The Triangle - BW and OW only

[Romeo Must Die]

As a BW, I didn't have an affair. I never have and never will (and don't lecture me on that comment as I am known to be quite stubborn and set in my ways once I've made up my mind about something) but being inexperienced with affairs, of course I have lots of questions. The main one is the triangle between three people involved in an affair.

 

In my situtation, I see all the ways that OW kept us apart. She didn't allow us to work through our problems without interference, siding with him, pushing him to leave, etc. The kids were just the hook she needed to manipulate WS to be with her.

 

Lets say for example we had a fight over the kids (for the eleventy billionth time). Instead of coming together to resolve it, working as a team, he went to her to bitch about me, involving another player who would side with him no questions asked. The child would be spoiled by her and the childs behavior overlooked as my bad parenting skills. Situation resolved. Nevermind there was a fringe benefit of sex for WS that was also involved. Nevermind WS is a conflict avoider. Nevermind WS period. He's caused enough problems. I want it from the women's point of view.

 

The problems with the kids naturally remained unresolved. He sees her as a refuge to escape the problems when we disagree over our kids, and this becomes a pattern with everything. They develop a bond, an US against HER situation where I'm always wrong and they are always right. Now the problem is compounded (in their favor) and then lies added to that (never wanting children) makes it irreconcilable at that time, between me and my WS. Add in the fact that I am pregnant in my last trimester and having just lost a son in an accident. I am in a vacuume dealing with real life marriage issues. Alone.

 

She would go to the park and approach my seven year old daughter. I asked her to leave and she would laugh and say "It's a free park bitch!" Then she went to my daughters school to visit my 1st grade daughter without my permission, she found herself slapped with a restraining order to keep away from my child. The battle begins. The RO cannot be enforced if I dont know she is around them. She instigates WS to sneak the kids over to the house and makes them promise the kids not to tell me or I will punish them. She purchases gifts to keep their affections, and so on. It's fu*cked up, but its the truth. It really happened.

 

When I see my married friends fighting, having problems with their kids, etc, I don't get involved. I stay out of their business. However, as far as OW relationship with WS I could say since the OW did not mind interferring with my marriage, my weakness' and my problems, then I didn't mind staying out of her affair either. I took messing with my kids quite personally and I made it my hobby to fu*ck with her until the affair crashed and burned. I could also turn on the charm and sway WS back to me as well as she could.

 

I want both the Pros and Cons. When you fight/fought, was it about BW/OW or was it only the specific issues between the two AP/MPs - or was it both? Did BW/OW come between you, did she keep you apart? For the OW, was it a relationship that was more intense because of the drama involved? Do you think your feelings would be equally as intense (in a normal SG/SG relationship) without all the risk and danger? Did their issues/problems give you a reason to be together?

 

Also, any other discussions re: the triangle are welcome. Do not lie. Be honest, or sign in as guest to respond.

 

[Chapter2]

It's hard to respond because honestly, the OW in your triangle is a complete nutcase psycho that should be in lock down...that's just my opinion.

 

But, doesn't he bear some of the weight of not allowing you to work on the problems in the marriage since he was part of the affair? I don't absolve her of anything as I honestly believe we all have to own our own crap, but it seems like HE helped keep the two of you apart, HE didn't allow you to work through your problems without interference, HE was an active participant... HE did a LOT to make your life a living hell that could probably make you a millionaire several times over if you sold the movie rights...Oh wait, that movie was made....I think its called Fatal Attraction.

 

I see all the ways that OW kept us apart. She didn't allow us to work through our problems without interference, siding with him, pushing him to leave, etc. The kids were just the hook she needed to manipulate WS to be with her.

[BenThereDunThat]

I agree with Chapter2 on the OW in your situation being a total psychotic.

