OW vs. BW

[elmejor]

I have a man in my bed, where's yours?

 

So, why would you prefer to be bantering with a stranger on a message board, than to be doing anything else right at the moment....As for your question...I don't share the details of my life with just anyone...it's none of your business. But I will say this, we "morally bankrupt" types make a practice of getting what we want when we want it. I never want for anything, nor anyone. To put it in language you can comprehend, when I'm hungry for a meaty bone, it's always available to me. Sometimes I get real hungry, so I have TWO. Wuff wuff! Goodnight, and sweet dreams to you!

[GirlFromOz]

So, why would you prefer to be bantering with a stranger on a message board, than to be doing anything else right at the moment....As for your question...I don't share the details of my life with just anyone...it's none of your business. But I will say this, we "morally bankrupt" types make a practice of getting what we want when we want it. I never want for anything, nor anyone. To put it in language you can comprehend, when I'm hungry for a meaty bone, it's always available to me. Sometimes I get real hungry, so I have TWO. Wuff wuff! Goodnight, and sweet dreams to you!

 

The stereotype is alive & well! Thank you Elmejor. I didn't know whether looking at this forum was going to make me feel better or worse. You have most definately made me feel better! Funny how the meaty bone won't commit 100% but, then again, who would when all you are concerned about is yourself!

[pureinheart]

Tell the truth TBF....table scraps, and most of them will say what they think you want to hear....it disgusts me now, but the MM had me believing I had the best part of him, and that pure and simple was my own selfishness and arrogance....this is what I really got....

 

Total demoralization....as the OW, the people around me hated what I was doing. I know what they really think because a friend of mine targeted MM and they totally disrespected her, they all wanted to like her, but were unable to after awhile.

 

In my case, because they knew I didn't target MM, there was much more compassion....they all saw what he was and were disappointed in me for falling for it....my supervisor even took me into his office and asked where the old me had gone.

 

Other MM think that if you will go with him, you will go with them too...this is another wonderful aspect ....and the singles don't want anything to do with you.

 

My kids and grandkids got short changed also....when I should have been pulling my life together, attracting good men that would tend to their needs, I gave them a half a**d, sorry excuse for a man.

 

In the future, if a man doesn't want to spoil my kids and grandkids, then they don't want me....package deal period....whoever I bring in, they have to deal with also, grown or not, doesn't matter. If he has kids and grandkids I would spoil them.

[Trialbyfire]

pih, keep thinking that way. You're worth far more than the one piece of clearly identifiable trailer trash I see evident in this thread.

 

The interesting part of this is seeing people revealing themselves as they are. Regardless of what they posted previously, the reality is, some are remorseless bottom feeders. If any cake eating MM are reading this, you know who to PM if you need someone who you wouldn't want to take home to meet mama, lol. Not exactly trophy wife material...

[Adunaphel]

This is a good point & one that I had to think quite hard about, but it still doesn't sit with me. No partner in a marriage should go looking elsewhere. there are other options. 1.Fix the marriage or 2. If you truly, truly believe that it is beyong fixing, then leave, before you hook up with someone else. The third option of having an affair just wouldn't exist if both the MM & the potential OW didn't allow it to.

 

Agreed.

 

So, the MM should not go looking for an OW in the first place, hence there wouldn't be rejections. He should show some character instead. BUT there also shouldn't be women who are willing to be other women. That way, it wouldn't even be an option - he wouldn't even think about the possibility of it. Please note that I am not trying to piss OW off by this comment.

I know you are not!

 

Would you believe me if I said that there were no other women willing to have an affair with someone who is in a relationship I would have not gotten into an affair myself?

 

It's not a "if other people do it why should not I?" line of thought, but a "I am very attracted to this person and he would cheat/is cheating on his W anyway" one.

This will probably sound very screwed up, but I am sure I'd never have gotten into an affair with someone who has never cheated on his partner before. I am pretty sure that there are other OW that feel the same.

 

 

It is simply how I feel & I know that many of you won't agree with me, but I do want to emphasize that even though I do not & will not ever agree with the actions of any OW, I do acknowledge that the OW (uinless married herself) has never made any vows to anyone & therefore, if you look at the basics (ie without looking at morals etc) than the OW does not owe the BS & her children anything - it is the MM who has made the promises etc & therefore, he is the main person to blame for this situation. I feel I'm not explaining myself as well as I would like to on this point but hopefully it makes sense!

 

It does make perfect sense.

