Do threats really work?

[How I ended up Here]

thanks lucrezia

[How I ended up Here]

Another thing I should add that I forgot to in my original post is that I have cut off the relationship completely since he decided to go back home to sort things out he has tried repeatedly to see me and the two times we did see each other in the past month I did not as much as hug him goodbye. It was just to sit face to face and hear him out so there is no hope of us continuing the relationship, and he knows I will stick to my guns because I have in the past and that is what prompted him to finally move out. But I asked him point blank to look me in the eyes and tell me that he still felt a little part in him that he should try to see if he can salvage the marriage and without missing a beat he said, no, I feel nothing for her other the care you have for an oldtime friend and I do not want to save the marriage at all. There is no marriage and has been none for a long time. He also said that they both agreed they are just friends (and barely even talk or share outings as friends) and all the passion has died long ago and that they are together out of comfort, yet when he tries to leave she cries and begs him to stay. But even this week he was out at functions by himself at night.

 

I just don't get it, can someone please tell me what what makes people stay???

[pureinheart]

Women have the ability to be abusive, both physically and mentally.....

 

I have seen this situation (person guilt trips other person to stay)....my friend used to tell her husband she had cancer or was pregnant in order to keep him...I really don't get it.

 

I understand the psyche involved, but still why would one want someone that doesn't want them....

[LucreziaBorgia]

why would one want someone that doesn't want them....

 

I don't know if its a matter of wanting that person, or needing what they represent to them - clinging for security reasons, not wanting to be alone, etc. They love the relationship, even if they have no reason to love the person anymore. Status quo, and all that.

[pureinheart]

Another thing I should add that I forgot to in my original post is that I have cut off the relationship completely since he decided to go back home to sort things out he has tried repeatedly to see me and the two times we did see each other in the past month I did not as much as hug him goodbye. It was just to sit face to face and hear him out so there is no hope of us continuing the relationship, and he knows I will stick to my guns because I have in the past and that is what prompted him to finally move out. But I asked him point blank to look me in the eyes and tell me that he still felt a little part in him that he should try to see if he can salvage the marriage and without missing a beat he said, no, I feel nothing for her other the care you have for an oldtime friend and I do not want to save the marriage at all. There is no marriage and has been none for a long time. He also said that they both agreed they are just friends (and barely even talk or share outings as friends) and all the passion has died long ago and that they are together out of comfort, yet when he tries to leave she cries and begs him to stay. But even this week he was out at functions by himself at night.

 

I just don't get it, can someone please tell me what what makes people stay???

 

 

Possibly fear of being alone? Sick begets sick....they are both caught up in "sick" and that is comforable for them

 

Possibly no matter how bad it's comfortable....change hurts....change takes courage

[pureinheart]

I don't know if its a matter of wanting that person, or needing what they represent to them - clinging for security reasons, not wanting to be alone, etc. They love the relationship, even if they have no reason to love the person anymore. Status quo, and all that.

 

yep....you got it!

[Romeo Must Die]

MM is in this couples counselling and yet he is with you at the same time, so his efforts are half-hearted at best. The MM cant truely devote himself to the marriage since he has another woman in the picture. It cuts both ways. If he is with another woman (the wife) it takes away from your intimate relationship so he should choose one or the other. It depends on if you want to settle for less than you really want from a man, married or otherwise. You would be truely blessed to have a man who was completely devoted to you and you alone and thats how I think it should be. I think MM ask so much to have the OW wait for them, I dont know how you could take that when you sacrificed so much in comparison. I'm sure his wife's world has been rocked by this as well. It just isnt right.

 

[pureinheart]

Originally Posted by LucreziaBorgia

I don't know if its a matter of wanting that person, or needing what they represent to them - clinging for security reasons, not wanting to be alone, etc. They love the relationship, even if they have no reason to love the person anymore. Status quo, and all that.

Wow...you really got it....in this one simple explanation....I have wondered and pondered this question...and there it is.....

