JackJack Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 and this is why I can look at my cheating friend and not feel one bit of ill will towards him. I can see why some people do indeed cheat. I don't agree with it but I certainly understand why. Perhaps if I were in his shoes I would cheat too? I thought you already were? Oh thats right, you were telling us you were cheating on your H with his friend for sh*ts and giggles.
stoopid_guy Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 and this is why I can look at my cheating friend and not feel one bit of ill will towards him. I can see why some people do indeed cheat. I don't agree with it but I certainly understand why. Perhaps if I were in his shoes I would cheat too?There ya go. He'd probably even tell you it's "wrong" himself. Oh my god. What color is the sky in your world? No one keeps cheating from their spouse in the interest of another's happiness. They do it for the same reason they're cheating, for their own happiness. They are protecting themselves from the consequences of their actions. Wow.My sky is a lovely blue today. Your's? And I'm sure you've never hidden anything from an SO for their own piece of mind either.
JamesM Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 Oh my god. What color is the sky in your world? No one keeps cheating from their spouse in the interest of another's happiness. They do it for the same reason they're cheating, for their own happiness. They are protecting themselves from the consequences of their actions. Wow. Tongue in cheek perhaps for stoopid guy's comments?
portableversion Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 I think you guys have unrealistic expectations. Put down the porn and come back to reality. OP, let the wife shove something in YOUR ASS first. Then ask for anal.
LVspecB Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 I think you guys have unrealistic expectations. Put down the porn and come back to reality. If having a healthy, loving sexual relationship is "porn" in your world (I guess "porn" is a code word for an over-hyped, unrealistic expectation), then what is your "reality" ??? LVspecB
stoopid_guy Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 Complain about a frigid spouse and you'll get laughter. Complain about a cheating spouse and you'll get "Oh you poor thing! leave the b@$tard/b!tch!!!" Boo-hoo I think you guys have unrealistic expectations. Put down the porn and come back to reality. Ok, so not always laughter....
Pink_Tulip Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Stoopid guy, I think your assertation that what the other poster did was 'coersion' was a bit overly dramatic. I really don't consider it coersion when you very clearly and strongly discuss your needs with your spouse. I think most people would prefer a spouse to come to them and say, 'this has gotten so bad I have considered cheating,' over finding out the partner is involved in a full blown affair. As far as women not wanting sex. I think we as a society have done a terrible disservice to women. We tell them from a young age that men are all horn dogs and only care about one thing. And that attitude is portrayed perfectly on nonsensical networks like MTV. Growing up with this message, it makes sense that every wife that is confronted by a frustrated husband immediately feels she is being objectified. No where in our society do we discuss how important sex and intimacy are within a marriage, and honestly, most women simply do not get this, b/c we have been trained our entire lives to see sex as a way we are objectified. I think the other poster did the exact right thing. He clearly stated his needs, told his wife how important it was, WHY it was important, and left it open for discussion. And when his wife finally got the importance of it all, she made a serious effort to change. It doesn't sound to me like she is having obligatory sex. As I said in another thread, sometimes you just have to sit your partner down and really lay it out for them with brutal honesty. JMO.
luvstarved Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Yes I agree Pink. I was in a sexless marriage for 7 years and it was not until I confronted my husband and informed him that I could not deal with it any more and that I WOULD LEAVE if things did not change, that things started to change. I made it clear to my H though that I was not demanding sex from him, I was only informing him that this was a need I could not go without and if he wasn't interested in working on this issue, I HAD to leave! So I think it is a GOOD thing to make the importance of this issue clear. My marital "recovery" is in the early stages and I don't honestly know yet whether it will be sustained...my opinion on that changes almost daily - but at least for cripes sake now we are getting SOMEWHERE! Our entire relationship has improved since that talk and though progress is slow, at least now there is real hope! It seemed to at least OPEN THE GATE to increased intimacy and openness. My husband has not entirely stepped through the gate, but I think he is starting to show some interest... It certainly isn't easy trying to get to the truth and being honest and open, these are difficult things to talk about, but it seems to me that it is the RIGHT thing to do. In the end, as another poster said, at least you've been honest so you don't have to think "maybe I shoulda said..." etc and in general I think that TELLING the truth increases your chances of BEING TOLD the truth, which is in the end, what you have to work with, whether you know it or not!!!
