Dysfunctional communication....

[BabyPhoenix]

Hi MA,

 

I know you have been through a rough day, and I think that all these poster’s inputs have been helpful.

 

However, I still feel like you are addressing an itch rather than the systemic illness.

 

Let’s just look at a few facts:

1. You have been seeing each other for two years, and these problems were there in the beginning, and have only escalated, according to you.

2. Your communication with each other over these years, has also not improved, and may in fact have deteriorated.

3. Your emotions surrounding this, paraphrasing you, have turned you into a cold, unfeeling person.

4. [girlfriend] refuses therapy

 

So, I will ask you again:

 

And how is that working for you? Are you happy? Fulfilled?

 

How is this relationship enhancing your life?

 

We all know that relationships are hard work. But how much hard work should we be expected to put in? Should we toil until there is no beauty left in our souls, until all life and joy has been slowly chiseled from our hearts? How much hurtfulness and negativity can each party take before there is just nothing left?

 

I think II presents and excellent allegory:

 

And what if you feel that a person with whom you are in a relationship, is approaching the relationship blindfolded? But for one reason or another you cannot or may not address that issue, even though the two of you are running into fights, arguments, and what not as a result of people being blindfolded?

 

Sometimes it just seems that people cannot have a healthy relationship with each other because their flaws are not compatible.

 

 

There has to be a basic degree of compatibility and understanding of the other in order for a relationship to succeed. I know that you desperately want this relationship to work. The only way it will, though, is if you both actively start viewing this relationship in a new way, and start reacting to the other completely differently. a plus b can no longer equal c. The equation has to change. You have spent two years together, with no discernable behavioural or reactive changes towards the other.

 

How long are you willing to let this cycle of negativity and pain continue?

[InsanityImpaired]

Of course it is not random behavior; yet little fruitful effort seems to have been made to improve this. That points to issues on all sides in the relationship.

 

Please elaborate...

 

1. There is a communication issue. Actually 2. One on her part, one on yours. Your communication becomes cold, almost a lecture. Which is not good at all. It is an expression of your frustration. Yet at the same time, no matter how you communicate with her, you get similar responses. And the effectivity of "normal" communication is apparently next to none, judging by your words. Or simply random. At times it seems nothing can be gained with normal communication. Sadly not much can be gained in another way either .

 

Her communication is also lacking substantially. You get no clue on what she wants. Countering a question with a question is evasive communication. She is being philosophical, in a Socratic sense, instead of being practical to address issues inside the relationship. That does not work for you and for her.

It does not work for her, because she will be disappointed because you do not do what she expects. It seems to be frustrating you - you simply do not know what is expected of you. Hence you make mistake upon mistake, in her perception, at least judging by her actions. Which frustrates you more and more.

 

2. The motivations / causes behind the dysfunctional communication. What is the cause behind the dysfunctional communication? Why does she believe herself to be attacked, when OP tells her that he likes who he is? I am not qualified to comment too much on this matter. But it is clear that too little has been done, to destroy this relationship-destroying mechanism in the past two years.

 

The sensitivity of her reactions when you bring up "her" as a subject is worrisome. If she does not mind discussing you, but puts up a "wall of anger" when the discussion is about her, the cause is probably either the frustrating communication, or some issue beyond this relationship.

 

The former could be remedied, provided the both of you would work on your communication skills. Judging by your statements that is not happening at the moment , for whatever reason(s). The latter is beyond the scope of the relationship. And cannot be cured by making more of an effort within the relationship alone - it may even be excaberated this way.

 

BabyPhoenix is right. The current equation is not working anymore.

1. What progress have you seen in the past two years, that makes you think that it may be corrected? Same question for her.

2. What do you think is needed to correct this imbalance? Same question for her.

3. Can you agree with the things she mentions about you, which need change? Same question for her.

4. Will you actually adress the issues, by making a big effort to change these things? Same question for her.

5. And if #4 does not happen, are you willing to face the music and walk away? Same question for her.

 

Of course, the both of you need to reassess the efforts, and the effectivity of these changes constantly. Not doing a thing to change things around, will only lead to more frustration.

 

Of course, this is just an outside perspective, and the feasability of such an endeavour can only be judged by OP and his girlfriend.

[Walk]

My guess... you show her you love her in ways that mean something to you. And you try to do those things you feel she wants. She probably doesnt' see it as "loving gestures". She feels like you don't love her because you aren't doing the things she see's as loving gestures. You feel like you're exhausted doing those gestures to ease her insecurities. Neither of you feel satisfied. She gets more and more defensive toward even the smallest sign that you aren't in love with her anymore.

 

Problem is, unless she defines what she needs from you, (and communicates that with you) then she'll never get it. Not from you, or anyone else she ever meets.

 

This is kind of a side note.. but I would toss that BS about not being able to say I love you out the freakin' window. I understand she has hang ups. She sounds like she's scared to death that you're going to just drop her at any second and that contributes to her feeling like you don't care. But how do you prove you won't? All you have is the past to reflect your true intent. Unless every argument you're threatening to leave.. but I didn't hear that in your posts. She wants a guarantee of the future, but she's sabatoging it with her insecurities and can't even see that. It's sad. She's creating a self-fulfilling destiny. She believes you'll won't stick around and you won't continue to love her, and she takes small things as a sign of this outcome... then gets hysterical when she thinks it's coming true, which pushes you even further away until eventually you will leave.

[dgiirl]

You're barkin up the wrong tree, see that's MY role in the whole thing...I'm being to dammed forgiving.

 

I have one response to your whole message. Yes, I agree your girl has communication issues, and probably insecurity issues, and she's not innocent at all. However, from what you've posted, I dont see you being a "forgiving" saint. And i think this thought is just giving you a false sense of arrogance to believe that the whole problem lies with your girl than taking mutual ownership in the problems.

