Hard2Think - Part II : Trying to Reconcile with W

[JamesM]

When men complain that they don't get enough sex from their wives and girlfriends trust me - it's because the sex you provide isn't that great. We need it just like you do but if we are not turned on it's hard for us to want to get into it. Do you ever wonder why some guys don't have to spend a dime and are constantly getting laid? It's because of their skills in bed.

 

Herein lies my dilemma. If I am not getting enough sex because of a lack of skills, how am I supposed to improve if I don't get any sex? And if a man is good in bed, how did he gain his skills...from just the woman to whom he is married? How did he learn from her...unless she taught him what she liked? So, clear this up...I am poor in bed (and I will grant you this), so she won't have sex...yet I am only supposed to have sex with her, so I cannot improve my skills. If she won't teach me, Then I am SOL.

 

I remember well a email friend who talked about her boyfriend (whom she found out visited prostitutes) being so incredible in bed. Duh, yeah, where did you think he learned his skills?

 

Just a thought.

[Freedom Now]

Go out and get some books, man!

 

Thanks for my first laugh today....

[a4a]

Herein lies my dilemma. If I am not getting enough sex because of a lack of skills, how am I supposed to improve if I don't get any sex? And if a man is good in bed, how did he gain his skills...from just the woman to whom he is married? How did he learn from her...unless she taught him what she liked? So, clear this up...I am poor in bed (and I will grant you this), so she won't have sex...yet I am only supposed to have sex with her, so I cannot improve my skills. If she won't teach me, Then I am SOL.

 

I remember well a email friend who talked about her boyfriend (whom she found out visited prostitutes) being so incredible in bed. Duh, yeah, where did you think he learned his skills?

 

Just a thought.

 

 

I think this one deserves its own thread. Then I will tell ya all about how to be great in bed.

[a4a]

 

Perhaps your views on women are part of the reason that your wife feels as she does.

 

Word! If even the slightest hint of this attitude leaks out to his wife I guess she would have a good reason not to be turned on one bit and keep her legs tightly clamped together.

[Mz. Pixie]

Herein lies my dilemma. If I am not getting enough sex because of a lack of skills, how am I supposed to improve if I don't get any sex? And if a man is good in bed, how did he gain his skills...from just the woman to whom he is married? How did he learn from her...unless she taught him what she liked? So, clear this up...I am poor in bed (and I will grant you this), so she won't have sex...yet I am only supposed to have sex with her, so I cannot improve my skills. If she won't teach me, Then I am SOL.

 

I remember well a email friend who talked about her boyfriend (whom she found out visited prostitutes) being so incredible in bed. Duh, yeah, where did you think he learned his skills?

 

Just a thought.

 

Well, in my case my husband was experienced before I met him. He'd sewn his oats so to speak because he was single for longer than I was. When we first started sleeping together I did yearn for a something he wasn't giving me so I told him about a book I saw. He bought it and read it and applied it. Since then there has never been a problem.

 

I do agree that you have to teach your partner what you want sexually.

 

There are lots of books out there though to teach you how to be a good lover if you believe you lack in that skill. Doesn't have to mean that that person has visited hookers to learn how to be a good one.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm not saying the A wasn't a choice. It was, a bad one. I also agree with you that a mistake is something you do once or twice- that was certainly my experience in my A.

 

But unless you have experienced what he has experienced you can't understand what it does to you, emotionally and mentally. Was he wrong, yes he was. I've said that a million times. Yet at the same time his wife hasn't treated him well or with any kind of care either. They have both mistreated each other and just because his involved sex it makes him the worse offender?? I just don't believe that. They are both at fault here.

 

Mz.Pixie

 

I have had my share of hurtful experiences, so I don't imagine his bouts with infidelity come close to what I feel mentally and emotionally. I simply don't see his trespass against their M as her problem. He cheated. Not her. She needs to own no part of that. And that seems to be what he is being told over and over again. "Get her to see what she did to drive you to it." No one drives another to cheat. A persons own lust and desires is what drives them to cheat. Sure, she could have treated him better. But I fail to see how that relates to him cheating. He knew she was the person she is and he married her anyway. Why try to change her now?