I have been divorced 4 times....in all the marriages the men cheated, one left for the OW....I was unable to continue the marriage due to the infidelity, the last one I really tried but he continued to cheat. Three of them professed undying love....nope you don't cheat on someone you love.....

I was as just as much to blame, I had issues that didnot involve them and take responsibility for my mess. I have no regrets because they were all basically cool....in fact am friends with all of them today, they all still profess that undying love and try to get back together.

I see now, it was about something other than love, possibly in my situation security was the key, as unstable as I was in many areas...there were as many stable areas that were attractive.

To most of the BS out there, I would say not to take it personally, these men had issues that had nothing to do with you....there is every excuse in the world as far as the reasons for cheating, but it is about ones own issues....and there are many, some were sexually abused....ect....

Anyway, these nuggets of pure gold that I find in this forum are priceless!

[How I ended up Here]

"They love the relationship, even if they have no reason to love the person anymore. Status quo, and all that.""

 

Yup that's just it!!! He said she even said to him please don't leave since it will be so humiliating to tell everyone that it is through.

He proceeded to explain to her there is no humiliation in a rel not working out and that it is not something to feel humilated about but appartently she just does not understand, (or doesn't want to...)

 

 

ROMEO

 

I appreciate your comments but I know my right from wrong, I really don't need to have that spelled out. We are all human we all make huge mistakes, small mistakes, life changing mistakes, overlooked mistakes. I can say this is both huge and life changing for me. Despite beign caugh in the unspeakable, and letting something this "wrong"happen to me going against my core beliefs it has taught me that in life there is always room for mistake and we are ALL capable of it no matter how good or together we think we are, at the end of the day we are human and bound to mess up. Not to justify my situation and it would be different if I chose to proceed in the matter. I have gotten out and will be staying out until things are final in the direction I need them to be.

 

That said, it amazes me how many people automatically assume that an affair ruins a marriage missing the white elephant in the room which is that a marriage cannot be ruined unless it is already ruined. I know my situation I know that man that I am involved with and call me naive but I strongly feel he has neither done this before nor will he again given how much pain, suffering and aguish this whole ordeal has caused everyone involved. I do not wish my situation upon my worst enemy and I mean that sincerely. There is nothing worse than loving somoene that you cannot have. It's like meeting a person falling head over heels in love and right in the best of times having them get hit by a car and dying. That is the best example I can give, because I have loved and fallen out of love, have loved and decided the relationship was not going to work but NONE of that even begins to compare.

 

My situation was special (to me at least I'm sure most think this...call me naive...) in that I only gave myself to this man when I saw he was making moves to actually put his words to action. I only got involved with him when he moved out. She was away for months on end and it seemed like we were on a path, now she comes back and it is 20 steps back and that is my big lesson learned. You cannot start something with someone unless you are certain the chapter previous has been ended and put to rest, regardless of where he feels his heart is at at the time, and as I explianed he assures me and they both agree it was dead for years. In words he always assured me it was and in actions to a certain degree, but not his actions as of recent, they fall short.

 

As to the councelling point, they started two weeks ago because he said that he needs help from an outsider to make her realise it is through and he cannot do it alone given how she is taking it so he wants to "ease" her into the break up. he is not going to reconcile, so he says, he is doing it to for help in the break-up. But as I said to him it cannot help unless he tells the therapist he is now inlove withsomeone else. She is diagnosing on half truths and this is where it all gets really murky because he does not want to admit of this affair with me.

[pureinheart]

I appreciate your comments but I know my right from wrong, I really don't need to have that spelled out. We are all human we all make huge mistakes, small mistakes, life changing mistakes, overlooked mistakes. I can say this is both huge and life changing for me. (How I ended up here)

 

 

I didn't read Romeos post that caused this response, although I couldn't resist making a comment to this....

 

Mistakes....I am the queen of mistakes and could tell some stories that would cause all of you to nail me to a cross, your compassion would truely be tested with me.

