How do you bring up the topic of divorce with your MM/MW?

[ratingsguy]

Most of you guys know my story, but to sum up:

 

My MW has been in a loveless marriage for 21 years. She feels very trapped and had finally asked her H for a divorce. After talking it over, the H convinced my MW that they wait 2 years until their daughter turns 18 (the son is already 18). This was many months ago. Their relationship hasn't changed at all since then as he's still cold. So even after being asked for a divorce, he hasn't done anything differently, presumably giving up (or stalling perhaps). They lead seperate lives in the same house. MW admits that he's a good provider, but just cold and unfeeling. MW continues to feel extremely lonely, and has found me. We have connected on deep levels and have fallen for one another.

 

My own personal opinion is that the kids are old enough to be told that their parents are divorcing. That being said, it's not something you want to tell your kids, but they could handle it better than kids 10 years younger. Plus, they are witness on a daily basis of how cold the marriage is, and that can't be great later in life when they try to form meaningful relationships. So I think doing this now is better than waiting the 2 years.

 

So if you were in this situation, how do you suggest that maybe a divorce sooner than later is the best thing to do? Are you blunt or delicate about the topic? What would you do?

[whichwayisup]

After talking it over, the H convinced my MW that they wait 2 years until their daughter turns 18 (the son is already 18). This was many months ago. Their relationship hasn't changed at all since then as he's still cold. So even after being asked for a divorce, he hasn't done anything differently, presumably giving up (or stalling perhaps). They lead seperate lives in the same house

 

Together they decided to stay as a married couple until their daughter turns 18, no matter how unhappy she is, sorry to say this, it's not your place to push her into asking for a divorce. Yes, you are the OM, but you really have no say in how she handles her husband or what's best for their kids.

 

The best thing you can do is stay out of it. Either trust your MW at her word, in 2 years she'll divorce her husband and be with you - Or end it now.

[Can'tGiveUp]

I think you should be blunt about it. Bring it up and let her know what you think and how you feel about it.

 

My MM knows how I feel about staying in an unhappy M. (In my case actions spoke louder than words) We have discussed this topic and agree to disagree. I personally maintain that children are better off with a happy single parent than with two parents that are merely existing in the same house (as I was) or worse, fighting all the time. That being said, I understand his reasoning behind staying, and respect that decision.

 

So, definitely tell her how you feel, but be prepared for her to stay with the plan she has now. I also might caution you to state your position, but then drop it. No need to keep pushing. I am sure she will consider it and may change her mind...but not necessarily right away.

She will remember your point of view though.

[bonehead]

Together they decided to stay as a married couple until their daughter turns 18, no matter how unhappy she is, sorry to say this, it's not your place to push her into asking for a divorce. Yes, you are the OM, but you really have no say in how she handles her husband or what's best for their kids.

 

The best thing you can do is stay out of it. Either trust your MW at her word, in 2 years she'll divorce her husband and be with you - Or end it now.

 

Having been through the " 2 year wait " I will tell you it sucks. But it may be worth it.

 

I dont think its your place to bring it up. If SHE brings it up fine.

[whichwayisup]

The scary thing is, there really is no 100% guarantee that in 2 years she'll divorce her husband either. Alot can change and happen in 2 years as well.

[bonehead]

Been there done that. It was always in the back of my head. Didnt matter what she said to reassure me, it was always a small fear.

 

We were actually supposed to go out on our first " date " tonight. Sinus infection put an end to that one.

 

Then there are the issues that have to be dealt with if she does leave.

[Can'tGiveUp]

I believe it is absolutely your place to bring it up. You are in a R with her and this is something that is bothering you. It's called communication. There is nothing wrong in telling her how you feel.

[frannie]

Most of you guys know my story, but to sum up:

 

My MW has been in a loveless marriage for 21 years. She feels very trapped and had finally asked her H for a divorce. After talking it over, the H convinced my MW that they wait 2 years until their daughter turns 18 (the son is already 18). This was many months ago. Their relationship hasn't changed at all since then as he's still cold. So even after being asked for a divorce, he hasn't done anything differently, presumably giving up (or stalling perhaps). They lead seperate lives in the same house. MW admits that he's a good provider, but just cold and unfeeling. MW continues to feel extremely lonely, and has found me. We have connected on deep levels and have fallen for one another.

 

My own personal opinion is that the kids are old enough to be told that their parents are divorcing. That being said, it's not something you want to tell your kids, but they could handle it better than kids 10 years younger. Plus, they are witness on a daily basis of how cold the marriage is, and that can't be great later in life when they try to form meaningful relationships. So I think doing this now is better than waiting the 2 years.

 

So if you were in this situation, how do you suggest that maybe a divorce sooner than later is the best thing to do? Are you blunt or delicate about the topic? What would you do?

