Flyin in Clouds Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 ...I am so intrigued by the fact that you have posted so many times on LS and have managed to not say a single encouraging word to anyone. I'm just a negative person... If InaPanic's H were posting I'd give him some encouragement. I've got lots of sympathy for BSs. I don't have much for WSs. Particularly when all they do is make excuses for why they just had to cheat. We can definitely count on you to provide the harshest, most critical judgement imaginable Well then there aren't enough Muslims on here. They'd advocate stoning an adulterous woman to death. A great deal of our toubles in society are being soft on crime, and the moral relativism which allows any behavior because nobody can say anything is absoltuley wrong or bad. Heck cheating can't be wrong... it's all relative don't you know. I mean if I can justify it to myself who is anyone to condemn me for cheating? Right? The devil (that would be my BS) made me do it. Would you be willing to share what has shaped such strong opinions in your life? I tried to find any threads started by you but there aren't any...just many replies to other people's threads. Yeah, I propbably need to start some but not sure what where to start... What formed my opinions? I'm not sure I'd know. I am what I am. My parents married for 56 years before death seperated them. Not one of my 8 aunts and uncles were divorced. Not one of my parent's dozen or so friends were divorced. I just grew up in a stable environment I guess. One where lying and cheating simply weren't done and family and friends were important. Please tell us about yourself FIC~~if you have the courage that is.I've done so on other threads. Briefly - married 32 years - to the same woman, 3 kids, 1 granddaughter, another on the way. We've had our ups and downs. Our closest friends did go through a horrible divorce and cheating... which I've describe else where. He tried to be the perfect husband, put his wife on a pedistal from which she spat down on him every chance she got. He eventually tired of it and cheated. She was vindicitive. He lives in poverty now. Bad for their kids, bad for their friends, but bad for her... So I don't think much of all the excuses cheaters give for why they just had to do it. I really like the "It was just a mistake", or "I don't know why I did it, it just happened".. those are classic. Happens over and over.. What I do seriously want to know is how a cheater can cheat on someone and turn around and say they love their betrayed spouse? How can you do that to someone you love? Cheating on someone you hate. That I could see, but someone you claim to love? No... that's not love. It is selfishness. I know from reading InaPanic's thread that she was torn up by what she did and agonized over what telling her H would do to him. But now? She's not so bad off, she unloaded on her H. Now he's suffering. Another excuse I like is, "I cheat because I didn't want to hurt my kids with a divorce". Oh, come on. So you cheat, risk a divorce and hurting the kids anyway? Why? Cause the cheater is selfish - satisfying their own selfish needs. That's why. Look at the reason. It isn't to spare the kids hurt. It's to not appear being the bad guy in their kids eyes. If people really cared about their family they wouldn't even think of cheating. Why would someone cross that line? Is their self so important and everyone else so unimportant? I don't know. Are we all told now that "we" are what's important. Our life, our own happiness - everyone else be damned? That certainly was NOT my parents and their peers attitude. The first step for an alcoholic to recover is to admit they are an alcoholic. I'd say the same is true for a cheater. But when they keep saying, well my BS is to blame I don't think they are on the road to recovery. I keep reading "advice" on here were the BS has to admit their "fault" in the marriage that drove their WS to the affiar. Well what did InaPanic's H do to her? For that matter, no matter what the BS did or didn't do does it justify the affiar? No. It might justify divorce but not an affair. I was reading something over on marriage builders, about "forgiveness" versus compenstation. That the WS owes compensation to the BS. Now if my wife cheated on me how on earth could she compensate me? There isn't anything that would compensate me fully. Nothing. I remain faithful when often I would have rather not, and she says, "oh, yeah, sorry I had an affair ten years ago". Gee thanks honey. So I've wasted ten years being faithful when I didn't need to be? Well anyway before this wanders too far off into the weeds... don't know what to tell you. I do think the horrific divorce rate, the cheating rate, the willingness to lie and think nothing of it (see Slick Willie about that one - it all depends on what is is), cheating and affairs are just part of the general moral decline we face. It's OK to lie to business partners, to steal what ever you can, to get away with what you can. You only live once you know. And that's why I'm serious when I say cheating is about a charcter flaw, it's about a lack of honor, self discipline, placing a high value on keeping one's word.
luvstarved Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 You know, I would NEVER EVER forgive my H if he ever cheated, my house would look like he had never lived there within hours of the discovery...I have made this fact CRYSTAL CLEAR to him and I would expect the same treatment in return. But - that is our situation. We are a little older, wiser, been around the block, etc. I don't think there are any excuses for cheating per se, but I do think that things happen and that doesn't make the "cheater" necessarily an evil person. My sister in law had an affair after 25 years of marriage. Quite honestly, she was a sheltered naive person who had never been with anyone else, suffering from "empty nest" syndrome, her husband was very reserved and uncommunicative and things just snowballed for her. I don't condone her actions and if I were her husband, I would have left (he stayed), but I can see how it happened. My reaction to the OP is that it sounds like rationalizing the situation in a way that sets him up as "the good guy" whose cheater of a cheating cheat wife just plain wronged him by wanting a "bad guy". A further post argues that the thought of "unmet needs" is pure BS because a cheater is a cheat and what a cheater does is cheat and that is the cheating truth. In other words, he lives in a black and white world of good guys, bad guys, cheater and non-cheaters. My world is in full color, and though it is not nearly as simplistic, I prefer it. It's a reality thing.
