stoopid_guy Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Background: My wife and I haven't been intimate in many years. Basically, she quit wanting it, and I gave up trying in frustration. Every so often, I'd try again, but never successfully. I was "numb" about it for a while, but over the last few months I've started wanting more. I've seriously considered cheating. I've seriously considered divorce. We have one daughter who's 14. This weekend, I decided to try one more time with her. I started by asking if she still found me attractive, she said "yes." (On the other hand, what's she supposed to say? OK, I'm stoopid.) I asked her if she remembered how sweet making love was, and if she missed it. She said she did miss it, but just didn't feel the "urge" any more. I asked her if there was any way I could help her get it back, told her I knew a marriage counselor, suggested finding some books, whatever it took to give things a chance. She didn't like the idea of a counselor, and didn't seem excited about books, but finally agreed that we should at least try it. The "talk" basically happened on and off over the whole weekend. (It's a bit of a delicate subject, I didn't want to get angry or put her on the defensive.) So Sunday night, I decided to see what would happen. She was on her side facing me, I moved close and reached around her and started rubbing her back. She closed her eyes and seemed to really enjoy it, so I kissed her and she returned it. I'd almost forgotten how wonderful it felt. We're kissing, I reach under the t-shirt she had on and was carressing her soft, warm skin. After a while, I worked my hand down to her a$$ and under her panties. All of a sudden; "What if (our daughter) comes in?" So I get up and lock the bedroom door. While I'm up, she takes off her t-shirt. I lay back down and continue carressing her a$$, and kiss my way down to her (oh so sweet and sensitive) breasts. "What if the neighbors see?" The blinds are closed, and the closest neighbor is probably 500 feet away, but I turn off the lights anyway. Back to kissing, cuddling, carressing, telling her how beautiful she is, telling her how wonderful it feels to hold her... "What if it's too dry?" "I can moisten you with my tongue." Funny look, but I'd anticipated and got the KY I'd hidden in my night-stand. Back to business, she turns over and I start massaging her legs and kissing her a$$, reaching up to play with her nipples, and after a few more minutes, "I'm sorry, I'm just tired" and that was the end of that. I said "that's OK," she said "I love you," I said "I love you too," and it was off to sleep. Monday night: Same basic thing. Tuesday night: Same thing. Wednesday night: You guessed it, same thing. How can a person be too tired to make love? I can understand being to tired for acrobatic monkey-love, but slow-sweet-cuddly love? "Too tired to" means it's not as important as anything else you weren't too tired to do that day. Why would someone let their partner get "hot and bothered" and NEVER do anything about it? Why not just turn over and say "no way, no how" from the beginning? Wondering if I'm going to be stoopid enough to try again tonight. Probably not.
CrushedOrgans Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Background: My wife and I haven't been intimate in many years. Basically, she quit wanting it, and I gave up trying in frustration. Every so often, I'd try again, but never successfully. I was "numb" about it for a while, but over the last few months I've started wanting more. I've seriously considered cheating. I've seriously considered divorce. We have one daughter who's 14. This weekend, I decided to try one more time with her. I started by asking if she still found me attractive, she said "yes." (On the other hand, what's she supposed to say? OK, I'm stoopid.) I asked her if she remembered how sweet making love was, and if she missed it. She said she did miss it, but just didn't feel the "urge" any more. I asked her if there was any way I could help her get it back, told her I knew a marriage counselor, suggested finding some books, whatever it took to give things a chance. She didn't like the idea of a counselor, and didn't seem excited about books, but finally agreed that we should at least try it. The "talk" basically happened on and off over the whole weekend. (It's a bit of a delicate subject, I didn't want to get angry or put her on the defensive.) So Sunday night, I decided to see what would happen. She was on her side facing me, I moved close and reached around her and started rubbing her back. She closed her eyes and seemed to really enjoy it, so I kissed her and she returned it. I'd almost forgotten how wonderful it felt. We're kissing, I reach under the t-shirt she had on and was carressing her soft, warm skin. After a while, I worked my hand down to her a$$ and under her panties. All of a sudden; "What if (our daughter) comes in?" So I get up and lock the bedroom door. While I'm up, she takes off her t-shirt. I lay back down and continue carressing her a$$, and kiss my way down to her (oh so sweet and sensitive) breasts. "What if the neighbors see?" The blinds are closed, and