 

I see you communicating in your own way which just add's more fuel to the fire. And when people point this out to you, you're getting defensive. Just because she snipes back or "beats the hell out of your pov" does not mean you should do the same. Someone has to be the bigger person and learn to change their communication patterns. And clearly, the way you communicate with her is NOT working. I'm not blaming you. I'm not saying she's innocent. I'm just saying the way you are communicating with her is not working. How you got to this point, why you react the way you are, is meaningless. You can justify it all you want, you can feel entitled to your feelings all you want, it still is not going to fix the problem. And in this case the end result is what is most important, no?

[suchislife]

I have to be honest, I couldn't read the whole post. The he said, she said, in the beginning pretty much did me in. I'm not trying to be flip when I say that - it was just overwhelming.

 

IMHO, if you love her, love her. If you don't, don't. It doesn't matter what the other person thinks, be true to yourself and believe me, you will know what to do in the end, based on your feelings and her reaction to your feelings. You will know.

 

I really liked what someone on the post wrote - that your flaws have to be compatible. How true.

 

Try to relax. I know that's easy to say. But try it. see what happens.

 

Take care.

[MassiveAtom]

I have one response to your whole message. Yes, I agree your girl has communication issues, and probably insecurity issues, and she's not innocent at all. However, from what you've posted, I dont see you being a "forgiving" saint.

Never said I was a saint. but I am forgiving. I do it all the time. It's just the same things KEEP happening and there's a limit to it for me.

And i think this thought is just giving you a false sense of arrogance to believe that the whole problem lies with your girl than taking mutual ownership in the problems.

It's not a matter of me accepting them, it's a matter of me LEARNING them... A couple of the last posts are just what the doctor ordered.

I see you communicating in your own way which just add's more fuel to the fire. And when people point this out to you, you're getting defensive.

I am? Seemed to me that I was accepting most points of view on a pretty even keel. Can we get independent verification on that please? Maybe I am becoming defensive, but I don't realize it.

 

Just because she snipes back or "beats the hell out of your pov" does not mean you should do the same. Someone has to be the bigger person and learn to change their communication patterns. And clearly, the way you communicate with her is NOT working.

BUt dgirl, I HAVE changed it numerous times. from soft and sweet, to authoritative, to complacent, to rigid, to forced, to lecture, to SCREAMING, to hanging up and not talking, to the point of exhaustion. There is hope here though.... I saw it this morning.

I'm not blaming you. I'm not saying she's innocent. I'm just saying the way you are communicating with her is not working. How you got to this point, why you react the way you are, is meaningless. You can justify it all you want, you can feel entitled to your feelings all you want, it still is not going to fix the problem. And in this case the end result is what is most important, no?

If I read this correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, The underlying personality traits are irrelevant to the way we communicate with each other?

[MassiveAtom]

My guess... you show her you love her in ways that mean something to you. And you try to do those things you feel she wants. She probably doesnt' see it as "loving gestures". She feels like you don't love her because you aren't doing the things she see's as loving gestures. You feel like you're exhausted doing those gestures to ease her insecurities. Neither of you feel satisfied. She gets more and more defensive toward even the smallest sign that you aren't in love with her anymore.

I've been there before, Walk. I don't even try anymore and you know what? She swoons over the oddest little things. I mean she nearly sucked my face off because I went to the car and brought in her shoes one morning. When I do the things I KNOW she likes, like carry out pizza, w/candles and Pinot Noir, or a motorcycle trip to a greasy spoon diner, It's like the world is made just for her and I, I LOVE that, The biggest problem this relationship has is this HORRIBLE communication thing.... everything else can be talked through if only that was there.

Problem is, unless she defines what she needs from you, (and communicates that with you) then she'll never get it. Not from you, or anyone else she ever meets.

True.

 

This is kind of a side note.. but I would toss that BS about not being able to say I love you out the freakin' window. I understand she has hang ups. She sounds like she's scared to death that you're going to just drop her at any second and that contributes to her feeling like you don't care. But how do you prove you won't? All you have is the past to reflect your true intent. Unless every argument you're threatening to leave.. but I didn't hear that in your posts. She wants a guarantee of the future, but she's sabatoging it with her insecurities and can't even see that. It's sad. She's creating a self-fulfilling destiny. She believes you'll won't stick around and you won't continue to love her, and she takes small things as a sign of this outcome... then gets hysterical when she thinks it's coming true, which pushes you even further away until eventually you will leave.

 

Damn! What!? did you read my friggin mind?! That's exactly how I feel. I have to say stuff like " I have BIG feelings for you right now" she said that once and I figured she'd understand "what it meant" she did. but admonished me about it. I don't know.. but I can't stand it.

 

We have broken up several times at my request and hers... maybe that's it....wait a second....maybe that IS a big part of this....

[MassiveAtom]

Originally Posted by BabyPhoenix

And how is that working for you? Are you happy?

 

 

I am happy with or without a central relationship. happier with bcause of the positives a relationship brings. I do feel it's hard to maintain happiness in this relationship when the bad stuff gets going.

 

Fulfilled?

Fulfilled, HAH! Me? I'm always looking for something else to do. in the relationship, I am when it's good, and when it's bad I feel like I want to scream! sometimes I do.

How is this relationship enhancing your life?

Forgive me BP if I don't respond to that publicly. It does enrich and enhance my life, but in ways I'd rather keep private at this time.

 

How long are you willing to let this cycle of negativity and pain continue?

Til the holidays are over? LOL!!

[Walk]

Damn! What!? did you read my friggin mind?! That's exactly how I feel. I have to say stuff like " I have BIG feelings for you right now" she said that once and I figured she'd understand "what it meant" she did. but admonished me about it. I don't know.. but I can't stand it.