 

OW is to blame too - and I am quite disgusted of *anyone* who uses the "I don't owe him/her anything" to justify any kind of bad behaviour.

 

I just think that those BS's who shift the majority of the blame on the OW (with a few exceptions) are doing themselves no good.

 

I was never cheated on (not that I am aware of) but my ex bf had this habit of crossing lines with female friends and found it a perfectly natural thing to do. I used to get mad more at my ex bf's slutty female friends than at my bf - I remember having posted on here a number of thread complaining about how slutty some women could be.

 

If I had realized that the person to blame most was my bf, who was the one in a relationship with me, acting like an ******* and playing the innocent victim of gf from hell, I would have gotten out of that relationship much sooner and saved a couple of precious years of my life.

 

I am not saying that all wandering Hs should be classified as class A *******s, but that betrayed spouses will not be able to see thiongs clearly, and decide what is better to do for them, until they realize that their H is the one to blame most.

 

Most OW are far from innocent. But in many cases, to focus on them and direct most of the anger at them, will do no good to the BS.

 

Just to state the obvious, BS have every right to be mad at OW imo. Only, again, they should keep in mind what the real problem is.

[Trialbyfire]

If I had realized that the person to blame most was my bf, who was the one in a relationship with me, acting like an ******* and playing the innocent victim of gf from hell, I would have gotten out of that relationship much sooner and saved a couple of precious years of my life.

 

I am not saying that all wandering Hs should be classified as class A *******s, but that betrayed spouses will not be able to see thiongs clearly, and decide what is better to do for them, until they realize that their H is the one to blame most.

 

Most OW are far from innocent. But in many cases, to focus on them and direct most of the anger at them, will do no good to the BS.

 

Just to state the obvious, BS have every right to be mad at OW imo. Only, again, they should keep in mind what the real problem is.

I'll agree that it's both who have culpability. I find that my anger tends to be directed towards the remorseless ones, the ones that really don't care about how much collateral damage they cause or attempt to justify their actions from a "I'm the centre of the universe" perspective.

 

Keep in mind that I can't stand selfish people on average, nvm in this explosive situation. I usually try to avoid them like the plague that they are.

[pureinheart]

Most BW will not agree that being OW is healthy. So far, being hypersensitive myself, would be the first to feel "attacked" and have not at all....they have stated facts that are invaluable to those of us who are trying to get out or already are. Actually what I have read, they are the ones being attacked and then give back what is given.

 

The BW's have spent time responding to this forum and they know nothing except for what is typed by OW and FOW....some of the posts are heart-wrenching stories of total abuse by MM, and the support and compassion for the OW by BW's is incredible. In the cases of these types of posts all sides are telling the OWOM to run for her/his life.

 

The posts that state in the beginning that they are ok with MM, the BW's don't respond at all, at least what I have read.

[frannie]

Sure they are. But what they aren't "justified" in is choosing deceit over honesty. Justifying an action and rationalizing one are two different things. When we "rationalize" we're only fooling ourselves. We're twisting the data in order to suit our own purposes.

 

I've never said there was any justification for infidelity.

 

That doesn't mean that it's not understandable, and likely to happen.

[Ladyjane14]

I've never said there was any justification for infidelity.

 

That doesn't mean that it's not understandable, and likely to happen.

 

That's true too... but it doesn't have to happen to YOU.

 

This is the crux of it... the reason why non-OWs keep coming in here and posting to y'all. It's because we SEE the rationalizations, and we want to point them out so that you have all the data before you. The choices are still YOURS in the end.

 

Look.... I've met married men who have cheated or who are living in unhappy domestic arrangements. I've felt the same sympathy for them that the OW feels. It seems like an impossible conundrum for them at times, because in some cases there really isn't a thing the guy can do but pick up and leave. It's a sad situation, and in my youth I also fell victim to... errmmm... sympathetic behavior.

 

But as hard as that is to watch... it's his problem to work out. It's not right to bring another person into that kind of mess. It's not right to ask a woman, who might be normally a very honest person, to 'aid and abet' a tapestry of deceit... to befriend the lies he'll tell to his wife and to his children.

 

As I said, there are people who won't lose any sleep over that. But are YOU one of them?

Because if you're not, it damages you at an elemental level. It demeans you. It evolves you into a person who behaves in a way that is not supportive of who you meant to be as dictated by your own inner voice. You can't look at yourself in the same way again.

 

This is very human, that's true. But it doesn't mean that we accept less of ourselves than we KNOW we're capable of. We strive for more, in order to fulfill our inner yearning to be the best that we can be. THAT is also human.

