30 YO Son still at Home, Dropping Out

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Ross K,

 

One theory of Social Anxiety is that there is a cause of the feelings of anxiety.

 

Perhaps you are not really interested in changing from having Social Anxiety. It seems your life is managable at this time.

 

If you were interested in becoming less Anxious about social situations, one approach could be to understand the various motivations and goals of social interaction. Something about Social Interaction is making you nervous.

 

Many people who start the Dale Carnegie course, feel nervous at first. The Dale carnegie course has books: HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE; HOW TO STOP WORRYING AND START LIVING; and EFFECTIVE PUBLIC SPEAKING. You could get the books at a library, or used off the internet.

 

What I mean by communication, is being comfortable with communicating with others. Certainly you had enough vocabulary to talk earlier in life.

 

It is also understaning the motivations of others, that has helped me to feel more comfortable in social situations. I did not have a natural gift for adroitly handling many social situations. I have too often felt, and actually appeared, foolish, by saying the wrong things. I have failed to understand Anger, Sorrow, Fear, Resentment and other human emotions. I have failed to give appropriately respectful and encouraging responses, questions and conversation to individuals for whose motivations, I failed to accurately predict. I found the SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL by L Ron Hubbard to be helpful in being able to better evaluate the feelings of others, and have more confidence in a succssful conversation with people.

 

A number of researchers in understanding human interaction have developed scales of attitudes. By understanding the attitude of the individual you are interacting with, you are able to make other predictions about the individual, fairly accuratley, because the attitude of an individual carries over to many aspects of thinking about Life,

 

My wife and son are often in Resentment, and anger may be a manner in which I could better relate to them. Not necessarily yelling, but just something like, "Well what makes me angry is..."

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Craig,

 

There is much wisdom in your post. I am not able to fully respond to all your ideas at this moment, but I did want to let you know sooner, that many of your comments are close to the mark.

 

Thanks

[Ross_K]

Perhaps you are not really interested in changing from having Social Anxiety. It seems your life is managable at this time.

 

I'm definatley interested in changing from having social anxiety. Yes, my life is pretty managable at this time but only because I don't have one. The fact is I want a life, I don't want to be like this forever.

 

Plus, I still sometimes have to go into anxiety provoking situations anyway.

 

I'm taking meds, I'm on a waiting list for a psychologist, and I also listen to hypnosis CD's, so, I'll see how this goes, hopefully there'll be a really big improvement.

 

I also really lack motivation and will power, which also makes it very hard to get anywhere in life. Is this because I could suffer from depression, or something else? I dunno.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Craig,

 

Entering individual counseling sounds constructive.

 

I am thinking of what goals might be helpful for my counseling.

 

How can I better structure my interaction with my family members, so as to increase thier productivity, and receive increased respect from them?

 

I will give counseling goals more thought.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Ross K,

 

If you wish to change your social Anxiety, Several aproaches come to mind.

 

One concept is that there may be a trigger point that activates your anxiety.

 

To understand the starting point of the anxiety, you might keep a journal of the situations in which the Anxiety starts to rise.

 

If you are not motivated, you might try some energizing activities. Exercise briefly, or however long it might take to get motivatedd.

 

The Freudian approach would be to assume ther was an event in your past that was being brought up into current feelings. Onc eyou identiry the past traumatic event, you can put the event into better perspective.

 

NLP is similar, in that a visualization of some real or imagined event, a subroutine, is activated by some series of events, which causes your anxiety. By paying attention to your visualizations during an increase in anxiety, you might find the illogical vision, and then see if you can substitue a better vision.

 

You may feel that people might not like you, and when a social situation is being considered, a subroutine of someone not liking you might present a short mental video, which raises your anxiety.

 

Ther is a country song, Batter Up, Swing Batter, Swing. You are going to strike put a few times, but eventually, you will find some people who do like you.

 

Richard Bandler essentially balanced the choice, as you say No Life,. versus a life where there are some rejcetions, but there are also some constructive interchanges and friendships.

[Craig]

Dear Craig,

 

Entering individual counseling sounds constructive.

 

I am thinking of what goals might be helpful for my counseling.