 

I honestly don't care how badly she treated him. If it was so horrible, he should have left. Instead he did the one thing that would hurt her back for her mistreating him: cheated on her. That is humiliating. It is painful and heartbreaking. No matter how you feel about your partner. Instead of dealing with this, he drones on about the past. Is that the only ammunition that he has? I am sure she has plenty of her own. We are only hearing one side of the story. And I am not buying it (anymore, anyway).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[greeneyes78]

He knew she was the person she is and he married her anyway. Why try to change her now?

 

I dare to disagree. People change as years go by… it’s a natural growth process, we go through experiences… good or bad… professional or personal lives… and it shapes our personalities… it shapes who we are. Have you never met a woman (or a man) that would take care of herself while being single… and then let herself (or himself) go while in a relationship? Because she’s so comfortable… because he’s already seen her without makeup… because she’s “got him”… or whatever the reason might be (I still, by the way, don’t get that concept). The person you marry today is not going to be there in 10 years. You won’t be the same person in 10 years.

I find it hard to believe that he would marry her if she neglected him while they dated.

 

I honestly don't care how badly she treated him. If it was so horrible, he should have left. Instead he did the one thing that would hurt her back for her mistreating him: cheated on her. That is humiliating. It is painful and heartbreaking.

 

And leaving your wife or being left alone with kids isn’t?

[whichwayisup]

H2T, hope you're doing alright! Been a while since you've done an update...

Don't let people run out outta here, eh!

[FlyingHigh]

Herein lies my dilemma. If I am not getting enough sex because of a lack of skills, how am I supposed to improve if I don't get any sex? And if a man is good in bed, how did he gain his skills...from just the woman to whom he is married? How did he learn from her...unless she taught him what she liked? So, clear this up...I am poor in bed (and I will grant you this), so she won't have sex...yet I am only supposed to have sex with her, so I cannot improve my skills. If she won't teach me, Then I am SOL.

 

I remember well a email friend who talked about her boyfriend (whom she found out visited prostitutes) being so incredible in bed. Duh, yeah, where did you think he learned his skills?

 

Just a thought.

 

But not ALL women are like those you experienced. Some of us do tell/guide our SO the way to the "promised land" especially when they seek such guidance. And we give what they desire. But, behold, some men are stuck in their sexual routine that the promised land ends up being just a mirage for us! LOL! With my XHTB, he wanted input, but after awhile I knew exactly what was coming next.

 

Let's face it, a man's heirloom is not built to be a vibrator or to simulate one. So, why would a man expect his wife to be something she cannot or willing to be. If a man wants to just bed a prostitue, he shouldn't marry a "normal" woman. But hey, if he wants to marry a prostitue, do you honestly think you'll get the same acts of service after the I do's? It's not the same as buying a cow in order to get free milk!

[NoIDidn't]

I find it hard to believe that he would marry her if she neglected him while they dated.

 

I don't. Sometimes when we are dating someone and some of their more negative character traits come to light we are willing to ignore them because we want the relationship more than cutting it off. We ASSUME the person will change with M. Most of the time, they don't. And we are wrong to assume that all people change and grow with time. Most of the time, the traits that bothered you when you were dating, become unbearable after a few years of M.

 

 

 

And leaving your wife or being left alone with kids isn’t?

 

I am not quite sure of what you are asking with this question.

[Mz. Pixie]

Mz.Pixie

 

I have had my share of hurtful experiences, so I don't imagine his bouts with infidelity come close to what I feel mentally and emotionally. I simply don't see his trespass against their M as her problem. He cheated. Not her. She needs to own no part of that. And that seems to be what he is being told over and over again. "Get her to see what she did to drive you to it." No one drives another to cheat. A persons own lust and desires is what drives them to cheat. Sure, she could have treated him better. But I fail to see how that relates to him cheating. He knew she was the person she is and he married her anyway. Why try to change her now?

 

I honestly don't care how badly she treated him. If it was so horrible, he should have left. Instead he did the one thing that would hurt her back for her mistreating him: cheated on her. That is humiliating. It is painful and heartbreaking. No matter how you feel about your partner. Instead of dealing with this, he drones on about the past. Is that the only ammunition that he has? I am sure she has plenty of her own. We are only hearing one side of the story. And I am not buying it (anymore, anyway).

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

First of all, how can you tell that his experiences don't come close to what you've experienced?? Or that you have been hurt more than he has??

 

Most of the time when there is infidelity in a marriage there are two people to blame. I'm basing my comments on personal experience, reading marriage books, marriage counseling, and what I've read on marriage builders. She didn't force him to cheat, and he took that action himself but there were conditions in the marriage which caused this to happen. The marriage is in trouble before the cheating ever takes place. The cheating is a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

 

Have you ever been married?? It's not always as simple as "just leave!"

