Discussion on Topic Brought Up In Another Thread

[BenThereDunThat]

I didn't want to thread-jack the guest's thread, "Why is he attracted to me" but wanted to comment on RMD's mention of affair-down.

 

I have to say that was the case with me and the exMM. I'm not saying this to put myself down. The fact is, his W is very accomplished, just as educated as he is (maybe more so for all I know). He's been fired from one company, started his own that subsequently failed.

 

Being honest and objective I have to say that I know now I was fueling his ego by the very fact that he was more accomplished than me, he could feel superior as far as professional accomplishments around me.

 

I knew in the back of my mind that this was probably the case, but couldn't admit it to myself.

 

And yes, I have heard the term before. RMD didn't make it up. I know that's not the case in all A's, but in mine I'm sure it was. Even though it hurts to admit that he wasn't so deeply in love with me as he wanted me to believe.

[GreenEyedLady]

That it is not the case in my R...I am actually more educated, (although he does have a degree, I just have more), a professional and attractive...I am just younger...I think the term is quite rude and used to divide...

[frannie]

I've made several posts on here about how pointless it is to make comparisons between any of the people in affairs (W, MM, OW, OM, H, etc.). I have never compared myself in that way to his W, or to him, for that matter. I just don't look at people that way. I think that things like this CAN be an issue, if one or more of the people involved in an affair have some kind of interest in this kind of thing, or hang-up, or ego issue or self-esteem issue going on. But generalising is always pointless.

[Romeo Must Die]

When Romeo was in the affair, he put me down and demonized me to gain the OW's affections. He downplayed the marriage and who I really was to her. FF two years later, we reconcilled, but everything got turned around. He put her down and downplayed the affair. He rejected her. It's confusing and I still don't know what to believe.

 

Why would you betray me and risk throwing it all away for a peanut butter sandwich? I'm sure it was satisfying at the time, it was probably delicious as it is nutritious, but then it got stale. You realized you didn't want it anymore. You realized you hated peanut butter after all. It wasn't good enough for you anymore. WTF.

 

[frannie]

When Romeo was in the affair, he put me down and demonized me to gain the OW's affections. He downplayed the marriage and who I really was to her. FF two years later, we reconcilled, but everything got turned around. He put her down and downplayed the affair. He rejected her. It's confusing and I still don't know what to believe.

 

Why would you betray me and risk throwing it all away for a peanut butter sandwich? I'm sure it was satisfying at the time, it was probably delicious as it is nutritious, but then it got stale. You realized you didn't want it anymore. You realized you hated peanut butter after all. It wasn't good enough for you anymore. WTF.

 

 

Why does any man lie about the other woman in his life, whether it is W or OW..? Just to get his way? Maybe he is being honest about what happened, and how he viewed her, if he's calling her 'peanut butter'. Who can say. But in my opinion you're right in what you say: if she was just that to him, then why risk his marriage and everything else for it..?

 

Good questions.

[BenThereDunThat]

I've made several posts on here about how pointless it is to make comparisons between any of the people in affairs (W, MM, OW, OM, H, etc.). I have never compared myself in that way to his W, or to him, for that matter. I just don't look at people that way. I think that things like this CAN be an issue, if one or more of the people involved in an affair have some kind of interest in this kind of thing, or hang-up, or ego issue or self-esteem issue going on. But generalising is always pointless.

 

Aaargh...I am NOT generalizing. I'm simply stating what I KNOW to be true in my situation. No, I don't think he looked at me as a pb&j sandwich either. Nor do I think I'm less worthy than him.

 

ALL I was saying is that he needed someone in his life to be in awe of him, look up to him, because I don't think he felt he impressed his w anymore. In his small mind, he came to see me as that. Based on the way he was always bragging to me, I came to understand that he needed someone to put him on a pedestal. The fact that I am not as formally as educated as him, he thought I would just ooh and aah over him.

 

I wasn't there when his business went under, I wasn't there when he got fired. His w was. He used me to get his shredded ego back. Or he tried to at least.

[pricillia]

Aaargh...I am NOT generalizing. I'm simply stating what I KNOW to be true in my situation. No, I don't think he looked at me as a pb&j sandwich either. Nor do I think I'm less worthy than him.

 

ALL I was saying is that he needed someone in his life to be in awe of him, look up to him, because I don't think he felt he impressed his w anymore. In his small mind, he came to see me as that. Based on the way he was always bragging to me, I came to understand that he needed someone to put him on a pedestal. The fact that I am not as formally as educated as him, he thought I would just ooh and aah over him.