 

There have been many pivotal turns in my life, circumstances that cause me to take a good look at where I'm at and going...all of these lead to the great pivotal change that is taking every circumstance and situation, putting it in it's right place.

 

Coming to terms with all of the past, finding forgiveness and peace, hoping not to repeat the mistakes, but turn them around and help others. Taking this very fragmented life and making sense out of all of it.

 

One major thing I've learned is God is not shocked concerning our mistakes. Just because a person does the wrong thing doesnot mean that their core beliefs are not in tact.

[Romeo Must Die]

I was talking about the MM, I am not judging you. What you do with your private life is your business. I noticed that one minute you are asking for support and the next minute you are defending MM. I think he is just using you and the excuses he has given you are pretty typical. All the reasons he gives you really dont make alot of sense. I asked Romeo (a former WH) to read your thread and he said the things your mm has said is weird. So just be careful and protect your heart.

 

Why does she have such a hold on him, I just about told you everything but you dont want to believe it because your MM assures you its different. He wont leave her over Christmas either and I bet six months from now you will still be speculating on the state of their marriage. Your affair is not the marriage, its special and unique in its own way but its not the same as the marriage. If it works out for you, great, your happiness is whats most important. I'm just saying you have put alot of faith and commitment into this MM and he is still with her. Thats a bad sign.

 

[pureinheart]

I'm just saying you have put alot of faith and commitment into this MM and he is still with her. Thats a bad sign. (Romeo Must Die)

 

Tell the truth! I did that very same thing, and when I finally realized that the situation mostlikely would not change, was devasted and numb. Became angry and bitter and was dying inside because of it....my health was in jeapordy....everything.

 

People will fail us....no matter how sincere a person may sound they are still human and capable of just about anything. This leads to people pleasing......in the case of OW/MM it is well defined in most cases wether communicated verbally or not what is eventually expected of the MM.

 

I think a MM will say anything they need to just to get by....it was so unrealistic of me to think anything would change....it's like I was overtaken by a bad spirit or something....the delusion I was in was unreal....

[How I ended up Here]

Well I agree that the excuses are weird which is why I came here for thoughts to begin with.

 

He did move out however, he took all his furniture and moved out so something of all his lies did match his words match his actions. Why would anyone go through the hassles of moving out signing a one year lease which I was with him when he did just to get into somoene's pants? Sorry but that just doesn't make sense in the best of cheater's minds.

I am not defending him I am trying to make sense of it all. As per the christmasn comment he is jewish, christmas means squat to him.

 

Pureinheart

 

your post is a real eye opener!!!

[bonehead]

and what do you think will happen when your Married mans WIFE finds out about you?

 

The question here had NOTHING to do with exposure, it had to do with threats keeping a MM/MW in an unhappy relationship.

[FlyingHigh]

Why would anyone go through the hassles of moving out signing a one year lease which I was with him when he did just to get into somoene's pants?

It's the only option for the time being to prove to you, the OW, a half-a$$ token of his superficial credibility...just enough for you to believe him and wait for him. If it were you whom he have chosen, he would've gone ahead and divorced his wife in order to be with you. Despite what he has told you, he still deeply cares for his wife. There's still a part of him that keeps him in his marriage. After all, your relationship with him was "artificially" created from beginning.

[frannie]

there you go. You got it. TO BE HONEST...

goahead be honest. Tell her or better yet tell him your telling her...

 

Are you suggesting I tell his wife he's having an affair? Why? What reason on earth could I have for such an action?

[frannie]

Are you suggesting I tell his wife he's having an affair? Why? What reason on earth could I have for such an action?

 

On second thoughts, don't answer that. There's already been enough of a thread-jack.

 

My apologies to the OP.

[frannie]

It's the only option for the time being to prove to you, the OW, a half-a$$ token of his superficial credibility...just enough for you to believe him and wait for him. If it were you whom he have chosen, he would've gone ahead and divorced his wife in order to be with you. Despite what he has told you, he still deeply cares for his wife. There's still a part of him that keeps him in his marriage. After all, your relationship with him was "artificially" created from beginning.