 

How can I better structure my interaction with my family members, so as to increase thier productivity, and receive increased respect from them?

 

I will give counseling goals more thought.

Goals schmoals! You are procrastinating again, just do it as soon as possible. Giving things some thought is what got you here in the first place.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Craig,

 

Thank you for encouraging Individual counseling for me.

 

In your words of enthusiasm for IC, there are several imbedded assumptions.

 

One assumption is that my procrastinating tendencies have created problems for my family. If you have concepts to discuss on that issue, I would be interested. I am engaging my wife and my son in discussions of their shortfalls.

 

My wife is failing to maximize her parenting input. My wife is providing overly ample nurturing, without asking for accountability from our son, who has recently dropped out of college. He earned credits over the summer. He plans to return in the Spring Semester, and graduate in the Fall. My concern is my son's analysis of his budget, earnings and impact on his parent's retirement savings (Mine).

 

I have offered to sit doown for lunch with each of them, and they say next week is better. My wife and son have their shortcomings, independent of my tendencies to procrastinate. I am not the one dragging my feet on these issues. They don't have budgets that I have requested. I may put their budget on Excell.

 

Another imbedded assumption in your enthusiasm for IC is that progress can ONLY be made through counseling with an actual counselor. I have been in Individual and marriage counseling, off an on, over the years, and I find that I can use self-help books for self-improvement in a more time-efficient manner.

 

A further imbedded assumption is that counselors can make no mistakes. I have often had to spend some energy recovering from bad advice from a counselor. Some counselors, seem to practice a technique of deliberately giving bad advice, in the belief that there is progress made by working through the inappropriate advice.

 

So my first step in considering counseling, is to establish goals for counseling. Then I evaluate what solo-self-improvement might be available.

 

One goal of my seeking counseling now, could be just to create the concept of self-improvement to my wife and son, through counseling. Since they are both resistant to couseling, my example might be positive, in itself.

 

Another imbedded principle in your enthusiasm for IC is that my opinions are incorrect, and can only be assisted by professional help. I have a tendency to think of ideas in a make-wrong concept. I enjoy showing how others are wrong. I have a couple of Bi-Polar friends who are not as diligent with their medications as they coud be. They have make-wrong tendencies, which I enjoy in talking with them. But I am trying to help my friends process the make-wrong ideas furhter, before they alienate friends and family.

 

I am working on trying to identify my own Make-wrong ideas, and curb my expressions, until I have created a positive context for the concepts.

[alphamale]

Many people who start the Dale Carnegie course, feel nervous at first. The Dale carnegie course has books: HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE; HOW TO STOP WORRYING AND START LIVING; and EFFECTIVE PUBLIC SPEAKING. You could get the books at a library, or used off the internet.

Look AG....I took the Dale Carnegie course 4 yrs ago and read the books partially. It was fun and exciting and nerve-wracking. But in the end it was basically a waste of time. I had like 40 co-workers in the class and over the years kept on asking them if the class did them any good. Most answers were "no" or "very little".

[blind_otter]

I don't think those two things are analogous in any way.

 

I would imagine that if this man had some kind of mental illness (an anxiety that is crippling I would classify as a mental illness) then his parents would know about it & we'd be discussing a different issue here. Perhaps the OP will come back & clarify that point.

 

Sounds to me like a spoiled child (only child?) who is now a spoiled adult & has just never had to fend for himself.

 

Give me a break. His parents are partly responsible for their circumstances, OK? They are not these pathetic helpless little old people who are being lorded over by their spoiled baby boy. I mean, he is an adult, accountable for his choices and his circumstances....well so are his PARENTS! :lmao: come on, dude. WTF, chicken and egg much?

 

I would bet money that his parents are so delusional and deeply entrenched in denial that they wouldn't even be able to discern if he had any form of mental illness or not.

 

In fact, it really takes a lot of education and a certain aspect of progressive psychological awareness to even be sensitive to the needs of a mentally ill individual when they have been clearly diagnosed. I can't tell you how many men I worked with at the mental hospital who have GLARING histories of childhood bipolar or schizoaffective disorder that their families simply ignored. even in the face of criminal action against their children. Some of them continued the denial even after their child was diagnosed.