milvushina Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 You know, my ex husband would describe himself as a really nice guy who women (including me) screw over in favor of guys who are "bad boys." A lot of our friends would have described him that way too, at one time. The truth is that his personality was really not that great, he was petty and two faced, the only reason he seemed nice and laid-back was because he didn't have enough backbone to ever say what he really thought. I cheated on him because he was a douche and an alcoholic who refused to stop drinking and wouldn't listen to me when I wanted to talk or see a therapist. Now IF I could do it over again, I would divorce him before I moved on, but that was not as easy as it sounds. To my credit I didn't sleep with my husband after I slept with the other man and I did separate within two weeks. I am just saying that nobody gets cheated on because they are a "nice guy" or a "perfect partner." Now, I have a friend who has some kind of problem, she can't say no to sex even when she is with someone and the other guy is totally unattractive. So there is some random cheating that goes on, but it's not because the women are so shallow they go for the excitement and allure of the bad boys and don't appreciate the good guys. A lot of the time the so-called good guys are total douchebags. I would also like to hear more detail's of Hard Man's story.
Guest Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 Well then there aren't enough Muslims on here. They'd advocate stoning an adulterous woman to death. Oh you don't need Muslims for that. It's right there in the good ol' Bible. Leviticus is your friend. In fact, it also says you should stone disobedient kids to death, too. So gather up your pile of rocks 'cause the Bible says it's OK. A lot of the time the so-called good guys are total douchebags. AMEN to that! All it means, usually, is that the 'good guy' lacks sufficient self-awareness to realize that he's not even close to being a 'good guy'.
Guest Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 I don't buy into the good boy/bad boy thing. Because that had absolutely nothing to do with why I strayed. I guess that can happen but I doubt that's the case in most circumstances. woooo hooooo! nice to see you separate the good boi / bad boi smoke screen! u have been studying! and eveyone thought u were playing! sheeeeeeeeeesh...sometimes classroooms are found in the weirdest places
Mz. Pixie Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 Nothing. I remain faithful when often I would have rather not, and she says, "oh, yeah, sorry I had an affair ten years ago". Gee thanks honey. So I've wasted ten years being faithful when I didn't need to be? So, FIC- question?? You only have to keep your vows if she keeps hers??? Somewhere earlier in your thread you said that if you found out your wife had an affair then you'd have to have one of your own to stay in the marriage?? How does that rank up there with the character and integrity that you state that you have over and over again?? You only have to keep your vow if she keeps hers?? Enlighten me a bit on how that works.
Guest Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 Everyone is so jealous of the "bad boy". I admit I do find them sexy as hell but not relationship material. Just as a man might be attracted to a stripper and want to sex her but may not want to bring her home to Moma. In marriage and long relationships some people find the opposite of what they have appealing. Like guys who's wives have small boobs are attracted to women with large boobs. If you have a blonde, brunettes now look hot. If your man has a large pe-- then you want a smaller (bad example). But, you know what I'm saying.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 But - that is our situation. We are a little older, wiser, been around the block, etc. I don't think there are any excuses for cheating per se, but I do think that things happen and that doesn't make the "cheater" necessarily an evil person. Really? Then what does it make them then? A good gal? A decent person? Someone to be admired and respected? Someone you'd like your kids to emulate in every way? My sister in law had an affair after 25 years of marriage. Quite honestly, she was a sheltered naive person who had never been with anyone else, suffering from "empty nest" syndrome, her husband was very reserved and uncommunicative and things just snowballed for her. I don't condone her actions and if I were her husband, I would have left (he stayed), but I can see how it happened. We can all see how things happen. But that doesn't make them right. And all I would ask is does your SIL's H have the same "right" to have an affair and have her forgive and stay with him afterward? If not, why not? In other words, he lives in a black and white world of good guys, bad guys, cheater and non-cheaters.Look the world is black and white, true or false, on or off, living or dead. One either has cheated or one has not. Cheating is just like pregnancy - you can't be just a little bit pregnant. You either are or are not. And so what you are saying is in your world of many colors there are "degrees" of cheating, some bad, some not so bad. Some justifable, some not justifable. Is that it? Sometimes cheating is OK, sometimes not. So because a husband is reserved or uncommunicataive it's justifable? ...To my credit I didn't sleep with my husband after I slept with the other man and I did separate within two weeks. Damn white of you. I am just saying that nobody gets cheated on because they are a "nice guy" or a "perfect partner." Really? OK, InaPanic, what was "defective" with your H to make you cheat on him? No, the defect is always with the cheater. No matter how imprefect a partner is, no matter how not a nice guy they are, those things don't TOP being a cheater. Cheating is far the worse than anything the BS ever did or didn't do. Now, I have a friend who has some kind of problem, she