 

We have broken up several times at my request and hers... maybe that's it....wait a second....maybe that IS a big part of this....

 

I'd say that might have a part in it.

 

I got out of a nasty divorce a few years ago, and after I started a relationship with my bf I had such a pessimistic belief that he didn't mean anything he said. It was like torture. I wanted to hear all those sweet things, and I love you's, but I believed they were fake when he said it. I kept waiting for him to just leave. I really pushed his buttons too... not on purpose, but more of a defense mechanism. But he'd imply that we weren't going to make it, that we were over, that he could go get another girl would be happy to have him.. blah blah... It was his defense mechanism kicking in. But he never left. He'd go away to cool off for a few hours, we even sat and had the "break up" talk. But neither of us would give up. Shyt, even when he was boiling mad at me he'd break in to the argument and tell me he knew I was hungry and so was he, and would I like to join him for dinner. And he'd point blank tell me, he cared about my well being no matter what our differences were.

 

How long have you two been together anyway?

 

I guess my suggestion is tell her what you do that shows her that you aren't going anywhere and that your heart lies with her. Actions speak louder than words. Make her look back at the past and tell her what those actions meant to you. or what you were saying by doing those actions. My bf's done that to me on occasion.. I get hung up on the now and only seeing things a cretain way.

 

Otherwise.. I pull this one on my bf and it seems to work.. in an especially heated parts of the argument, and I feel like he's stopped listening, I remind him that we're supposed to be working together on this. And could we both try to do that. Then a lot of statements about how it's no ones fault, neither of us are "wrong" we're just not commuicating well.

 

I get really defensive and bf has to remind me many many times that he's not accusing me of being horrible only that he has a problem and is asking for my help.

 

I think you're girl is feeling that you are blaming her for all the problems, and it perpetuates her feelings that you don't love her.. if you loved her then you wouldn't blame her.. probably screwed up logic.

 

Last thought. Lay down some rules about arguing effectively. No yelling or screaming, no hanging up on the other person. Keep it civil. Enforce the rules. You'll never accomplish anything if you argue like you two are... the screaming and stuff has to stop in order for both of you to even come close to having an effective argument. Otherwise, you two will end up pissed off because of the argument, not because of the problem, and then you'll argue about behavior done while mad, and it's just a horrible downward spiraling cycle.

[MassiveAtom]

I'd say that might have a part in it.

 

I got out of a nasty divorce a few years ago, and after I started a relationship with my bf I had such a pessimistic belief that he didn't mean anything he said. It was like torture. I wanted to hear all those sweet things, and I love you's, but I believed they were fake when he said it. I kept waiting for him to just leave. I really pushed his buttons too... not on purpose, but more of a defense mechanism. But he'd imply that we weren't going to make it, that we were over, that he could go get another girl would be happy to have him.. blah blah... It was his defense mechanism kicking in. But he never left. He'd go away to cool off for a few hours, we even sat and had the "break up" talk. But neither of us would give up. Shyt, even when he was boiling mad at me he'd break in to the argument and tell me he knew I was hungry and so was he, and would I like to join him for dinner. And he'd point blank tell me, he cared about my well being no matter what our differences were.

sounds like my situation...I don't tell her I could go and find someone else though...and when I need to cool off it's like I'm tearing her heart out...She gets SOOO angry.

How long have you two been together anyway?

two years... with 4 months of not-together time

I guess my suggestion is tell her what you do that shows her that you aren't going anywhere and that your heart lies with her. Actions speak louder than words. Make her look back at the past and tell her what those actions meant to you. or what you were saying by doing those actions. My bf's done that to me on occasion.. I get hung up on the now and only seeing things a cretain way.

 

Otherwise.. I pull this one on my bf and it seems to work.. in an especially heated parts of the argument, and I feel like he's stopped listening, I remind him that we're supposed to be working together on this. And could we both try to do that. Then a lot of statements about how it's no ones fault, neither of us are "wrong" we're just not commuicating well.

You know what I came up with? get ready... when it's so far gone that I don't even KNOW what the argument is about, I drop my pants!! and just stand there looking at her! LOL!! It usually works...

 

I get really defensive and bf has to remind me many many times that he's not accusing me of being horrible only that he has a problem and is asking for my help.

 

I think you're girl is feeling that you are blaming her for all the problems, and it perpetuates her feelings that you don't love her.. if you loved her then you wouldn't blame her.. probably screwed up logic.

and it has the potency to kill love where it lives.

Last thought. Lay down some rules about arguing effectively. No yelling or screaming, no hanging up on the other person. Keep it civil. Enforce the rules. You'll never accomplish anything if you argue like you two are... the screaming and stuff has to stop in order for both of you to even come close to having an effective argument. Otherwise, you two will end up pissed off because of the argument, not because of the problem, and then you'll argue about behavior done while mad, and it's just a horrible downward spiraling cycle.

We did that last night, Here are the rules we agreed on...

1. Speak softly and slowly, without sounding drunk of course.
   
2. no lecturing, 2 minutes tops for each turn
   
3. Check in as often as needed
   
4. be patient
   
5. keep the conversation in the here and now, yesterday is gone.
   
6. when patience wears thin, agree to step away and come back later
   
7. allow for misunderstandings, and don't take them personally
   
8. Answer questions directly
   
9. Be honest
   
10. when all else fails, drop trou!
    

 

I explained what happened in an earlier post.

 

And today I fell like I'm paralyzed, like I can't say anything to her or answer her questions honestly because I'm worried about how she'll react. I'm usually NOT a worrier. Not even with big medical stuff, I believe it'll all come out okay, no matter what happens. But with her, now, it's different.

[Guest]

I agree! Your'e a bit too rational and regulated,it would drive me insane if I were her.