 

My MM and I have had this conversation many times over the two-plus years we've been involved. I've said exactly what I think about it, and he's said he more or less agrees (that staying 'for the children' isn't necessarily best), but there are other issues. One of them being that he'd miss his children so much. At the end of the day: it's his marriage, they're his children, and standing at the sidelines pushing for the end of a marriage isn't a clever (or effective) place to be.

 

In your case, I'd tell her how you feel about it, and leave it at that. The marriage and whether and when it ends is her choice: your choice is to walk away from her, or stay in the situation you're in.

 

I would say to you that it's how we look at the 'facts' provided that can affect whether or not we stick around, whether we keep some kind of faith that the image they're giving of their desires is 'true'. Look at what you've written:

 

"he's a good provider, but just cold and unfeeling."

 

Switch that round:

 

"he's cold and unfeeling, but he's a good provider."

 

To me, they give a different picture. And it might be that it didn't take too much from her husband to 'convince her' to stay with him and keep the stability they have built. After all, she has that AND you to give her all the romantic feelings, and feelings of being wanted, that are missing in her marriage.

 

It might be that no matter how convincing an argument about the rights and wrongs of 'staying for the children', it will just be irrelevant for her.

 

But then, I admit that I'm always biased when it's a MW who won't divorce because of the children... because they're not (usually) the ones doing the moving out, and missing them. (I completely admit that this is somewhat unfair on my part, but it's the way I feel).

[LucreziaBorgia]

There is nothing you can say or do about her divorce. She's going to have to be the one to make the moves here. Understand that it may be a cold, loveless marriage - but its a lifestyle she has lived for more than twenty years and she is used to it. She is used to her husband's 350K salary, her house, her living arrangement, having her kids around, vacations, holidays, an attic/basement full of decades of memories, etc. She may not love her husband at all - but her lifestyle is going to be hardest to let go of. Starting something new after more than twenty years of the 'old' is a terrifying prospect for a woman in her forties. New living arrangements, new 'kid' schedules, new holiday plans, new vacation plans, etc.

 

She is talking about trading in something she knows and has known for years for something that is not such a sure thing. Remember - she's been there. She has seen passion die in a relationship. What if she gives up her life as she knows it, and moves in with you only to have your relationship with her fail? Then what does she do? She'll be an alone divorced woman with nowhere to live who only sees her kids part of the time. That is what she is afraid of. Why she isn't leaving. Why she probably won't leave. Her safe place is 'marriage with love on the side' - and don't expect her to want to leave this situation, which right now works just fine for her. She gets to keep everything in her life intact AND have love/passion in her life as well. Why on earth would she change this if she doesn't have to?

 

Right now, love isn't enough for her to overcome her fears and leave her loveless marriage. Its only enough for her to stay married and cheat on her husband.

 

I think her husband suspects or knows and simply doesn't care - and is merely waiting this one out, knowing that she will not have the strength or courage to actually leave.

[bonehead]

Divorce researcher and psychologist Judith Primavera, PhD, says it is clear that children often fare better emotionally when embattled parents divorce.

 

Primavera is a psychology professor at Fairfield University in Connecticut.

“It is inescapably harmful to grow up in a highly dysfunctional, two-parent home, particularly one where there is any type of domestic violence going on,” she tells WebMD.

 

She adds that parents who do not fight, but, instead deal with unhappy marriages by having little to do with each other may also cause emotional harm to their children.

 

“It isn’t just conflict,” she says. "If mom and dad lead separate lives and the children see that there is no connection, staying married probably isn’t doing them any favors, either. Children learn about relationships by watching their parents.”

[desperate4change]

After talking it over, the H convinced my MW that they wait 2 years until their daughter turns 18 (the son is already 18). This was many months ago. Their relationship hasn't changed at all since then as he's still cold.

 

Ratingsguy, if she had asked for a divorce and the agreement was 2 years, do you really think that her H is still cold to her? Many men (H) in that situation, especially after 21 years, would be trying to do something to fix this problem -- running to the first MC they find or whatever if that's what it takes. If that's what the W wants. I note you wrote this occurred "many months ago" -- is the daughter now 18?

 

I do think it is your right to bring up this discussion, this is your life too that she is leaving in limbo. I'm not saying your going to get the answers that you want to hear. If she keeps moving D Day (wait until they finish college, are out on their own, etc.. ) then you probably should take note of that and run like heck. This really is the oldest trick in the book, using the kids as an excuse. NOT ALL MM/MW use this, I'm just saying it's fairly typical.

[yousaveme]

Divorce researcher and psychologist Judith Primavera, PhD, says it is clear that children often fare better emotionally when embattled parents divorce.

 

Primavera is a psychology professor at Fairfield University in Connecticut.