can't say no to sex even when she is with someone and the other guy is totally unattractive. So there is some random cheating that goes on,Well... yeah, and that is far more the problem than what the BSes do or neglect to do. Stop blaming the victims. It's like saying a woman deserved getting raped because of her behavior or the way she dressed. but it's not because the women are so shallow they go for the excitement and allure of the bad boys and don't appreciate the good guys. A lot of the time the so-called good guys are total douchebags.And a lot of the time it's just the women cheaters that are the douchebags. Oh you don't need Muslims for that. It's right there in the good ol' Bible. Leviticus is your friend. In fact, it also says you should stone disobedient kids to death, too. So gather up your pile of rocks 'cause the Bible says it's OK. Maybe that's still true for Jews but not Christians. Christ asked for the guy without sin to cast the first stone... and no one could be found to throw the first stone. So ...if we can find a guy without sin I guess we can still stone adulterous women to death. And the trouble is while both Jews and Christians gave up stoning women to death long ago, Muslims haven't. AMEN to that! All it means, usually, is that the 'good guy' lacks sufficient self-awareness to realize that he's not even close to being a 'good guy'.Yeah, cheaters (men or women) always have a reason why their BS was so lousy. I'm still waiting to hear why InaPanic's H was such a lousy guy, why he wasn't such a good guy that she just had to have an affair.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 24, 2006 Posted October 24, 2006 So, FIC- question?? You only have to keep your vows if she keeps hers??? Yeap, that's part of the deal. The rules of the game have to be the same for each of us. No double standards. I don't get to do things she can't do and vice versa. What she can do, I can do. I said earlier if my wife was into swinging it would be OK with me, so long as we both played by a clearly established and mutually agreed to set of rules. That is essentially what our vows are. We agreed to be monogamous and so I can't arbitrarily decide we'll be swingers. It would require her agreement and consent to that rule change. And she's not so inclinded. Darn... so my fantasies of wild orgies go unfulfilled. You will find, I hope, that in everything I post, that is a consistent message. What is good for the goose is certainly good for the gander and vice versa. Now I do also believe there are large differences between men and women in regards to sexual needs, emotional needs and how they want them fulfilled, how each sex views love, romance, how they communicate, etc. And I think each sex tends to ignore those differences, instead seeing the opposite sex as pretty much just like themselves and that causes a whole lot of problems in relationships. For example, how often do men complain of not enought sex and women see it as a guy only wanting to satisfy himself and not as the way a man "feels" love and appreciation from his woman? How many women don't get it that a man wants to feel needed for his role in love making? That he isn't just a dildo replacement. Somewhere earlier in your thread you said that if you found out your wife had an affair then you'd have to have one of your own to stay in the marriage?? That is correct. Same terms and contitions apply. She gets another man, I get another woman or two or three. She rewrites the rules of our marriage, then I get to rewrite them too - the way I'd like them. See I'd like to have other women. I really would like to have my wife's best friend. My wife's best friend's H and I even discussed swapping wives once, but that's another story. And yes, this is a couple we rented cabins in the mountains with for Thanksgiving and other vacations, hauled our kids up there and stayed up all night playing bridge. If only it had been strip poker... but I digress. I promised my wife I would only sleep with her, and she's not about to give me permission to have other women so I don't cheat. And to be specific my vow to her was that I would not sleep, i.e. have sex (of any kind), with other women. I specifically made her aware that I would not be averting my eyes from other attractive women nor trying to keep from being turned on by images of other women, nor give up looking at pictures of naked women. I'm married, not dead. I could look all I wanted, just not touch. Same rule for her. How does that rank up there with the character and integrity that you state that you have over and over again?? You only have to keep your vow if she keeps hers?? It is simply playing by the same set of rules. My vows were not different than hers. If she decides she can unilaterally rewrite those vows, then I can too... Enlighten me a bit on how that works.That's how it works. Does that make it understandable? Oh and if I were to cheat on her, yes, she has the same privilege to rewrite the rules as she sees fit. Again, no double standard. Over on marriage builders there is this blurb about forgiveness and compensation. And the author is basically saying forgiveness is nice, but what really needs to happen is the WS needs to compensate the BS. Now what could possilby compensate me for my wife breaking a rule we both agreed to live by which kept me from seeking the pleasure of another woman, all the while she decides to seek the pleasure of another man without my permission? Perhaps Mz. P you could explain how you see it as "fair" that a woman can have an affair, expect her H to fogiver her, take her back, fix the marriage, i.e. go back to monogamous relations and he isn't allowed to do what she did? WTF? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? (and yes, reverse the genders, H cheats on W, expect W to take him back, but she is not allowed to have her own A? sorry, that's on reasonable.) Or is that the BS's punishment for driving the WS to have an affair and suffer all that "guilt" the WS suffers?
