Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 Maybe it's because love has been so abused and crucified by man that very few people know what true love is. This is why so many relationships fail. But to define love is very difficult, for the same reason that words cannot fully describe the flavor of an orange. You have to immerse yourself into this love to truly understand. It's cognitively impossible There my friend is part of your answer. Unconditional love is not just a cognitive process. It's something way deeper in your soul. Unconditional love is not a love based on what you have experienced in the past or what one had to endure to get to this point. It would almost be the same as trying to prove if one has a soul or not. Sciencetifically it cannot be done. Does that mean it does not exist?
Owl Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. NO human being could be expected to continue to "unconditionally love" someone who is torturing them...killing their children...boiling the family pet for dinner...etc... Again...you can't seperate the actions from the feelings for that person. The actions absolutely DO impact your feelings for someone. It's unavoidable. I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly maintain feelings of love for someone who has tried to murder them, or whatever along those lines. I can't see myself loving someone through that at least.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 It's cognitively impossible There my friend is part of your answer. Unconditional love is not just a cognitive process. It's something way deeper in your soul. Unconditional love is not a love based on what you have experienced in the past or what one had to endure to get to this point. It would almost be the same as trying to prove if one has a soul or not. Sciencetifically it cannot be done. Does that mean it does not exist? So those who cannot experience unconditional love are now soul-deficient. Wow that's a sucky theory.
Owl Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 2long- Unconditional love is a concept too. I don't understand the distinction?
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 So those who cannot experience unconditional love are now soul-deficient. Wow that's a sucky theory. No, not in the least. What I am saying is just because you can't prove unconditional love exist doesn't mean it's either not out there or not achieveable.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 No, not in the least. What I am saying is just because you can't prove unconditional love exist doesn't mean it's either not out there or not achieveable. Well that pretty much puts a lid on any further intellectually stimulating debate. Thanks a pantsfull. I hate it when people resort to that. Well yeah, maybe it does exist. but I have yet to see an example of it, in history, in reality.
tanbark813 Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 2long - Your concept of "unconditional love" is really just tolerance.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 blind: How old are you? How long have you been married (if you're married, or in a committed relationship)? No offense taken. I'm trapped in this room until my mopping dries anyways. I'm 26. 27 on October 3. I would PM you this but you don't have the option... I was married before. I'm not anymore. He's in federal prison now. I've had longterm relationships since then where I was physically abused and witnessed a violent crime. I have been lucky enough, or unlucky enough - take your pick - to experience a wide variety of things in my short life. Some of them were pretty bad. Some of them were great. It's all relative. But I have examined the concept of love -- not just romantic love, because that really limits your spectrum, IMO. I've been forced to delve into the concept of love, from a very early age. I was challenged on this concept with my family, and within myself. Because of my past, I wrestle with self-loathing on a regular basis. Mostly due to being raped when I was 12 and again when I was 19, and a childhood that involved me experiencing and being exposed to violence from the very woman who squeezed me out of her womb. Unconditional love, my brown butt. I was confronted with the challenge of loving my mother. I still do. I accept her even though she's crazy as hell and still deals with me on a basis of power struggles. Perhaps because my earliest relationship was like that, the one with my mother, I cannot comprehend what unconditional love is, how one would go about feeling it, or how one would go about giving it.
quankanne Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 ah, but otter, you've got your dad as your example of unconditional love ... someone who, even if he hasn't agreed with some of your decisions, has loved you so completely because you're his. I agree that it's harder to find in a marital/couples relationship, yet sometimes a couple who grows closer together identifies with that kind of unconditional love. What 2long quoted, about it being an "enlarging of self" by consciously working toward it, identifies marital unconditional love a lot better than I've been able to put into words. I guess it can be likened to faith: you can't prove or show it, but because you've experienced it for yourself, you can vouch for it even as words fail you.