the closest neighbor is probably 500 feet away, but I turn off the lights anyway. Back to kissing, cuddling, carressing, telling her how beautiful she is, telling her how wonderful it feels to hold her... "What if it's too dry?" "I can moisten you with my tongue." Funny look, but I'd anticipated and got the KY I'd hidden in my night-stand. Back to business, she turns over and I start massaging her legs and kissing her a$$, reaching up to play with her nipples, and after a few more minutes, "I'm sorry, I'm just tired" and that was the end of that. I said "that's OK," she said "I love you," I said "I love you too," and it was off to sleep. Monday night: Same basic thing. Tuesday night: Same thing. Wednesday night: You guessed it, same thing. How can a person be too tired to make love? I can understand being to tired for acrobatic monkey-love, but slow-sweet-cuddly love? "Too tired to" means it's not as important as anything else you weren't too tired to do that day. Why would someone let their partner get "hot and bothered" and NEVER do anything about it? Why not just turn over and say "no way, no how" from the beginning? Wondering if I'm going to be stoopid enough to try again tonight. Probably not. ooh...a tease is the worst. it doesn't seem like you're getting anywhere...so i would stop trying the "free massage til she falls asleep" tactic. i wonder what her deal is...it doesn't sound like a cheating thing, really. has she had a physical lately? i know it's normal to go through cycles, but years? i wish you luck.
hotgurl Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I don't understand why she would let you get so far and than say no. That's really cruel. I would almost go with the harsh card. Tell her your not living in a sexless marriagge. I feel for you. That's horrible. What if you try tonigth and when she say no tell her you really need it and want her and see what happens.
bluechocolate Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Maybe there just isn't a downside here for her? She is getting what she wants (or not as the case may be) & you're the one suffering. I'd be seriously considering an affair/divorce also! Does she realise how important this is to you? To your marriage? Would she care if you said, "we do something about this or we speak to our lawyers?" I think counseling would be in order here, it doesn't sound like something you can work through yourselves.
hotgurl Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I will never understand how women can deny thier husbands sex and then expect them to be faithful.
Art_Critic Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I think counseling would be in order here, it doesn't sound like something you can work through yourselves. I agree with BC... there is no remedy that can happen without a third party intervening to find out what is up.. It is not normal for a person to go years without sex like this.. there has to be an underlying issue that a therapist needs to look at.. Get a marriage counselor.. and if she won't go to see him/her then you need to go alone.. you need help with this...
quankanne Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 How can a person be too tired to make love? I'm going out on a limb here, but do you think that may she thinks she's not attractive enough on top of whatever worries she's got? That she's no longer younger, therefore no longer appealing to anyone (even if you're still making moves on her)? other thought is, could she be going through pre-menopause or early menopause? either scenario is enough to kill someone's low libido ... the only way you're going to get to the bottom of this is to engage in counseling so that you can communicate with each other better.
Sand&Water Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Reply: Puzzling, to say the least. I'm not sure what to tell you, stoopid_guy. Question: Have you tried to assess, evaluate, and decipher the reasons as to why she would be rejecting sex from you? and Have you noticed anything, or something out of the ordinary that might suggest emotional depression -or, God forbid, cheating? This may be, totally an outfielder, but I sense that she is experiencing a deprivation of higher meaning to her lifestyle. In other words, she is not content with the way you are handling yourself, in terms of coping with her/your issues, and issues that lie elsewhere in the relationship. She is, no longer, excited by you and thus feeling like she is not "in love with you". I say, definitely go see a marriage counselor. Immediately. The problem might widen, if it is not delt with quickly enough. Regards, Sand&Water
Scrivdog Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 No, no, noooo! That's completely and totally unacceptable. Your sex life is dead. At this point, I think you have no choice but to cheat, leave now, or leave in 4 more years when your daughter is off to college. You wife is NOT going to have sex with you. Look what you've been reduced to. Trying to see if you can "score" with the wife! I hope you truly realize how f*cked up this is. And yet if you cheat, it will be your fault .. yep. Can you believe this?