 

I wasn't there when his business went under, I wasn't there when he got fired. His w was. He used me to get his shredded ego back. Or he tried to at least.

 

 

Wow BTDT, at least you can put this all into focus I do admire you for being very very strong here... so how long has it been since you were last with him again, and how long were you together with him?

 

and also we should start a thread on why we OW got involved with MM, what was going on in your life to get involved with him?

[frannie]

Aaargh...I am NOT generalizing. I'm simply stating what I KNOW to be true in my situation. No, I don't think he looked at me as a pb&j sandwich either. Nor do I think I'm less worthy than him.

 

ALL I was saying is that he needed someone in his life to be in awe of him, look up to him, because I don't think he felt he impressed his w anymore. In his small mind, he came to see me as that. Based on the way he was always bragging to me, I came to understand that he needed someone to put him on a pedestal. The fact that I am not as formally as educated as him, he thought I would just ooh and aah over him.

 

I wasn't there when his business went under, I wasn't there when he got fired. His w was. He used me to get his shredded ego back. Or he tried to at least.

 

I didn't think you were generalising. Didn't mean to aim my comments right at you as the OP, but just as a response to the idea of 'affairing down'. That's how it came up on the other thread... tossed in generally as if all OW are 'peanut butter'. But don't get me wrong... RMD is right, I like a good debate, and I don't take anything personally and I expect everyone else to do the same when we're discussing 'affairs in general'.

 

Actually, I don't think that 'affairing down' necessarily is a good theory where 'needing to be adored a little' comes in. The whole idea that one can only look up to/adore someone who has more money/better social position or whatever is hilarious to me. As I said before, I don't look at people that way. I can adore someone who isn't 'above' me in any sense that I can see... why not? And I put 'above' in those little '' things because I think its a silly concept in all senses.

 

The whole 'affair down' concept is based on this idea... that one looks up to or down on people because of certain types of benchmark... income, looks, position, whatever... what is that about? What happened to people and personal qualities?

[BenThereDunThat]

Wow BTDT, at least you can put this all into focus I do admire you for being very very strong here... so how long has it been since you were last with him again, and how long were you together with him?

 

and also we should start a thread on why we OW got involved with MM, what was going on in your life to get involved with him?

 

I believe the last time we were physically together was sometime in May/June. I can't remember exactly because I've worked really hard not to remember.

 

We first connected at last year's holiday party, the after party to be exact. I was sitting down, looking glum and he put his arm around me to ask what was wrong. (I reeled from that touch, quietly and to myself, for days and days after that.)

 

The unspoken (that night anyway) answer to that question was the fact that I was finally coming to terms with the fact that I had made a huge mistake in my marriage, we did not have sex, I realized I missed physical touch, someone to make me feel sexy. Not someone who was just willing to give me bear hugs every time I turned around (the exH did that, I guess that was his idea of physical intimacy). Because you know, when you love cocaine more than anything else, it tends to take a toll on the workings of the penis.... (that's a whole 'nother thread, for a whole 'nother section, not quite ready to go there yet though.)

 

The emotional affair started about 4 weeks after that when he took me to lunch. I had no intention whatsoever of EVER bringing up our little moment at the party. He finally did, I was extremely embarrassed. It was then that the emails started. Lots and lots of deep emails. I see now that I was being reeled in hook, line and sinker. Not excusing my part in this at all though.

 

We actually only did the deed 4 or 5 times. Again, my mind won't let me come up with the exact amount. Anyway, just once is too much. After the physical aspect stopped, the emotional part continued and got even deeper.

 

It was finally the first Friday in October that I made the final step of kicking him out of my heart for good. Haven't spoken to him since.

[BenThereDunThat]

I didn't think you were generalising. Didn't mean to aim my comments right at you as the OP, but just as a response to the idea of 'affairing down'. That's how it came up on the other thread... tossed in generally as if all OW are 'peanut butter'. But don't get me wrong... RMD is right, I like a good debate, and I don't take anything personally and I expect everyone else to do the same when we're discussing 'affairs in general'.

 

Actually, I don't think that 'affairing down' necessarily is a good theory where 'needing to be adored a little' comes in. The whole idea that one can only look up to/adore someone who has more money/better social position or whatever is hilarious to me. As I said before, I don't look at people that way. I can adore someone who isn't 'above' me in any sense that I can see... why not? And I put 'above' in those little '' things because I think its a silly concept in all senses.

 

The whole 'affair down' concept is based on this idea... that one looks up to or down on people because of certain types of benchmark... income, looks, position, whatever... what is that about? What happened to people and personal qualities?