stoopid_guy Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Stoopid guy, I think your assertation that what the other poster did was 'coersion' was a bit overly dramatic. I really don't consider it coersion when you very clearly and strongly discuss your needs with your spouse. I think most people would prefer a spouse to come to them and say, 'this has gotten so bad I have considered cheating,' over finding out the partner is involved in a full blown affair.Clearly stating your needs is fine. Your spouse can't read your mind. BUT "We either get things back to a more normal sex life or my options are I cheat on you or we get a divorce" is coercion. From Yahoo dictionary: co·erceTo force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel. And I'll admit, it might seem strange to some that I'd consider coercion for sex worse than cheating. I am simply not capable of threatening anyone for sex, period. But I strongly believe I'm capable of cheating. Which would she prefer? I don't know, and will not ask. As far as women not wanting sex. I think we as a society have done a terrible disservice to women. We tell them from a young age that men are all horn dogs and only care about one thing. And that attitude is portrayed perfectly on nonsensical networks like MTV. Growing up with this message, it makes sense that every wife that is confronted by a frustrated husband immediately feels she is being objectified. No where in our society do we discuss how important sex and intimacy are within a marriage, and honestly, most women simply do not get this, b/c we have been trained our entire lives to see sex as a way we are objectified.I couldn't agree more. But other than showing her I love her, and explaining to her that without initimacy I might "know" she loves me but just can't "feel" that she loves me, there's nothing I can do. She doesn't think it's important. It's almost 2:00 AM here, I get up for work at 5:00 AM, and I'm up worrying about what to do. We haven't been intimate in years, and she doesn't think it matters.
Hard2Think Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Stoopid_Guy, Years with no intimacy?? What's compelling you to stay in that relationship ..? And what, I wonder, could the wife possibly say if indeed she caught you cheating?
JamesM Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 I really don't consider it coersion when you very clearly and strongly discuss your needs with your spouse. I think most people would prefer a spouse to come to them and say, 'this has gotten so bad I have considered cheating,' over finding out the partner is involved in a full blown affair. Pink Amulet, I think this is very true. Unfortunately, most women or men do not take the angry/frustrated spouse seriously until something drastic such as an affair occurs. As far as women not wanting sex. I think we as a society have done a terrible disservice to women. We tell them from a young age that men are all horn dogs and only care about one thing. And that attitude is portrayed perfectly on nonsensical networks like MTV. Growing up with this message, it makes sense that every wife that is confronted by a frustrated husband immediately feels she is being objectified. No where in our society do we discuss how important sex and intimacy are within a marriage, and honestly, most women simply do not get this, b/c we have been trained our entire lives to see sex as a way we are objectified. Excellent comment. I think you guys have unrealistic expectations. Put down the porn and come back to reality. Mrs. PV, is it unhealthy and unrealistic to expect that sex was part of the marriage commitment? OP, let the wife shove something in YOUR ASS first. Then ask for anal. Now this is a crude but good way to say it. Mrs. PV has a point. Anal sex can be compared to a prostate exam for many women. But I strongly believe I'm capable of cheating. SG, we all are...men and women. The day doesn't start out with a decision to cheat. It is a progression that needs a decision prior to the final act. I believe that KNOWING that we can cheat can actually help prevent us from cheating. If you think you cannot cheat, you will not be as inclined to stop the little things that lead to cheating, because you "know" you will never cheat. But other than showing her I love her, and explaining to her that without initimacy I might "know" she loves me but just can't "feel" that she loves me, there's nothing I can do. She doesn't think it's important. It's almost 2:00 AM here, I get up for work at 5:00 AM, and I'm up worrying about what to do. We haven't been intimate in years, and she doesn't think it matters. And SG, she will be utterly horrified if you do cheat. She will say that she has no clue why you did when you had it so good at home. Or she will say that you just wanted sex all of the time. Sex and intimacy are a very important part of marriage. Anyone who thinks differently either doesn't want it...or has enough of it.
catgirl1927 Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 And I'm sure you've never hidden anything from an SO for their own piece of mind either. It's "peace," not "piece," and I think that sort of explains your issues. I really can't think of anything I've done that I need to hide. I don't cheat on my SO. This is very interesting, you have confirmed everything I have ever believed about cheaters.