 

If someone was angry with me I'd want them to just be angry and express it,not tell me "i am feeling angry I'm going to have a cup of tea then we can talk about this rationally" " it would seem like they are completely out of touch with there emotions.

 

 

Walk is right on!

There is a HUGE difference between talking calmly to someone and talking to them like you are lecturing them. It sounds as if you are lecturing her whereas she is trying, in the emails at least, to calmly answer your question.

Imagine it like this:

If you called your gf and said "I was just in a car accident" and she said "Oh, that is tragic. It must have been your failure to yield to oncoming traffic or possibly it was the fact that you were engaging in the delicate yet precise operation of trying to extricate an article of clothing from the rear-half of your automobile. Perhaps you should consider going back to Drivers Ed or possibly enrolling in a defensive driving class?"

Or do you want her to say "That sucks. I'll come and pick you up. Everyone has accidents. I am glad that you are OK."

Whether this car accident was your fault or not it doesn't matter. It is her reaction that matters.

Your emails to her sound like you are writing a letter in a technical writing class I took in my sophomore year in college.

That is my take on the emails. Your relationship with her is a different matter.

lighthouse

[MassiveAtom]

I agree! Your'e a bit too rational and regulated,it would drive me insane if I were her.

 

If someone was angry with me I'd want them to just be angry and express it,not tell me "i am feeling angry I'm going to have a cup of tea then we can talk about this rationally" " it would seem like they are completely out of touch with there emotions.

 

It just the opposite friend. Being conscious enough to know when you've gotten to the point of not being able to have a conversation without damaging the relationship, the other person or yourself, is actually being IN TOUCH with your emotions.

[Walk]

and when I need to cool off it's like I'm tearing her heart out...She gets SOOO angry.

 

Maybe just remind her that it's a pause in the arugment, give her a general idea where your off to (ie: a walk, or a drive, etc.) and reiterate that you'll be back either later that evening, or the next morning to sit down and hash things out. But I really needed that reassurance from my bf that he planned on coming back. Otherwise it drove me crazy, and I had to keep him there and talking no matter how pissed he was, because for him to walk out the door meant (in my mind) that he was going for good.

 

two years... with 4 months of not-together time

You know what I came up with? get ready... when it's so far gone that I don't even KNOW what the argument is about, I drop my pants!! and just stand there looking at her! LOL!! It usually works...

 

OMG!!!! I am stealing that one! This is going to top the list of our "Argument rules" hahahaha

 

And today I fell like I'm paralyzed, like I can't say anything to her or answer her questions honestly because I'm worried about how she'll react. I'm usually NOT a worrier. Not even with big medical stuff, I believe it'll all come out okay, no matter what happens. But with her, now, it's different.

 

Why were you worried about how she would react? Has she been acting differently, or something changed in how she talks to you? Or is it just the stress and the arguing have settled into a shocked paralyzed feeling.. the kind where you just want it all to be over with because you're body is starting to eat itself from all the wear and tear it's going through...?

 

I've found when I get that way, usually after arguing for several days in a row... I've found if I just let my bf talk for as long as he needs to about whatever he's upset about, that we tend to iron things out the best. He cares about my problems, so I don't worry that they won't get addressed.. its just that when things get so wearing, one person kind of has to make their ego take a back seat for a bit. Let one person air their problem, try to resolve that. Then go to the other persons problem and work on that. Otherwise we tend to just butt heads for days and days and days.. exhausting. But the only way this works is if he's past the anger stage. He has to be calm enough to accept my help. Same for me.

 

That might not help for you two, but I've found when in doubt, sometimes it's a good call to just collect information.. let the other person talk, I ask quesitons, they talk more.. I ask more questions.. usually understanding occurs somewhere in there, and both of us feel like we're actually getting somewhere.

[MassiveAtom]

This morning, I was going to pick up my kids for thanksgiving day and the next few days. I agreed with my ex that I'd be there at 10:00. At 9:15, I asked my girlfriend if she was coming with me to pick them up. We had this conversation a couple days ago as well, and she said she needed to think about it. She never followed up and didn't tell me her decision. What she did do was ask, "Do you want me to go?" I said, "Yes I do... but don't you have to start cooking or something?" She told me her dishes only took 5 minutes to prepare. With that I said "Oh, okay, in that case come on." Happily, and genuinely pleased that she was coming, I answered the phone call that I had just recieived. It was a friend telling me about his drama with his EX. I wrapped that call quickly because I don't have hands free and it illegal to drive while on a cell here.

 

On the way out the door, she stands there looking at me, I said, "whatcha doin? aren't you coming?" "You don't want me to come with you, you want me to stay here and start cooking... don't you know this is hard for me?" was her reply. Running late now, I saw where I went wrong. I assumed that telling her I wanted her to come with me was enough to assuage any negative feelings she might've had. And by cutting the Phone conversation short, she'd understand that I was on a timetable, and I didn't have time to dally around.

 

I told her calmly, "Look, I want you to come, and I'm running late so please can we just go?" Again, she told me I didn't want her to come. I said, "I don't have time for this, I hope you'll understand, but I have to go. " and walked out the screen door. Then she escalated.... "Well I'm not staying here." To which I responded, "Okay, but i still have to go, I said I wanted you come with me, now would you please come on!" yeah, I was a little irritated at this point. She finally came out, it's 9:45 now. and we headed for the car. I opened the door for her, she sat on the chair and as I got in the car,

I saw she was sitting there, door still open, talking about, "I don't want this...if you can't start being nice to me I don't want this and I want you to get my stuff so I can go home!" She's crying now. :confused:

 

More of the same ensued, I called my ex, told her I was running late. and I'd be there at 10:15. I was walking back to get my girlfriends stuff. I don't know how I wasn't being nice. If anybody has a clue about that...please tell me

 

I finally got her to close the door so I could drive the car... she yelled at me incessantly, muttered nasty little comments under her breath, and literally GRABBED MY ARM while I was driving! WTF!!!!!!!