 

Except for the actual A, which I know was quite interference enough, I never fought with him about the state of his marriage. We simply did not talk about it. At first, he wanted to. Said he felt like it was the 800 lb. gorilla in the middle of the room that we were ignoring. He was just using a phrase though - he never once said anything negative about his wife to me. One night I finally told him ok, I'm ready to discuss the story of your marriage now. Lay it on me. He said no, we're not "ready" yet. Meaning, he knew I'd had my running shoes on for a while at that point and couldn't jeopardize my doing the final sprint.

 

The most I ever did was google her - and I felt quite creepy doing even that. I ended up unearthing a photo of the two of them from their church newsletter. Which really cracked me up - oh, the irony! That was the first time I even knew what she looked like. First time I even knew they were so active in church. Another thing he never once discussed with me.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

My H and I do not believe in airing our "dirty laundry". So we don't confide in other people about the fights that we have - much less confiding in a "friend" of the opposite sex.

 

If your H runs to the OW and tells her about your fights, then he is obviously not interested in resolving the fight with you. He is more interested in healing his bruised ego!

 

I think that instead of getting angry at the OW, you should really look deep into the man that you married. It is in his character to want to create this "triangle" as a way of dealing with the troubles at home.

 

I usually don't side with the OWs when they ask why the BS would take their WS back. But I am beginning to think that men who are willing to cheat and create a juxtapose pseudo-relationship as crutches, are not real men at all. They are kids, and the Ws should dump them.

 

JMO.

[kymberann]

In all honesty your OW give the majority of OW a bad name. Weird I know but your OW has gone beyond the point of no return on this one. Sounds like she thrived from the chaos and conflict. That is something I really did not enjoy. I did not enjoy the triangle and kept it to a minimum in hopes of a future with MM, yes, but I didn't want the conflict or triangle.

 

I guess you should ask yourself why did MM really get hooked up with such a person? There must have been some pay off?

Best

[GreenEyedLady]

When you fight/fought, was it about BW/OW or was it only the specific issues between the two AP/MPs - or was it both? Did BW/OW come between you, did she keep you apart? For the OW, was it a relationship that was more intense because of the drama involved? Do you think your feelings would be equally as intense (in a normal SG/SG relationship) without all the risk and danger? Did their issues/problems give you a reason to be together?

 

I really think of it as "heated discussion," as opposed to fight...it happens occasionally, when I feel I am missing out and think he should make a choice...we don't argue about it, though, more like talk it through...I am very open about wanting more...and since I wasn't aware that he was married from the get-go, I felt like I am in something I wouldn't have chose if I knew the reality of the situation...And mostly, it's not that I want him to leave her, but a situation that he says he is not happy in...

 

but we NEVER fight about her, why would we? Our R is separate from theirs in my eyes...we don't really talk about his M very much at all...

 

When I first got involved with him, it was just a regular old R, I thought...in that I mean that I didn't know it was different from anyone else's because I didn't know he was married...It is a better R in many ways than any other I have been in...he is the only one I have ever been able to open my mouth up and communicate my needs...he is the only man I have ever trusted with all my secrets...he is the only man who has really accepted me the way I am...and this was BEFORE I found out...

 

And our R is intense because we are a good match in a lot of ways and we love each other...I think if two single people have the same thing it's just as intense, it's just not a big deal because they are single...Risk and danger are for adrenaline junkies, and I want none of that...we have a pretty normal R...we go out and do things and stay in when we want to...

 

Their issues I believe led to him having an A, but that's not what is keeping us together now...Their issues are between them...

 

I hope this answers your Q's...

[bonehead]

Shes a nut job.

 

She thrives on conflict.

 

Her actions not only should a total lack of respect for you ( yes you can be the OP and have some respect for the BS ) but she also showed a total lack of respect for the kids.

[GreenEyedLady]

Shes a nut job.

 

She thrives on conflict.

 

Her actions not only should a total lack of respect for you ( yes you can be the OP and have some respect for the BS ) but she also showed a total lack of respect for the kids.

 

100% agreement...