stoopid_guy Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Years with no intimacy?? What's compelling you to stay in that relationship ..? And what, I wonder, could the wife possibly say if indeed she caught you cheating? Reasons: Kid, pets, home, inertia, and I do get along with the wife in most regards. If she caught me cheating, I don't know what she'd say. I really think though she wouldn't say or do anything unless there was hard (no pun intended) proof and/or it embarrassed her to her friends. All her needs are met, but she does care about appearances. At one time, we got to the point we were sleeping in separate rooms, but then she wanted me back in her bed because she was afraid our daughter would notice and mention it to a friend. Appearances are very important to her. The day doesn't start out with a decision to cheat. It is a progression that needs a decision prior to the final act. I believe that KNOWING that we can cheat can actually help prevent us from cheating. If you think you cannot cheat, you will not be as inclined to stop the little things that lead to cheating, because you "know" you will never cheat. I'm not so sure. Even knowing I could hasn't discouraged me from those "little things." My closest friends at work are two ladies, even though the majority in the company are men. Part of it is that I'm simply more comfortable around women, but I'll confess they're both appealing to me physically too, and I did ask one of them out. (She said no.) One of those two ladies is the only RL person I've talked to about our intimacy issues, and also the only person in the office that knows I've talked to a divorce lawyer. Knowing you could cheat would reduce the chances of it though if your heart was set against cheating. And SG, she will be utterly horrified if you do cheat. She will say that she has no clue why you did when you had it so good at home. Or she will say that you just wanted sex all of the time. Possible, I just don't know. Sex and intimacy are a very important part of marriage. Anyone who thinks differently either doesn't want it...or has enough of it. Amen!!! It's "peace," not "piece," and I think that sort of explains your issues. Proof of Freudian-slip typos!!!
Pink_Tulip Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 SG- what you are doing is controlling the information your wife has, then blaming her for her behavior. Then you justify this by stating that honesty is, in fact, coersion. Please read your own definition. When did anyone here tell you to FORCE your wife to do anything? Telling her honestly how you feel is giving her information so she can make an informed decision. Everyone here is telling you that she truly does not get how important sex and intimacy are in a marriage. But rather than listen, you hold yourself up as some sort of suffering martyr, blaming her choices for your pain. Sorry, you only get to complain if she has all the information and still chooses to neglect you. Hoping she becomes psychic one day is on YOU, not her. Just my two cents. And James, wrong 'Pink.'
Guest Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 But other than showing her I love her, and explaining to her that without initimacy I might "know" she loves me but just can't "feel" that she loves me, there's nothing I can do. She doesn't think it's important. It's almost 2:00 AM here, I get up for work at 5:00 AM, and I'm up worrying about what to do. We haven't been intimate in years, and she doesn't think it matters. SG: In your heart of hearts, do you REALLY believe this to be true? That "She doesn't think it's important" and that "she doesn't think it matters"? The real question should not be "Why does she feel this way?" but rather why is this position so important to her that she states it in the face of much information to the contrary. Denial of intimacy is the symptom - what's the illness? LVspecB
Hard2Think Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 I think it's because a poster here suggested giving his wife an ulimatum. Either have more sex with him or he leaves. While she's not forced - she'll have sex with him most likely not because she wants it or likes it, but because she doesn't want him to leave. It's like a woman telling her husband he better buy her flowers or she leaves. He may buy her flowers after that, but his wife will know he's not doing it to show appreciation. He's doing it to avoid a divorce. And so like the sex in the above situation - the flowers really won't carry the meaning that they would ordinarily convey and the gesture becomes hollow and meaningless. SG- what you are doing is controlling the information your wife has, then blaming her for her behavior. Then you justify this by stating that honesty is, in fact, coersion. Please read your own definition. When did anyone here tell you to FORCE your wife to do anything? Telling her honestly how you feel is giving her information so she can make an informed decision. Everyone here is telling you that she truly does not get how important sex and intimacy are in a marriage. But rather than listen, you hold yourself up as some sort of suffering martyr, blaming her choices for your pain. Sorry, you only get to complain if she has all the information and still chooses to neglect you. Hoping she becomes psychic one day is on YOU, not her. Just my two cents. And James, wrong 'Pink.'