 

I can't help it if I'm a conscientious person. I was born and raised that way. I remember every mean thing I've said, and every bad thing I've done. Since that's who I am... I have to protect my self-worth by doing 'the right thing' as often as possible, because a person with principles will KNOW that they traded upon them if they fail to uphold them. I can't fulfill myself if I know I did less.

 

Sometimes temptation can be a REAL BIG ANIMAL. Sometimes, we want something soooo badly we'll sign off on almost anything to have it. But in the end, it's all an illusion if you can't retain the best parts of yourself when you get it.

 

I don't know you Frannie. None of that might apply to you. But if YOU are a person who respects truth and abhors lies, you can't abet another person's deceit without paying the penalty. And the cost is higher than you might think. It's paid by your heart, and it's paid by your soul.

 

In the end... romantic relationships, married or unmarried, will come and go. But ALWAYS, we take ourselves with us. There are times in life, even when our relationships are GOOD... that it's not enough to sustain happiness. We have to each be comfortable in our own skins in order to attain the tranquility we need to recognize joy.

 

So... if you're uncomfortable with what you're doing, be true to yourself first. That's all I'm saying.

[yousaveme]

When you say be true to myself that is also my struggle. I love him and he also feels the same.

[frannie]

That's true too... but it doesn't have to happen to YOU.

 

This is the crux of it... the reason why non-OWs keep coming in here and posting to y'all. It's because we SEE the rationalizations, and we want to point them out so that you have all the data before you. The choices are still YOURS in the end.

 

Look.... I've met married men who have cheated or who are living in unhappy domestic arrangements. I've felt the same sympathy for them that the OW feels. It seems like an impossible conundrum for them at times, because in some cases there really isn't a thing the guy can do but pick up and leave. It's a sad situation, and in my youth I also fell victim to... errmmm... sympathetic behavior.

 

But as hard as that is to watch... it's his problem to work out. It's not right to bring another person into that kind of mess. It's not right to ask a woman, who might be normally a very honest person, to 'aid and abet' a tapestry of deceit... to befriend the lies he'll tell to his wife and to his children.

 

As I said, there are people who won't lose any sleep over that. But are YOU one of them?

Because if you're not, it damages you at an elemental level. It demeans you. It evolves you into a person who behaves in a way that is not supportive of who you meant to be as dictated by your own inner voice. You can't look at yourself in the same way again.

 

This is very human, that's true. But it doesn't mean that we accept less of ourselves than we KNOW we're capable of. We strive for more, in order to fulfill our inner yearning to be the best that we can be. THAT is also human.

 

I can't help it if I'm a conscientious person. I was born and raised that way. I remember every mean thing I've said, and every bad thing I've done. Since that's who I am... I have to protect my self-worth by doing 'the right thing' as often as possible, because a person with principles will KNOW that they traded upon them if they fail to uphold them. I can't fulfill myself if I know I did less.

 

Sometimes temptation can be a REAL BIG ANIMAL. Sometimes, we want something soooo badly we'll sign off on almost anything to have it. But in the end, it's all an illusion if you can't retain the best parts of yourself when you get it.

 

I don't know you Frannie. None of that might apply to you. But if YOU are a person who respects truth and abhors lies, you can't abet another person's deceit without paying the penalty. And the cost is higher than you might think. It's paid by your heart, and it's paid by your soul.

 

In the end... romantic relationships, married or unmarried, will come and go. But ALWAYS, we take ourselves with us. There are times in life, even when our relationships are GOOD... that it's not enough to sustain happiness. We have to each be comfortable in our own skins in order to attain the tranquility we need to recognize joy.

 

So... if you're uncomfortable with what you're doing, be true to yourself first. That's all I'm saying.

 

Yes, the choice is mine, whether I stay in the affair or not.

 

I wouldn't be comfortable (I don't think) continuing this indefinitely... and yet, a part of me would. Because when I look at what we're planning to do early next year (his leaving), it scares me. It's a big unknown... and it may not work out, and my worry is that if it doesn't work out, ultimately, between us, that I'll feel a lot of guilt for being a part of disturbing the fairly stable lives his children have got right now.

 

It's not so cut and dried as 'have an affair: not have an affair: leave a marriage'. I don't believe there are simple things you can do and everything is fine for everyone. Other people may see things in black and white, but I don't. And that comes back to: it's basically my business the choices I make. I'm not breaking any laws. End of conversation.