[Can'tGiveUp]

In my situation, MM and I were involved with each other when we were both separated (I still am) and considered ourselves single. That is where our R developed. After he had been separated for more than a year, W asked him to come back and try again. For many reasons, he did. We ended everything so that he could try and repair his M.

 

Over the next year and a half we were essentially NC. If we did run into each other it was polite and friendly. It was after one of these meetings that we decided we needed to keep seeing each other. After much debate and discussion we ended up where we are now.

 

That being said, I will admit that I have met his W a few times, though I wouldn't say I know her. I don't really recall much about her. He does not say anything bad about her, though he will relate factual things to me, which I do not respond to. I am not there to judge.

 

We don't discuss his homelife unless it will impact me in some way. He does not claim that it is terrible and awful. Like any M, it is bound to have its ups and downs.

 

The bottom line is that he knows my thoughts and views about marriage and children and happiness. I am not there to stroke his ego or boost his position on the raising of their kids. He doesn't have to ask my opinion on things because he knows it.

 

Do I have respect for W? No, probably not. I think she is manipulative and selfish, but I would never ever tell him that. He needs to see that for himself. And this is based on what I have seen and known her to do and say.

 

I do have a great deal of respect for his children and for him and for their relationship. I do not interfere in his relationship with them. I have my own children and their happiness and well being comes before anything else in my life.

 

Our R certainly does not thrive on the rush of it being a secret. If anything we find that the most difficult to deal with. That was not part of our original R and it is a challenge to modify our behavior.

 

RMD - I am sorry that you have gone through all the difficulties that you have been faced with. And I have to agree with the other posters that the OW in your case is not indicative of all OW. She sounds like she is beyond 'seriously disturbed'.

[NoIDidn't]

I had nothing to do with the OW in my case. I only spoke to her once to find out a piece of info. Kept it short and sweet. Not even 2 minutes went by.

 

I don't think she came between me and H either. I think he did that all by himself. He was too afraid to tell me what was on his mind. He would run to just about anyone that would listen to discuss my shortcomings, but never to me.

 

But that's what happens when you deal with a person that normally deals in triangular relationships. I read a book once on triangles, and there are many kinds. A parent/parent/child relationship is triangular in many aspects. Both parents meet a different set of needs for the child. And its healthy for the child.

 

People triangulate their relationships because of the need to appear as they would like to be seen. If in one relationship you are a wuss and the other you are a knight in shining armor, you get to play two roles. One you want, one you don't want.

 

RMD, I don't know why your H would choose such a manipulative woman, other than the possibilty that in such a small town she was all that was available? <an attempt to inject humor> But seriously, she sounds completely whacked out. Totally psycho. Anyone in his family remind you of her? Maybe that's it. An inner child demon he's trying to work through. Cause she is sick. Sick. Sick. Sick.

[Trialbyfire]

RMD, it makes me sick to hear about anyone who would use the children as pawns like that. I don't care which nut-job piece of the triangle it was, kids should be sacrosanct.

 

The OW in my situation was also deliberately creating problems and completely remorseless about it. The very sad part was that she only wanted to sleep with him. I also had the displeasure of talking to the OW in our situation. As I've mentioned in previous threads, she continued pursuing even when he dumped her hard.

[frannie]

I'd like to reiterate the comments of most of the other posters on this thread re: the extreme actions of the OW involved with your H. I have no idea why she was involved with your children at all. But the biggest question for me is why did your H feel the need to involve someone like that in your lives, and continue turning to her time after time... even when she was doing these things..?

 

I want both the Pros and Cons. When you fight/fought, was it about BW/OW or was it only the specific issues between the two AP/MPs - or was it both? Did BW/OW come between you, did she keep you apart? For the OW, was it a relationship that was more intense because of the drama involved? Do you think your feelings would be equally as intense (in a normal SG/SG relationship) without all the risk and danger? Did their issues/problems give you a reason to be together?

 

Also, any other discussions re: the triangle are welcome.