IpAncA Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Sounds like there is something deeper here is going on. May want to seek counseling because it may not be something that you both can solve on your own. I could suggest leaving her alone and see if she initates it but doesn't sound like she will so leave that out. She might be depressed, VERY self conscious, drive could have gone way down, could be cheating (hopefully not), etc... There is a reason that she does show interest and then stops. If she does that a lot then there is a problem that you are not aware of. I don't know if this would work but you could always take away the reasons that she doesn't want to and give her reasons to want too. This way she can't use those excuses on you. Good luck!!
syz Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I agree with IpAncA. There is something deeper going on which needs to be discussed with someone professional. I recommend David Schnarch's Passionate Marriage as a guide. It is an ok read but more importantly he and his wife can help you can find a therapist in your area that deals with this issue with their type of therapy. Most therapists approach the low desire spouse as the one with the problem and yes they are manifesting a problem but usually it is relationship dynamics that have yet to be addressed or uncovered that are at the root. Do not cheat on your wife. And yes this situation is unacceptable. When we promise to love and cherish for better or for worse the assumption is that our spouse will do everything in their power to not make us suffer with their limitations (alcoholism, abuse, lack of desire etc) and right now she is making you suffer with her limitations. Sex does slide to the background sometime but not for months and months or years and years unless there is a very good reason like illness.
Author stoopid_guy Posted October 13, 2006 Author Posted October 13, 2006 Thanks everyone. Answers (in no particular order.) She is post-menopause, and I understand it can reduce libido. That's a reason for me to try harder. It's also a reason for her to ask her GYN for something that might help the situation too, which she doesn't want to do (Embarassed.) IMHO, she does stress more than she should about some things. Her brother and father are constantly mad at each other, which really bothers her, but there's really nothing we can do about that and it's been going on a long time. She says she also stresses about money, but we have a comfortable income. I offered to go back to consulting, which would mean more money, but longer hours and travel. She didn't want me to start travelling again. We've got a "teen-age drama queen" for a daughter, but she's a good kid most of the time and no worse than than most other teenagers. Yes, counselling might help, but I don't want to do that alone. She's confident in her looks, and I do everything I can think of to make her feel attractive. Sometimes I wonder if she thinks being attractive alone is enough. I'm sure she's not cheating, and I think she's happy over-all. That may well be why she doesn't try harder. I KNOW not trying and waiting for her to initiate will not work. My personal problem; I have a really hard time being "harsh" to her. Anyway, I'm not going to try tonight, going to bed early and will try to sleep instead.
Scrivdog Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 If she gave a sh*t, she would have at least offerred a handjob or a BJ. But she doesn't. DO NOT put up with that crap. Whether or not you realize it, this is affecting your psyche very deeply. You've come to accept rejection as your lot in life. Your self esteem is in the toilet. Pull yourself together man! You only live once!