 

I'm just saying.

 

I mean just look at all the blame laying in the OP's most recent post. Look at all the over intellectualizing -- emotional distancing, much?

[Craig]

I am working on trying to identify my own Make-wrong ideas, and curb my expressions, until I have created a positive context for the concepts.

Has anyone ever said you talk and/or think too much?

 

What are you avoiding?

 

It is precisely your way of handling things that has landed you in the place you are in and therefore you do need to do things that you aren't doing. Repeating old patterns, looking to self-help books for answers, etc. is a really great way of avoiding that which you already (deep inside you) know what you need to do.

[bluechocolate]

Give me a break.

What? Like the one you're giving me here? Bad day or something??

His parents are partly responsible for their circumstances, OK?

Jeez! Care to point out where I said they weren't?

They are not these pathetic helpless little old people who are being lorded over by their spoiled baby boy. I mean, he is an adult, accountable for his choices and his circumstances....well so are his PARENTS! :lmao: come on, dude. WTF, chicken and egg much?

Yeah - WTF is exactly what I'm thinking.

 

I'm just saying.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Alpha Male,

 

Self-reporting is one way to evaluate performance.

 

What did their wives and family say? How do you find your co-workers to work with now? How do you find thier job performance? How do you find the work atmospheere on the job?

 

I noticed an improvement in my son's social skills. I feel it gives more self-control over social situations, such as refusing an extra drink or something stronger.

 

You seem to be posting from a make-wrong approach. Is it necessary to use the word for a female mother dog in you avatar? Some forums that are more sensitive to women's issues have blocked that word.

 

What types of people might benefit from dale Carnegie, more than others?

 

I think the Dale Carnegie class is too advanced for Ross K, at this point. But the books can be read, and the philosphy discussed in the forums. Social Anxiety is discussed in the Dale Carnegie books. What books on Social Anxiety would you recommend? What underlying causes of Social Anxiety miight you consider for Ross K?

 

What types of self-improvement have you found helpful?

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Craig,

 

Thanks for asking what I am avoiding.

 

I am trying to stay energised on getting small things done, to make things better. Procrastinating is partly putting off small things that can be done later, but will have to be done at some time. I try to create more free time, by getting more mandatory small things done sooner.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Blue Chocalate and Blind Otter,

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

One purpose of a diagnosis is that it leads to helpful medications.

 

My son had a diagnosis of ADHD as a teenager. ADHD sometimes means delayed maturity in establishing job skills.

 

My son did not do well on the medications we tried, at that time. I have mentioned to my son that there are now some newly developed meds for ADHD. My son is oppositionally opposed to Meds and Counseling.

 

I have had some luck with applying the principles of Dr. James Sutton's ODD principles. Primarily working in a planning, forward looking, discussions and avoiding criticism, or discussing the past. Dr. Sutton has a website and answers some E-mails.

 

My 30 YO son has a moderate level of functioning, and I am trying to encourage more improvements.

 

My power is to get myself better organized. So I am working on me, primarily.

[hotgurl]

Look AG....I took the Dale Carnegie course 4 yrs ago and read the books partially. It was fun and exciting and nerve-wracking. But in the end it was basically a waste of time. I had like 40 co-workers in the class and over the years kept on asking them if the class did them any good. Most answers were "no" or "very little".

 

I always though Dale Carnegie was a scam.

[Aquarius Guy]

For some people, the Dale Carnegie course would not provide much improvement. The skills and attitudes learned in Dale Carnegie can come naturally in your genes, or be learned in your family, social experiences, or from other training.

 

For me, I felt the Dale Carnegie course was helpful, and for others I know, I feel it was helpful.

 

I was trying to give Ross K a list of approaches to address his apparently seriously debilitating social anxiety.

 

One unanswered question is what is the best approach for Ross K? Another question is what steps toward self-reliance can I recommend for my son? What is better than Dale Carnegie for career advancement and self-reliance?