 

I'm probably not going to add anything useful to you here either, because I don't consider my affair to be a triangle as such. They live in a different town, I don't know her or their children, and we never argue about her at all. She doesn't know anything about me either. So... there's no drama on that score.

 

I'd say that, far from being high on 'drama' and intensity, our relationship has been quite the opposite. It's taken a long time for us to get to know each other... it's the first time I've been involved with someone for so long and yet it's not 'commited' yet. So I've been holding off with my heart (and truly believing that it's happening, or likely to last)... although at the same time this has meant I've got to know the man in a fuller sense than with previous partners where love and diving in feet first has too often been my approach. In many ways he's still (in my mind) on probation... he still has to 'prove' himself worthy of me... I love him, but I've kept a huge part of myself back until he comes up with the goods.

 

Well, that's well off the point of the thread, but... well, all affairs aren't the same. It's not all about drama and conflict. But, to talk about the conflicts we have had... they're simply about this: it is a strain to keep something back when you WANT to believe in a person... and it takes its toll. The times when I've blown up with him have been because of the stresses of this... and my fears that I'll be left out in the cold, and my other fears that if we DO get together and it doesn't work out, I'll feel incredibly guilty for that too.

 

Would my feelings be less intense if it weren't an affair..? I don't know. They would certainly be different. Perhaps if we'd met and he was single, we'd have gone crashing into something suddenly and it wouldn't have worked out this way... All I can know is that I'm holding off really devoting myself to him, really feeling 'at home'... because of the fears I mentioned above.

 

Did their issues/problems give us a reason for the affair? Not in the way you describe in your situation, no. But in another way, yes. I think he was stifled and unhappy before he met me. In the couple of years I've known him I've watched him 'unfurl' from a position of defensiveness and negativity to one of being happy in himself, laughing more, and doing things he claimed he 'never did'... singing a little song, showing confidence and openness in how he relates to me. And getting mushier and more likely to present his vulnerable side, or admit he's wrong now and then . I suppose that being able to really be that person is what was missing for him... and that's why he's continued to see me... and why he fell in love with me.

[Romeo Must Die]

But the biggest question for me is why did your H feel the need to involve someone like that in your lives, and continue turning to her time after time... even when she was doing these things..?

 

Thats a whole other thread, lol. Romeo was a messed up guy. Don't we all just love the messed up men in our lives? He didn't posess good parenting skills and he is also a child of infidelity. His father abandoned his mother and the two teens. They lost their house. He shoveled, mowed and raked to help put food on the table while their dad was in Mexico vacationing with the OW. He shut his dad out of his life. They didn't start talking again until we were married and started having kids of our own and even still, they only get along but from a distance.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. I believe in free will. We are all free to choose our paths in life. It's more honest that way. When the friendship with OW began, I didn't like it. It got too close too fast. All of the sudden she is in our lives and buying gifts for the kids when I didn't buy such things for even my best friends kids. He began making statements like "OW has a job, why don't you have a job, RMD?" But telling him he was wrong when he felt he was right (entitlement) just made him fight even harder for it. He had to learn the hard way or else he would never learn his lesson.

 

Randy had an extra set of keys for his vehicle that he made exclusively for his dad so he would never take his keys away from him. The keychain said, "Some people are just born stupid, but you are abusing the privilege."

 

[pureinheart]

I want both the Pros and Cons. When you fight/fought, was it about BW/OW or was it only the specific issues between the two AP/MPs - or was it both? Did BW/OW come between you, did she keep you apart? For the OW, was it a relationship that was more intense because of the drama involved? Do you think your feelings would be equally as intense (in a normal SG/SG relationship) without all the risk and danger? Did their issues/problems give you a reason to be together?

 

Also, any other discussions re: the triangle are welcome. Do not lie. Be honest, or sign in as guest to respond.

 

 

Triangle: First met MM in 00'...at work, he seemed to be everywhere I was. We started talking and I remember him hating his W...I told him to take her to dinner, flowers....nope he totally rejected that, I got discusted and would not talk to him anymore.