 

But let me clear something up. I'm not in a relationship with MM because I feel sorry for him. What gave you that impression? I'm not seeing him so he can feel better about his life. I see him because we enjoy each other's company and it's something I miss when he's not around. I spend time with him because I enjoy it... what other reason would there be?

 

I'm not 100% sure that his leaving his marriage is the right thing for him or his children, or me, come to that. But going on the way we are is also difficult, and might end up with everything being found out... and that would be FAR worse. Plus, there are things about being an OW which are awkward, like not being able to introduce him to my family and friends because in the long term (if we DO get together), it might well come out about the affair and his children would end up knowing.

 

All this is of course to do with me, and what I want, and what I'm comfortable with in terms of 'am I doing a bad thing here?'. As far as my options go at the moment, staying put and seeing what he does early next year seems the most sensible option.

 

I don't really want to walk away from the situation, because as I say, I enjoy being with him. But I'm not 'addicted' to him. It's a perfectly everyday 'being in love' and wanting to spend time with someone situation. And if it works out that we can't find a way to be together that works, then it will end. Without undue drama.

 

And without me feeling half as bad as I'm supposed to feel..?

[frannie]

And just to add, that my first concern is myself AND what's the best thing to do for his children, and then, to an extent, MM (though it's his job to take care of himself). NOT his wife.

 

If anyone owes his wife an explanation, or responsibility, it's him. He's the one who made the promises, and he's the one who has stayed married this long while seeing someone else. And I think that she herself should be taking a closer look at her relationship and trying to see where it's going. Because if she doesn't know it's gone to H in a handbasket then I don't know where she's been looking.

 

No, none of that excuses anything that MM or I have done. But I'm talking about taking responsibility for one's own life here. We all have to do it. It's no use looking in askance and pointing the finger after the events. That goes for all people involved when a M breaks down.

 

After all, what if MM took solace in fishing... are you going to blame the fish for what happened if he decides he no longer wants to stay married? An OW is sometimes a convenient scapegoat.

[Ladyjane14]

.....there are things about being an OW which are awkward, like not being able to introduce him to my family and friends because in the long term (if we DO get together), it might well come out about the affair and his children would end up knowing.

 

I think maybe you might have missed my point, Frannie.

 

For some people, it's more than "awkward". It's a crisis of conscience. For somebody like that.. the idea that friends and family will eventually find out, is less troubling than the fact that they, themselves, KNOW they took part in abetting the lies.

 

For folks like that, there's an additional painful element of the affair as they deal with the inner trauma of having taken action outside their personal belief system.

 

This doesn't seem to be your particular struggle. In which case, my previous post won't apply to you directly.

 

If it troubled you in any way that I used your specific screen-name... I do apologize.

It wasn't my intent to single you out. My intent was to elaborate on an earlier thought.

[NoIDidn't]

After all, what if MM took solace in fishing... are you going to blame the fish for what happened if he decides he no longer wants to stay married? An OW is sometimes a convenient scapegoat.

 

Of course, no one would blame the fish. Fishing is a healthy activity taken in one's own solitude, having an OW is not. A fish doesn't decide to get caught. A fish tries its best not to be caught. Apples and kiwi fruit.

[bonehead]

Of course' date=' no one would blame the fish. Fishing is a healthy activity taken in one's own solitude, having an OW is not. A fish doesn't decide to get caught. A fish tries its best not to be caught. Apples and kiwi fruit.[/quote']

 

I see where Frannie is going with this. ( I think )

 

Some men as an escape from a troubled marriage will dive into their work. ( It was nothing for me to put in 80 hour weeks when things were bad )

 

Others look to other activities, such as fishing, motorsports, league sports.

[NoIDidn't]

I see where Frannie is going with this. ( I think )

 

Some men as an escape from a troubled marriage will dive into their work. ( It was nothing for me to put in 80 hour weeks when things were bad )

 

Others look to other activities, such as fishing, motorsports, league sports.

 

I could too, a little tongue in cheek reply....the apples and kiwi fruit.

 

Still not healthy. The OW is an escape to some too, but she is a person that could totally replace the primary R.

 

I have a friend going through this right now with her H. He refuses to come home from his activities. And believe me, the activities and everyone that he does them with get the blame. And her H has serious personal issues. Big time. Its not a reflection on her, its all on him. If there was OW in this sitch, she would be yet another band-aid on his myriad of deep seated issues. His M wasn't troubled from what I could see, but he always was. I have known them for 8 years.

[bonehead]

Still not healthy. The OW is an escape to some too, but she is a person that could totally replace the primary R.