 

Then when we picked up my kids, it was all smiles from her and such. mind you she was cold and stand-offish to me for the rest of the day. Back at the house, she started in JUST after arrival with, "If you want me to leave, I'll leave." I told her I didn't want her to leave. I told her that RIGHT AWAY. "then why won't you be nice to me?" she demanded...

 

"We can't do this now, [name], we have start dinner, the Turkey takes 4 hours, and we have two hours worth of stuff to make first. we have to get started. Can we talk abou this later?"

 

"NO! We have to talk about it NOW! Why are you always running away from converSATIons!? GOD! You know what, I'm leaving!" she said.

 

SOMEHOW, I managed to calmly say "Alright, Fine.. Have a great holiday, and I hope to see you again sometime soon. "

 

"Either you start being nice to me or I AM leaving, and you can... Why won't you be nice to me?!"

 

Alot of the same crap ensued for the next 15 minutes, and finally I said something that clicked for her. and she stayed. All through company, dinner, dessert, after dinner company, she was quiet, aloof, and stand-offish toward me. She LIVES by the golden rule, so she says, so I just gave her plenty of room. Each time I tried tenderness, a kiss, a good-natured raz, a joke... she was quiet. At one point I even made HER the center of attention by pointing out one of her painting to my sister! She's really a good painter. I admire her work.

 

At the end of the evening I thought she was just going to sleep over. So I put the kids to bed, and came downstairs to finish cleaning the kitchen.

 

Mid wash of a turkey encrusted fork, she walks over, cell phone in hand..."Should I just assume that I'm calling a cab?":confused:

"What do you mean?" I asked.

"You can't spend even TEN minutes with me!? I gave you your space to put your kids to bed, smoke your cigarette, and do what you had to do. so why didn't you come and sit down on the couch!?!?" "Why didn't you tell me earlier that you didn't want to spend time with me!?" GOD!! You're wasting my time!!"

 

I couldn't even speak... I felt a lump in my throat...I felt like crying...I wanted to find my voice recorder to record the conversation so I could really hear how >I< sounded. I literally siezed up mentally. I couldn't think. My heart hurt, I was sad, and confused.

 

Two years of this is enough. It's over now.

[Guest]

This is a pitiful tale of two people who don't say what they mean, assume the other understands things that aren't understood, and then assume the worst of each other.

 

This would be solved by communicating. You are too abrupt and matter-of-fact, which reads as cold and uncaring. She reacts to the tone and the manner and feels unloved. You remain stolidly practical and icy which only confirms to her that she's not wanted.

 

You are mars to the umpteenth power and she's venus extraordinaire. There's no way you two can make it without lengthy and serious intervention by counselors and willing spirits to change - most of all you who hides behind your frosty wall.

 

You like to think yourself blameless but you needed empathy, not moral authority. Don't ever again take up with someone who isn't as icily practical as yourself or the same sort of disaster will ensue.

[MassiveAtom]

This is a pitiful tale of two people who don't say what they mean, assume the other understands things that aren't understood, and then assume the worst of each other.

 

This would be solved by communicating. You are too abrupt and matter-of-fact, which reads as cold and uncaring. She reacts to the tone and the manner and feels unloved. You remain stolidly practical and icy which only confirms to her that she's not wanted.

 

You are mars to the umpteenth power and she's venus extraordinaire. There's no way you two can make it without lengthy and serious intervention by counselors and willing spirits to change - most of all you who hides behind your frosty wall.

 

You like to think yourself blameless but you needed empathy, not moral authority. Don't ever again take up with someone who isn't as icily practical as yourself or the same sort of disaster will ensue.

 

No I don't like to think of myself as blameless. In fact, I know that my tendency to be practical is HARD to deal with, and that I am "conscious to an affliction" and "honest to a fault." I've so often asked her to go to couples counseling, and have it thrown back in my face that I gave up on that. In fact, I just went back recently to therapy myself, to try and figure out what it is about ME that needs to be honest all the time. Why do I HAVE to look for the meaning in what people say. I tried so hard to love this woman, as she WANTED me to love her, I wrote music for her, which she loved, I spent time with her, which she loved, I even travelled across the country for her, which she loved. I worked my hardest ever on this relationship, but in the end it doesn't really matter at all. You mean that giving her kisses even though she was being aloof is icily practical? Is it REALLY? and that putting my arms around her and saying, "Yes I do want you come with me." Is cold and uncaring? Please tell me how else I could've done it. Please? I DON'T want this to happen again.

[InsanityImpaired]

Why do I HAVE to look for the meaning in what people say.

I think you are talking about a situation when people say one thing, and mean the other. Sarcasm aside, constancy of meaning is required for another person, to be able to make sense. You can't alter the name of the color of the traffic light indefinitely, even though its meaning remains constant.

 

You mean that giving her kisses even though she was being aloof is icily practical?

No, but she may perceive it as such, or as being fake, or as pretending nothing is wrong. As said earlier, the cause of that lies with two people.

 

and that putting my arms around her and saying, "Yes I do want you come with me." Is cold and uncaring?

Same remark.

 

The issues the two of you have, not with each other, but as a result of past experiences, and the problems each of you has, seem to get excabarated in this relationship.

You mentioned therapy, and that is of course a good step to take. But as she, for one reason or the other, does not take therapy, it is battling an uphill struggle. If she can't come to grips with her issues, then it will remain a mystery to you, what is going on in her head; and likewise if you learn what should be working in therapy, but it does not, is hopelessly frustrating for you too.

Likewise, she may have an issue understanding you correctly. You have an innocent phone conversation before you pick up the kids, and she reads in the fact that you cut the conversation short, that you don't want her to come along.

