Infidelity a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[luvstarved]

Another wife here being accused of paranoia...my H and I are supposedly trying to repair sexless marriage at my insistence. Now having sex 3-4 times a wk but very boring and seemingly a chore for him. He refuses to even admit that we have sex issues, and says he was content to masturbate...gets angry when I try to talk about it.

 

A new woman has started at his work and there have been a number of red flags that suggest to me that she is a potential threat to our relationship. I have been very open with my H about this concern but he has assured me the danger does not exist. Meanwhile, every few days, more subtle clues surface.

 

My honest feeling here is that he has no willful intention to have an affair with her but things are progressing in that direction. I would like to make sure his eyes are open and that he doesn't fall into that trap that I know he doesn't really want to be in.

 

The last time I got such a clue and restated my concern, he said that I was scary and paranoid and it would lead to "self-fulfilling prophecy". For perspective, the clue was this (and only one in a growing series of similar ones): he lobbied very hard to get his current job where he has been for two months. It was his dream. All of a sudden, the other day he said he wanted to transfer to another dept, where he did not want to be before (he was given the choice) and it just so happens to be her dept.

 

By itself, this would not mean anything but it has been one thing after another, between her telling him her personal problems and past relationships, neighbors who are coming on to her, etc, being touchy feely with him, him blowing off a rare lunch date with me (after I showed up for it) because she had made some minor mistake and he had to "help her out", him making statements, again all of a sudden, about how I just don't "understand" the nature of his work and issues (although for 10 years he always said I was very helpful and insightful), him telling me contradictory stories about things she has said to him, him saying at first that he thought she was attractive then denying ever having said so, etc. It is just an unending series of little snippets that sound like the start of every damn affair.

 

She is recently divorced, a few years younger than us, blonde, and lives alone within 3 miles of the work place. Their work takes them on the road (local) and sometimes together IF THEY ARE IN THE SAME DEPT. Further, they have a very similar background professionally and I am in an entirely different profession.

 

I want so much to just be scarily paranoid. I told him I am not accusing him but that I would be a fool not to pay attention to this and not want to know about his interactions with her. BUT - is there such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy? He was jealous of one of my coworkers some time ago and questioned me similarly - but that did not make the guy more attractive to me...for him to use that term made me think that he is setting me up to be "responsible" for an affair should it happen...

 

Coupled with his evasion about our sex life, I see a lot to worry about here. I quit asking questions but these things keep popping up every few days and then I react. When he came home after landing his "dream job" and said he wanted to transfer to her dept (actually he had an elaborate set of other reasons that didn't ring true, he didn't say "her dept"),knowing how I felt, that really upset me...Should I just swallow my fear and hope nothing happens, or should I continue to ask questions when he says things that raise red flags for me? Or...does it even matter???

[FlyingHigh]

Trust your gut instincts. They're there for a reason. I saw red flags and looked the other way because I wanted to trust XHTB. No matter how many questions you ask and if he denies them, that's a sign he's got something to hide. Action speaks louder than words. If your H walks and talks like a cheater, he's either there or is about to cheat.

 

I came across a list of hints or clues if your spouse is cheating a while back. Maybe someone can give you the link.

 

Good luck. I hope you and your husband can work things out before it's too late.

[catgirl1927]

We all have instincts for a reason. I'm really sorry this is happening to you.

 

As far as a "self-fulfilling prophecy," it sounds like what he really wants is an excuse to have this affair. He's already telling you that when you find out about his affair, he will place all the blame for it happening on you.

[InaPanic]

I don't honestly know. Do you think you are badgering him to the point he's getting frustrated & that's why he made that comment? Maybe he's just getting tired of the accusations. Perhaps if you two could sit down & calmly without interuptions discuss your concerns with him & point out all the things that have happened that have given you reason to be paranoid. Then see if he can calmly put your mind at ease. IF he acts too defensive, i don't know, that isn't a good sign i imagine. Good luck with it & i hope your fears are not realized.

[luvstarved]

Well in a way I feel like Scrooge in A Christmas Carol: these are things that will happen if something doesn't happen to prevent them. I am so confused at this point that I don't know.

 

What I am in the middle of now is writing him a long letter just explaining my feelings and why they are not "paranoid" and how I really need an honest conversation. He had been lying to me about other things, little white lies but enough to compromise my sense of trust, so I at least want him to be able to see why I would be in a position to be suspicious. I don't want to be, and I honestly don't know whether I am right or dead wrong. Hopefully the letter will help...at this point I don't really see it doing harm.