 

I for one have never hammered and said "Get her to see what she'd done to drive you to this" If you'll read his old thread you'll see that I hammered HIM quite hard stating that he was full of justification for his actions. Yet eventually for their marriage to be a success she's going to have to get into the game and see what she has done to damage the relationship.

 

Why is it that you believe that his infidelity is worse than her constant mistreatment and manipulation of him??? Because sex was involved?? Both were WRONG!!! And both of them will need to make ammends if the situation is to improve at all.

 

He's doing the work. Yeah, he should have done it before he had the affair, but that wasn't the way it was done. He's going to counseling alone and he's trying. You've got to give him credit for that.

 

His trespass against their marriage is not her fault- but the conditions to which made their marriage ripe for an affair ARE.

 

You stated above that the way she treated him is the PAST and that was the only ammunition that he has. Well, the affair is in the PAST also and if we use that logic then well she should be just able to move past that as well huh???

 

He didn't purposely set out to hurt her. He didn't have the affairs out of revenge. He did it because he was lonely and hurting and vulnerable and the person that he loved didn't want anything to do with him.

 

They have both made mistakes, but it's time for her to step up to the plate and start to do some work on the marriage. They both need to do this for the sake of their children.

[NoIDidn't]

First, let me say that you are taking my posts waaaaaaaay too personally. Second, yes I AM MARRIED. Third, re-read the FIRST statement.

 

You have obviously been triggered by some things that have been posted and should look to why rather than to go on the attack. I have no idea of the things that he has experienced beyond what he has shared here. But I haven't given you the same insight into my experiences, yet I can still tell you that there is no comparison and leave it at that.

 

He had NO EXCUSE for cheating (neither did you). Loneliness is another EXCUSE. I have been lonely in my M, I have not cheated.

[NoIDidn't]

You stated above that the way she treated him is the PAST and that was the only ammunition that he has. Well, the affair is in the PAST also and if we use that logic then well she should be just able to move past that as well huh???

 

This is my logic.

 

His affairs were because of her treatment of him. All he repeatedly states is about the same things pointing to her mistreatment of him. I am not saying that she is a great W or whatever. I am simply stating that he has had TWO affairs and this is his reasoning behind them. Forgive me for cutting through the bull$h!t. :sarcasm:

 

And his affairs may well be in the past, but the logic that got him into them is not. So, she, like anyone else coming to the conclusion that I am reaching, is that he will likely do it again. Why make changes for a person that you think will just do it again? Why commit to a person that won't commit to you (as she may be assuming)? For the children? I think not. Children are better off in broken homes than in dysfunctional ones. (A general statement before you twist my words - yet again).

 

I have never said that you were the one making the statements concerning her. Many have. What I take issue with is everyone making those statements is only giving him more ammunition to his simmering resentment of her. You can't say it isn't there in all of his posts. That is where the problem lies. With him and his resentment. His M will be no better if he continues to hold on to this. Resentment is the underlying theme in his posts. He may have good reason to have it, but it is killing what is left of his M.

[Mz. Pixie]

First, let me say that you are taking my posts waaaaaaaay too personally. Second, yes I AM MARRIED. Third, re-read the FIRST statement.

 

You have obviously been triggered by some things that have been posted and should look to why rather than to go on the attack. I have no idea of the things that he has experienced beyond what he has shared here. But I haven't given you the same insight into my experiences, yet I can still tell you that there is no comparison and leave it at that.

 

He had NO EXCUSE for cheating (neither did you). Loneliness is another EXCUSE. I have been lonely in my M, I have not cheated.

 

First of all, the post that I was answering you personally addressed to me- which is why I answered in the first place.

 

I am not triggered by your post in the least bit, I'm here to point out the other side of the coin. I've been in his shoes so I get where he's coming from.

 

And, if you think I'm attacking you then you obviously haven't been here enough.

 

I also never belittled your experiences or pain so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

 

Bully for you that you were lonely in your marriage but you didn't cheat. That's certainly admirable but unfortunately H2 didn't choose to go that way.

 

I have many times said that no matter what my ex did to me in the past it wasn't an excuse for what I did, because I ultimately stepped over the line. I believe that I have also told H2 the same thing.