 

Ross K has not posted back, recently, but his main input for my son's lack of self-reliance was that a sudden ejection of my son from the house could have adverse consequences. Suicide is one adverse consequence, but there are many risk taking temptations for youngsters these days, that are exciting, yet have dangers. So I am inclined to proceed sequentally, for now, rather than abruptly.

 

I believe more in self-help, more than in counseling. I more utilize solo counseling, and internet forum rants and input.

 

I am struggling with the concept of make-wrong, resentment and oppositional defiant concepts, from my son. Perhaps a rule could be to form judgements of others, but to avoid disclosing anything but complimentary views.

 

My son sometimes makes uncomplimentary judgemental statements about my wife, his mother.

 

My father usually corrected me from saying any such comments about my mother. One phrase I might try is, "It is important for you to evaluate others. But is is also important for you to be able to get along with people. People have faults, attributes and weakneses. If we need to have a problem solving session, then we should make arrangements for that type of a session. Right now, I am discussing general planning."

[napoleandynamite]

i can understand where you are coming from, as my husband was in this position a couple years ago. he was 30, still living at home, attempting to finish college but kept dropping out on and off. his behavior was the reason why i almost terminated our relationship. once i informed him i was moving out of his life if he didn't get out of his parent's house, he got an apartment the next week (literally). there were some improvements on his behavior, we got married (recently) and today, he is going back to college at almost 33 years old. he still has a long way to go before he gets his bachelor degree and since he's older, he's not sure he's going to finish the program now.

 

what i'm trying to tell you is don't support your son anymore, waiting for him to someday finish college and grow up. it wont happen. he is taking complete advatage of you. in the meantime your not helping your son by accepting this behavior. you are accomodating his apathetic lifestyle and ensuring him future security he does not have to get serious about becoming an adult because you will find a way to carry him. even if he does get a degree in the next few years, a degree is not a guarentee he will find a well=paying job. I don't know what he does now, but without a degree, it's hard to move up and he already is lacking essential experience in the business world by living like a 19 YO.

 

I hope I m not coming up as "harsh", but I have seen this situation with my husband. Let me tell you, now that he's moved out almost three years, he's damn glad I pushed him to live like an adult on his own.

 

He is still your son, and you are still the parent. As a parent , you must guide him to do the right thing. Give your son two months notice to move out of your house (yes, forever) and give him $2000 to help him get on his feet-but THAT'S ALL. He needs to live like an adult, being he is one. You are not helping him by the arrangement you have going now. Don't you want to see your son grow, succeed, and become his own person? He needs his own identity at 30, as there is no excuse why anyone should live at home past 25-27 latest (except if it is temporary only or this is a sick/disabled person in the house that needs their care).

 

Remember, the more you feel bad for him, baby him, and let him live in your house, the less likely his is to grow up and get serious about being a decent member of society.

 

I hope this helps and I hope you make the right decision.

 

Good luck

[alphamale]

I always though Dale Carnegie was a scam.

it pretty much is...its ok for making you better a public speaking or feeling less nervous in front of a group doing a presentation. but thats about it.

[Aquarius Guy]

Dear Napolean Dynamite,

 

Thanks for a thoughtful post. Thanks for sharing your expereince. I am trying to sit down with my son more often to discuss his long term plans.

 

Your suggestions of methods seems kind. yet firm.

[Aquarius Guy]

My son was somewhat open at our second luncheon session.

 

I first acknowledged my own faults, of finding perspectives to make others appear wrong. I suggested that my son point out any time we needed to change subjects, if I was making him uncomfortable.

 

The question I presented to my son, was, "How can he best use the time during which I can be supportive to his educational efforts?"

 

A better question, could be, "How can he get a college degree in the shortest amount of time?"

 

I pointed out that as he stays living at home longer, he is setting himself up to feel obligated to take care of his mother and I, if we, or she, needs assistance later in our old-age.

 

A better question might be, "How can I be sure I am not adversely impacting Mom and Dad's Savings for retirement?"

 

My son seemed like he might be willing to discuss the challenges that his desired girl friend is laying out for him. I picked up some relationship-building info of e-Bay, and may try to improve my own marriage, as I give him pointers/ideas. If my son had a better relationahip with a young lady, it might be easier to boost him out of the house.