 

I don't believe I am badgering. We had sexless marriage for 7 years and I only put my foot down recently after finding out he had been deceptive with me. Even since, despite other worries and concerns, I have only brought up these issues a few times, and only when I felt sort of provoked...

[Jane Doe]

I see major red flags here. Do you have access to his cell phone? Can you see who he calls and who calls him? I think you need to do a little detective work or either hire someone. I don't mean to alarm you, but you did ask for opinions. I think you need to protect yourself -- financially, physically (from STDs), and emotionally.

[luvstarved]

Well for the last few days nothing else has surfaced. He does not HAVE a cell phone at the moment so there is nothing to check there, though it would be interesting to see if he asked for one!! His work has him on the road sometimes and working with clients sometimes so it is hard to trace him entirely. He has a work cell phone and I call him on it and sometimes get "I can't talk now" but that has been going on forever and never meant anything.

The last couple of days I emailed him frequently during the day to try to gauge his day. There isn't anything at this point to call a PI over but I would if I had to. I have keylogger on computer so can trace his email, etc.

 

Meanwhile he has backed off on the transfer idea, said he'll wait and see if he continues to like his new position for now, and we have arranged to go to a weekend marriage seminar in a few weeks (can we get there fast enough?) and he has acted enthusiastic about it. He has been very loving and things ARE improving, slowly. He has never been a "womanizer" and I don't think he is one now. I just worry that he will fall into something, go into work angry with me one day and tell her some of our personal stuff, and then it rolls on from there. I don't believe he has actual plans, but that he is vulnerable and is only half-aware of it. I do think that the red flags are correctly interpreted by me, but I don't think he is fully clear on them himself! That is to say, I think there is danger and that he is vulnerable and that he knows he is somewhat attracted to her, but that he is still telling himself "I'm not going to do anything"...

 

Does that sound possible?

 

Meanwhile, I have written him a 28 page handwritten letter going over my side of our relationship...with 2 pages of it devoted to this topic. In it I said that I am going to trust him and try not to ask more questions but did try to make him see why any woman would have seen the same red flags. However, I also said that I would probably continue to need clarification about the situation if anything new arose and would ask questions if I felt I had any need to. I haven't given him the letter, stayed up very late writing it and need to reread it and find the right time first, but my thinking is, I am going for it and exposing my feelings, warts and all. The letter is for the most part upbeat and loving and is not jusgmental...

[LakesideDream]

I was cheated on for years by a WS and ignored the signs, so I am no expert however:

 

You have gone to the extreme of installing a keylogger on his computer? Obviously there are problems that run very deep in this relationship.

 

What happens if he finds out you are "checking" on him? If he's "not guilty" because he is a good man at heart, dealing with the problems the best he can, you may have created a bigger problem than there was.

 

Tread carefully.

[luvstarved]

I originally put in a keylogger to keep track of my teens when they had friends I worried about. Seeing my husband's porn use was just a side effect. He knows that somehow I am able to see what he does on the computer, he doesn't know "keylogger" (he is only moderately computer literate and I am a computer engineer so he readily accepts that I know things and "have my ways")...

 

He does get sometimes what I call overly indignant about my lack of trust, I have pointed out to him that he HAS lied to me (he at one point said he wanted to be "celibate" just to avoid our sexual difficulties then claimed that the porn sites more or less "attacked" him, ie popped up via emails and that he never sought it out) and as I said I have not ACCUSED him but have said that I would be a fool to not pay attention to things like this..

 

I know I can't OBSESS about it,but do feel like I would be a fool to tell myself that there is nothing to worry about and not stay alert...

[lindya]

As far as a "self-fulfilling prophecy," it sounds like what he really wants is an excuse to have this affair. He's already telling you that when you find out about his affair, he will place all the blame for it happening on you.

 

I agree with this. A self fulfilling prophecy maybe occurs where too much negative thinking helps to bring about a negative outcome. It sounds, though, like your husband is just using the concept of self fulfilling prophecies to prevent you from raising very valid concerns that he feels uncomfortable about discussing. And, perhaps, getting ready to shrug off responsibility for his actions.

 

Should I just swallow my fear and hope nothing happens, or should I continue to ask questions when he says things that raise red flags for me? Or...does it even matter???

