sarme Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 If there is anyone out there who could explain to me why men fall in love with the women in extra marital affairs and make so many captivating promises assuring that what they have with their wives is no longer good, yet when it's time to make the move they cannot leave their wives? Why would anyone stay with somoene that makes them unhappy. Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman?
THX2000 Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 If there is anyone out there who could explain to me why men fall in love with the women in extra marital affairs and make so many captivating promises assuring that what they have with their wives is no longer good, yet when it's time to make the move they cannot leave their wives? Why would anyone stay with somoene that makes them unhappy. Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman? It's pretty simple really. Remember in high school when a guy would say or do absolutely anything to get into your pants? Some guys never grow up and will continue to do that despite being married. Most OW cannot grasp they fact that these OM will lie to them because their situation is "unique" or "special" and sadly in most cases it's all just smoke and mirrors. It doesn't mean it's like that in all cases but it's pretty much the norm from what I have seen.
LucreziaBorgia Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 1. Why would anyone stay with somoene that makes them unhappy. 2. Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman? (I posted this to a similar question in another thread, I'll just copy parts of it here) They don't have romantic love for a time after the affair but what they do have: 1. Security 2. Comfort 3. Family legacy 4. Companionship for life 5. Home 6. Vacations 7. Holidays 8. Parenting partners, raising children together 9. A warm body to cuddle next to in bed 10. Family connection 11. Family events 12. Chance at reconcilation ... and so on. A MM will weigh what he does have against what he doesn't and find the situation tolerable enough to fight for and stay with. H and W drift away from romantic bonds and more toward family bonds. Romantic love comes and goes regardless of whether or not affairs happen, but all the other stuff is of a more permanent and enduring nature, which is generally enough to make MM stay married even when an affair does happen. Romantic love often isn't enough in and of itself to build a life around - which is why romantic affairs end and marriages endure. Usually, anyway. When/If the marriage ends, I expect all the above is much harder to let go of than the romantic part. Yes, there can be happiness after reconciliation and rebuilding. Happiness is more than what MM finds in an affair. The "in love" feeling the MM has for the OW fades with time and "no contact" as he rededicates himself to working on and rebuilding the marriage. It isn't easy for him to let go of that "in love" feeling he has for the OW. It takes time, lots of time to come out of that. But when it comes right down to it, that "in love" feeling weighs against the marriage and falls short. It is the comfort and security of a life built together with someone that he goes back to - a life that can be rebuilt, and romantic love/sex can be slowly worked back into the picture as he weans off the feelings he had for the OW.
Ripples Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 I'd even go so far as to say that sometimes, if the A is over, it can, at least initially, increase romantic love within the marriage.
Guest Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 First of all, don't assume that "what they have with their wives is no longer good". Maybe they've been married a long time, marriages go through highs and lows, maybe you and he got started during a rough patch? It happens, no marriage is perfect all of the time for decades. "Why would anyone stay with someone that makes them unhappy." They wouldn't. Their wives don't make them unhappy, he's just saying that to get what he wants (sex or attention) from you. Men who are truly unhappy in their marriages get divorced. "Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman?" Yes, there can be happiness in a marriage after an affair, it happens everyday. You are also making yet another assumption that the MM was in love with the OW. He may have SAID that, but obviously he didn't MEAN it. If he was truly in love with OW that's where he'd be, with her. MM lie, they tell you they love you because that's what you need to hear to give them what they want. The poster who said that some MM never grow up nailed it. They are essentially selfish and will do and say what they want to get what they want, which usually is a wife and a mistress, until one of them (the wife or mistress), demands they grow up and make a choice. Then after some soul searching and therapy, some of these men realize just how selfish they were and how they can't have everything they want. Boo-hoo.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Your questions interests me. "Can there be happiness in a M if he is still involved with OW?" And why would someone stay with someone who makes them unhappy. Hmmm... First of all... someone probably isn't making him unhappy (unless she is lying and cheating). He is unhappy with himself and is using others to find his own happiness. He loves the sex and romantic love, but that excitement exists because of the secrecy and deception. He loves the power that he has over other peoples lives. And NO, happiness can not be rebuilt if he is seeing another woman, though he wants everyone to believe that "happiness" only exist in his reality. Are you happy? Is/would the wife be happy if she new he was still/seeing the OW. Ofcourse not. The only happiness he knows is his own and the W and OW are merely pawns, and guess what, HE is still not happy! Luckily though, he has 2 partners in his misery now!