 

I completely agree. I don't look up to people because of their wealth or status. He thought that I would though. Those are the things that are important to him....and that's not what impressed me about him. I was impressed with his accomplishments of course, I would be for anybody. But I didn't revere him for them. If that makes sense.

 

For all his education, I have to say, that most times I felt like his intellectual superior. And I don't mean that snobbishly. I'm a firm believer that a college education doesn't necessarily always equate to intelligence.

[pricillia]

Thank-you for sharing this BTDT......

 

Everyone needs love and affection...I am sorry that it had to be at such an expense though, how hard we try to let go because we know it is wrong. You are very very strong and I know you will keep it up.

 

OK for me I had not been in any kind of relationship for over 5 years and when I was with first MM he constantly e-mailed me but you know I could not stand him at all. But he asked me out to dinner and we talked and then things got physical, but even though I cared about him I never had real feelings for him he was just messing with me. It lasted for about 9 months. We never called eachother outside of work just work e-mails that is all. I was really afraid to be intimate with a man again after so many years he was so interested in me and that is how it happened. After I ended it I said to myself that I would never do that again, be with a MM.

 

When I met the second I did not know he was a MM as you all know. I had known him for 7 months, like hi and goodby and small talk and thought that he was a great guy. When he asked me out I even asked him if he was married and he said not.

 

We had fun toghether and I started caring about him more and more until he was in my heart.

 

I would not be with a MM again, this time I would be more carefull, still open my heart but... it would have to be with a single man... someday...

 

As for both of them the first one as far as intelegence I am sure he thinks he is taking a step down....

 

for the second one I know he is not into material things like that..

[kymberann]

So maybe it is not so much about "affairing down" as it is being with someone who is available to meet our needs? Reassure vulnerabilities and insecurities? Status and class and position are only secondary to meeting these needs? However that perpetuates the whole discussion of spouse not meeting needs, "so an affair is in order".

I am sure when A began for me I had vulnerabilities and insecurities. I had been single for some time, dated some real losers, dumped them and questioned my worth. MM came along and told me what I wanted to hear. I see that now though, not at the time.

[Romeo Must Die]

The PB&J anology was describing my situation, not yours. BTDT I think that you are sweeter than Koolaid, my buttercup baby. Who knows what MM will ever do or say when he finally gets his hand caught in the cookie jar? Mr. Smartypants was just not clever enough to come up with an answer for that one.

 

Peace

 

[BenThereDunThat]

You crack me up, RMD.

 

I didn't think you were calling me a pb&j, just clairifying my sitch.

[puddleofmud]

I think it is so great that so many are having a discussion without it becoming so "personal" that ideas are being allowed.

I agree that the term of "Affair Down" may be just one aspect or idea of why or what kind of persons have affairs just I do the aspect of "cake-man", etc.

I do agree that it seems to be mostly about some kind of insecurities and subsquently about escapism and not about any particular means or mind-set about what escapes "from" or "to".

Everyone wants and needs to analyze why an affair happened: both BS and OW/M.

It's a very long process for most of us so I am glad we can discuss ideas that gives us some enlightenment about our situations.

[NoIDidn't]

Some do, some don't. But I think we are looking at it wrong. Its not the OW and W being directly compared as it is the MM choosing some one that WILL look up to him and what it is that he appears to bring to the table.

 

In my sitch, the co-worker was a clerk in the mailroom. She has since been promoted. My H is upper mgmt. Maybe it was up in his opinion and in hers as she has a job that pays "cash money". I don't. I have a job that pays in kisses and hugs.

 

She did think she was about to get a social status upgrade though. When things were over, she was rumored to brag about catching the eye of one in "upper mgmt".

 

It as a theory works for some. Not for me. Some MM go after the big dogs (no offense intended) AND they get them too.

 

Its nice to think that a person is beneath you, if you are into that OR its just that plain to see. But, like frannie (we agree on this), I don't pay much attention to status and class. People are just people to me. Some are just a little more fortunate than others.

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't pay much attention to status and class. People are just people to me. Some are just a little more fortunate than others.

 

Very well put! I totally agree, too.

[Porn_Guy]

Being honest and objective I have to say that I know now I was fueling his ego by the very fact that he was more accomplished than me, he could feel superior as far as professional accomplishments around me.

this is standard operating procedure in most workplace affairs. thats why you never date anyone you work with.

[puddleofmud]

It is a correlation that in a common coporate environment most men are upper management and would work closely with staff that are admin which happens to be the positions filled by women.

Sucks on both counts...