 

Yet- I stand by my opinion- which is backed up by marriage experts- that most of the time cheating doesn't occur unless there are problems in the marriage already.

[Mz. Pixie]

Why make changes for a person that you think will just do it again? Why commit to a person that won't commit to you (as she may be assuming

 

I believe that I did say that both of them have plenty of work to do in the marriage. I believe that he is trying to make up for what he's done.

 

He could very well be saying the same things- why should he make changes when her behavior hasn't changed???

 

Same thing.

 

Both of them have got to do the work- and he's the only one who is going to counseling. Both of them obviously need it.

 

Have you been to marriagebuilders??

 

Perhaps you would find it interesting.

[NoIDidn't]

He could very well be saying the same things- why should he make changes when her behavior hasn't changed???

 

Same thing.

 

Both of them have got to do the work- and he's the only one who is going to counseling. Both of them obviously need it.

 

Have you been to marriagebuilders??

 

Perhaps you would find it interesting.

 

See, we agree far more than we disagree. They have work to do. But if she doesn't want to do it, no amount of coersion is going to make a bit of difference.

 

I have seen MB even before I was married. I applied a lot of the concepts that I learned to my R with my H - and they didn't work. I simply don't support the "Policy of Joint Agreement" because you can't always agree. Especially not enthusiastically. I like DivorceBusters much better. Less religious rhetoric.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wish H2T much success in his LIFE. I just don't think his M is going to make it.

[NoIDidn't]

I also never belittled your experiences or pain so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

 

Never said that you did.

 

Bully for you that you were lonely in your marriage but you didn't cheat. That's certainly admirable but unfortunately H2 didn't choose to go that way.

 

Thanks for making the point about his CHOICE.

 

 

I have many times said that no matter what my ex did to me in the past it wasn't an excuse for what I did, because I ultimately stepped over the line. I believe that I have also told H2 the same thing.

Yes, indeed you did. Never said that you didn't.

 

Yet- I stand by my opinion- which is backed up by marriage experts- that most of the time cheating doesn't occur unless there are problems in the marriage already.

 

An opinion that is backed by so called marriage experts, is still an opinion. And I think its been established that they had problems. Problem is, H2T is making all the poblems HER fault. His A is NOT HER fault. The climate in his M may have lead to the A, but she does not have to claim that. We have yet to hear about his contributions to said climate, implying that he has been perfect and that she is just a mean, evil person. And I am STILL not buying it.

 

I am going to bow out gracefully at this point as you are asserting your "seniority" over me since you have been here longer. I am not interested in a pissing match, which is what this is becoming. Yes, I directed a post to you stating that my OPINION was different from yours. I am entitled. I have never said that you aren't entitled to yours. I stated I didn't agree with you and many of the others that insist on telling him "She has to claim her part" concerning their M and HIS A. And I still don't. Regardless of what some "marriage expert" says. Posters telling him that are just fueling his resentment and anger towards her. If the goal is to help him, then things should focus on him, not HER. Things that he can do, not things he can make her do. THAT is my honest opinion. Not an attack on him or you or anyone else that I disagree with.

[JamesM]

Is a fight between women a "pissing match?" Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

When we first started sleeping together I did yearn for a something he wasn't giving me so I told him about a book I saw. He bought it and read it and applied it. Since then there has never been a problem

 

Ms Pixie, slightly off topic...what books would you recommend? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to list any here.

 

If the goal is to help him, then things should focus on him, not HER. Things that he can do, not things he can make her do

 

I agree with this statement. But on the other side of the coin, if there are problems from her that helped cause the affair, they are still there. He needs to deal with these issues, but you are right, he cannot change her, but he still must live with her and know HOW to deal with her.

[Mz. Pixie]

The reason I've addressed his issues is simply because he is here. He's doing the work, he's the one who came here for help. Not her. I can't help her if she isn't coming here nor can a counselor help them if she isn't attending.

 

H2T has talked about his contributions to the marriage. IMO it sounds almost as if he's put his wife on a pedestal for years and she's taken full advantage of it. Is he bitter?? Yes he is, but it sounds like she is too.

 

James- I'll PM you.

[Hard2Think]

Last Saturday, I was up very late from a bout of insomnia that hits me from time to time. I had a couple of glasses of wine and grabbed a couple of dusty photo albums that had been on the shelf, untouched, for quite a while. It was funny to pick them up again (I forgot how gaudy the decoration was in the 80's for this kind of thing).