luvstarved Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 <quote> Look the world is black and white, true or false, on or off, living or dead. One either has cheated or one has not. Cheating is just like pregnancy - you can't be just a little bit pregnant. You either are or are not. And so what you are saying is in your world of many colors there are "degrees" of cheating, some bad, some not so bad. Some justifable, some not justifable. Is that it? Sometimes cheating is OK, sometimes not. So because a husband is reserved or uncommunicataive it's justifable? <end quote> Well...I didn't say anything about justifying anything. I already said that I personally would have left. Yeah I believe everybody has a story and it can be tragic but I also believe that we all have to live with the consequences of our mistakes, no matter how f**ked up we might have been when we made them. Doesn't mean you can't feel a little sorrowful for the person who screwed up. It also doesn't mean that you have to suddenly declare the BS to be a superior human being. Life isn't always good and evil although I suppose if you choose to parcel everything thus, then life indeed becomes pretty simple and straightforward and it is easy to "be right" without giving it a great deal of thought. Hope you don't get called much for jury duty. BUT - my intended point actually was that just because you are cheated on does not make you a "good guy" automatically. The OP seems to believe that and I frankly think that is pretty pathetic.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 ... Yeah I believe everybody has a story and it can be tragic ... It also doesn't mean that you have to suddenly declare the BS to be a superior human being. The BS is superior in one regard. They didn't cheat. They remained faithful or true to their word. Whatever other faults they had, they didn't have that one. Life isn't always good and evil although I suppose if you choose to parcel everything thus, then life indeed becomes pretty simple and straightforward and it is easy to "be right" without giving it a great deal of thought. Hope you don't get called much for jury duty.People always come up with the argument that things are hopelessly complex. They aren't. They may appear to be at first but situations can always be broken down into a series of smaller elements until you get down to a long string of yes or no / right or wrong decisions. Let's ask it this way. Do you deliberately decide to do things that are wrong? Or do you always try to do the right thing? If the former you need help. If the latter then you have to decide what to do and that means deciding what is right versus what is wrong. We all have to make decision about what to do every day. We decide what is "right" to do and reject the things we decide are wrong. So is deciding to cheat "right" or "wrong"? It has to be one or the other doesn't it? It can't be both right and wrong, nor neither right nor wrong. A or not A. BUT - my intended point actually was that just because you are cheated on does not make you a "good guy" automatically. The OP seems to believe that and I frankly think that is pretty pathetic.I don't see where the OP assumed because he was cheated on he was automatically a good guy. He's point was he was a good guy and that wasn't enough for his slut wife. She had to have a guy that wasn't "fit to tie his shoes". He was doing everything he thought and society says a good guy should do, but his wife wanted the bad boy. So if a wife thinks she is a "good wife", takes care of the home, does the laundry, cooks the means, wipes the kids runny noses, put out no matter how "tired" she is at least once a month, etc., and her husband cheats on her does that automatically mean she was a good wife?
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Hard Man, If your wife cheated on you 40 years ago, when did you discover the affair? And if her reason was to prove she could still "get a man", wouldn't it make just as much sense for a man to prove "he could still get a woman"? Isn't that the basis for the affairs of most mid-life crisis males? To prove they can still get a young sexy woman? You stated you chose the handle Hard Man because you were not going to be the victim. How do you deal with your wife's infidelity? How does it affect you - inside? You just accept she needed more than you? Have you slept with other women besides your wife after you were married?
lighthouse Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Everlong you have obviously not met a true "sociopath." I have. I don't think that most WS are sociopaths. Sure, some are (Scott Peterson) but just cheating doesn't mean a person is a sociopath. That being said I don't think affairs are "accidental." A choice was made - a poor one. I enjoy coming here but I am somewhat amazed at the double standard. When a guy cheats it is expected, manly (or at least tolerated because he is a man) BUT when a woman cheats she is a slut, a homewrecker. BTW, I have never cheated on a bf but I have been cheated on. I still have compassion and while it is something that I don't think I would ever do I try to understand where people are coming from (i.e. InaPanic and Mz. Pixie). FiC yes a murderer is a murderer but there is also murder in self-defense (believe me I have a loaded gun because of the sociopath) and if I killed him - which I would do in a heartbeat if he showed up at my door due to the threats he has made on mine and my parents life and if I killed him that does not make you better than me. It makes me alive and not terrified of a sociopath. Some people are evil - John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway (I watch wayyy to much TV) but if someone was really evil or really a sociopath they wouldn't be on this site either looking for help or trying to help. They would be out murdering or raping. There are degrees (that is why our justice system has different "degree" (i.e. Class A, B, C). LH
lighthouse Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 double post sorry. Doesn't mean I am an idiot though as there are degrees of stupidity. LH
mental_traveller Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 So, FIC- question?? You only have to keep your vows if she keeps hers??? Somewhere earlier in your thread you said that if you found out your wife had an affair then you'd have to have one of your own to stay in the marriage?? How does that rank up there with the character and integrity that you state that you have over and over again?? You only have to keep your vow if she keeps hers?? Enlighten me a bit on how that works. Like all agreements, if one party breaks it, the other is no longer obliged to honour it.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 ... When a guy cheats it is expected, manly (or at least tolerated because he is a man) BUT when a woman cheats she is a slut, a homewrecker. Cheating by anyone is dispicable. It's dishonesty. I still have compassion and while it is something that I don't think I would ever do I try to understand where people are coming from (i.e. InaPanic and Mz. Pixie). I understgand where they are coming from. I got their stories. Doesn't mean what they did was right. And I think both would say, in hindsight, that what they did wasn't right. I don't know if they would say it was wrong. FiC yes a murderer is a murderer but there is also murder in self-defenseCheating in self defense? That's a new one. No there is no murder in self defense. There is killing in self defense but not murder. And that is a problem that people assume all killing is murder. It's not. Killing someone in self defense is not a crime. Murder is a crime. One is wrong and one isn't. (believe me I have a loaded gun because of the sociopath) and if I killed him - which I would do in a heartbeat if he showed up at my door due to the threats he has made on mine and my parents life and if I killed him that does not make you better than me.As far as I'm concerend post 9-11 we need to change the laws so that anyone that makes a threat to kill somone can be shot on sight in self defense. No need to wait until the sociopath attacks. If he had threatened to kill me or my family that is reason enough for me to take him out now, before he has any chance to carry out that threat. There are degrees (that is why our justice system has different "degree" (i.e. Class A, B, C).Yeah, well there shouldn't be but because of the damn attorney's there are.