 

We got laid off and I moved to VA w/H...he got my email addy and I tried the same thing again, was rejected...wrote him back no longer.

 

Moved back home after 9/11 and got called back to old job, there he was again, but now we were in the same area and working on the same project.....my M was on it's way out and I was vulnerable....he showered me with small but thoughtful things....he didn't cut W down anymore and was helping me a lot...everybody told me how abusive his family was to him.....I fell for all of it hook, line and sinker....D H.....this is now 2004.

 

I felt like there was some sick game going on between him and his W and I was in the middle. She has caught him cheating on her several times...she has turned into a watch dog and PI, and the kids watch his every move and either report it to mom or blackmail him.

 

Remembering what was going on when first meeting him, before getting involved suggested he get out. After seeing more of the lack of respect and hatred his family had for him pushed the issue (not for him to be with me)and that was what the majority of the fighting was about.

 

I was unable to understand why he would stay in such an abusive situation....knowing he was abusive also, felt he wouldn't be that way outside of the M, felt that was triggering it. It wasn't until later that he became subltly abusive to me....a lot of game playing and manipulation.

 

Towards the end, the fighting/differences was more about making up his mind....not to leave to be with me, but to get out of the sickness...I just can't understand why people would want to stay in something sick.

 

He told me he loved both of us???? Excuse me???? He said he had little communication w/W, and priddy much stayed in his yard....I believe that. There is a real strong possibility that she has cheated on him also.

 

MM and W give disfunction a whole new meaning, they both drug the kids into their screwed up M from day one. I believe the lifestyle was not a wholesome one....

 

I didn't keep him from her, and she didn't keep him from me....he did what he wanted to do....he was confused all of the time, one minite saying one thing and the next minite the other....example: He told me if he got caught he would wait for the dust to settle and be on his way again...then in almost the same breath say well she might leave me....Pick one!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is the first time this has happened to me....didn't understand the drama/risk....hated every minite of it. In a true relationship there should be no drama or risk.

 

Yes...the bad M was an excuse for him to continue on this deceptive road....COWARD....instead of being straight up....lies, lies and more lies.

 

I know this might sound crazy to some of you, although there was this strange, evil hold he had on me....there was something sooooo weak inside of me that allowed this hold. All my better judgement was out the door behind this mess.

 

The evil involved could be cut like a knife....I strongly believe he was a tool meant for my destruction.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm probably not going to add anything useful to you here either, because I don't consider my affair to be a triangle as such. They live in a different town, I don't know her or their children, and we never argue about her at all.

 

Triangular relationships are not defined by whether or not you live in the same town and its not based on you. Its based on him. He is the one in two relationships - hence the triangle. He gets to be something and someone different in each relationship. It may be that having you in his life makes staying M to her possible. But once a relationship meant for two is triangulated, the other two legs are ALWAYS shortchanged for the benefit of the one in the middle.

[NoIDidn't]

MM and W give disfunction a whole new meaning, they both drug the kids into their screwed up M from day one. I believe the lifestyle was not a wholesome one....

 

Yep. These folks sound sick. But there is hope for them. This is the worst kind of triangle. They are both users (of people) to their own ends and end up destroying everyone around them in their attempt to destroy each other.

[frannie]

Triangular relationships are not defined by whether or not you live in the same town and its not based on you. Its based on him. He is the one in two relationships - hence the triangle. He gets to be something and someone different in each relationship. It may be that having you in his life makes staying M to her possible. But once a relationship meant for two is triangulated' date=' the other two legs are ALWAYS shortchanged for the benefit of the one in the middle.[/quote']

 

The way I read the OP, RMD was asking particularly about the women involved in an affair, and how they might interact (either directly, or through the man involved to undermine the other, or cause problems in the marriage, or whatever). It was in that regard that I said I didn't consider my situation to be 'a triangle as such', for the reasons I gave: we rarely talk about his marriage, and she doesn't know of my existence. Yes, it is one man having relationships with two women, and that's often referred to as a 'love triangle', but to me it looks more like a 'V'... the other angles don't exist.