Owl Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 2LONG- OK, the "love bank" is a metaphor for describing what you call conditional love. The love you feel for someone is based on how they treat you, how they meet your emotional needs, etc... But given that, then comparing the 'conditional love' explained by that with the "unconditional love" being talked about here, the vast majority of evidence indicates that 'conditional love' is what truly motivates nearly everyone...at least as it applies to a relationship. And personally, we've taken the "love bank" concept and applied it to how our kids relate to each other...if they "love bust" each other, it makes it clear to see how/why they react the way they do. Personally, I think that they're both "concepts" on how people (should) interact. And reality is that people react/intereact based on conditions. In truth...there ARE limits on what/how people can love. Do you really feel you'd still be in love with your wife while she set fire to the clothes you're wearing? Suddenly took to sleeping with every man she met? Attacked you every time she saw you? Think about it before you respond. I know you say you'd hate the actions...but eventually, the actions always define how you feel towards that person.
tanbark813 Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I think this argument is really just about semantics. What is unconditional love to one person can be seen as weakness and a lack of self-respect to another.
Owl Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Hmmm...given what I read in your response, I'd say that you married your wife because you didn't believe that she was CAPABLE of actions like that...or at least would do them. Could you love someone who WAS capable of doing that? Another perspective...would you love a dog that did nothing but try to bite you anytime you were near it? Probably not. But the cute little puppy that welcomes you home? Probably. How is it different with people?
Rooster_DAR Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 When one does not believe in God (or in this case love) then that is a character fault. When that person dies they will still be cursing God or in this case not have any belief in love. When one does not believe in love then there is no way to cure this person. This is a person that will live in a life of destitude and despair and like I said not embrace what one of life's greatest gifts. This is the biggest load of cr**p I've ever seen. You are saying someone who doesn't believe in God should be cursed, and in this belief, to hell? Any god who cannot prove his existence, and instead relies on faith (which is basically believing what someone tells you), and that would curse someone for not seeing the proof of existence is not someone I would care to worship. Sounds more like a threat from a dictator that supposedly existed from someone’s demented imagination. There are many people in the world who do not believe in god, yet they are some of the most considerate, loving, caring, giving, (and the list is too long), people in the world. Now you take the things that are going on with religious entities, and we now see them molesting children, embezzling money from the synagogue, and taking peoples money for their own benefit, and out of other people’s ignorance. God's were created by man for the purpose of believing there is something higher than just us and that we don't feel so alone. Why do you think there are so many gods, and everyone thinks theirs is the right one? I believe religion is both a blessing and a curse. Probably more of a blessing, for if it never existed we probably would not evolved into any kind of advance social structure, everyone would mame and kill each other. Religion (and gods), are the basis of most war in the world and that's been a problem since man has existed. I believe in love very much, and I am capable of showing people my love with great conviction. I also don't believe that I am of bad character simply because I don't believe in a story (A Great Story(s) Though) that suggests a magical being that is almighty, but cannot reveal him/herself to prove that they exists. (We live in a predictable universe when it comes to physics, and the magic we read in books is just fiction). PS I’m not expressing my opinion that there is not a god, I’m just merely stating my opinion that God in its traditional sense is very flawed. I do believe there could be a creator, but it’s probably nothing like we could ever imagine. End of transmission!
Owl Posted September 20, 2006 Posted September 20, 2006 LOL...that's my point, 2long. I don't truly believe that PEOPLE are capable of "unconditional love"...ESPECIALLY in romantic (marital) relationships. I think that the "in love" feelings can often make us more tolerant of behavior that we find unattractive...but unless constant deposits are made in the "love bank", love can't continue to thrive.
Guest Posted September 20, 2006 Posted September 20, 2006 You don't get to change the language to suit you. 'Unconditional' does not mean 'with a couple of conditions' or 'with conditions that you pretend are not conditions by calling them 'just love' or whatever'. The word 'unconditional' means 'without conditions'. Period. If you want to talk about forgiving love or compassionate love, go ahead, but calling a fork 'a spade without a traditional shape and no tines' does not make it a spade.
RecordProducer Posted September 20, 2006 Posted September 20, 2006 The only hint of unconditional love that exists is between parent and infant child. Every other form of love, without exception, is conditional, and that is how it should be. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No other love in this world is unconditional. I will love my sons no matter what they do. No matter what! I can't say that about my husband. If he sticks his dick in another woman - he is out of my life. How is that unconditional? If he rapes my sister, I should still love him? That would be unconditional... My children and my parents are my only true friends. I think having them in my life, as wonderful as they are, actually disturbs my potential relationships with other people, because I can't find that kind of love with anyone else. So I give up very soon...