lighthouse Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Cheating by anyone is dispicable. It's dishonesty. I understgand where they are coming from. I got their stories. Doesn't mean what they did was right. And I think both would say, in hindsight, that what they did wasn't right. I don't know if they would say it was wrong. Cheating in self defense? That's a new one. No there is no murder in self defense. There is killing in self defense but not murder. And that is a problem that people assume all killing is murder. It's not. Killing someone in self defense is not a crime. Murder is a crime. One is wrong and one isn't. As far as I'm concerend post 9-11 we need to change the laws so that anyone that makes a threat to kill somone can be shot on sight in self defense. No need to wait until the sociopath attacks. If he had threatened to kill me or my family that is reason enough for me to take him out now, before he has any chance to carry out that threat. Yeah, well there shouldn't be but because of the damn attorney's there are. Obviously I was not suggesting there was a thing a cheating in self-defense. However if the sociopath showed up at my door I am sure I would be charged with murder and go to trial - got to love those cops . So in your world I should drive 5 hours, find this man and kill him. That would be murder. He deserves it but that would be murder and THAT would be wrong. I don't think that these "damn" attorneys are the ones that set up our justice system. You need to talk to the founding fathers to fight that one. Good luck on that one. Plus sometimes people are innocent and it is those "damn" attorneys that help them not go to jail. LH
Mz. Pixie Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Like all agreements, if one party breaks it, the other is no longer obliged to honour it. Sorry I disagree with this statement. IMO, a person's vow is their own and if they are so set in keeping it- it shouldn't matter whether the other person keeps it or not. To me, there is where the real character and integrity lie- in keeping yours even if the other person does not- because you said you were going to. There are people on this board who have stayed with their spouses and mended their marriages and they haven't gone out and decided to do the same. My hats are off to those people because even though betrayed they still kept their own vows.
Mz. Pixie Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 So if a wife thinks she is a "good wife", takes care of the home, does the laundry, cooks the means, wipes the kids runny noses, put out no matter how "tired" she is at least once a month, etc., and her husband cheats on her does that automatically mean she was a good wife? No it doesn't- if her husband's idea of frequency is more than that or if he's not getting his needs met. Sure, a person should determine whether or not they think they are doing their all to be a good partner- but their spouse should also have a say in how they are performing as a partner.
Mz. Pixie Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 That is correct. Same terms and contitions apply. She gets another man, I get another woman or two or three. She rewrites the rules of our marriage, then I get to rewrite them too - the way I'd like them. See I'd like to have other women. I really would like to have my wife's best friend. My wife's best friend's H and I even discussed swapping wives once, but that's another story. And yes, this is a couple we rented cabins in the mountains with for Thanksgiving and other vacations, hauled our kids up there and stayed up all night playing bridge. If only it had been strip poker... but I digress. Perhaps Mz. P you could explain how you see it as "fair" that a woman can have an affair, expect her H to fogiver her, take her back, fix the marriage, i.e. go back to monogamous relations and he isn't allowed to do what she did? WTF? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? (and yes, reverse the genders, H cheats on W, expect W to take him back, but she is not allowed to have her own A? sorry, that's on reasonable.) Or is that the BS's punishment for driving the WS to have an affair and suffer all that "guilt" the WS suffers? FIC- I think your anger at wayward spouses has to do with the fact that you wish you could do some of these things. But, that since you haven't- when you have certainly had the urge to- then no one else should?? In other words "By golly, if I can't you shouldn't either!" Are you angry that you remain faithful even though you don't want to while others do not? I certainly have never said it was fair for a person to cheat and be forgiven and the like. I do not condone revenge affairs- I do not think they are productive for recovery. The reason is not for the sake of the WS- but rather for the BS. They think that sleeping with that other person will make them even, when in reality- it will not. I personally do not believe it makes them feel better at all and it only complicated matters. It will only screw up the betrayed spouse even more when they are trying to get their lives back on track. I certainly do not feel that the affair is punishment for the BS driving the person to have an affair. What I've said is that most happy people do not have affairs and there are conditions in the relationship which cause the person to be unhappy- which makes them vulnerable to cheat. Would you not agree that during your marriage during the unhappy times you were vulnerable?? But you didn't step over the line of course. It's not the BS's fault that the WS decides to step over the line AT ALL. The conditions in the marriage however are the fault of both parties. Those said conditions are what cause the person to be vulnerable to the affair period. Doesn't matter to me if it's a man or a woman. You mentioned that you specifically told your wife you wouldn't quit looking at other women or being turned on by them?? Did you know that by some standards lusting after another woman is considered adultery as well?? In fact, according to the Bible (if you're using that standard as your basis for argument) it certainly is. Just throwing it out there for you to chew on. You also asked earlier in your post somewhere whether or not I would agree that I was wrong when I had my affair?? Most definitely! I have more than admitted that, time and time again. I will certainly own up to stepping over the line, but I will not own up to him pushing me to that line over and over by his repeated neglect of our marriage. And, do not lump me in with Inapanic. We are certainly not the same even though we have both cheated. According to her, her H is perfect and she's not even sure why she cheated. I completely get why I cheated and know why I never will again. Big difference.