BenThereDunThat Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Your questions interests me. "Can there be happiness in a M if he is still involved with OW?" And why would someone stay with someone who makes them unhappy. Hmmm... First of all... someone probably isn't making him unhappy (unless she is lying and cheating). He is unhappy with himself and is using others to find his own happiness. He loves the sex and romantic love, but that excitement exists because of the secrecy and deception. He loves the power that he has over other peoples lives. And NO, happiness can not be rebuilt if he is seeing another woman, though he wants everyone to believe that "happiness" only exist in his reality. Are you happy? Is/would the wife be happy if she new he was still/seeing the OW. Ofcourse not. The only happiness he knows is his own and the W and OW are merely pawns, and guess what, HE is still not happy! Luckily though, he has 2 partners in his misery now! Love this post!! This is exactly what I found to be true in my MM experience.
herenow Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 In most cases the affair is not about the OW as much as it's about the MM and his needs. In my never ending quest to torture myself with knowledge about affairs, I have learned that there are many reasons that MM have affairs and very few are about love. Most of the time the MM is looking for something that he is missing either in the marriage or in himself. The OW in most cases could be anyone and although the MM and or the OW may feel at the time that it's love, what he is really feeling is how the affair makes him feel about himself and not how the OW makes him feel. Men in affairs will say what ever it takes to keep the affair going. If they are lying to their wife, they are probably lying to the OW as well. The OW has no way to tell if the MM is being truthful because their relationship is a secret and all she has is what he tells her. Just because a MM tells an OW he is unhappy, doesn't mean that he is. As far as happiness in a marriage after an affair, it can only happen if the problems that caused the affair in the first place are fixed.
NoIDidn't Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 I second that, herenow. In my sitch, I refused to take the blame for the A. Still don't. It was his CHOICE. Sure, there were problems in the M, but they were common and fixable. MM/MW in As only complicate the issues and make reconciliation more difficult, but still doable. So, yes, if the issues that the MP used to justify an A are fixable (and they weren't just being unreasonable), the M can actually be happier than its ever been.
Guest Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 My xMM has been married for 30 years, has three grown sons and obviously and admittedly gets so much out of his intact family--all of the items on the list that you gave, except the last one. The last one, the chance to reconcile and have romantic love reappear, he has totally ruled out. For him, there is no "working on" the marriage. They simply do not have romantic love or sexual passion and never will. He feels she is not capable of it. But he is 100% committed to staying in the marriage and nothing will shake him from that. So I guess he is pretty much the standard cake eater. For me, during my A a reluctant cake eater, I am a younger flip side version of him. I've been married 15 years, have a lot of good in my marriage (great kids and a strong connection with my DH as well as our shared history) but there is very little sex and what there is is not good (this has always been true, it is not a recent development). Still, we have always had much more romance and classic romantic love than xMM and his wife. The difference, and I do believe many men and women follow this stereotype, is that I am not willing to be married forever to someone with no sex EVEN WITH ALL THE GOOD IN THE MARRIAGE AND MY KIDS. While he is willing to persist getting his love/sex on the side while preserving his image to his family/community. I really do believe most men and most women who are in this situation divide down similar lines. Men in a loveless/sexless M will stay regardless.
jerseyblue29eyes Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 (I posted this to a similar question in another thread, I'll just copy parts of it here) They don't have romantic love for a time after the affair but what they do have: 1. Security 2. Comfort 3. Family legacy 4. Companionship for life 5. Home 6. Vacations 7. Holidays 8. Parenting partners, raising children together 9. A warm body to cuddle next to in bed 10. Family connection 11. Family events 12. Chance at reconcilation ... and so on. A MM will weigh what he does have against what he doesn't and find the situation tolerable enough to fight for and stay with. H and W drift away from romantic bonds and more toward family bonds. Romantic love comes and goes regardless of whether or not affairs happen, but all the other stuff is of a more permanent and enduring nature, which is generally enough to make MM stay married even when an affair does happen. Romantic love often isn't enough in and of itself to build a life around - which is why romantic affairs end and marriages endure. Usually, anyway. When/If the marriage ends, I expect all the above is much harder to let go of than the romantic part. Yes, there can be happiness after reconciliation and rebuilding. Happiness is more than what MM finds in an affair. The "in love" feeling the MM has for the OW fades with time and "no contact" as he rededicates himself to working on and rebuilding the marriage. It isn't easy for him to let go of that "in love" feeling he has for the OW. It takes time, lots of time to come out of that. But when it comes right down to it, that "in love" feeling weighs against the marriage and falls short. It is the comfort and security of a life built together with someone that he goes back to - a life that can be rebuilt, and romantic love/sex can be slowly worked back into the picture as he weans off the feelings he had for the OW. Everything you wrote makes sense to me and my situation. I prayed for an answer today and now I know the answers to most of my Why questions. Thank you.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 The question, if I read it right, was can there be happiness in the M if the MM is still involved with the OW? (Now THAT'S a no brainer!)