[Walk]

"You don't want me to come with you, you want me to stay here and start cooking... don't you know this is hard for me?" was her reply. Running late now, I saw where I went wrong. ...

 

I'm really not sure what your gf was looking for from you. What's hard for her? Being around your family? Being away from her family? Is thanksgiving a bad time for her because of past experiences or something? Do you know what she meant when she said "don't you know this is hard for me?".

 

I have different thoughts on the matter.

 

A.) She has either had trauma from her past that is relived during the holidays that she was struggling with... parents death, or depression over no family close by, or something really painful for her to cope with...

 

OR

 

B.) You were taking for granted the fact that she was cooking and preparing a meal for however many people. That she felt she was doing you a huge favor by doing all this for your family, and you weren't being sufficently appreciative of the fact. Which would cause her to be upset. But she may not have felt she could tell you she felt used if she had offered to do the cooking in the first place.

 

OR

 

C.) She felt that she should've been the center of your attention. But you were focused on your kids and family... She refused to see the nice gestures as gestures of love becaues all she could see was how you were paying more attention to everyone else and she felt secondary. So she assumed that after your family and kids were out of the picture that you would turn into the attentive, loving bf she had wanted you to act like, but then you still seemed busy. So she blew up... again.

 

Not sure what to suggest... I think she's testing you, and I wouldn't say its a concious decision on her part. But she's pushing you to react a certain way toward her. When crying, screaming and nagging don't work, then she resorts to threats. You put her in check when you told her you were okay with her leaving. But then it automatically registered in her head that it meant you didn't want her there, and everything else is down hill from there.

 

I don't know what to tell you.. I've been sitting here debating what I would do in your situation for the last 20 minutes, and all I know is I wouldn't put up with it. I treat those I love with respect and love, and I expect the same given in return. I'm not above admitting I did something wrong, but I sure as hell won't be yelled at and threatened for trying my hardest to ensure my partner is comfortable and happy. If the person approaches me with an honest complaint, then I am happy to sit down and discuss it, or to apologize and change my behavior, or whatever. But if the person can't do that.. I'm not going to disrespect myself by allowing another person to continually scream and yell when they can't even identify what the problem is. I explain the boundaries, and then they are enforced. I expect my partner to do this too.

 

Last thought... I didn't feel you were mean to your gf. Maybe distracted at times. If she hadn't been so upset, mabye she could've set aside her wants for a minute to understand that your kids and family are important to you.

 

I guess I'd give your gf a chance to explain what she saw yesterday, what your actions meant to her, and most importantly, what she really wanted from you. If she can clarify those things, then maybe you two have something to work from. If all she can say is you weren't "nice", then there's nothing to discuss.

[blind_otter]

I figured I get as much. I've been called worse. I didn't post ALL the background, just too much to post. I'll wait for the more informed responses.

 

I disagree with the others. I felt your email was clear and unemotional. Except for the beginning.

 

Look, the honest truth is that when you seek out therapy, you outgrow people unless they can keep up with the changing aspects of who you are. If they refuse to seek out their own personal growth, there's nothing you can do but cut your losses and seek out a more like-minded individual.

 

JMO, take with a grain of salt.

 

I have been in therapy recently, and many times before, and in all cases except my current R, I've had to end things because the other person was unwilling to address their own issues.

[Grrlish]

MA:

 

Your approach to discussion and issue resolution sounds much like that of an ex-boyfriend of mine, whom I dated for 5 years. We loved each other very much but in the end, our communication styles...our problem resolution styles...were just enough out-of-sync that getting married would have been a huge mistake.

 

I'm not saying that my communication style is/was better than his but his approach was that he believed that he was the best judge of whether or not I was being 'reasonable', whether or not an issue needed to be discussed further, whether or not a conversation was being productive, etc. If he did not agree with something that I said because it might mean that he was 'wrong' or might need to consider changing even something minor about his behavior, he concluded that I was being unreasonable or illogical. Reasonably (heh), after someone dismisses your thoughts, feelings, and opinions time after time, you're going to be hurt or angry or all of the above, and any reasonable person is going to show some emotion. Any sign of what he deemed to be negative emotion or that the discussion was turning into an argument was unacceptable to him. Therefore, there was no reason to continue the conversation. Needless to say, in 5 years he never took any responsibility for any major or minor rift that we had.

 

In regard to:

I believe deeply that the cause of an offense, rests in the offended. The cause of anger is seated within the angry person. I believe there is no rational cause and effect in the emotional realm, only appearances of a semblance of cause and effect.

 

I do not fully agree. It has been a popular attitude for many, many years now that "I am not responsible for how you feel", or some variation thereof. This is B.S. This attitude is the absolute epitome of refusing to accept responsibilty for one's actions.

 

I AM responsible for what I say to a loved one, and how I say it. In the 'emotional realm', I actually MAY BE responsible for CAUSING you to feel sad or angry or hurt.

 

You say that there is no "rational cause and effect in the emotional realm", when in fact, there is very rational and direct cause and effect related to words exchanged between two people...actions...etc. I am flabbergasted that anyone can actually say with a straight face that there is no cause and effect between what one person may say or do to another person, and the second person's reaction.

 

That said:

 

I'm not saying that your girlfriend's behavior, for instance, yesterday sounds reasonable. But what it sounds like is that there is a lot of residual resentment/baggage between you two, in part possibly due to your incompatible communication styles. (Note, I haven't gone back and read any old/previous info about your relationship. I'm just responding to this thread.)

 

In a relationship, one has to picture a Venn diagram. You have issues to deal with, she has issues to deal with, and then there is the overlapping area where your (plural 'your') issues overlap. And the issues within one person's circle are not purely in or out of the overlapping area. As a couple in a loving, caring relationship, we should be willing to work on each other's issues, even if they aren't purely related to us and our relationship. In fact, our issues usually AREN'T purely related to the relationship...because none of us was born yesterday.