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Sorry I disagree with this statement. IMO, a person's vow is their own a... There are people on this board who have stayed with their spouses and mended their marriages and they haven't gone out and decided to do the same. My hats are off to those people because even though betrayed they still kept their own vows. Mz. P, thanks for the discussion. I do enjoy your POV. First it's a marriage contract. Mutually agreed to. If I contract with you to paint my house for a certain amount of money, but I decide not to pay you, are you obligated to paint my house? You could paint my house to keep your part of the bargain I suppose, knowing I won't pay, but what sense would that make? I would not have agreed to my vows if they were not mutually binding, i.e. if they didn't apply to both of us equaly. The vows specifically did not include a term like "faithful or unfaithful". Richer or poorer yes, but not "no matter what you (my spouse) do I will keep my vow". It was always contingent upon both of us holding up our ends of the bargain in the faithfulness department. Sure, many people decide to stay - mostly out of weakness, not strength I suspect - not wanting to hurt the kids, or loose the house or most of their assets in a divorce or some misguided notion of being noble or unselfishly loving an undeserving partner. It must be horrible to be so hopeless in love with a person that just doesn't care that much about you that you can't break free of them after they'd done one of the most hurtful thing one spouse can do the other. All that said, what two people agree to do within or without their marriage is their business. As I've pointed out many couples live alternative lifestyles that most of us wouldn't consider for ourselves. Some people can take a cheating spouse back no matter how many times they cheat. Hillary comes to mind. Of course some, like her, have a motive that is other than "love". But for me, if my wife broke her vow of faithfulness to me, I could not stay with her without doing something similar to what she did. Even then I'm not sure I'd stay, but at the minimum her compenstation to me would have to be a right to do as she did. I'm not going to be the inferior partner in the sex department no matter how noble that makes me feel. The reason I feel strongly about this is because giving her my fidelity isn't easy for me. It's hard. And so her fidelity in exchange is important, no vital if I'm going to keep mine to her. And if she decides she no longer needs to give that, well, no point in my trying so hard to give either. My hat's off to those that have the courage to dump the WS and find someone worthy of their love. And this whole thread begs the question, what makes a "good" wife or a "good" husband. And that deserves a thread of it's own. FIC- I think your anger at wayward spouses has to do with the fact that you wish you could do some of these things. Anger? Why do people always do that? You think disdain, disgust, disapproval is anger? I simply don't like people that think cheating is OK and continually make excuses that justify what they did as OK. And it's part of a larger problem. People think nothing of cheating on a spouse, how honest will they be with other people? How easy to lying and cheat everyone. Enron? or a contractor you hire to fix something around the house and then does half the job but takes all the money? And no I don't want to do what WSs do. I don't want to cheat. Are you angry that you remain faithful even though you don't want to while others do not?Angry isn't the right word. Do I have internal conflicts over remaining faithful versus having desires for other women? Yes. Would I be angry if my wife had an affair after my fighting to suppress those desires? Yes. My vows are based on being mutual and equal. And if she can have sex with someone other than me then I can have sex with someone other than her. It is just that simple. What I do not understand is how any WS could possibly see that as unfair, unjust or even remotely unreasonable? The WS gets to do as they please but their slave of a partner has to remain bound by the original terms of the contract? Sorry, that kind of double standard simply doesn't cut it. It seems incredibly cruel to me that a WS would demand, as a condition of staying together, that the BS remain entirely faithful to them when the WS decided they didn't have to be faithful. it just adds insult to injury. I just don't get that at all. But then cheaters do things for selfish reasons so I guess continuing to be selfish is to be expected. As a BS said on another thread he'd like to experience the "thrill", the "rush" that his wife admitted she got from her affair but she says no way... come on... how loving is that? She wants to deny him what she got, no took? How is that anything but a double standard? I certainly have never said it was fair for a person to cheat and be forgiven and the like. Well without "fairness" how does the relationship survive? There seem to be two generally different cases for affairs. Yours where your H basically ignored you, including your threat to have an affair, if that isn't a wake up call what is? And InaPanic where her H, AFAWK, didn't do anything to driver her to have an affair, it was all her doing or mostly. In your case, your H's "unfair" treatment of you justified in your mind your "unfair" treatment of him. In InaPanic's case, well... were is the fairness in her relationship? I don't know. If some day InaPanic's H has an affair as she did, "it just happened and he didn't know why it happened"... will she be as forgiving as she wants him to be? Or is there a double standard at play here? I can do it, you must forgive, but you can't do it? What bothers me is the whole double standard thing in relationships. And it's just as wrong for an unfaithful H to demand his wife remain completely faithful to him after his affair. I'm thinking of Hard2Think here. I do not condone revenge affairs- I do not think they are productive for recovery. The reason is not for the sake of the WS- but rather for the BS. They think that sleeping with that other person will make them even, when in reality- it will not.The is right. It won't make them "even". Nothing ever will. From the affair forward the relationship has to be on terms the BS will accept first and foremost. It's their ball game now. They get to dictate the rules. If the WS doesn't like the new rules then too bad, the relationship is over. But the WS doesn't get to negotiation or insist the relationship return to the old rules. That is entirely the BS's option. If the WS wants to keep the relationship they've got an awful lot of crow to eat. . I personally do not believe it makes them feel better at all and it only complicated matters. It will only screw up the betrayed spouse even more when they are trying to get their lives back on track.Your welcome to that opinion, but as a WS how would you know what is best for a BS? I view your or any WS's opinion on this matter with a HUGE grain of skepticism because you have your own self interest at heart, not your BS's and unless you've been a BS you can't really relate. The WS is just trying to keep their BS from having any fun. Again they are being doubly selfish. First they have an affair and then they tell their BS that they