Guest Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Along with my other generalizations, that one reason (my opinion) that men are resigned to being in less than satisfying marriages is that they are better able to compartmentalize and be happy in the various compartments. My xMM was genuinely thrilled and happy to have both of us in his life in our separate roles (he wasn't a true cake man in that he would have preferred to have the two needs--security/family vs. sex/love--filled by the same person, but since those needs were not met by his wife, he was resigned to having cake on the side). More generalizations: I think I am like a lot of women in that when I started the A, my marriage deteriorated significantly. I couldn't love both of them and enjoy them in their different boxes. Loving xMM made me turn away from DH. I am back (A has been over for several months) and I am happy to be back but I am grappling with the sex problem. I get overwhelmed wondering how it will all work out.
Ripples Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 The question, if I read it right, was can there be happiness in the M if the MM is still involved with the OW? (Now THAT'S a no brainer!) Oh, I thought the question was in the context of after the affair. If there is anyone out there who could explain to me why men fall in love with the women in extra marital affairs and make so many captivating promises assuring that what they have with their wives is no longer good, yet when it's time to make the move they cannot leave their wives? Why would anyone stay with somoene that makes them unhappy. Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman?
TheDiva Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 In most cases the affair is not about the OW as much as it's about the MM and his needs. In my never ending quest to torture myself with knowledge about affairs, I have learned that there are many reasons that MM have affairs and very few are about love. Most of the time the MM is looking for something that he is missing either in the marriage or in himself. The OW in most cases could be anyone and although the MM and or the OW may feel at the time that it's love, what he is really feeling is how the affair makes him feel about himself and not how the OW makes him feel. Men in affairs will say what ever it takes to keep the affair going. If they are lying to their wife, they are probably lying to the OW as well. The OW has no way to tell if the MM is being truthful because their relationship is a secret and all she has is what he tells her. Just because a MM tells an OW he is unhappy, doesn't mean that he is. As far as happiness in a marriage after an affair, it can only happen if the problems that caused the affair in the first place are fixed. MM being unhappy/ missing something, really is the key to the A. Rarely is it the actual marriage that is "unhappy" so to speak. It is the Married Partners unhappiness in themselves that fuels the A. Deep down a MM can know that the marriage is not exactly unhappy. Let's face it, even the most happy marriage can have an A in the mix. But still MM has to make OW believe that his marriage is the most unfullfilling, unhappy marriage there is. Rewritting marital history, believing his own lies, but still be unable to leave, to me at least, support this. Let's face it, woman take care of the children more than men, so for those that 'stay for the kids' are really just throwing more gas on the "I am so unhappy in marriage" fire. How is it "for the kids" if he has to steal time away from the little ones to see his OW? How many BS posts have we seen say... I didn't know anything was wrong.... I thought our marriage was good until..... I started to get suspicious....... ETC.... Point is, reading between the lines, the BS didn't know the marriage was in trouble until the suspicious behaviors showed up. MM already being neck deep in an affair. Maybe he communicated to the W that something was missing or maybe not. A marriage can be happy, before, during and after an affair. It just depends on the circumstances and individuals involved. There are exceptions to every 'rule', but commonly it is a MM engaging and hurting a real woman with his fantasy world. A world that he, thinking in his head, would make him happy and fullfilled if brought to reality. But honestly how is adding another person that will most likely not be happy about the circumstances going to make the situation happier? How many woman would be brought down when they are told they are someones 'happiness', someones 'soul mate'? Even though we all know happiness comes from SELF-ESTEEM..from inside our ownselves, Not from our H's, W's, OW, OM..... we all want to believe we have the power to make other people truly happy. More ramblings fromTheDiva that make no sense I think I need more coffee....
IfWishesWereHorses Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Your right, I saw involved, the question was inlove. I must be dislexic!
Ripples Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Er, I think we both are right, it's not terribly clear. At least, to me.