 

Example: I'm a confident independent woman, with few insecurities. However, I was royally scr*wed over by a compulsive/pathological liar in my last relationship (not the one I mentioned at the top of this note). Since then, I've been struggling to find it within myself to not constantly be on-guard about being lied to and taken advantage of. My current boyfriend has patiently worked on some of these issues with me. At times, it has been a bit painful for him to do this but he feels that working with me to show me that he is trustworthy can only strengthen our foundation together. And it's working beautifully, for both of us.

 

Heh...it just dawned on me that this is a perfect example of rational and direct cause and effect in the emotional realm. Instead of me working through these issues completely separate from him, by him working on these issues with me, I am not just learning to trust again in general...I am learning to trust HIM.

 

 

To end, to me it sounds as if the two of you are currently incompatible in the emotional realm as well as in the communication realm. I would suggest going to couples counseling with the point of view that you BOTH need to changes some things, or that you two go your separate ways.

[MassiveAtom]

I'm really not sure what your gf was looking for from you. What's hard for her? Being around your family? Being away from her family? Is thanksgiving a bad time for her because of past experiences or something? Do you know what she meant when she said "don't you know this is hard for me?".

I think being alive is hard for her.... not to sound flippant, but really. I think she has trouble just coping with the stress that LIFE gives her.

A.) She has either had trauma from her past that is relived during the holidays that she was struggling with... parents death, or depression over no family close by, or something really painful for her to cope with...

I wish she would've or could have told me if there was....

 

 

B.) You were taking for granted the fact that she was cooking and preparing a meal for however many people.

 

I made the Turkey - 4.5 hours and heavy lifting, and the Pumpkin Swirl cheesecake -1.5 hours.... she made green beans and sweet potatoes.30 minutes start to finish. Set up purposefully so she wouldn't have to face the whole "cooking for MY family" thing. I thought I was being compassionate and insightful. Guess not.

 

C.) She felt that she should've been the center of your attention. But you were focused on your kids and family...

Is it wrong that I focused on my kids? She had ample opportunity to talk with my sister, the kids most times just did their own thing.

She refused to see the nice gestures as gestures of love becaues all she could see was how you were paying more attention to everyone else and she felt secondary. So she assumed that after your family and kids were out of the picture that you would turn into the attentive, loving bf she had wanted you to act like, but then you still seemed busy. So she blew up... again.

You may be right, Walk.... but she seemed at times to genuinely enjoy the little breaks I took with her.

Not sure what to suggest... I think she's testing you, and I wouldn't say its a concious decision on her part. But she's pushing you to react a certain way toward her. When crying, screaming and nagging don't work, then she resorts to threats. You put her in check when you told her you were okay with her leaving. But then it automatically registered in her head that it meant you didn't want her there, and everything else is down hill from there.

 

I don't know what to tell you.. I've been sitting here debating what I would do in your situation for the last 20 minutes, and all I know is I wouldn't put up with it.

I hear what you're saying... I think there is a HUGE disconnect between me trying to be as she wants me, but trying to stay true to myself. I've felt polarized in this situation MANY times before. It seems not to matter what I'm doing when this situation erupts. It's like I'm expected to know exactly what she means and needs at all times. Regardless if she tells me or not.

I treat those I love with respect and love, and I expect the same given in return. I'm not above admitting I did something wrong, but I sure as hell won't be yelled at and threatened for trying my hardest to ensure my partner is comfortable and happy. If the person approaches me with an honest complaint, then I am happy to sit down and discuss it, or to apologize and change my behavior, or whatever. But if the person can't do that.. I'm not going to disrespect myself by allowing another person to continually scream and yell when they can't even identify what the problem is. I explain the boundaries, and then they are enforced. I expect my partner to do this too.

I agree 10000000% with this philosophy.

Last thought... I didn't feel you were mean to your gf. Maybe distracted at times. If she hadn't been so upset, mabye she could've set aside her wants for a minute to understand that your kids and family are important to you.

 

That means alot. I swear the next relationship I'm in, to do all I can to be more empathic, and set aside my own ego, so I don't come off as lecturing or cold and icy. I'll do the best I can.

I guess I'd give your gf a chance to explain what she saw yesterday, what your actions meant to her, and most importantly, what she really wanted from you. If she can clarify those things, then maybe you two have something to work from. If all she can say is you weren't "nice", then there's nothing to discuss.

There aren't any more chances though now. After yesterday, I cant honestly say I want to continue the relationship at all. It's over.

[MassiveAtom]

MA:

I'm not saying that my communication style is/was better than his but his approach was that he believed that he was the best judge of whether or not I was being 'reasonable', whether or not an issue needed to be discussed further, whether or not a conversation was being productive, etc. If he did not agree with something that I said because it might mean that he was 'wrong' or might need to consider changing even something minor about his behavior, he concluded that I was being unreasonable or illogical.

Yes, that is a defintely troublesome situation. However, I only would stop a conversation when >I< knew that >I< was incapable of continuing productively. So as not to harm, hurt or insult the other person. It's gesture of caring.

It has been a popular attitude for many, many years now that "I am not responsible for how you feel", or some variation thereof. This is B.S. This attitude is the absolute epitome of refusing to accept responsibilty for one's actions.

 

I AM responsible for what I say to a loved one, and how I say it. In the 'emotional realm', I actually MAY BE responsible for CAUSING you to feel sad or angry or hurt.

 

You say that there is no "rational cause and effect in the emotional realm", when in fact, there is very rational and direct cause and effect related to words exchanged between two people...actions...etc. I am flabbergasted that anyone can actually say with a straight face that there is no cause and effect between what one person may say or do to another person, and the second person's reaction.