can't have an affair? Why? Because it will hurt the WS's feelings? Wow... It won't help recovery? As I said, the only way for ME to possibly consider staying together after an affair is if I had the same privilege my wife had, the same rule, ... I won't tolerate the inequality in the relationship her affair created. If she didn't accept that then there would be no hope. Basically she's telling me our relationship is no longer about playing by the same rules - being equal partners, but that she has a special set just for her, and they don't apply to me. She wouldn't want our relationship to return to what it was - playing by the same rules, but to remain in the way she unilaterally and without my consent modified the rules of our relationship to be. That simply wouldn't be acceptable to me. I certainly do not feel that the affair is punishment for the BS driving the person to have an affair.Well as the betrayer in your relationship what was it? It really doesn't matter how you view it because you were not the one betrayed. How does your H view it? How does InaPanic's H view it? It certainly would feel like punishment to most betrayed spouses I would think. What I've said is that most happy people do not have affairs. How was InaPanic unhappy? I didn't see anything in her long thread that says she was. And what does happiness have to do with it anyway? Was the vow to remain faithful contingent upon being happy? "Honey, I will remain faithful to you just so long as you continue to make me happy". Sorry I missed that part of the vow. Would you not agree that during your marriage during the unhappy times you were vulnerable??Yes, but then I'm "vulnerable" to the charms of women all the time. There are times I wish that as soon as the minster said "you may kiss the bride" all other women on the planet became unattractive to me. But that didn't happen. Women are just as attractive to me before as after that kiss. Did you know that by some standards lusting after another woman is considered adultery as well?? In fact, according to the Bible ... Thank you. I'm well aware I'm a sinner. The problem is I can't control a reaction that causes a certain thing automatically. It isn't voluntary... uh, it kind of has a mind of it's own... I will certainly own up to stepping over the line, but I will not own up to him pushing me to that line over and over by his repeated neglect of our marriage. And, do not lump me in with Inapanic. We are certainly not the same ...I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying it was your BS's fault that you had an A? He "pushed" you to it? Granted he may have been a lousy husband, father, man... and your relationship was basically over, but was any of that the same kind of breaking of your vows as your affair was? I can certainly sympathize that you had a bad marriage and maybe neglect is even more hurtful than being physically abused, at least if he hit you you would know he's thinking about you, but to just ignore you... that may be even worse... I mean if my wife hit me I'd know she was at least mad enough at me to do that, but if she just ignored me like I wasn't even there... I think that would be worse. And I look at your case and InaPanic's as opposite ends of the spectrum.
Mz. Pixie Posted October 26, 2006 Posted October 26, 2006 And what does happiness have to do with it anyway? Was the vow to remain faithful contingent upon being happy? "Honey, I will remain faithful to you just so long as you continue to make me happy". Sorry I missed that part of the vow. No, the vow to remain faithful didn't have a "happiness" clause thrown in there- but neither did yours have a "if my spouse cheats I get to do the same" clause. See what I mean?? Thank you for admitting that part of your issue is that it's hard for you to be faithful but you have and that you're tempted by women all the time. I think that you're basing the whole affair issue on the basis of sex with the other person. For you, that would be what you would be getting out of the whole thing. For me, it wasn't what I was after. What I wanted was the attention and affection- but realistically I knew that I would have to have sex with this person more than likely to continue to get what I wanted from him. And, when I said that most happy people don't cheat, I meant most. Perhaps IAP's marriage is different?? I believe that she does have some issues there that are as of yet she hasn't figured out yet- perhaps within herself- that helped this to happen. When I say that my exhusband pushed me to cheat- what I mean is that he created the conditions within our marriage that made me vulnerable to an affair. It's kinda like if you have someone who hasn't eaten a decent meal in a long time- and there is a person holding the food from them. You're starving. Then, along comes another person who wants to take you to a buffet. Sure, you'd rather get what you want from the original table- but that's not happening- so this other buffet looks so good! I didn't do it as revenge for the way my exhusband had treated me. In truth, he's a good person- but he just wanted different things out of a marriage than I did. The affair was not about me getting a strange piece of *ss- which is what I think that you think is what most people cheat for. It was about being lonely, feeling unloved, underappreciated, and compounded with the utter sense of despair I was feeling personally due to the death of my closest relative. I had no intentions of doing it- I really didn't- even when I threatened him with it. Then, someone came along who pursued me- hard. And I was lonely and vulnerable and it happened. I am an extremely resilent and strong woman. I survived incredible abuse growing up and turned my life around on my own. I've been told that most people that grew up like I did ended up either in a ditch, in jail, as a drug addict or a prostitute. My only support system was my above mentioned relative that died right before my affair. I was a Christian, I was in church- I taught Sunday School over the years and considered myself to have extremely high morals. I am the kind of person who remains faithful- yet I didn't. I'm not saying these things to make me look like the victim. What I am saying is that it took the right set of conditions for it to happen. I didn't create all of those conditions. And I have no doubt if my exhusband would have been the husband to me he had promised and vowed to be I wouldn't have even been in the position to be vulnerable. I would have blown that person off without thinking about it- before it got to the point where he was making me feel things my husband hadn't in a long time- because I'd blown off men before who were interested in me. It was me who crossed the line. Yes. It was wrong and if I had to go back I would change it all and have left him before that happened. Yet I can't. I can only go forward from that- be the best wife I can be to the man I'm married to now (who knows everything and still trusts me), and hope that I can help others from my experience. Which is why I come here.