 

Yes it matters. Unfortunately, if he already has the kind of friendship with this woman where they share information about personal problems and relationships, then she'll be an "ally" who colludes with (and probably encourages) him in attributing their deepening involvement to your fears and suspicions. That's something that, unfortunately, you can't control.

 

How dependent are you (socially, financially and emotionally) on your husband? Or perhaps more importantly, how dependent does he perceive you as being - bearing in mind that ego needs sometimes cause people to have exaggerated perceptions of their partner's dependency on them?

 

Right now, he seems to be involved in a friendship whereby this woman leans on him a lot. Dependent behaviour from her is less threatening, because he's not legally and financially embroiled with her....so it's easier for him to play out some fantasy of being the strong, empathic White Knight. Because of this, I think it's probably important that you can let him know you're not going to fall apart if he turns your concerns into reality, neither are you going to take responsibility - and most of all, you will not go along with some elaborate denial that there's any problem.

 

Finally, I have to say that when you find yourself involved with someone you have shaky faith in, it makes sense to start preparing yourself to manage life without them. That doesn't mean giving up on your marriage, but you need to balance the desire to make things work with the understanding that sometimes there's nothing you can do to stop a partner from sabotaging the relationship they have with you.

[luvstarved]

Honestly, I have no practical dependency on him. I make a much larger salary than he does and take care of all of the bills, household responsibilities, etc. I have been independent for a lot of my adult life and have no qualms about taking care of myself. He knows that I am not afraid of surviving without him, while at the same time he knows that I very much want this marriage to work because I truly do love him and think that it has way more potential than any other I have ever been in.

 

I have also told him many times that he should never ever think of me as someone who "prevents" him from having something he wants. I have told him that I simply would not want to be with someone who wants someone else...but I have made it clear many times that infidelity is something that I will never tolerate. Which is to say, if you want someone else that bad, go ahead and have them, but understand that you can't also have me. Simple as that.

 

So while I want to stay on top of things and seriously do not want anything like this to happen, there is also a pretty clear element that if it does, I will not hold MYSELF accountable, and that I will not "forgive and forget" or take any "gee whiz I didn't mean to make such a terrible mistake" excuses.

 

Maybe that makes me sound like a hard ass. I really am not, I have also told him that I do understand that people are people and find other people attractive, etc and don't blame him for being a human being for cripe's sake. But I do consider affairs the ultimate in self-indulgence and disrespect for the spouse, and indicative of a relationship that isn't worth keeping, especially when all of this has been made clear all along and isn't a situation where it all happened without any prior discussion or communication...

[lindya]

Maybe that makes me sound like a hard ass. I really am not, I have also told him that I do understand that people are people and find other people attractive, etc and don't blame him for being a human being for cripe's sake. But I do consider affairs the ultimate in self-indulgence and disrespect for the spouse, and indicative of a relationship that isn't worth keeping, especially when all of this has been made clear all along and isn't a situation where it all happened without any prior discussion or communication...

 

 

It certainly doesn't seem hard - just healthy and realistic. If you've given your husband the same message that you've given us here, then it's hard to see what more you can reasonably do. If he decides he wants to get sucked into the whole "damsel in distress" scenario with this woman at work, he has to take the responsibility and the consequences. It sounds as if you've done your bit to try to prevent it from happening.

[luvstarved]

Well that is how I see myself - as rational and realistic but he tries to paint me as paranoid and scary.

 

Nothing new today, except that he said he is going to stop going to my dentist (whom he has been going to for the 10 years we have been together) and start at a place closer to home that he thinks is cheaper.

 

I'm taking notes, that's all...

[GuestI'mHere]

I agree with all your positions. You are incredibly strong and independent woman. I wonder if he finds this intimidating and the dependent woman at work as an ego booster??

 

Either way, there's nothing to worry about here. I know you'll survive no matter what happens and I have alot of respect for you about that.

[Guest]

here is my take on things. let's say a man and woman were in a long term relationship and the woman leaves, without saying why, and then after a couple of months she breaks up with him - they are no longer a couple. lets say they both have 'issues' from their past, and from things that happened during their relationship, but because of NC, nothing get resloved, and then after a period of cat and mouse / gaming playing where other people outside the relationship [which they have no business in] where what is the truth becomes so muddied and confused, that there is no way of knowing what is fact and what is fiction, that this is no way of knowing what her intent is or what his is,