 

I'm not saying that your girlfriend's behavior, for instance, yesterday sounds reasonable. But what it sounds like is that there is a lot of residual resentment/baggage between you two, in part possibly due to your incompatible communication styles. (Note, I haven't gone back and read any old/previous info about your relationship. I'm just responding to this thread.)

Now THAT makes a lot of sense... Words CAN cause pain. I still can't understand though why or how we give up conscious control of our emotional state to another person. MAybe I'm parsing it too deeply...I AM careful of what I say and moreso, HOW I make staements to people who are close to me...until that is, I get to the point where I have to take a break and cool down so I won't lose my cool and say mean and hurtful things...generally about two hours while being berated... sometimes more or less depending...

In a relationship, one has to picture a Venn diagram. You have issues to deal with, she has issues to deal with, and then there is the overlapping area where your (plural 'your') issues overlap. And the issues within one person's circle are not purely in or out of the overlapping area. As a couple in a loving, caring relationship, we should be willing to work on each other's issues, even if they aren't purely related to us and our relationship. In fact, our issues usually AREN'T purely related to the relationship...because none of us was born yesterday.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. And we each should also be wiling to work on our issues by ourselves. It's a two front assault on dysfuction. That's where MY sensibilities are. I can be a confidant, not a therapist.

Example: I'm a confident independent woman, with few insecurities. However, I was royally scr*wed over by a compulsive/pathological liar in my last relationship (not the one I mentioned at the top of this note). Since then, I've been struggling to find it within myself to not constantly be on-guard about being lied to and taken advantage of. My current boyfriend has patiently worked on some of these issues with me. At times, it has been a bit painful for him to do this but he feels that working with me to show me that he is trustworthy can only strengthen our foundation together. And it's working beautifully, for both of us.

 

Heh...it just dawned on me that this is a perfect example of rational and direct cause and effect in the emotional realm. Instead of me working through these issues completely separate from him, by him working on these issues with me, I am not just learning to trust again in general...I am learning to trust HIM.

I can honestly say that I missed THAT opportunity.

 

To end, to me it sounds as if the two of you are currently incompatible in the emotional realm as well as in the communication realm. I would suggest going to couples counseling with the point of view that you BOTH need to changes some things, or that you two go your separate ways.

 

We've gone our separate ways. I hope she finds happiness, me too.

[Ladyjane14]

We've gone our separate ways. I hope she finds happiness, me too.

 

I dunno, MA. I've only just skimmed. (I don't get into the dating section terribly often, but I noticed your screen name on the main page.)

 

Overall though, the girl sounded fairly "needy". I have to wonder if, after all you've been through, you might need a girl who has her "emotional sh*t" together better.

 

As I read through your post on the Thanksgiving Day debacle... she seemed to want to make it all about her. Her expectations seemed inappropriate, as if you were going on some kind of romantic dinner date for two, rather than entertaining family and friends. One would assume that the role of "hostess" would've been more welcome... for both of you actually. She'd have certainly had more FUN if she'd kept her expectations in line with reality.

 

You've already been through alot. And you've done "the work" that comes part and parcel with it.... sorting through your own emotional baggage. Maybe it's time for you to start looking for potential partners who've done the same. Like meeting like.

 

Drama queens are tough to tolerate under the best of circumstances. For a guy who has a pretty good idea of what his own needs are in a relationship, it only stands to reason that he'd identify THAT particular flaw in short order.

[Grrlish]

I still can't understand though why or how we give up conscious control of our emotional state to another person.

 

*sigh* I think that it has something to be with becoming interdependent, and also coming to trust someone with our feelings and our hearts. In order to truly get in touch with someone, we must be willing to become vulnerable. I could continue to use different words to clarify but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say.

 

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. And we each should also be wiling to work on our issues by ourselves. It's a two front assault on dysfuction. That's where MY sensibilities are. I can be a confidant, not a therapist.

 

And I, in turn, completely agree with you. We can help each other only to a certain extent. If we are unable to deal with an issue at least to the point where it is not affecting the relationship, we need to pursue other avenues.

 

I haven't completely resolved my trust issues from my last relationship but they will not have another major impact on my current relationship (I had on 'episode' a couple of weeks ago and it was eye-opening, for me, to say the least) as I continue to work on those trust issues. I will not allow them, or some jerk from my past, to ruin the best thing I've ever had. If I were to find that they were still wreaking havoc on me and my relationship, I'd be off to a therapist in a SECOND. Because my peace of mind is important and HE and his happiness, and his happiness with ME, is very important to me.

 

We've gone our separate ways. I hope she finds happiness, me too.

 

I'm sorry, MA. You'll find someone with whom communication is not such a struggle.

[MassiveAtom]

I dunno, MA. I've only just skimmed. (I don't get into the dating section terribly often, but I noticed your screen name on the main page.)

 

Overall though, the girl sounded fairly "needy". I have to wonder if, after all you've been through, you might need a girl who has her "emotional sh*t" together better.

 

As I read through your post on the Thanksgiving Day debacle... she seemed to want to make it all about her. Her expectations seemed inappropriate, as if you were going on some kind of romantic dinner date for two, rather than entertaining family and friends. One would assume that the role of "hostess" would've been more welcome... for both of you actually. She'd have certainly had more FUN if she'd kept her expectations in line with reality.

 

You've already been through alot. And you've done "the work" that comes part and parcel with it.... sorting through your own emotional baggage. Maybe it's time for you to start looking for potential partners who've done the same. Like meeting like.

 

Drama queens are tough to tolerate under the best of circumstances. For a guy who has a pretty good idea of what his own needs are in a relationship, it only stands to reason that he'd identify THAT particular flaw in short order.

 

Ah, LadyJane...I am truly fortunate to have your reponse.