MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Hi all, No, I haven't been around much lately. But here I am again looking for some input. Without a whole lot of arduous background, I realize that a solid answer to the larger problem will not be easy to acheive. I ask only for a review of the following email conversation to assess the communication styles shown therein. If at all possible, a characterization of the dysfunctional elements would be helpful as well... thanks! MA -----Original Message----- From: [boyfriend] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:21 AM To: [girlfriend] Subject: as I said I would... Hi [girfriend], Okay, I said I would email you today.... As far as I can tell, we broke up last night. Is that true? [boyfriend] ----- [girlfriend]wrote: Hi [boyfriend] As I understood, you said you'd like me to solve any issues you think > i< have, regarding us, on my own. That is not how i can, or will, handle it. So I'm not clear... were you saying that either I do it that way, or we're done? [girlfriend] ----- From: [boyfriend] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:24 AM To: [girlfriend] Subject: Re: as I said I would... Please answer the question I asked you so we can proceed with this conversation in an orderly fashion. [boyfriend] ----- [girlfriend] wrote: Please don't be such a hard*ss, so we can proceed in a productive fashion. I did answer. "I'm not clear." ----- [boyfriend wrote] [girlfriend] You're not clear that we broke up last night. I'm concluding that you need my response to your last question in order to BE clear. I will respond in the next few lines. Your last email was unfortunate, and frankly, rather offensive.* Here is my response: If you were to have listened for more than two sentences, you would have heard the complete thought. The issues each of us bring to the relationship are each our own. We are EACH individually responsible for doing the personal work needed to cope with, reconcile, and accept or change those issues that we see are incompatible in this relationship. It is good to discuss these issues between the two parties, given the discussion can at all times be productive and patient. Communication styles have a profound effect on that outcome. I believe deeply that the cause of an offense, rests in the offended. The cause of anger is seated within the angry person. I believe there is no rational cause and effect in the emotional realm, only appearances of a semblance of cause and effect. I believe that you evade conscious confrontation, by donning the mask of anger and double-speak. I've seen ample evidence of that while knowing you. I don't hate you for it. But I can't help you with it. Last night was a prime example.... You said that one of the ways you changed was that you were okay with graciously and gracefully ending a conversation. When the time came to do that exact thing, you refused. Then as you were ending the conversation, you said something to the effect that we're through and you want some other relationship that fits better with your concept of how it SHOULD work. And now you say you're not clear. It is impossible for me to have ANY position of stability from which to assist you in dealing with or confronting the issues you bring to this relationship, in this environment. Which is why I DO in fact believe that you must deal with them with a professional because I am unskilled, and unqualified to help you in this matter. Was I saying do it that way or we're done? No. I never said anything like that. that was your statement * [boyfriend] -----end What say you all?
TYASAFAHICSI Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 a·nal-re·ten·tive (ā'nəl-rĭ-tĕn'tĭv) adj. Psychology. Indicating personality traits, such as meticulousness, avarice, and obstinacy, originating in habits, attitudes, or values associated with infantile pleasure in retention of feces.
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 No offense meant but since you did post word for word emails.. You sound like a bit of a dick.. Feel fortunate that she didn't tell you to eff off after the second email. Personally you should've used the phone or in person to have talked to her..
melodymatters Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah. 2nd that. I got annoyed and wanted to smack him just READING that letter !
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 I figured I get as much. I've been called worse. I didn't post ALL the background, just too much to post. I'll wait for the more informed responses.
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 I figured I get as much. I've been called worse. I didn't post ALL the background, just too much to post. I'll wait for the more informed responses. No background needed.. your tone and hers are all that is needed.. Her tone is very calm and non-demeaning and yours is demeaning and dismissive of her feelings..hence the dick comment
Fun2BMe Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 You must be related to my bf. So why is it that she has to talk to a therapist and can't come to you with her problems? Why is it that you yourself weren't clear if you had broken up since you had to ask her, but when she tells you she's not clear if you are you bite her head off? Dam, I feel sorry for that girl and wish I could give her a hug. It's like you set up a trap, she naturally fell into it and you bite her head off.
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 No background needed.. your tone and hers are all that is needed.. Her tone is very calm and non-demeaning and yours is demeaning and dismissive of her feelings..hence the dick comment How do you know her tone was anything? Can you hear her? As she got off the phone last night and in every argument, she was literally screaming at me. Oh well, you are entitled to your perspective.
BabyPhoenix Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Why are you continuing in this relationship if it is plagued with such constant antagonism, and frayed communication?
