pureinheart Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Could it be everything but love? This post is not meant to single out the MM as if this isn't an issue with MW also. It just seems that the MM/OW is more common. The word "love" is used quite often in the description of the MM/OW relationship. If you look at the details of these relationships, I see everything but love. The MM goes home to his W sometimes every night, he spends weekends and holidays w/his W and family....he has a bond with them wether he admits it or not....and the OW is where? Is she sitting at home alone faithful to the MM? Let's say he does leave his W.....has the OW thought of the mess she is really in? This MM has issues and now is bringing his baggage to this "new" relationship. He might have to pay alimony, child support and God knows what else....so what is there really to offer? Niether party in this case respects commitment, so where will that lead? What are the real drivers here....bordom, loniness, fear....none of these will add up to love...it does add up to desparation and hurt. Nine times out of ten the MM will not leave his wife, regardless of what he says, his wife is safety to him...when men walk down that isle they will stay till death do them part, men fear that type of change. It takes a strong, courageous man to walk away from a destructive marrige and an even stronger man to not drag AW through his mess. Men also do not like to be alone and the MM will sometimes have the OW for back up incase his W does leave him. There is real love out there, let none of us sell ourselves short in any way and let us not buy into the lies, manipulation and deception of an individual who is a mess themselves. Trust the fact that the MM/MW who is involved with OW/OM is selfish. The MM who has every excuse in the book as to why he won't leave his wife and has AW on the side is a mostlikely a coward and the biggest game player the OW ever saw and the OW turns into an enabler for this MM to continue the games. To anyone in this situation let truth be your guide and get out before it is too late. Link to post Share on other sites
BUTAFLY Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I understand where your coming from. I reread your post and replaced OW with W and the same rings true. So why do W's accept it and you don't expect the OW to? is this love?: Niether party in this case respects commitment, so where will that lead? What are the real drivers here....bordom, loniness, fear....none of these will add up to love...it does add up to desparation and hurt. his wife is safety to him....men fear that type of change. Your right.... And that's exactly what I see MM living; bored, lonely, fearful, safe lives that does not equal to love. Please understand its the same line of thinking in reverse. OW probably stay in situations... (well, thats why I still crave him) because they don't see love, only desparation, and hurt in that M and they wait for the mm to get over that fear. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 and now is bringing his baggage to this "new" relationship. He might have to pay alimony, child support and God knows what else....so what is there really to offer? How interesting...you begin talking about how there is no love in the MM/OW relationship and give various examples that you feel support your claim but here you are basically talking about money not being in the R due to other obligations and so why would the OW want to be in the R...You are in fact basically saying that unless you stay M you will not have anything to offer another partner...RUBBISH! Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I think that BS's have such a hard time with their H having loved their OW because they have to believe that he never loved them in order to stay with him...that's why their H says after the A is over that he never loved her, she was a temptress, etc. etc. because if he doesn't, he has to hear about it from the W as long as they are together...isn't it enough for the W that he ended the A? I mean believe what you have to to get through it, but if the A ended after any lengthy amount of time, you pretty much bet that their was love involved on both sides... Link to post Share on other sites
sassiex Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I think that BS's have such a hard time with their H having loved their OW because they have to believe that he never loved them in order to stay with him...that's why their H says after the A is over that he never loved her, she was a temptress, etc. etc. because if he doesn't, he has to hear about it from the W as long as they are together...isn't it enough for the W that he ended the A? I mean believe what you have to to get through it, but if the A ended after any lengthy amount of time, you pretty much bet that their was love involved on both sides... I AGREE TOTALLY any ow who has been in a relationship with mm, for some time! 9 times out of 10 there will be feelings on both parts !! i know my mm loves me !!! you can just tell !!! when someone is so into you !! if the affair has to end for what ever reason, the mm then has to stay with w ,, with no ow ...........must be hard i guess it is i had an affair years ago when i was married, you end up looking at yout h and feeling sick..............well i did think about it !!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. -1 Corinthians 13:4 Sorry.... I don't see how sneaking and lying improve upon the idealism of Real Love. That which requires dishonesty in order to survive doesn't seem worth having if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Sorry.... I don't see how sneaking and lying improve upon the idealism of Real Love. That which requires dishonesty in order to survive doesn't seem worth having if you ask me. Well you can turn that around on the M as well...does it mean the H doesn't love his W if he lies and sneaks around? Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Well you can turn that around on the M as well...does it mean the H doesn't love his W if he lies and sneaks around? Sure, why not? I think it's safe to say that a man or woman who willingly chooses to betray their spouse isn't showing what we might define as appropriate loving action within the relationship, particularly during the period of time while they're engaged in inappropriate behavior. They're certainly not upholding the above quote from Corinthians. But that doesn't explain why would anybody from the outside want to select a partner with a known track record for betrayal? Why spend your love on someone who's already adopted a strategy of dishonesty? Why trust someone who pledged love to their spouse, enough so that they initially married them... and then not only regegged on the vow, but didn't even have enough care or courtesy to say so. And OMG... if I hear one more tired platitude about how 'we can't help who we love', I might just give up on humanity altogether, move up onto a mountaintop and start shooting trespassers. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 But that doesn't explain why would anybody from the outside want to select a partner with a known track record for betrayal? Why spend your love on someone who's already adopted a strategy of dishonesty? As for me, I didn't know he was married until it was too late...And why would a W spend love on someone who's already adopted a strategy of dishonesty? Because we love them...Apparently, love means different things to different people...LJ I am glad that your life has been very black and white and you have happily plugged away coming up with generalizations that you apply to the world as the way it is...for others, it hasn't been that easy or black and white and their are infinite possibilities... To put it simply, Love is... ...Love is many things, to many people, in many different ways...to say that a MM doesn't love his W or his OW I believe to be untrue...people make mistakes, people change and things happen and life continues to go on...but it is love that makes it livable... Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 ....why would a W spend love on someone who's already adopted a strategy of dishonesty? I suppose that would depend on if the cheating was an aberration to an otherwise decent character. Although, I can't begin to fathom why any woman would love a serial cheat. A serial cheater loves himself/herself above all others. They feel entitled to gratify themselves, no matter the cost to others. ...Apparently, love means different things to different people... I expect it does at that. LJ I am glad that your life has been very black and white and you have happily plugged away coming up with generalizations that you apply to the world as the way it is...for others, it hasn't been that easy or black and white and their are infinite possibilities... Too childish of a comment to bother with on the whole, but I will say this... If you can reach middle age without developing a sense of who you are and what you believe in, I can't imagine a sorrier state of affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Too childish of a comment to bother with on the whole, but I will say this... If you can reach middle age without developing a sense of who you are and what you believe in, I can't imagine a sorrier state of affairs. First of all, I'm not middle age, but I have a definite sense of who I am and what I believe in, just because it is at odds with yours, doesn't mean it is any less real... Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 First of all, I'm not middle age, but I have a definite sense of who I am and what I believe in, just because it is at odds with yours, doesn't mean it is any less real... Didn't say you were. But I most definately am. And I'll share a secret with you.... I'm not the same person I was in my youth in terms of my belief system or my internal view. Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 How interesting...you begin talking about how there is no love in the MM/OW relationship and give various examples that you feel support your claim but here you are basically talking about money not being in the R due to other obligations and so why would the OW want to be in the R...You are in fact basically saying that unless you stay M you will not have anything to offer another partner...RUBBISH! No, money was second, the first being "baggage". The MM that goes from his M to the OW is jumping from one relationship to another, that is most always not good. If there are children involved and depending on the ages, the devastation they experience is incredible due to the many changes they must endure. Black and white is a good thing as one has a much easier life....grey areas lead to confusion.... Here is another good definition of "love": No greater love does a man have, than to lay his life down for his brother. I seriously doubt that a MM seeing AW would lay down his life for anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 BLack and white is a good thing as one has a much easier life....grey areas lead to confusion.... Here is another good definition of "love": No greater love does a man have, than to lay his life down for his brother. I seriously doubt that a MM seeing AW would lay down his life for anyone. I guess that you are a person who likes to be "told" what to do...yippee for you...I much prefer to find my own answers based on experience and theory... Are you a MM? Unless you are, I don't think you can answer this question...plus, there are plenty of cheating men whose job it is to lay down his life for others...check out the military, police etc...you're just talking to hear your own voice... Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 Wow GEL I hit a nerve with you......are you a MM..... Link to post Share on other sites
BenThereDunThat Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I agree that love means different things to different people. When the exMM told me he loved me, I wanted to believe him. I think he actually thought, in his own weird way, that he did love me. But when I think of romantic love between two people, and the love that I want for myself, I think of someone who can be there for me whenever I need him. And I'll be there for him whenever he needs me. If you are with a married person, they cannot be there for you during the times that true love matters the most, the times that true love is tested and reveals itself. If you were sick in the hospital, could he come sit by your side all night long? No. You couldn't even call him at 2 in the morning should you be in an emergency situation. Some people are ok with that. I am not. The exMM wanted me to be this little piece of "love" he kept stashed in a corner, only to pull out when he wanted, or was lacking. In the meantime, he would appease me. That is not love. Not real, long-lasting, soul-fulfilling, toughs it out through the ups and downs, love. Link to post Share on other sites
Joelle Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 But when I think of romantic love between two people, and the love that I want for myself, I think of someone who can be there for me whenever I need him. And I'll be there for him whenever he needs me. If you are with a married person, they cannot be there for you during the times that true love matters the most, the times that true love is tested and reveals itself. If you were sick in the hospital, could he come sit by your side all night long? No. You couldn't even call him at 2 in the morning should you be in an emergency situation. Some people are ok with that. I am not. The exMM wanted me to be this little piece of "love" he kept stashed in a corner, only to pull out when he wanted, or was lacking. In the meantime, he would appease me. That is not love. Not real, long-lasting, soul-fulfilling, toughs it out through the ups and downs, love. You make a good point. Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 There are varying situations and circumstances with MM, MW, OW and OM...the one that seems to be the most commom is MM/OW...this is the one I am referring mostly to in this forum. My heart goes out to the kids involved and the OW.... All my life, being in aircraft, have worked around mainly men and have seen, heard and experienced almost every senerio concerning all types of relationships. I get hit on all of the time by MM, and most of them already have OW and I guess are board with them and maybe looking for another...these MM will never leave their wives as it will cost them too much. Most of these MM are in REALLY sick marriages....one of my friends who was not a cheater was murdered by his wife a few years back....I'm talking very sick marriages. I have a lot of friends that are OW and they are not your typical home-wreckers that wives call them....most of them were minding their own business when these MM hit on them relentlessly....they just got caught in something that was bigger than them and then didnot know how to get out. With all my friends that are or were OW each of the "circumstances" were different, but all are the same in the fact that the MM used them...and to keep them on the hook the MM would keep them wondering in one form or another....keeping them "thinking" that they would leave their W eventually. From what I have seen, the OW and kids get the brunt of these sick marriges.... Link to post Share on other sites
frannie Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Black and white is a good thing as one has a much easier life....grey areas lead to confusion.... But how far must you distort reality in order to see things only in black and white? Simple, yes... but realistic? I don't think so. Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 But how far must you distort reality in order to see things only in black and white? Simple, yes... but realistic? I don't think so. The distortion of reality is caused by adding more and more shades of gray. What exactly is it that makes a "shade of gray" for you? For me, it's going outside the dictates of right and wrong. Unless it's a matter of law... then right and wrong would be defined by each person's conscience in accordance with their own value system. Those of us who are 'in touch' with our own value system aren't experiencing as much "gray" in our lives. Can't help that. It's a byproduct of being well-adjusted. For those folks who want something soooo much that they're willing to tinker with their own belief system... confusion is bound to result. And for those who don't have a sense of right and wrong... well, they aren't generally wringing their hands here at LS. This isn't something they're losing much sleep over. But if you want to talk about REALITY... check out BTDT's last post. THAT's the reality of the situation. All these other arguments about love and feelings fade to 'smoke and mirrors' if you can't count on someone to be with you when you really NEED them, if you're walking through this world ALONE. No man (or woman) is an island. And if you invest in someone who can't really be there for you... you obstruct the road for someone else who would. Link to post Share on other sites
frannie Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 The distortion of reality is caused by adding more and more shades of gray. What exactly is it that makes a "shade of gray" for you? For me, it's going outside the dictates of right and wrong. Unless it's a matter of law... then right and wrong would be defined by each person's conscience in accordance with their own value system. Those of us who are 'in touch' with our own value system aren't experiencing as much "gray" in our lives. Can't help that. It's a byproduct of being well-adjusted. In my opinion, what makes a 'shade of grey' is when something is not categorically and objectively, for all concerned, either 'right' or 'wrong'. Unless one concerns oneself solely with the position of an individual ('my way or the highway'?) there are always going to be conflicts of interest ('shades of grey') in any situation. It's a philosophical and moral question that has been around for two and a half thousand years, and rightly so. I can give thousands of examples of grey. I wonder if anyone can give (m)any examples of black or white, except where extremes of behaviour such as murder or child abuse are concerned (and even 'murder' is debatable and a matter of definition). Link to post Share on other sites
frannie Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 For those folks who want something soooo much that they're willing to tinker with their own belief system... confusion is bound to result. And for those who don't have a sense of right and wrong... well, they aren't generally wringing their hands here at LS. This isn't something they're losing much sleep over. Someone's belief system might very well admit to the existence of shades of grey. Mine certainly does. Just because you don't share that belief system doesn't invalidate it or make it any more or less useful than a 'black is black: white is white' approach to life. I'm here at LS to read about other people's experiences, rather than wringing my hands over anything. I wasn't looking for a moral debate at all and I'm not losing any sleep. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 BTDT: Just wanted to say that all MM/OW situations are not the same...In my situation, things have happened similar to what you are describing a MM would not do... And we were never secret...how could we have been, I was under the impression he was single... Link to post Share on other sites
BenThereDunThat Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 BTDT: Just wanted to say that all MM/OW situations are not the same...In my situation, things have happened similar to what you are describing a MM would not do... And we were never secret...how could we have been, I was under the impression he was single... I realize that they aren't all the same. But the majority of them are. You will never convince me otherwise. I'm not here to judge yours, or anyone else's, life. I can only speak from my own experience and what I've seen firsthand. If you're ok with being with a MM and have accepted his reasons for staying in his marriage, that's your thing. I don't agree with it, but all you can do is live your own life. Link to post Share on other sites
kellyp1 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 My MM and I share real love and that is what is keeping us as friends. We have never even kissed and would do anything for each other. We both respect what a marriage is and have only said if we had met while we were single, we would be together. With that said, I realize that how we are controlling our actions is rare (and hard on some days). But we are doing this because it is the real, unselfish, support the other person, unconditional, acceptance of reality love and we want to be in each others lives forever. I would move mountains for him but would never break the bond of his marriage and the same holds true for him. Link to post Share on other sites
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