Flyin in Clouds Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 .... OK, I'm stoopid. No argument there. The "talk" basically happened on and off over the whole weekend. (It's a bit of a delicate subject, I didn't want to get angry or put her on the defensive.)Well excuse me stooopid but how is she supposed to know how you feel about the whole thing, and how desperate you are, if you aren't willing to get angry with her, hurt her like she's hurting you, you aren't going to get anywhere. You're being a nice guy, but a stoooopid guy and in the long run you are harming your relationship by being "nice". You have to take responsibilty for your happiness, your relationship and your wife's happiness. Or would she be happier without you? Does she even remotely realize you'd leave? If she wouldn't care if you left then you can't fix this. You aren't going to solve this problem without some pain for both of you. IMO. ... "I'm sorry, I'm just tired" and that was the end of that. I said "that's OK," she said "I love you," I said "I love you too," and it was off to sleep.She's seriously avoiding it... I wonder why? Could she have had an affair and is now afraid to have sex with you? What makes you sure she hasn't? How can a person be too tired to make love? I can understand being to tired for acrobatic monkey-love, but slow-sweet-cuddly love?Get some Geritol and spike her food with it. Why would someone let their partner get "hot and bothered" and NEVER do anything about it? Why not just turn over and say "no way, no how" from the beginning? Have you asked her that question? Tell her you're not buying the too tired argument and doing that hurts you. And maybe she needs some iron supplements. Wondering if I'm going to be stoopid enough to try again tonight. Probably not.Hey, don't try for sex. Tell her instead you have to talk and this time express some anger and ask why she's unwilling?
luvstarved Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 OK stoopid (don't take that the wrong way ) I have seen quite a few of your posts but this is the most comprehensive explanation of your situation that I have seen. I have a couple of thoughts here. One that I am surprised that no one has mentioned is MAYBE YOU ARE GOING TOOOOO SLOOOOOOWLY! I know that you want to please her and want it to be a memorable experience, but perhaps you could try starting off with getting to the main event sooner. Foreplay is WONDERFUL - I ain't getting any of that these days - and I don't want to suggest that you should ultimately settle for sex of a sort you don't prefer...but if she seemed willing then got "tired" maybe it was because there was TOO MUCH foreplay, and especially considering her personal lack of desire, it was getting well, tiresome. I am not saying this is the case, just offering food for thought. I think the immediate goal should be to get her through an entire sexual experience and see if that helps get her back in the saddle sooner. I would also suggest talking with her about it AGAIN! I know you don't want to be harsh and you don't want to set her into a defensive catch 22...but WTF? ASK her why she doesn't feel able to "complete the task" in a gentle way. "I really appreciate how you have made the effort to make love with me, especially since you say you personally don't have that need. But I feel that now I am getting to the brink only to miss out yet again. This is enormously frustrating for me and I don't know if I can continue like this. I want you so much and it is driving me crazy not to be able to have you. Can you help me understand what is preventing you from being able to enjoy this with me? Is it taking too long? Am I doing something you dislike?" etc At some point,stoop (may I call you stoop?), you might have to get harsh because, whether she intends to or not, she IS breaking the marriage vows by not fulfilling you in this way. Go take any decent book on relationships off a shelf and read it for yourself. It'll be there. And it IS doing a number on you. Now you are thinking about having an affair. I would NOT say that to your W YET but if push comes to shove, maybe you will need to. Maybe you should get a book and highlight the parts that talk about this need and how it is unfair and dangerous to not fulfill it and show it to her. Or, just get her to read a good relationship book and see if the light dawns on her. I realize that she may have something going on that interferes with her desires. However, even then, she should be willing to get the problem diagnosed and FIXED. Really, anybody who takes the stand that a wife or husband for that matter does not "owe" their spouse sexual fulfillment is just dead full of s**t in my book. It's part of the deal. I understand your feelings about contemplating an affair. But PLEASE don't make that mistake. Divorce if you must, but don't turn yourself into the bad guy in the process. You KNOW that I understand your frustration. Man I hope you can work this out.
