy lover was really just a figment of my imagination.
Ariadne Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 We're all human, and therefore, we're all imperfect I disagree. Would you say that a bird is imperfect, or a flower? Ariadne
MagnoliaJane Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 Hi NoraJane, I know we all express our affections differently, that is to say your partner's ways are as human as any other reaction... That being said, I sense that his way of reacting is conditioning your behavior. His repeated retreats will only make you more hesitant to speak up next time. Repeatedly retreating during conflict may be a sign of passive-agressiveness. I found a NYTimes article on this subject refreshing. Just google passive-agressive and New York Times. Let me know what you think. I both acknowledge and admire your willingness to work on your relationship. Just remember it takes two to tango... If your SO prefers to stand at the sideline for now, then dance alone for a while. Don't give up dancing.
Author norajane Posted January 23, 2007 Author Posted January 23, 2007 We're all human, and therefore, we're all imperfect I disagree. Would you say that a bird is imperfect, or a flower? Ariadne All humans have their shortcomings and internal struggles - no one makes all the right decisions and choices all the time. No one treats others or themselves in the best way possible. Expecting people to be perfect is setting yourself up for disappointment, I think. As for birds and flowers, if they lied and flew away from their problems, if they failed to open because of intimacy issues, then yes, they aren't perfect either.
Author norajane Posted January 23, 2007 Author Posted January 23, 2007 Hi NoraJane, I know we all express our affections differently, that is to say your partner's ways are as human as any other reaction... That being said, I sense that his way of reacting is conditioning your behavior. His repeated retreats will only make you more hesitant to speak up next time. Repeatedly retreating during conflict may be a sign of passive-agressiveness. I found a NYTimes article on this subject refreshing. Just google passive-agressive and New York Times. Let me know what you think. I both acknowledge and admire your willingness to work on your relationship. Just remember it takes two to tango... If your SO prefers to stand at the sideline for now, then dance alone for a while. Don't give up dancing. I've been in a relationship with a PA guy before...this is different. This is just plain old avoidance, hiding while the storm passes and the sun comes out again. I'm not sure if his retreats make me more hesitatant to speak up next time. Maybe. I do hesitate on smaller things; it's only the big things that I confront him on. So I might be conditioned to only take a stand when it's really important. I think the retreats make me more likely to give up, though. If he can't deal with issues in any other way than to retreat, then we don't have much of a future. So maybe I won't bring something up, but it will be one of the straws that eventually breaks the camel's back and I walk away. I struggled with that this time - do I want to just walk away? Either way, it's not healthy for a relationship.
MagnoliaJane Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 Does he ever get mad? If so, how does he expect you to react when that happens? I'm trying to get a picture of his personality
Ariadne Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 As for birds and flowers, if they lied and flew away from their problems, if they failed to open because of intimacy issues, then yes, they aren't perfect either. Oh, birds and flowers are smarter than humans with that. People complicate things way too much. (so your guy doesn't want to open up, so he had another gf, so he likes Pepsi... it's all very simple) Ariadne
Touche Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 Usually, not always though, when you start questioning if you want to walk away or not, it's the beginning stages of really walking away. I really believe that. And you're right. Right now this isn't a healthy relationship.
Author norajane Posted January 23, 2007 Author Posted January 23, 2007 Does he ever get mad? If so, how does he expect you to react when that happens? I'm trying to get a picture of his personality Noooo, he never gets mad! I cannot recall one instance of him ever being mad at me. He doesn't criticize; he's very laid back. He gets annoyed at stupid drivers and car engineers that make battery cases hard to remove. He gets irritated by a clueless manager, and he'll get frustrated at spreadsheets. But I've never seen him blow up or yell or get sulky or do anything. So, I never have to react to any anger aimed at me.
MagnoliaJane Posted January 23, 2007 Posted January 23, 2007 Seems to me he's not in touch with his own anger... ...which makes it understandable why he walks away during conflict. Do you know of one relationship where anger does not exist? It's normal to get upset with our SO's now and then, for one we're all human... ugh... this is going to require a significant change on his behalf. How old is he?
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