 

My work replaced the relationship for almost a year.

 

 

I have a friend going through this right now with her H. He refuses to come home from his activities. And believe me, the activities and everyone that he does them with get the blame. And her H has serious personal issues. Big time. Its not a reflection on her, its all on him. If there was OW in this sitch, she would be yet another band-aid on his myriad of deep seated issues. His M wasn't troubled from what I could see, but he always was. I have known them for 8 years.

 

 

If HE is troubled more then likely there is trouble in the marriage. Maybe not anything that would be visible to the outside world, but to him and his wife Im almost positive there would be. ( Him refusing to come home raises issues right? )

 

A marriage is such a close bond that personal issues quite often DO become marriage issues. The strength of the marriage is one of the factors that influances how they are handled.

[frannie]

 

I have a friend going through this right now with her H. He refuses to come home from his activities. And believe me, the activities and everyone that he does them with get the blame. And her H has serious personal issues. Big time. Its not a reflection on her, its all on him. If there was OW in this sitch, she would be yet another band-aid on his myriad of deep seated issues. His M wasn't troubled from what I could see, but he always was. I have known them for 8 years.

 

Well, this is my point. It's about their marriage and the people in it (the H and the W). It's not about the other people at all.

[frannie]

Of course' date=' no one would blame the fish. Fishing is a healthy activity taken in one's own solitude, having an OW is not. A fish doesn't decide to get caught. A fish tries its best not to be caught. Apples and kiwi fruit.[/quote']

 

Hmm... I think you took my analogy right out of context in order to prove a point of your own.

[frannie]

I think maybe you might have missed my point, Frannie.

 

For some people, it's more than "awkward". It's a crisis of conscience. For somebody like that.. the idea that friends and family will eventually find out, is less troubling than the fact that they, themselves, KNOW they took part in abetting the lies.

 

For folks like that, there's an additional painful element of the affair as they deal with the inner trauma of having taken action outside their personal belief system.

 

This doesn't seem to be your particular struggle. In which case, my previous post won't apply to you directly.

 

If it troubled you in any way that I used your specific screen-name... I do apologize.

It wasn't my intent to single you out. My intent was to elaborate on an earlier thought.

 

It didn't trouble me, but since you addressed me directly, I replied.

 

I didn't miss your point, I just don't have the problem you are talking about. I'm not having a 'crisis of conscience' because I'm not doing something that goes (completely) against what I consider to be morally acceptable. I've given my reasons for that already on this thread.

 

I wouldn't do something that went against my conscience, period. No matter what it was, I just wouldn't do it.

[NoIDidn't]

Hmm... I think you took my analogy right out of context in order to prove a point of your own.

 

Of course I did. I also said that it was tongue in cheek if you read any of the further replies between me and BH.

 

No need to think, that's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, its difficult to relay humor in print - at least for me it is.

[NoIDidn't]

Well, this is my point. It's about their marriage and the people in it (the H and the W). It's not about the other people at all.

 

That's where we will agree to disagree, but not completely.

 

I believe the problems in the M belong to those that are in it. But, when another person is added, that person ADDS to the problems. Hobbies and other outside activities have a healthy place in every relationship when they are not used to escape. But there is nothing healthy about adding another person to a M. Nothing.

 

I agree with you mostly, but saying that its not about other people once they have been added just attempts to give the other person some kind of immunity.

 

That's just me. I haven't had my coffee yet, so I probably don't make much sense either.

[bonehead]

I believe the problems in the M belong to those that are in it. But, when another person is added, that person ADDS to the problems. Hobbies and other outside activities have a healthy place in every relationship when they are not used to escape. But there is nothing healthy about adding another person to a M. Nothing.

 

I agree with you mostly, but saying that its not about other people once they have been added just attempts to give the other person some kind of immunity.

 

Actually when you think about it, in the context we are talking here the OP IS added to the marriage to a degree. The OP is with out a doubt involved in the dynamics of how and where the marriage is headed.

[Ripples]

I'm not having a 'crisis of conscience' because I'm not doing something that goes (completely) against what I consider to be morally acceptable.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

You've absolutely made my day

[NoIDidn't]

Actually when you think about it, in the context we are talking here the OP IS added to the marriage to a degree. The OP is with out a doubt involved in the dynamics of how and where the marriage is headed.

 

That's what I was trying to say. Only you said it better.

 

When the OP is added, part of it DOES become about them. Not all of it. Just part of it. That's why I only disagreed a little.