Art_Critic Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Yes, counselling might help, but I don't want to do that alone. Almost all of the posters to this thread have given advice that suggests going to a counselor.. You would be wise to explore that possibility as it might be the only avenue that will work. During my marriage I started going to MC alone.. in the beginning I was going to try and fix/save the marriage , She did go to some sessions.. but for the most part I went to most of them alone.. for 2 years.. As therapy progressed the focus turned from how to fix the marriage to how to get out of this marriage.. I am sooo happy today that I went.. See.. MC was a success for me as I learned the marriage was broken and the issues my wife had ( bi-polar ) were not going to fix themselves and I needed to end the marriage. I think you need to evaluate the possibility further
luvstarved Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 I have done relationship counseling both alone and together over the years/relationships and here is what I think. 1) Make sure you have rapport and shared philosophy with the counselor or you are going to decide that ONE of you is full of crap (you or the counselor) 2) The danger of going alone is that the counselor more or less only hears one side of the story which makes the conclusion that getting out is what is best for YOU pretty likely 3) my experience with couples counseling is that there is a tendency for one partner to be fully engaged in the process all the way up to the point that the spotlight shines on them. Then it's a waste of time and the counselor becomes an idiot. 4) Do some research and get some referrals, please! I don't mean to sound derogatory, but I will. Counseling is one of those professions in which it is really hard to gauge competence. Your marriage is delicate enough without putting it into the hands of some boob with a credential. And they are out there, lots of them. It is a good suggestion that works for many, but certainly not all. You can probably surmise that I didn't think much of my experiences with it. But it is certainly worth a try. God knows you need to try things!
LVspecB Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Background: My wife and I haven't been intimate in many years. I didn't have to read any further than that sentence. It makes as much sense as if you'd written "My wife has been pummeling me with a baseball bat for many years". Any sensible person would ask...why? You are being just as betrayed and cheated as the poor sap whose wife is sleeping with the pool boy, gardner and personal trainer. The question that should be asked here is not "Why would she do it?" but rather "Why would you (or anyone) put up with it?" Get you ass into your bedroom tonite and tell her that either you resume a normal, healthy, intimate relationship NOW or you're gone. Her choice. No more hoping, moping, brooding, resenting, "going to bed early", "I'm too tired". If she won't help to get things back on track, then you have your answer. And unless you are willing to be celibate for the rest of your life, your options are few. Stoop, time to get going... LVspecB
a4a Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Get you ass into your bedroom tonite and tell her that either you resume a normal, healthy, intimate relationship NOW or you're gone. Her choice. No more hoping, moping, brooding, resenting, "going to bed early", "I'm too tired". If she won't help to get things back on track, then you have your answer. And unless you are willing to be celibate for the rest of your life, your options are few. Stoop, time to get going... LVspecB Word! She may have issues but it is time for HER to step up to the plate and resolve them. Perhaps if she still chooses to not be intimate with you then you should chat about you going outside your M for intimate experiences. She may very well agree to such an arrangement. I am saying this because you seem determined to stay in this M regardless if it is just a friendship or not.........years... ....... and yeah she could at least give you a freakin' hand job... she has some lame ass excuses that either are a complete cop out or she has some very very deep issues and needs to go to a shrink. At this point it is all up to her to decide, isn't it?
Mz. Pixie Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Get you ass into your bedroom tonite and tell her that either you resume a normal, healthy, intimate relationship NOW or you're gone. Her choice. No more hoping, moping, brooding, resenting, "going to bed early", "I'm too tired". If she won't help to get things back on track, then you have your answer. And unless you are willing to be celibate for the rest of your life, your options are few. Stoop, time to get going... LVspecB Yeah, what he said. Seriously SG, I'm really proud of you- because this is what I was trying to talk you into doing all along. And you branched out and did it, but just not firmly enough. I think it was fine to start off easy about it. But since she didn't respond to your gentle talk, then it's time to kick it up a notch. Tell her you're not willing to live the rest of your life that way- and what does she suggest to fix it??? Because you're NOT going to live like that. That's one of the most pitiful things I've read, really. If she wasn't going to ML then she should have said so up front. The minute you made an advance. Not strung you along to only say that she was too tired. Geeze. You should have rolled over and masturbated LOUDLY. Then, if she questioned you say "Well, if you're not going to please me, I'm going to please myself- but this is the last time I'm going to do it. Next time it will be someone else doing it if you won't" I kinda got horny just reading your description of what went on, and I'm certainly not your W. I was just kinda thinking that if my husband did that then I'd be all over him!!!! He wouldn't have to try that hard though. There was a long time poster here named Tudor who doesn't come back too much lately but he once told his wife "I'm going to be having oral sex- I hope it will be you that's sucking my *ick" or something hilarious like that. She should have offered to please you orally or manually since she built up the steam, and the fact that she didn't is heartless and cruel. That just makes me furious and it's not even happening to me. A blowjob or handjob would have taken only a few minutes of her time and apparently you haven't been worth that to her in ages.