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 26, 2006 Posted October 26, 2006 No, the vow to remain faithful didn't have a "happiness" clause thrown in there- but neither did yours have a "if my spouse cheats I get to do the same" clause. See what I mean?? How would you know what our vows are? We wrote our own. And actually our vow did have essentially that. We both agreed that whatever one could do the other could and whatever one could not do the other likewise could not do and that was specifically with regard to the opposite sex. If she can dance with other men, I can dance with other women. If she can kiss other men, I can kiss other women. If I am not allowed to dance or kiss other women, she can't do those either with other men. All of those issue were discussed before we got married and mutually agreed to. So no, I don't see what you mean. And even if we hadn't made that explict to one another, it is implicit in traditional vows. What is the one legitimate Biblical reason for divorcing? Unfaithfulness. At that point, I consider myself divorced and no longer bound by my vows, the adultery made them null and void. Thank you for admitting that part of your issue is that it's hard for you to be faithful but you have and that you're tempted by women all the time. Yeah, I'm a heterosexual male. Women are attractive and exciting. I told my wife (before we married) that the world would be a better place if we could enjoy sex like wine. If we have one particiular wine that is our favorite but occasionally we'd like a sip of a different bottle, well why not? She didn't buy it. I think that you're basing the whole affair issue on the basis of sex with the other person. For you, that would be what you would be getting out of the whole thing. For me, it wasn't what I was after.That is a very significant issue. I believe, in general, men and women want different things from an affair. Men want sex, women emotional connection. Men form an emotional bond after sex, women want the emotional bond then have sex to seal the deal. What I wanted was the attention and affection- but realistically I knew that I would have to have sex with this person more than likely to continue to get what I wanted from him. This whole difference between how men and women view sex and emotional need causes a whole lot of problems in relationship. Men complain they aren't getting enough sex from their wife, but in realtiy that means to the men their wives simply don't care about them so they feel unloved and that leads them to have an affair. Women say they aren't having their emotional needs meet so they go off and find someone to fill that need and end up having sex. I also think this basic difference makes a BS view the impact of an affair differenlty. Women that cheat and want to reconcile don't understand that the sex, and not the emotional side of the affair, is the big deal for their husband to overcome. For a wayward wife, the emotional connection is done, and the sex she had with OM well that wasn't her main interest and it's done, past, it's no big deal. But for her H it is a big deal. If my wife had an EA I wouldn't be nearly as hurt by that than if she had an PA. I think the reverse is true for women. They view the EA side of their H's A as the bigger problem. Because sex isn't the "big deal" to women, that part is easier to get over for them. Not that the PA side doesn't hurt women, I just think the PA side is more hurtful to men, because sex is the big deal in a man's affair. I think this basic gender difference in the emphasis of the emotional side versus the physical side is at the root of a lot of marital problem. Women often don't understand or misunderstand the role sex plays for a man in a relationship, and men misunderstand that women are only interested in sex after they have an emotional bond. There aren't very many true nymphomaniacs. At least not as many as men would like. :lmao: You're starving. Then, along comes another person who wants to take you to a buffet. I understand that arguement. But men would like to eat at the buffet every day... rather than just the same old table. And most men are starving all the time. Would all the men that get too much sex please raise their hand. And before the women that aren't getting any all point out their husband doesn't seem interested, sorry to say but if they were at the buffet they'd probably be eager to munch on someone else. That is why sex ought to be like wine. You have your favorite, but it's OK to sample a different bottle once in a while. I didn't do it as revenge for the way my exhusband had treated me. In truth, he's a good person- but he just wanted different things out of a marriage than I did. The affair was not about me getting a strange piece of *ss- which is what I think that you think is what most people cheat for. No I don't think that. It's what men, generally (not all men of course, but most), cheat for. Women (generally) want what you wanted. Very typical. Even IanPanic wanted the thrill that the OM gave her. I don't know that she missed the sex as much as the emotional side when she broke it off. I know she went through "withdrawal" from her "addiction", but what was she addicted to? The sex or the EA? It was about being lonely, feeling unloved, underappreciated, and compounded with the utter sense of despair I was feeling personally due to the death of my closest relative. I undestand. I do. Most women I've talked to about their affairs say the same things... lonely, feeling unloved, etc. And when they found someone to pay attention then that lead to sex... They weren't looking for sex first. ... What I am saying is that it took the right set of conditions for it to happen. I didn't create all of those conditions. The things that cause a relationship to fail are seldom the result of just one of the partners. It does take two to tango. I didn't create all the contitions that caused my wife to ignore me for while either. I worked extra hard to fix our problems. I don't know if there was anything more you could have done to fix yours, probably not. But you know now that leaving would have been a better course of action than cheating. But then that's the thing about hindsight versus foresight. We can always see more clearly looking back than forward.
a4a Posted October 26, 2006 Posted October 26, 2006 wait a minute if men see sex as sex only then it should be much easier to realize that a cheating wife only had her sexual needs fulfilled by another guy. I need to reword that but it would seem a man would think a woman having an A is more like him and just wanted to get her rocks off... and so what is the big deal, he has the urge on occassion to eat at a different table so he should understand her urge more easily? or is it a man sex/ territory issue.... like someone driving your new car before you even put 50 miles on it?
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