“It is inescapably harmful to grow up in a highly dysfunctional, two-parent home, particularly one where there is any type of domestic violence going on,” she tells WebMD.

 

She adds that parents who do not fight, but, instead deal with unhappy marriages by having little to do with each other may also cause emotional harm to their children.

 

“It isn’t just conflict,” she says. "If mom and dad lead separate lives and the children see that there is no connection, staying married probably isn’t doing them any favors, either. Children learn about relationships by watching their parents.”

 

God i wish someone would send this to my MM and his W. They both believe that since they dont fight in front of the children and that they basically go around each other but act civil to eachother when around the kids. That they arent doing anything but making them happy for the time being and that they would fulling understand the divorce.

[bonehead]

Children will base their relationships on what they have seen.

[puddleofmud]

It should not be in question that any person in a close relationship: child/parent, siblings, best friends, spouses, BF/GF, etc. should be allowed to discuss personal issues!

As to HOW in this case: well, you are both adults...you may be thinking of a future life together so...you would want to handle things together, right?

My question is "what is your motivation"? It sounds as if you may wish to convince her to leave because you are second guessing your ability to remain in the situation.

If so then you should tell her this.

AND you may want to take a look at your motivation and decide for yourself it is worth it for you to become the "manipulator" about something about which you really have no control.

Once one begins to do that--one does not feel very good about themselves and you already have so much on your plate.

[EnigmaXOXO]

So if you were in this situation, how do you suggest that maybe a divorce sooner than later is the best thing to do? Are you blunt or delicate about the topic? What would you do?

 

Okay … I'm trying to stretch my imagination here. But since I've never actually been in this situation it is purely hypothetical for me.

 

The first thing I would want to ask my friend is:

 

"What do you need from your husband in order for him to convince you to stay?" …

"And what more would you need from me in order to convince you to leave??"

 

With any luck, it might inspire her to do some real soul-searching to find her own answers. It could be that she's so conflicted right now that she hasn't even taken the time to figure out what she's really looking for. (A nasty Mid-life crisis tends to do that to some people … it's almost like going through adolescence all over again. Complete with trying to reinvent yourself in an attempt figure out just who the h*ll you are. )

 

Perhaps she is in such a funk that she hasn't even considered sitting her husband down for a real heart-to-heart and expressing what she needs from him in order to continue in their marriage. And my concern would be that as long as I was playing the part of her therapist, she would continue to confide her troubles in me rather than addressing them with her husband and family. To me … that wouldn't be really fair on my part since I have an invested interest in the outcome and (unlike a trained councilor) I might be tempted to persuade her to do what's best for me rather than what's best for her.

 

IF I could somehow find the courage to act selflessly in her behalf … I would probably suggest that we stop seeing each other for a while and give her the opportunity she needs (without any distractions) to figure out exactly what she wants to do with the rest of her life. Ideally, the best suggestion would be that she go talk to a professional councilor who might help give her some clarity and help the family to deal with the difficult transition if/when she comes to a place where she can finally make that decision.

 

Then … I'd turn off the phone, park myself in front of the big screen with a stack of DVDs, a gallon of Haagen-Dazs, a bottle of wine, a carton of smokes … and have a damn good three-day cry.

[puddleofmud]

WHAT SHE SAID!!!

 

Okay … I'm trying to stretch my imagination here. But since I've never actually been in this situation it is purely hypothetical for me.

 

The first thing I would want to ask my friend is:

 

"What do you need from your husband in order for him to convince you to stay?" …

"And what more would you need from me in order to convince you to leave??"

 

With any luck, it might inspire her to do some real soul-searching to find her own answers. It could be that she's so conflicted right now that she hasn't even taken the time to figure out what she's really looking for. (A nasty Mid-life crisis tends to do that to some people … it's almost like going through adolescence all over again. Complete with trying to reinvent yourself in an attempt figure out just who the h*ll you are. )

 

Perhaps she is in such a funk that she hasn't even considered sitting her husband down for a real heart-to-heart and expressing what she needs from him in order to continue in their marriage. And my concern would be that as long as I was playing the part of her therapist, she would continue to confide her troubles in me rather than addressing them with her husband and family. To me … that wouldn't be really fair on my part since I have an invested interest in the outcome and (unlike a trained councilor) I might be tempted to persuade her to do what's best for me rather than what's best for her.

 

IF I could somehow find the courage to act selflessly in her behalf … I would probably suggest that we stop seeing each other for a while and give her the opportunity she needs (without any distractions) to figure out exactly what she wants to do with the rest of her life. Ideally, the best suggestion would be that she go talk to a professional councilor who might help give her some clarity and help the family to deal with the difficult transition if/when she comes to a place where she can finally make that decision.