 

The first one had pictures of my wife and I about 20 years ago. We were just a couple of very young lovers. We looked just like kids. She was all giggly and I was only 22. We had pictures of us everywhere. In Paris, where we met, in the US, where she had a house. At the beach, at the zoo, at the park, - in every picture we were holding on to each other tight and close, laughing and with big smiles on our faces - enjoying so much being the lovers that were were. We didn't have any money, but we also had no care in the world. Life was so much fun - you could see it our faces.

 

Then we had the wedding pictures. We had no family attend - they were too far away or they didn't care. We did it ourselves. We were so young and so happy. We did it all ourselves - we were the only ones that mattered anyway. We were so damn happy. I laughed as I remembered how were went to a "fancy" wedding dinner and we were freaking out because it cost more than a 100 dollars.

 

She was a flight attendant and so there were pictures of us in Hawaii, Spain, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Hong Kong, and anywhere I could hop on a plane to be with her. In all the pictures we were inseperable. Our arms were always wrapped together - a tornado couldn't have pulled us apart. And we were always laughing.

 

Then I saw the pictures of her pregnant and then the kids just born and us holding them. First our daughter and them a few years later, our son. Life was so good then. We were beaming with joy. I remembered how we raised them both with no one's help. It was so hard - but they turned out so well!

 

Then as time went on, there were plenty of pictures of the kids and their friends. Plenty of pictures of my wife and the kids. Me and the kids. But I could hardly find any where we were together. The few that I saw found us holding each other in a frozen pose, mechanically in place for the camera. Sure we had arms around each others' waists - but we weren't holding each other close anymore, and the smiles were from saying "cheese" or something. Then near the end of the album - I could find almost no more pictures of us together. Years and years of pictures and were were sitting five feet from each other - each looking individually at the camera. The real smiles were gone.

 

I got depressed and I lay back on the couch. I started to drift off - and in that foggy half-sleep twilight I saw my wife again - just like she was. She was on one of those moving sidewalks like you see at the airport. She saw me and smiled and giggled like she used to. I waved to her. I said goodbye and told her I loved her and that I always will. She clapped her hands together once and smiled and giggled and then replied, "I love you too!".

 

I knew I'd never see her again. She's gone forever. I've been sitting around waiting for her to come back - but I know now that she never will.

 

Thank you all for all your posts. You've helped me more than you know - even those of you who were negative towards me. Even you took the time and cared to try to help. I'm deeply grateful that some of you spent so much effort to be helpful - writing long emails, giving me great suggestions, and even giving me letters to write to my wife. And you don't even know me.

 

You're all awesome. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

I won't be posting anymore. I have alot of thinking to do and some decisions to make. None of it is easy and I couldn't ask for more useful feedback than I've already gotten. Thanks again!

[JamesM]

H2T, I really do feel for you. I have followed your story from the beginning. For me it was a good wakeup call that an affair does not solve problems, but it will create huge new ones.

 

Please update us once on awhile. I am gathering...but not certain...that your wife left you now for good. I do hope you make it through this.

[Hard2Think]

H2T, I really do feel for you. I have followed your story from the beginning. For me it was a good wakeup call that an affair does not solve problems, but it will create huge new ones.

 

Please update us once on awhile. I am gathering...but not certain...that your wife left you now for good. I do hope you make it through this.

No - we're still together. It's just not great. Hasn't been for years.

[Chapter2]

If I may ask, what has led you to the decision to stop posting?

[whichwayisup]

Maybe you and your wife should sit down, go through that photo album together and talk. Just sit and recall memories, let her know how sad you are, how sh!!tty the situation is that things went this far...And, that you're willing to give it a shot if she is willing.

 

Maybe, just maybe, if she sits and sees those photos, sees how happy life was back then, it will get a reaction out of her.

 

I wish you luck H2T, and take care of yourself. Post back once in a while if you need to.

[whichwayisup]

If I may ask, what has led you to the decision to stop posting?

 

I'm taking a guess here, but the supportive posts got less and less and (to me) it seemed there were folks just bashing for the sake of bashing him, not really productive, seeing as the guy was working his butt off to gain back trust with his wife...Or maybe he just needs to move on...Either way, I hope he knows he can come back and post, or PM people for advice too.

 

PS sidenote - Haven't seen our lovely LadyJane in a quite a while...

I hope she's doing okay.