 

Hmm. It seems an awful lot of trouble, expense and disruption to go to, not to mention the message to his wife (who I assume you're suggesting he really wants to stay with)... JUST so he can 'fool' the OW into hanging on?

 

Unlikely, in my opinion.

[How I ended up Here]

Hmm. It seems an awful lot of trouble, expense and disruption to go to, not to mention the message to his wife (who I assume you're suggesting he really wants to stay with)... JUST so he can 'fool' the OW into hanging on?

Frannie:

 

 

yeah that's what I'm thinking, I also know his financial situation and it is not the best these days he just started his own business, left a secure desk job that payed extremely well which he hated to pursue his own venture, which is taking up a lot of his money and his financial situation is super tight. Yet he is going to make a move like that just to keep up his "lies" with me? I dunnow....what human being would go to those extremes?

 

What still does not make sense is my original question and post is that if a woman who is career minded, who is gone doing her work months at a time in other countries, is going to be begging as she is for him to stay? That doesn't make sense to me. I mean sure people's characters can surprise in moments of desperation and that is the only thing I can think of. But someone said something about the status quo thing and quite frankly she did bring that up to him so there is a whole slew of things being guilt tripped into him and he is quite impressionable. I have grown to see his character and is easily inluenced...I dunnow sounds like I am making excuses again for him but it is really a mistery.

[frannie]

How I Ended up Here:

 

Certainly some things are just not adding up in this situation.

 

Looking at what you've written I just go back to my first post to you, which said that at the least (if he's not outright lying to you), you still have a problem in that it seems to me that he's sending her mixed messages. You're possibly right that he's 'impressionable' in terms of relationships... but looking at it in another way, he's also just made some significant breaks in work terms. So you know he can be determined, make decisions, and changes where he thinks they're needed.

 

There's no possibility that this new apartment is connected with finances, taxes and his new venture...? I don't know how, but... It's just a thought.

 

Do you have any other suggestions..?

[puddleofmud]

"Too many cooks spoil the soup"...

There are too many variables, period. Until this MM finds peace within his own self by working out all the variables of the life he already has he really has nothing to offer any one (other than high drama).

This emotionally dangerous at best and could be dangerous in other ways as well.

It really doesn't matter as to whom is doing what to whom at this point because the fact is that HE is not available via his own decisions and all you can see is their smoke screen about which YOU are not responsible other than to cough, flag your pretty hand about your face for fresh air as you leave the battle ground!

Step out and breathe...for a good long while because this is something for which there is no cure other than these married persons coming to terms, be it staying or going and all in between.

Best wishes to you!

[How I ended up Here]

Frannie:

 

You should be a detective, very good conclusions!! Re. the making a decision and taking a stance and pursuing it (professionally) you are absolutely right! He is quite capable of moving mountains professionally speaking I've seen him in action and he is quite determined. I'm not sure the points you made re. the place being a tax shelter for his business quite apply to this guy though, his venture is not at a point where he can write things off for the business just yet. but heck it got me thinking...very smart!!!

 

Puddleofmud:

 

You are so right in so many things you said. It is just that. One of the things I keep saying to him when he tells me he is deeply in love with me ( he still tries to contact me all the time and I refuse to see or speak to him) is that he is suffering more than I can imagine because he knows what he wants and but is stuck in a place of guilt and not knowing how to handle his wife's depression or whatever it is...is that HE is in control of his own suffering as well as those involved, myself and his wife. In an angry tirade I told him he had such low self esteem that he enjoyed playing God, playing with two human being's lives like puppets. I hurt for what he is doing to his wife and myself, believe it or not. I also feel tremendous amount of guilt now that he has taken a step back and I feel for his wife and I bet she would not beg for him if she knew what he had done. He's nothing more than a coward, a selfish man going through a midlife crissis but in his 30s. I've said many hurtful things to him lately and all he can say back is that he loves me more than he has ever loved any woman. It makes me so angry when he says that because he is so messed up that he cannot even see the harm he is doing to all around him.

