Jane Doe Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 I don't know if we're allowed to post links to other sites or not so I won't, but I wanted to share something with you all. I came across a website that's an MSN group that talks about people (mainly men) with Narcississtic Personality Disorder. The site has tons of information and so much of what I read sounds exactly like most of the MM everyone speaks of. There's certainly a common theme among the stories here and most everyone has heard the exact same line from their MM as what people post about here. I'm convinced there's a secret book out there they've all memorized their lines from. I'm no doctor and certainly not trained to diagnose mental/personality disorders but I encourage all of you to google this site (or PM me and I'll give you the link) and see what it has to say. You could very well be dealing with someone who has a serious disorder. It certainly gives you something to think about and some tips in dealing with people who behave in such manipulative ways.
frannie Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 I agree with this. A lot of the behaviour exhibited by MM who are causing a lot of what looks to me like unnecessary and extreme grief for OW seems consistent with NPD. I think it's worth OW looking at the signs of this disorder to see if their MM fits.
Author Jane Doe Posted December 1, 2006 Author Posted December 1, 2006 Thanks, Frannie. I hope they do. It puts a lot of pieces together. One thing I read on the site is how vitally important no contact is if you truly want to break things off and be healthy.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 I think it's ok to post a link that relates to the topic of discussion because on the advanced reply if gives the option to insert a link. I for one would very much appreciate it. My H is classic NPD. I've worked psyc enough to spot these types of PD's with my eyes closed! I would be very interested to know of anyother BS's who live with a narcissist. This is why I have such an issue with the reality thing Frannie. Living in someone elses reality when what you know to be true is otherwise takes a major toll on your sanity. This is true for ALL family, and friends which is why I don't believe in sugar coating it for the kids. I've posted it elsewhere before but and incredible book on the subject and an easy quick read is "Why Is It Always About You" by Sandy Hotchkiss. Explains the traits and the etiology behind it quite well.
frannie Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 I think it's ok to post a link that relates to the topic of discussion because on the advanced reply if gives the option to insert a link. I for one would very much appreciate it. The best (at least best-known) site on NPD online is one which has an advert for a book on it by a well-known author surname Vaknin. Posting a link to a 'commercial site' is against LS policy, but you can find it easily using a 'popular search engine' if you know what I mean.
blind_otter Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 Look, everyone has "elements" of certain PDs in them. I actually have a personality disorder. It is difficult to diagnose and requires a lifetime of therapy in order to make minimal progress at getting better. So if you want to armchair diagnose someone with a personality disorder, you should also consider getting as far away from them as possible because untreated, those with NPD can and will destroy the lives of everyone around them. Just like any personality disorder.
frannie Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 This is why I have such an issue with the reality thing Frannie. Living in someone elses reality when what you know to be true is otherwise takes a major toll on your sanity. This is true for ALL family, and friends which is why I don't believe in sugar coating it for the kids. I've posted it elsewhere before but and incredible book on the subject and an easy quick read is "Why Is It Always About You" by Sandy Hotchkiss. Explains the traits and the etiology behind it quite well. Aha on the 'living in someone else's reality' and so on. I have been involved with at least one person in the past who I would consider to have these traits. And yes, it can be devastating to those involved with them. Regarding telling the kids, you know, they're the MM's children and I still don't see a reason for them to know about his infidelity, no matter what his psychological issues are (or aren't - we're not professionals, just people involved with them, and we may be very wrong in these pop diagnoses). It's just something I don't think children need to know about.
frannie Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 Look, everyone has "elements" of certain PDs in them. I actually have a personality disorder. It is difficult to diagnose and requires a lifetime of therapy in order to make minimal progress at getting better. So if you want to armchair diagnose someone with a personality disorder, you should also consider getting as far away from them as possible because untreated, those with NPD can and will destroy the lives of everyone around them. Just like any personality disorder. I agree. I do however think NPD is particularly relevant in the case of people having affairs... the whole 'narcissistic supply' thing is perfect when the man can claim he can't really get involved with you because of a host of seemingly credible factors. Anyway, it's worth a read because it might ring some bells and help with clarity in what looks like a mad situation.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 I'm reposting... tell me when you see YOUR own child trying to make sense of something... that she deserve to know what she is dealing with so that she can actually deal with it. Having someone make a decision to hurt you is one thing but it takes on a different life when they hurt your/their child. Asking everyone to call it what it is not behooves only the betrayERs. Reread please and tell me what SHE needs to know. The family unit crumbles the kids see their life changing but can't put a finger on it. He could have chosen to leave, THAT would have been in the best interest of the kids as far as the situation was concerned but he's staying for the kids so that he can watch their confusion. I have a teenager and during the time after D, supposed reconcilliation, D, ect.. I was cleaning and found peices of paper with drug rehab info on it as well as pamplets from resources in our comunity. I thought on top of everthing now my daughter was dealing with a drug problem. I woke her up one morning and sat on her bed shaking and said to her, honey, I love you, I'm here for you and I can help you through anything, I'm sorry I've been a wreck there have just been some things happen that were out of my controll. She said, I hate to tell you this mom, but I think dad is doing drugs. She pulls out from under her bed more information and procedes to explain his actions. She said I've called these places, I asked her what she said to them... her reply crushed me.... she said I told them I need to find out how I can help my dad. AWWW GEEEE.... That is love? Staying for the kids? Yeah, right! You can't fix him, honey, noone can. Here a 16 year old wants to make things right. Wants to help her family by fixing her dad. Takes it on her OWN to figure out what is going on and what she can do to fix it. You believe that she does not deserve reality. Who besides him does that behoove? She is in tears when she breaks it to her mom that "something" is wrong with Dad. What did hiding the truth to protect her accomplish? I should have been upfront from the begining. I don't want to hurt her dad, I want for her to be able to work through the issues that HE created for her.