InsanityImpaired Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 No background needed.. your tone and hers are all that is needed.. I disagree. More is needed. Her tone is very calm and non-demeaning and yours is demeaning and dismissive of her feelings..hence the dick comment Responding calmy does not necessarily mean that someone is not lying, twisting facts, making up facts, responding in a familiar, possibly passive aggressive way. To get to know that, one has to carefully look at the relationship dynamics. These are emails, and thus the writing of the words may have been carefully considered (or not) by both people. And not everyone is equally skilled at getting under another person's skin, by use of mere words. Perhaps she is more skilled in that department than he. To assume, that she is necessarily the innocent party is a stretch, without considering the background.
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 How do you know her tone was anything? Can you hear her? As she got off the phone last night and in every argument, she was literally screaming at me. Oh well, you are entitled to your perspective. I gave you a fly on the wall perspective of your emails that you posted.. You are too close to see what I see... Which is why you asked for advice.. You don't have to take it.. but I'm not the only one posting on your thread that thinks the way I do about your emails. Maybe you should step back and gain some perspective as to what your place in the breakup really is.. that might help you
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 You must be related to my bf. So why is it that she has to talk to a therapist and can't come to you with her problems? We've tried that. She's come to me MANY times, but her problems are Always about me. I mean we have a great relationship otherwise just when she gets her mind set that theres a problem, it's crazy! I used to talk with her for hours about the same thing, over and over, just to listen you know. Now, she can be so mean about so many things, all I can do is try to be as meticulous as I can so I don't lose my mind trying to keep up with her. I ask her if she's got all these problems with me, then why is she with me? Why is it that you yourself weren't clear if you had broken up since you had to ask her, but when she tells you she's not clear if you are you bite her head off? hmmm.... good point. I should take a look at why I don't see what I said as biting her head off. It seems innocuous and factual to me. I was unclear because I didn't think I COULD believe what she'd said. I'm trying to put aside two years of her vague statements and veiled threats. last night was the closest thing I've heard to a clear statement in a LONG time. Dam, I feel sorry for that girl and wish I could give her a hug. It's like you set up a trap, she naturally fell into it and you bite her head off. Boy you really don't know her do you? My response was a extension from last night. But that's an interesting comment.... I set a trap....I feel she does that to me.... Damn....maybe this relationship is screwing me up..... Thanks fun. You're the first to make some sense.
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 Why are you continuing in this relationship if it is plagued with such constant antagonism, and frayed communication? THERE is the $50,000.00 question. ugh.
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 I disagree. More is needed. Responding calmy does not necessarily mean that someone is not lying, twisting facts, making up facts, responding in a familiar, possibly passive aggressive way. To get to know that, one has to carefully look at the relationship dynamics. These are emails, and thus the writing of the words may have been carefully considered (or not) by both people. And not everyone is equally skilled at getting under another person's skin, by use of mere words. Perhaps she is more skilled in that department than he. To assume, that she is necessarily the innocent party is a stretch, without considering the background. VERY WELL Said!!!!!
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 To assume, that she is necessarily the innocent party is a stretch, without considering the background. The only way to hear both sides of an issue would be if both people were posting.. Since we will only get his side of the story then it can be assumed from your statement about considering the background that determining an innocent or guilty party is next to impossible in this forum. He asked for advice about the emails he posted.. I gave him advice What say you all? Were his exact words Just because he didn't like the what I had to say is no reason to discount it as not accurate advice
BabyPhoenix Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 THERE is the $50,000.00 question. ugh. I think this is much more relevant than the "winner" of the e-mail wars. So, why are you with her?
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Why didn't you call her of do a face to face communication with her ? Email is a pretty impersonal method to talk about relationship issues
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 He asked for advice about the emails he posted.. I gave him advice Yes I did AC, and honestly, I found some value in your post. If I remember correctly, you have posted to my threads before, and I yours.. and there was a level of familiarity between us. The way you came back this time, I figured you forgot who I was. and just to clarify, I asked for a characterization of the communcations... not really advice. But thanks for responding... it got me thinking.. I have become a little set in my ways lately.... maybe the walls are still up so long after the divorce. maybe different than before.... MA
Art_Critic Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 But thanks for responding... it got me thinking.. I have become a little set in my ways lately.... maybe the walls are still up so long after the divorce. No trying to bust your chops.. sorry I came across that way.. I think when someone sends an email about a problem that should be talked about on the phone or in a face to face then the tone for the reply is already set. Using email helped further the ping pong of tone from you to her.. if she had been able to hear your voice then she migh have realized you were not being aggressive and vice versa.. Sometimes keeping the walls up after a divorce is normal.. and it does take a special person for those walls to come down.. Is she that person ?