Pink_Tulip Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 So rather than be honest and talk about how important this is, it is better to be miserable and resent your spouse? That is an excuse. I don't believe anyone on here suggested giving her an ultimatum, either. All anyone has said is, be HONEST with her. If one poster gave an ultimatum and shared their story, great. There are MANY different ways of discussing this issue. To simply say, 'b/c he did it that way, that is the ONLY way,' is lazy thinking. Blame her for the problem, so no one really has to deal with it. That always works... (not directing this at you, just in general)
a4a Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 I think it's because a poster here suggested giving his wife an ulimatum. Either have more sex with him or he leaves. While she's not forced - she'll have sex with him most likely not because she wants it or likes it, but because she doesn't want him to leave. It's like a woman telling her husband he better buy her flowers or she leaves. He may buy her flowers after that, but his wife will know he's not doing it to show appreciation. He's doing it to avoid a divorce. And so like the sex in the above situation - the flowers really won't carry the meaning that they would ordinarily convey and the gesture becomes hollow and meaningless. there is a huge difference between a sudden " I am leaving if you do not have sex with me" ultimatum and addressing the problem honestly. I am not happy because I no longer feel close to you. I think part of it has quite a bit to do with the fact that we no longer make love. I feel alone, I feel hurt, I feel like you just don't even want me in your life. I cannot take feeling so hurt and unwanted. Sex to me is a way that you do show that you care about me, that you want me. It may not be to you but it is to me. And I need and miss it. I miss you showing me that you love me. You could exchange the word sex for attention, for gifts, for flowers even. If your spouse is not aware how much something means to you then you cannot expect them to read your mind. If they flat out refuse to understand or deny their lack of giving is painful to you then they may just need to see how seriously hurt you are. And there is no reason that they should not want to fulfill your needs if they indeed really can (realisticaly, does not go against their moral/priciples, phys. able) And if they just flat out refuse...... well IMHO they really truly don't give a rats ass about you or your M. Then it is time to pack your bags and call a lawyer. This is not a matter where you can say " well they should just know or do naturally.....they may not know how important it is to you and to the survival of your marriage....... sex or anything else.
Pink_Tulip Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Thanks a4a, you said it a lot better than I did.
stoopid_guy Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 Yup, a4a said it very well. In my case, I have told her how I felt about intimacy, and repeatedly. I have not (and will not) make it an ultimatum though. In that regard, I guess i'm not being totally open either.
Tulie Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 I think in some ways you are looking for justification to have an affair. If you have not sat her down and been completely honest with her then she has no way of knowing just how dire this situation has become. I don't think you should sit her down and say sex or else. I do however think you owe it to yourself and her and your children and pets and home and everything else you hold so important, to sit her down and say, this is what I have come to. You are open enough with female co-workers to tell them that you have spoken to a divorce lawyer and that you have considered an affair, have even asked one of them out. Yet, you have not shared any of this information with your wife. You find it easier to simply sneak around behind her back. You say yu don't know how she would feel if she caught you in an affair. No one has ever had an affair behind my back but I can certainly tell you how I would feel if they did. Violated, betrayed at the deepest level, angry beyond words. And I do have an open (to some extent) marriage. But, still to find out my husband did something behind my back would be awful, I can't think of many things more awful, and I was a widow...so I know how high the bar of awful goes. Take her away for a weekend away from the kids and the pets and the house and the bills and work and sit down and be candid with her. Tell her what is on your mind, not some stupid female co-worker whos pants you want into. In short, grow a set before you take the cowards way out. It would be easier to have an affair. It would be easier to be caught, that puts the onus of divorce in her court. If you can't do that, show her the thread so she can see where your mind is. Be honest before you do the most dishonest thing you can think of.