noforgiveness Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 ifwisheswerehorses that is so sad to me. Of course the kids know something is wrong with daddy. The kids can see daddy is not home as early as he use to be. They can see he is different, introverted or something. Kids know and kids deserve to know the truth. I especially feel that's true with an affair. If it's found by me that my husbands affair was physical he is out the door. There will be no more discussion. More for the lies than the physical because i feel he has had more than enough opportunity to be fully honest with me. The betrayal of lying AFTER we are so beautifully rebuilding would kill me. I would not attempt to sheild my kids from this. They would need to understand what possibly could have happened to make their mom hate their daddy enough to never allow him home again. You can't turn their lives upside down and throw daddy out without an explanation and just saying we fell out of love would not work. I would also be protecting myself from my kids anger at getting rid of dad by telling the truth. Ifwisheswerehorses did you then tell your daughter the truth and tell her that daddy was hiding a woman and not drugs? How did she react to that? I hate to say it but drug use probably would have been easier for her to handle than the betrayal of mommy with another woman. At least with drug use she would try to get him help. Did she block dad out of her life after?
IfWishesWereHorses Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 Yes, I told, actually at the time I had filed for divorce but had told NOONE as per my lawyer (alot at stake in my case). I told her alot, and that the mood swings and volitile responses were about that. I tried to explain his actions and did not bash him. She dealt with it like a teenager I guess, didn't see alot of her. When I agreed to drop the procedings to give it another chance (ok, that's another long story - but suffice to say- I agreed to myself to live with it for the time being) she swore she would leave if I didn't go through with the D. I have given her the book that I mentioned above and FORCED her to read it. She didn't want to -"didn't care". After reading it she thanked me and is dealing with him much better. There is no more frustration over day to day reality situations just a knowing look to me and a nod of the head. There was a MAJOR blow up between them because she forgot her cell phone and he needed to get intouch with her. HE broke things (the cell phone being one) and scared her to death. The next night she has a blowout on a highway and no cell walked a mile in the dark on a highway to a neighborhood to use the phone. HE blamed her. And some OW loves this man! I remember when he was her hero! He still is in his son's eyes, and I will hate him even more the day his bubble gets busted. OW talk about WH's staying for the kids......they have no idea...
frannie Posted December 2, 2006 Posted December 2, 2006 I'm reposting... tell me when you see YOUR own child trying to make sense of something... that she deserve to know what she is dealing with so that she can actually deal with it. ... What did hiding the truth to protect her accomplish? I should have been upfront from the begining. I don't want to hurt her dad, I want for her to be able to work through the issues that HE created for her. Not sure if this is meant for me..? In the other thread ('staying for the kids' was it?) I was talking about there's no reason for the children to know about their father's infidelity. But I was talking about the situation after he has left, i.e. the marriage is over, and there's no odd, inexplicable behaviour between spouses. They are living separately, etc.
Author Jane Doe Posted December 2, 2006 Author Posted December 2, 2006 I encourage each of you to read this http://samvak.tripod.com/faq6.html and see if you can see you and/or your married man in it.
pureinheart Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 Thank you so much Jane for this web site....extremely informative and answered a whole lot of questions...