 

so after a period of time, the man decides, ok, she is the one that ended things, he has tried to understand and move forward in a real way, she has made zero contact with him nor communicate with him in person for many months, and she knows that is the only why anything get solved, so, the man says - enuff. he tells her that he has taken back his love and heart and has moved on. tells her that if she would like to do anything about this it is her move and that she has to be the one that makes the move and do so face to face. and that he is not going to spend any more time thinking or worrying about her, or the future. he tells her whatever happened in the past, is just that the past. he tells her that whatever she does is her responsiblity, that he was willing to discuss everything, all cards on table, honest, trust. tells her that he is confident in himself and if he never sees her again,

 

it will not be something that he can't deal with because he has already taken the steps to do so. he tells her whatever insecurities she has are her issues to deal with and that if she has done anything like install a keylogger on his computer, well, that is her problem. because he knows who he is, what he does, and it is his life. if she needs to do such a thing, he doesn't care and he will not disable it because it was her choice to put it on so it is her job to tell him and take it off. he tells her he has no issues with trust, respect, etc. and until she decides to turn her life around,

 

she has to understand that he isn't a fallback guy, a doormate, a loser, whatever - he tells her - this is her deal. he was clear and communicated it clearly. so, they both understand where things stand. he tells her he is not waiting for her and that he is going about his life and that includes meeting other women, because he is single. so, if she decides to do nothing, and then suddenly find out that he is in another relationship - well, that's life. it is still up to her and her alone to make the move - in real life. that's my 2 cents.

 

 

"You have gone to the extreme of installing a keylogger on his computer? Obviously there are problems that run very deep in this relationship. What happens if he finds out you are "checking" on him? If he's "not guilty" because he is a good man at heart, dealing with the problems the best he can, you may have created a bigger problem than there was."

[Guest]

hey lovehungry...get out of my head! i jsut said the same thing. we are on the same page! you are bang on! kewl. we must have posted our thoughts close to the same time. weird! lol. used to do that with someone else!

stay kewwl

 

 

"Honestly, I have no practical dependency on him. I make a much larger salary than he does and take care of all of the bills, household responsibilities, etc. I have been independent for a lot of my adult life and have no qualms about taking care of myself. He knows that I am not afraid of surviving without him, while at the same time he knows that I very much want this marriage to work because I truly do love him and think that it has way more potential than any other I have ever been in. I have also told him many times that he should never ever think of me as someone who "prevents" him from having something he wants. I have told him that I simply would not want to be with someone who wants someone else...but I have made it clear many times that infidelity is something that I will never tolerate. Which is to say, if you want someone else that bad, go ahead and have them, but understand that you can't also have me. Simple as that.

 

So while I want to stay on top of things and seriously do not want anything like this to happen, there is also a pretty clear element that if it does, I will not hold MYSELF accountable, and that I will not "forgive and forget" or take any "gee whiz I didn't mean to make such a terrible mistake" excuses.

Maybe that makes me sound like a hard ass. I really am not, I have also told him that I do understand that people are people and find other people attractive, etc and don't blame him for being a human being for cripe's sake.

 

But I do consider affairs the ultimate in self-indulgence and disrespect for the spouse, and indicative of a relationship that isn't worth keeping, especially when all of this has been made clear all along and isn't a situation where it all happened without any prior discussion or communication..."

[umbo]

Dear Luvstarved I have read a number of your posts to different threads and find my self a fan of your advice and thoughtful guidance. I am disheartened

with the events that has created hesitations, questions and selfconsciousness as I wished we all had perfect marriages. I find myself anxiously optomisic that any mishap that you may find your self in would expose itself as an opportunity for reflection and freedom from passionless commitments.

 

I know you are not paranoid and I have every confidence that you know the stinch of a looming, threatening solicited either emotional or physical affair. I am so grieved these cirmcumstances. But as you did communicate to your husband the red flags the apprehension and concerns. All we can do is hope he does not wonder down the path of no return. Your husband should be so raptured by you wanting to restore the intimacy of your marriage that every thing and everyone else are infinitesimal to him.

[stoopid_guy]

If I remember correctly from your other posts, your husband is content in your marriage, just not affectionate/intimate? If that's the case, why would he cheat? And as much as I respect you, worrying about things as trivial as him changing dentists would get a bit bothersome after a while. Telling you that suspecting infidelity is a self-fulfilling prophecy may just be a strong way of him asking you to trust him more.

 

You must accept that roughly half the people he's going to meet will be women, and unless he's a misogynist, he's going to be friends with some of them too. That doesn't mean he's going to be romantically interested though, and even though he might find them sexy, it doesn't mean he'll cheat.