stoopid_guy Posted October 6, 2006 Posted October 6, 2006 I think in some ways you are looking for justification to have an affair. If you have not sat her down and been completely honest with her then she has no way of knowing just how dire this situation has become. I don't think you should sit her down and say sex or else. I do however think you owe it to yourself and her and your children and pets and home and everything else you hold so important, to sit her down and say, this is what I have come to. You are open enough with female co-workers to tell them that you have spoken to a divorce lawyer and that you have considered an affair, have even asked one of them out. Yet, you have not shared any of this information with your wife. You find it easier to simply sneak around behind her back. You say yu don't know how she would feel if she caught you in an affair. No one has ever had an affair behind my back but I can certainly tell you how I would feel if they did. Violated, betrayed at the deepest level, angry beyond words. And I do have an open (to some extent) marriage. But, still to find out my husband did something behind my back would be awful, I can't think of many things more awful, and I was a widow...so I know how high the bar of awful goes. Take her away for a weekend away from the kids and the pets and the house and the bills and work and sit down and be candid with her. Tell her what is on your mind, not some stupid female co-worker whos pants you want into. In short, grow a set before you take the cowards way out. It would be easier to have an affair. It would be easier to be caught, that puts the onus of divorce in her court. If you can't do that, show her the thread so she can see where your mind is. Be honest before you do the most dishonest thing you can think of. I suspect that if she knew how I felt, she'd be willing to have sex to save the marriage, to save the lifestyle she has, to keep her cook, gardener, and handy-man around. As H2T put it, that would be hollow and meaningless. I don't want to have sex, I want to make love. I want to be appreciated as more than a source of money, cook, gardener, and handy-man. A post script; She actually kissed me when I got home tonight. On the cheek, but still more affection than usual. Pleasant, but I should ask her why.
Tulie Posted October 6, 2006 Posted October 6, 2006 Why in the world would you put it to her like that and make her explain why she did something nice? Why not instead just simply tell her that it was really pleasant for you and that you wish she would do that more? Maybe you just have no clue how to communicate with women. Maybe just maybe you should look into MC or at least C for yourself. You have the perfect opportunity to express something good but instead you want to put her on the defensive.
stoopid_guy Posted October 6, 2006 Posted October 6, 2006 Why in the world would you put it to her like that and make her explain why she did something nice? Why not instead just simply tell her that it was really pleasant for you and that you wish she would do that more? Maybe you just have no clue how to communicate with women. Maybe just maybe you should look into MC or at least C for yourself. You have the perfect opportunity to express something good but instead you want to put her on the defensive. First you're saying I should communicate more, now you're saying I shouldn't try to find out how she feels? Have to admit, I was too surprised to say anything when it happened.
Hard2Think Posted October 6, 2006 Posted October 6, 2006 I think he indicated that he did express his feelings about the matter. I can tell you that in my case, I made it very clear (or so I thought) that the lack of sex and intimacy were a very big problem from me and for our relationship. I know she heard me because occasionally, she would acknowledge it and promise to do improve things - but she never would. Other times, she would just roll her eyes and tell me that if I don't like things the way they are, then maybe I should leave a.k.a "take it or leave it". So my point is simply that making this clear to the spouse does not always change anything. I didn't in my case .. I think in some ways you are looking for justification to have an affair. If you have not sat her down and been completely honest with her then she has no way of knowing just how dire this situation has become. I don't think you should sit her down and say sex or else. I do however think you owe it to yourself and her and your children and pets and home and everything else you hold so important, to sit her down and say, this is what I have come to. You are open enough with female co-workers to tell them that you have spoken to a divorce lawyer and that you have considered an affair, have even asked one of them out. Yet, you have not shared any of this information with your wife. You find it easier to simply sneak around behind her back. You say yu don't know how she would feel if she caught you in an affair. No one has ever had an affair behind my back but I can certainly tell you how I would feel if they did. Violated, betrayed at the deepest level, angry beyond words. And I do have an open (to some extent) marriage. But, still to find out my husband did something behind my back would be awful, I can't think of many things more awful, and I was a widow...so I know how high the bar of awful goes. Take her away for a weekend away from the kids and the pets and the house and the bills and work and sit down and be candid with her. Tell her what is on your mind, not some stupid female co-worker whos pants you want into. In short, grow a set before you take the cowards way out. It would be easier to have an affair. It would be easier to be caught, that puts the onus of divorce in her court. If you can't do that, show her the thread so she can see where your mind is. Be honest before you do the most dishonest thing you can think of.
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