 

For the rest of what you said here: "he gets something and someone different in each relationship... etc." well that's a good theory that possibly explains a lot of affairs. And may even explain why my particular MM is in an affair. But since you don't know him any better than I do, and I see no evidence in him of some kind of need and split of this kind, I'd say you were making a generalisation and assumption. Not everyone in an affair is in it because they need two people in their lives, or have engineered things so that this is the case. Sometimes it happens that you're married to one person and fall for another person, and it's NOT at all what you want.

 

You also talk about "a relationship meant for two". Well, I would say that's a very socially-determined way of looking at things, and again makes assumptions about how things 'should be' and suggests that if they're not that way then the people in those situations are in some way deficient (I'm not talking about affairs per se there: the whole lying in relationships thing is something else).

[bonehead]

The way I read the OP, RMD was asking particularly about the women involved in an affair, and how they might interact (either directly, or through the man involved to undermine the other, or cause problems in the marriage, or whatever). It was in that regard that I said I didn't consider my situation to be 'a triangle as such', for the reasons I gave: we rarely talk about his marriage, and she doesn't know of my existence. Yes, it is one man having relationships with two women, and that's often referred to as a 'love triangle', but to me it looks more like a 'V'... the other angles don't exist.

 

But it does exist.

 

His whole involvment with you undermines his marriage. She doesnt have to know you are there for your presense to be noticable.

[frannie]

But it does exist.

 

His whole involvment with you undermines his marriage. She doesnt have to know you are there for your presense to be noticable.

 

Oh, I didn't mean there were no effects on his marriage. Whether it undermines it (as you suggest) or makes it liveable-with (as NoIDidn't suggested)... well, it could be either of those things. And I have no idea which, and since we don't know what would have happened had he not been in an affair, there's no real way of knowing.

 

I meant exactly what I said in my first post, no more and no less. But it was quite a lot, and it's on the first page (not wishing to restate it all )

[bonehead]

Oh, I didn't mean there were no effects on his marriage. Whether it undermines it (as you suggest) or makes it liveable-with (as NoIDidn't suggested)... well, it could be either of those things. And I have no idea which, and since we don't know what would have happened had he not been in an affair, there's no real way of knowing.

 

Yeah, the " What if game " doesnt work.

 

Sorry, when I read your post it sounded like you were saying it had no effect.

[frannie]

Yeah, the " What if game " doesnt work.

 

Sorry, when I read your post it sounded like you were saying it had no effect.

 

No, I didn't mean that, but I'm not expressing myself very well on this thread for some reason. I just wish I'd never used the phrase 'not a triangle as such' durr me.

[bonehead]

No, I didn't mean that, but I'm not expressing myself very well on this thread for some reason. I just wish I'd never used the phrase 'not a triangle as such' durr me.

 

 

Its the stress of the season. yeah thats it

[frannie]

Its the stress of the season. yeah thats it

 

Oh yes... that'll be it

[Trialbyfire]

But it does exist.

 

His whole involvment with you undermines his marriage. She doesnt have to know you are there for your presense to be noticable.

Bang on. Attitudes towards BW changes a lot. Unless you're a woman who's completely insensitive to your s/o, you will notice. I call it your spidey-sense but it's your subconscious noting slight or substantial differences.

[pureinheart]

Yep. These folks sound sick. But there is hope for them. This is the worst kind of triangle. They are both users (of people) to their own ends and end up destroying everyone around them in their attempt to destroy each other.

 

Wow NoIDidn't, I read your reply at work and couldn't believe how you were able to communicate what had happened to me and other people they come into contact with. I was able to release a lot of anger and bitterness with this understanding.

 

Am able to tell my own story, although haven't understood a lot....thank you so much