 

Then … I'd turn off the phone, park myself in front of the big screen with a stack of DVDs, a gallon of Haagen-Dazs, a bottle of wine, a carton of smokes … and have a damn good three-day cry.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Um...don't know about you guys, but I need more than one bottle of wine for a three day cry.....

[bonehead]

Then … I'd turn off the phone, park myself in front of the big screen with a stack of DVDs, a gallon of Haagen-Dazs, a bottle of wine, a carton of smokes … and have a damn good three-day cry

Bottle? How big a bottle we talkin here????

[bonehead]

When I said I didnt think it was your place?

 

Well after alot of thought and talking with my MW/FMW ( what ever she is ) and reading here I have changed my. Do talk to her about it, but be prepared.

[oyster]

Okay … I'm trying to stretch my imagination here. But since I've never actually been in this situation it is purely hypothetical for me.

 

The first thing I would want to ask my friend is:

 

"What do you need from your husband in order for him to convince you to stay?" …

"And what more would you need from me in order to convince you to leave??"

 

With any luck, it might inspire her to do some real soul-searching to find her own answers. It could be that she's so conflicted right now that she hasn't even taken the time to figure out what she's really looking for. (A nasty Mid-life crisis tends to do that to some people … it's almost like going through adolescence all over again. Complete with trying to reinvent yourself in an attempt figure out just who the h*ll you are. )

 

Perhaps she is in such a funk that she hasn't even considered sitting her husband down for a real heart-to-heart and expressing what she needs from him in order to continue in their marriage. And my concern would be that as long as I was playing the part of her therapist, she would continue to confide her troubles in me rather than addressing them with her husband and family. To me … that wouldn't be really fair on my part since I have an invested interest in the outcome and (unlike a trained councilor) I might be tempted to persuade her to do what's best for me rather than what's best for her.

 

IF I could somehow find the courage to act selflessly in her behalf … I would probably suggest that we stop seeing each other for a while and give her the opportunity she needs (without any distractions) to figure out exactly what she wants to do with the rest of her life. Ideally, the best suggestion would be that she go talk to a professional councilor who might help give her some clarity and help the family to deal with the difficult transition if/when she comes to a place where she can finally make that decision.

 

Then … I'd turn off the phone, park myself in front of the big screen with a stack of DVDs, a gallon of Haagen-Dazs, a bottle of wine, a carton of smokes … and have a damn good three-day cry.

 

this has to be the post of the year. Moderators, please sticky.

 

you hit in right on the money

 

The first thing I would want to ask my friend is:

 

"What do you need from your husband in order for him to convince you to stay?" …

"And what more would you need from me in order to convince you to leave??"

 

I am in a similar situation as the ratingguy, minus the kid package.

 

I told her to talk to her hubby about how she feels and where she wants to go for the remaining of her life.

 

I chose NOT to sway her or provide therapy. I keep reminder her if she ends her marriage it is for her own reason and not because of me, the OM.

 

Why? If I am selfish and convince her to leave, down the road I am fearing she might regret her decision and try to reconnect with her ex-hubby.

[ratingsguy]

Ratingsguy, if she had asked for a divorce and the agreement was 2 years, do you really think that her H is still cold to her? Many men (H) in that situation, especially after 21 years, would be trying to do something to fix this problem -- running to the first MC they find or whatever if that's what it takes.

 

That isn't the case here. According to the MW, the situation hasn't changed one iota. Even after being told that MW wanted a divorce, the H hasn't done anything different (except get her flowers on their anniversary... something he had never done before).

 

I tend to agree with Lucrezia that the H either knows or suspects and doesn't care. I get the impression from talking to my MW, that the H is more interested in the image he presents to family and friends and doesn't care if that means not making his wife happy.

 

As for the lifestyle issue, she has said repeatedly that money matters little to her at this stage in her life. She detests some of the rich snobs that live in her neighborhood. Plus, like I said, she does pretty well on her own, and her family is fairly wealthy as well. So I believe her when she says that.

 

Those are really good questions Enigma! I think I know the answers to them, but it never hurts to ask. In fact, I think it will be very helpful to hear what she has to say. We've talked about this stuff at length, but I've never came out and directly answered those questions. To address your other point, she actually was in therapy for a while... and to my shock, the therapist actually ENCOURAGED my MW to see me. Can you believe that? Maybe because she had such glowing things to say about me. Unfortunately, this is also the same therapist who fell asleep on her during one of their sessions! Another story entirely, but suffice to stay she hasn't gone back since!

 

I'm not going to push the issue on divorce, but I would like to mention to her how I feel about it. I think it's good that she gets on with her life now, not later. Why should her and I live in secret? Why should she be forced to feel miserable being married to her H? I plan to bring it up next time were at her lake house for the weekend... wish me luck!