TheDiva Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 If there is anyone out there who could explain to me why men fall in love with the women in extra marital affairs and make so many captivating promises assuring that what they have with their wives is no longer good, yet when it's time to make the move they cannot leave their wives? Why would anyone stay with somoene that makes them unhappy. Can there be happiness again in marriage after an affair if one is still inlove with the other woman? In light of misinterpreting the OP, let me try again. Short and sweet. 1. MM lie, if action don't match words, chances are it is a big fat lie. 2. There are many reasons to stay in unhappy marriages, commonly though the marriage is not as unhappy as he would have you believe. 3. I believe we can love many people at the same time. You may have personal experience with this. Do you still have love buried in your heart for you 'first love'? How about the man that took your virginity maybe? Maybe I am just completely off base, but is it possible that maybe as a collective human race we are confused about what 'in love' really is? IMHO This 'IN-LOVE' feeling eventually fades because it is based on what makes your heart race. IE: lust,excitement, newness etc. It is replaced by a deeper kind of love, that is more powerful then the "in-love feeling. Just not as exciting. For the record I am not speaking of any specific kind of relationship. I think it's possible to still be in love with the OW, and stay in a marriage. I also think the opposite is true. (can be in love with the W even while in an A.) Common sense says that wouldn't be possible though. If the OW has laid her heart on the line and MM has stomped it into dust by not matching actions to words, chances are he is lying about his love for OW. When given the choice between between W or OW, MM normally go back to the wife. So who does he really love, who knows? If we could answer that, none of us would be here... side note to MM that posted a while back, if you are still reading, your input would be wonderful!
Guest Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Hi, Regarding your posts, if the affair is ALWAYS about the MM/MW (what he/she is missing rather than what is missing in the M), what about where the spouse cuts off the other spouse sexually or their sex life dwindles to nothing? That does happen, it has happened in my own marriage (I'm a MW and former MOW). (BTW, that doesn't mean I am inclined to believe the majority of MMs who say they haven't had sex with their spouse in decades...but it is more than possible that the sex/affection are not meeting the person's needs...and you don't have to be male for that to be true.) If the spouse is not giving you enough sex or affection to meet a reasonable person's need for the same, then how is it about YOU vs. the relationship? My DH has not initiated sex in 15 years. We have gone almost years with no sex. How is that about what I am missing in myself and not about what is missing from the relationship?
IfWishesWereHorses Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 That completely depends. If your relationship with the OP is based simply on the needs that YOU are not having met in your M, and that OP isn't getting all of their needs met (your attention, sex whenever they want it, your company on holidays and special days, nights with you whenever they please) then both relationships are suffering because of YOUR needs. Is that making any sense? If OM and H both are giving up for your needs then that is about you. If the M isn't working then you certainly have a choice, by not choosing though, you are you are expecting other lives to revolve around Your needs. Certainly sex with an OP isn't going to make your M (relationship) any better! One thing that I haven't seen much of on here and I haven't been here for a long time, is a single man's view who is in an A with a married woman. Do they have the same feelings expressed by most single OW on the list? I've wondered about that in trying to figure all of this out. Rereading this, I hope that I don't sound like a condone withholding sex or affection in a M, I just believe in taking responsibility for the situation that you are in, not expecting someone else to sacrifice to make things right for you.
herenow Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Hi, Regarding your posts, if the affair is ALWAYS about the MM/MW (what he/she is missing rather than what is missing in the M), what about where the spouse cuts off the other spouse sexually or their sex life dwindles to nothing? That does happen, it has happened in my own marriage (I'm a MW and former MOW). (BTW, that doesn't mean I am inclined to believe the majority of MMs who say they haven't had sex with their spouse in decades...but it is more than possible that the sex/affection are not meeting the person's needs...and you don't have to be male for that to be true.) If the spouse is not giving you enough sex or affection to meet a reasonable person's need for the same, then how is it about YOU vs. the relationship? My DH has not initiated sex in 15 years. We have gone almost years with no sex. How is that about what I am missing in myself and not about what is missing from the relationship? When there is a problem in the marriage no matter what it is, it should be addressed before having sex with another person. Let's take sex as an example. Why can't the H or W say "I need to have sex and I want to have it with you, but if I don't I'm thinking of having an affair"? I bet that would shock some reality into the marriage and at least open up the lines of communication. It's called nipping it in the bud. Unless of course you don't want to have sex with your spouse in which case there are bigger problems.