Guest Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 She may have an underlying issue, but the simple fact of the matter is that you're going to have to give her a wake up call. Anger is an emotional tool, and it's meant to be used to set boundaries, not suppressed. Getting angry isn't "bad". Too many people are raised to suppress thier anger. It causes nothing but problems in life.
Romeo Must Die Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 If my husband ever said that he was going to have an affair or divorce me, I'd have begged him to divorce me first. Please kill me first before you tell me you love another woman. Infidelity is a soul destroyer. I'm giving you fair warning that if you cross that line, it will inevitably shatter all the intamacy in you like a bomb. You'll do and say things you'd never imagine. It will change you. You will destroy her and you will destroy yourself in the process. You will never be able to take it back. You will never have again what you have right now with her. I am betting things didnt get this way overnight, nor will they be resolved in an equal amount of time. That is hardly fair. The first problem you have is talking about your intimate problems with other people other than your wife. She didnt say she didnt care, she just said she was tired. You also quietly resent her for holding out on you, and for failing your test (which was not very scientific anyway) because you already know there are problems and you are quitely setting her up to fail your test so you can have an affair and justify it later. This is just an accident waiting to happen. There could be a million reasons *why* and you havent even tried to figure it out because you are too focused on the other part of yourself and not the marriage.
whichwayisup Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 You said you dont' like to be "harsh" with her, but how about showing her some real emotions? Not just anger and frustration, but PAIN. Speak from your heart, tell her that you're having thoughts of other women because she's not being intimate with you. Ask her WHY she isn't into sex anymore...It could be as simple as she's lost that Lovin' Feelin' in general, maybe she doesn't feel sexual anymore, I don't know...But, you can't sit there and let this go on for much longer because where your mind is going, COULD lead to an affair...Not saying you're gonna cheat, but I'm sure you're tempted. Maybe you both could spice it up and go see a sex therapist together? That could be just fun to do too as well as she can 'work' on that aspect of finding that passion inside again.
carmaenforcer Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 No, no, noooo! That's completely and totally unacceptable. Your sex life is dead. At this point, I think you have no choice but to cheat, leave now, or leave in 4 more years when your daughter is off to college. You wife is NOT going to have sex with you. Look what you've been reduced to. Trying to see if you can "score" with the wife! I hope you truly realize how f*cked up this is. And yet if you cheat, it will be your fault .. yep. Can you believe this? True dat!!!
sourgirl Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Infidelity is a soul destroyer. i second that. i understand how you feel - to a lesser degree, but i know how much it hurts. however, i truly believe that if you cheat you will hurt tenfold. i've had this talk with my SO and it is very difficult, on both sides. my only advice is to focus on finding the root of the problem instead of laying blame and making threats. i hope that you don't want her to do something she isn't comfortable with - i can't imagine it would be very satisfying to have her give you a blowjob knowing that she's hating every second of it, and i suspect that might aggravate the problem and make her feel worse about herself than she already does. i know how important sex is in a relationship, but maybe you can use a word like "intimacy" so that it feels and sounds closer to the heart. if she loves you then she will want you to feel wanted, she won't want you to feel pain and rejection, and hopefully she will be open to fixing the issues you're facing. start with lots of "i feel" statements, not "you" statements (a councellor's gonna tell you that anyways) and that's a good place to start. she can't deny how you feel, and maybe she'll use some of her own and you'll be let in a little. if you don't find a solution then i imagine you'll eventually leaver her, but i think you'll feel better about your decision to go if you know what brought it on. and i guarantee you'll feel better if you stayed faithful through it all.
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