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 I think this is much more relevant than the "winner" of the e-mail wars. So, why are you with her? In good times the rapport we have is awesome! She's very smart and warm - in good times she's pretty funny! She's pretty. She has a dark side that often coincides with mine perfectly. She's likes fairness... when things are good She rocks my socks in the sack she's capable of supporting herself she has an independent spirit.. There's a healthy "drama triangle" in addition to the bad one. She's adventurous. She like's to tell me stuff - I loathe when people have NOTHING to say. I could go on. But then there is this intermittent communication thing....It's like I can't say anything... I tell her the truth..she gets angry...I tell her if I said something else, I'd be lying. And I don't want to settle a difference by lying just to placate her....She screams that I'm a harda$$. It like a rollercoaster stuck in an infinite loop. Circular REALLY good, the just friggin AWFUL! I probably stay with her because in the bad times I can see through to the good times, and that helps me hold on. I'm hemorrhaging hope now though...
Fun2BMe Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 I ask her if she's got all these problems with me, then why is she with me? Maybe because she loves you. By you not validating her feelings, it drives her to be the way she is, with the veiled threats and all. She might feel you don't care if you don't want her to talk to you about your problems even if you are tired of hearing about them. Maybe a more constructive listening method with rules or a certain time to discuss them would be helpful instead of kicking her to the curb to take care of them on her own with a therapist.
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 Why didn't you call her of do a face to face communication with her ? Email is a pretty impersonal method to talk about relationship issues Yeah, I know, but when I try to talk to her....I get all confused about what her intention REALLY are you know? It's like she say something, but her tone of voice will be off... Plus I'm at work, so's she... and I said I'd email her... maybe a little more tolerance on my part would help....Essentially I just want to be clear since as BP put it the communication is so often "Frayed"
BabyPhoenix Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 ....It's like I can't say anything... I tell her the truth..she gets angry...I tell her if I said something else, I'd be lying. And I don't want to settle a difference by lying just to placate her....She screams that I'm a harda$$. It like a rollercoaster stuck in an infinite loop. Circular REALLY good, the just friggin AWFUL! How long has this been going on? Do you think that there is a chance - through therapy, or other means - that you might as a couple be able to overcome this cycle?
Author MassiveAtom Posted November 21, 2006 Author Posted November 21, 2006 Maybe because she loves you. By you not validating her feelings, it drives her to be the way she is, with the veiled threats and all. She's still got a choice to behave however she chooses right? Has she given me THAT much control over her just so she can feel loved?! ick! She might feel you don't care if you don't want her to talk to you about your problems even if you are tired of hearing about them. Last night's conversation lasted four hours. three of which I was consciously listening actively. I lost my temper with her in the last half hour or so. But just before I did, I said "[girlfriend] I am losing my temper and I know I can't continue this conversation productively right now, I'd appreciate being allowed some downtime. Can I call you tomorrow?" She screamed at me. eventually I lost my temper and told her I'd email her in the morning... and she said something to the effect of...(see Original post) Maybe a more constructive listening method with rules or a certain time to discuss them would be helpful instead of kicking her to the curb to take care of them on her own with a therapist. I've suggested rules that I learned from therapy and keep looking for new things to do....She responds in that sort of dismissive, disrespectful way..you know, like "OOOOohhh, HEre you go with your RULES and Everything it's always what YOU want...what YOU say." which really isn't the case. they're just suggestions to try to communicate better.
InsanityImpaired Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Since we will only get his side of the story then it can be assumed from your statement about considering the background that determining an innocent or guilty party is next to impossible in this forum. No. But if a poster would write in a post that he voted for Kerry in the Presidential elections and lives in Texas, does not justify the assumption that Kerry won Texas in the Presidential election either, if we were to judge the facts solely from that post. And something similar seems to be happening in this thread. People judge solely on the basis of the written content of the emails. But not on the implicit content of these emails. And just because he may not write as well as she, does not prove anything more than that. It does not necessarily tell us that she is blameless in the matter. It does show that there seem to be communication issues, but it does not show who and what the cause(s) is (/are). It might be frustration on his part, poor communication skills, and a few other things. Likewise her behavior could be characterised in a few different ways, based on the emails. It is just a matter of which assumptions we want to make. Each interpretation leads to a different set of problems that characterise this relationship. And that has been shown in this thread too. In this form, this will generate a billion assumptions on who, what and how. You can't generate any definitive statements this way. Only OP knows what may and may not be applicable. Hopefully he can find a way to resolve the issues that do exist.
Recommended Posts