Author Jane Doe Posted December 3, 2006 Author Posted December 3, 2006 You're welcome. It's an eye opener for sure!
alphamale Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 I think it's worth OW looking at the signs of this disorder to see if their MM fits. why? I think OW should be more introspective and see why they are with MM. It is always the woman who decides which man she wants to be with.
pureinheart Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 Once again thanks Jane....reading more information on this site,,,,OMG I am absolutely floored... I was right, one day at work, and don't remember what provoked it, I got really mad and screamed at him saying, "what kind of sick game are you and your wife playing with me". Was unable to understand the fact that she stayed with him after the discovery of countless A. Upon first entering into this I thought I could handle it, no big deal, quite harmless, without realizing it there was a dependancy created for him. I felt I needed him for many reasons. We did everything together at work and sometimes after work. If I left to go to a different area/building he would find me, or look for me all day if need be. In the beginning I thought it was just an attachment I had for him, then realizing this was different and thought it was love....towards the end realizing it was a prison. The delusion and confusion I was in was incredible. With him being M I didn't feel I had many rights and didn't want to disrespect him by making "unreasonable" demands...as he would say, "you know where I'm at" (I really should have heard those words). At the same time he would keep me in a state of "wondering" by saying, " I don't know when it will be...tomorrow, 1 yr from now, 3 yrs from now, 10 yrs from now....and if your not availble, Ill just waite for you". The prison became more and more apparent as I would try to break away and fail, would always fall for the crap because he would chase mercilessly by saying, "I'll never let you go". The result of all of this....my reputation at work was completely ruined, they did have some mercy though because they saw right through him...also they knew me longer and for some reason really liked me, but hated him. I lost all sense of self-worth, motivation, was depressed more than not, lost my sence of identity and morality and many more things that I am working through. Was also right on this one, as I have been stating in this forum....there is a hold that they do have on us. For a long time I hated most of the people that I worked with because of what they did to me....they did do some things that were not right, although that is not my problem....my issues are me and what I have done.... A couple of days ago wrote my manager and his assistant, telling them I was sorry for all of the problems I caused them. The prison door is open now and I am out, slamming the door shut on my past...I pictured this scene in my mind, and what I saw is the MM and his W still in that prison while I was slamming the door shut.
frannie Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 I encourage each of you to read this http://samvak.tripod.com/faq6.html and see if you can see you and/or your married man in it. Yes, that's the one I was suggesting.
frannie Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 why? I think OW should be more introspective and see why they are with MM. It is always the woman who decides which man she wants to be with. Because if you suspect a man you're involved with of being a Narcissist, a whole lot of odd behaviour becomes clear, and your optimism that 'it will all be ok if only...' evaporates really quickly. The reasons you've been feeling like you're going crazy make sense, clarity returns, and you feel your stomach turn when you realise the game you've been involved in. You might feel a residual need to 'rescue' them... but the overwhelming feeling is a desire to distance yourself from such behaviour. That makes it a whole lot easier to close the door. (yes, I am talking from personal experience).
alphamale Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 Because if you suspect a man you're involved with of being a Narcissist, a whole lot of odd behaviour becomes clear, and your optimism that 'it will all be ok if only...' evaporates really quickly. The reasons you've been feeling like you're going crazy make sense, clarity returns, and you feel your stomach turn when you realise the game you've been involved in. but maybe OW is attracted to men with NPD.
blind_otter Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 but maybe OW is attracted to men with NPD. word. It's a chicken-egg question. IMO it's just another method to seek external validity, this armchair diagnosing of other people with no experience treating any type of pathological mental illness.
Author Jane Doe Posted December 3, 2006 Author Posted December 3, 2006 Blind Otter, I don't think anyone here is doing any armchair diagnosing. In the second paragraph of my original post I stated that I'm no doctor and not trying to diagnose anyone. It was merely something for people to think about. Should Love Shack restrict the sexual and reproductive health section of the board to only licensed medical doctors? That's what this whole board is for -- to share ideas and help each other. This thread is nothing more than food for thought.
alphamale Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 Should Love Shack restrict the sexual and reproductive health section of the board to only licensed medical doctors? . I don't think they would have the time or inclination for that...
blind_otter Posted December 3, 2006 Posted December 3, 2006 Blind Otter, I don't think anyone here is doing any armchair diagnosing. In the second paragraph of my original post I stated that I'm no doctor and not trying to diagnose anyone. It was merely something for people to think about. Should Love Shack restrict the sexual and reproductive health section of the board to only licensed medical doctors? That's what this whole board is for -- to share ideas and help each other. This thread is nothing more than food for thought. It is armchair diagnosing. It is damaging to the individual who engages in this behavior, as much as to the individual being "diagnosed". And it only contributes to the obsession. We would, all of us, be better served focusing on ourselves and our own mental health and leaving other people's mental issues to themselves. Maybe the world would be a better, less judgmental place. I'm running away now. The OW forums scare me.
Author Jane Doe Posted December 4, 2006 Author Posted December 4, 2006 It is damaging to the individual who engages in this behavior, as much as to the individual being "diagnosed". And it only contributes to the obsession. We would, all of us, be better served focusing on ourselves and our own mental health and leaving other people's mental issues to themselves. Maybe the world would be a better, less judgmental place. Uhhh, didn't you just do the same thing you accused me and others of doing? Every time you (meaning any of us) offer up advice/solutions we're armchair diagnosing. For a topic you think is so wrong you sure are spending a lot of time in it.
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