 

I just read another post on here about men who stay for the sake of the children, I am coming to realise that adulturers will use any excuse imaginable to continue on in the wrong. What an unattractive quality. I told him I basically cannot be with a man who is that weak and who would chose to live a lie over saving the one shred of integrity he has left. He has to come clean either to me or her but he has to do it or else he will fester in his own slime for the rest of his days. I feel I have my just dessert when I think of his inner turmoil, I know that's wrong but I do feel that people like him cannot do what he did and expect to come out of it scot free. Life just does not work that way. And it's not to excuse what I did, I have my own cross to bear, but I never made a life commitment to his wife, HE did. If I had know he was this shaky in his decission I would have NEVER got invovled with him. I refuse to be his OW.

 

Ultimately he is selfish and needs to work things out on his own. It's funny and the thing that bothers me most is that when we first met before we were even involved and he would assure me that there was nothing left in his marriage, and I remember asking him how he seemed so well when he had moved out the first time (lived in a hotel for 2 weeks) was why he did not seem like he was upset by his move, his answer to me was "Well I have been watching my marriage die for a long time now I already did my mourning while I was still in the house sleeping in the same bed with her" So many times we talked for hours on end and I studied his every word his every action until he finally moved out. He really seemed like had come to terms with his marriage breaking up. And this is why I got involved with him when he moved out but stupid me I should have learned to not trust just words.

 

And Puddle, thank you for your sound words of encouragement.

[puddleofmud]

You not only have a pretty hand but a lovely soul and a smart mind! So sorry you are going through this, but you are doing a wonderful job of taking care of yourself and I feel you should not feel badly about your self discovery.

Take that and RUN with it and enjoy every thing about it.

At some point you will find a match that is equal to your gain but that is not what is important right now!

At this juncture you are the warrior on the battle ground of your life and that is something to be very proud about and I am very proud for you!

Hang in there, sweetie!

Hugs to you.

[frannie]

I agree with puddleofmud. You're doing a great job of thinking your way through this and keeping sane.

[How I ended up Here]

Thank you so much Puddle, what sweet words. It's great to see some caring words even for those of us that are not the most honorouble in our actions but that there are still people out there willing to understand both sides.

 

And thanks to you too Frannie.

 

Well I was going to respond last night but I got a phone call from him, I did not answer it and he called me many times and left me several messages to call him right away. I don't pick up his calls at least have not in the last month or so. Well he called again later and I picked it up to see what he wanted. It was to tell me that he had done it that he was oficially in his new place for good. That this time apart helped him realize that she was being manipulative and that he had to put his foot down, he told me he would do whatever it took not to lose me because he feels I am the love of his life (we have discussed this many times and we really do feel like soul mates) he invited me over to his place for dinner this weekend I told him I loved him and was happy he had made this decision but that it was not a good idea for the time being to jump into things. I want him to get used to his own place and being on his own and to hace space to sort things out with her since she will def. be in the picture for the next while if not for quite a long while and I don't want anymore drama. I also told him mu trust is shot for now and if we want to start something we need to build that trust and part of that is for him to no rush me into anything right now.

 

 

He suggested that when I do want to start something we should consider going to couples councelling to ensure we go into our relationship full on with the intent to succeed. It blew me away that he came up with that idea on his own, and I though I feel like I have to take it slow and play my cards right this time around I can see that my gut feeling (though my head played tricks on me many times) was not that off. I can only hope things will work out for everyone but I have to take responsibility this time around and not allow myself to be put in the situation I was in EVER again.

 

This does not begin to tell what is in store for me I want to thank everyone who shared their insite on my situation.

Though I have learned a valuable lesson in that I would never ever let myself get involved as I did on words alone again, I am also learning that each particular case is unique. We cannot paint everyone with the same brush and that actions speak louder than words.