TheDiva Posted November 21, 2006 Posted November 21, 2006 Hi, Regarding your posts, if the affair is ALWAYS about the MM/MW (what he/she is missing rather than what is missing in the M), what about where the spouse cuts off the other spouse sexually or their sex life dwindles to nothing? That does happen, it has happened in my own marriage (I'm a MW and former MOW). (BTW, that doesn't mean I am inclined to believe the majority of MMs who say they haven't had sex with their spouse in decades...but it is more than possible that the sex/affection are not meeting the person's needs...and you don't have to be male for that to be true.) If the spouse is not giving you enough sex or affection to meet a reasonable person's need for the same, then how is it about YOU vs. the relationship? My DH has not initiated sex in 15 years. We have gone almost years with no sex. How is that about what I am missing in myself and not about what is missing from the relationship? Did I hazard a guess that it is always about whats missing inside? I don't remember thinking that but maybe it did come out that way. I really feel for sexless marriages, I regularly "rape" my own H, not that he minds really.. But I take charge in letting him know I need, and so far I don't know what it is like to be turned away. I feel for those as well that are regularly pushed away by their partner. But I also think DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. People will regularly believe, esp. men, that if nothing is said and all seems well then everything is just fine. But why does he have to initiate? Don't you ever try to initiate? Why did you have to go outside the marriage? If sexual relations are a deal-breaker for you then what is wrong with stating that to him? Why not "shout" until you're heard? Tell him very bluntly that while you may be happy with everything else in the M, you want more sex/intimacy. If he is completely unwilling then is it okay to go find an F buddy? That would not be an affair if he agreed. Refusal to compromise would warrent a divorce. Why have to include an outside person? What is stopping you from confronting your H with I-NEED-SEX-IN-OUR-MARRIAGE- OR-I-AM-GONE?
Author sarme Posted November 22, 2006 Author Posted November 22, 2006 Wow thanks to everyone's controbuting thoughts this thread took a life of it's own. One of the comments that stood out was what if the person having the affair told their partner's they were contemplating an affair that would really hit home. While on paper it may seem like a good idea I just don't think this applies to all affairs. While some adulturers are serial adulteres some are simply not. Some really did fall in love with someone in the most unexpected way. I think that allowing oneself to fall in love with someone else while in a relationship is indeed a choice, I don't think that a great number planned it in a premeditated way. This is what I am trying to understand, is it really something that happens consciously or not? Anther point that stood out was the one that stated that an affair offers everything that they do not get at home, ie. fulfilling the missing parts while aliviating what seems to be missing from home. Another thing is the idea that the person having the affair feels an addiction to the affair itself and it represents things about themselves and not so much the person they "fall in love with" That one really left me thinking that perhaps there is some real truth to that. And that is why relationships that start off as affairs seldom work out. But what if love just really is like that, what if someone can be in the wrong partnership but find the person that is right for them in the most horrible way possible? There is so much pain to be had for everyone involved I just don't see how anyone would willingly want to engage in a third party affair? Even ther perpotrator feels so much pain, at least those with a heart. And spare me the part about "well if he had a heart he would not cheat" We are all human and born to make mistakes, born to mess up and cause pain onto ourselves and others. I am trying to understand the reason why men in particular go back to their wives even though they are still in love with the OW and not with their W. I have read on here many posts of men who chose to stay in their marriage or partnership and live in misery to avoid the whole ordeal of a divorce. It amazes me how many people would rather stay in an unhappy union over mobilizing themselves for a big change and of course some suffering. It is never easy to start again. Anyway sorry for my scattered thoughts. It's just too complex to understand really no matter how much pop-psyhcology we try to use to figure it out. I think that is what my conclusion is.
Guest Posted November 22, 2006 Posted November 22, 2006 I'm the guest who got some people asking questions above-- Eight months before I started the affair, I absolutely told my H that I needed sex and desire and would have an affair if I didn't get it. In fact, I told him that every day for a week just to make sure it sank in. During the ensuing eight months, nothing happened. He said we should seek counseling, I agreed. He didn't do anything about it. I was so sick of "owning" the relationship, "owning" our sex life that I finally let go and did nothing. I was sick and tired of it being my job and my job only. For whomever asked why I never initiated, I DID. OF COURSE. But don't you think you might question it if you one day realized he had NEVER initiated your entire M? And just because you realized, and warned him about it (which I did, as stated above), doesn't mean that I was ANYwhere near getting a divorce with two young children when he didn't "wake up." The marriage (it still sounds crazy to me even now!) was good, nice emotional connection, great friends, great extended family, great kids--are you telling me you would have had the strength to just chuck it all then and there because he never initiated sex??! I'm STILL not there (A is over for five months) and the situation has STILL not improved. I absolutely agree in principle that one should deal with the problems in one's M before going elsewhere (just for the record, we are now seeing a bona fide sex therapist, which has so far not produced any miracles). But sometimes that is not possible. Life is more complicated than that. I'm not proud of what I did and I don't feel justified but I don't think you have to be all-forgiving to understand why I did what I did. And I know a lot of people in my shoes would have done the same thing.
Guest Posted November 22, 2006 Posted November 22, 2006 I didn't add when I wrote before: I thought I was doing just that --"nipping it in the bud." How do you think I felt when after eight months absolutely nothing, not one thing, had changed? I can tell you that if he had made a similar statement to me, I would have been scared *****less and would have taken action the next day to solve the problem. He was indifferent or paralyzed, or both.
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