Author jmargel Posted September 20, 2006 Author Posted September 20, 2006 I'm glad there's quite a bit of responses on here. It seems that some people can't seperate unconditional from unjust. I can unconditionally love someone to let them go so that they can correct themselves for someone they might perhaps have a relationship in the future with. If they were to cheat on their spouse the cheated one could end the relationship because it was just. However like I said before it only stays as an unconditional love if the cheated one has the intention of correction, not punishment. Rooster_DAR, if one does not believe in God when they die, God will not love them any less. However this person has a character flaw that cannot be corrected. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own choices. God doesn't decide on whether you goto heaven or hell. There are laws made (such as the 10 commandments) which dictate this. I am also not saying just because you don't believe in God that you cannot believe in unconditional love. IMO if you don't believe in either of these you are missing out on life's greatest gifts. I agree that religion, along with loving someone is based on 'faith'. Our lives don't come with an instruction booklet so we don't know what's on next page. We need to use this same type of faith about God & unconditional love as the faith we use that we won't get killed in a car accident on the way home from work tonight.
blind_otter Posted September 20, 2006 Posted September 20, 2006 I'm glad there's quite a bit of responses on here. It seems that some people can't seperate unconditional from unjust. I can unconditionally love someone to let them go so that they can correct themselves for someone they might perhaps have a relationship in the future with. If they were to cheat on their spouse the cheated one could end the relationship because it was just. However like I said before it only stays as an unconditional love if the cheated one has the intention of correction, not punishment. I just don't get that at all. Whenever anyone is "wronged" they tend to initially get defensive and pissed off and angry. If you love someone unconditionally you would be able to let them go without any anger. I've seen it over and over again. And that anger may fade, with time, as you come to terms with the betrayal -- but the fact that it came up at all seems to be mutually exclusive to the concept of unconditional love. Which was popularized in the 1960s by humanistic psychologists. I might add. In my religious studies I certainly have read of examples of this type of emotion. Mainly related to holy people, saints, bodhisattvas, that sort of thing. I mean, IMO this is what differentiates a saintly individual from a regular person struggling with life -- the person who is enlightened, blessed, filled with grace -- whatever you want to call it -- is capable of extending compassion beyond themselves. But IME this is extremely difficult for people who are not blessed, enlightened, or at the very least extremely spiritually inclined, to extend this emotion to themselves. Much less other people.
Art_Critic Posted September 21, 2006 Posted September 21, 2006 However this person has a character flaw that cannot be corrected. I cannot believe that you think that because a person doesn't believe in your religion or your god that they have a character defect. That is almost insulting to any normal persons intelligence that you are arrogant enough to believe your way is the only way or that a person has a fault that cannot be corrected because you differ in their belief system Did I read your statement correct ? or did I misread it ? I have always had alot of respect for your viewpoints on ls and they are always enlightening...until this one.
Rooster_DAR Posted September 21, 2006 Posted September 21, 2006 I cannot believe that you think that because a person doesn't believe in your religion or your god that they have a character defect. That is almost insulting to any normal persons intelligence that you are arrogant enough to believe your way is the only way or that a person has a fault that cannot be corrected because they differ in their belief system Did I read your statement correct ? or did I misread it ? I have always had alot of respect for your viewpoints on ls and they are always enlightening...until this one. Exactly! That's all I was trying to point out.
lurkernomore Posted September 21, 2006 Posted September 21, 2006 Unconditional love does not exist in romantic relationships, and trying to separate conditions from justice or correction from punishment is, to me, a meaningless game of semantics. JMargel, I hope that the irony of your professing the wonders of unconditional love on this board of all places is not lost on you. I believe that romantic love is made more precious, more poignant, by its conditional nature. When both lovers acknowledge their own power to destroy the relationship, when both take on the weighty responsibility of constantly working to meet each other's needs and conditions, something beautiful emerges -- trust, respect, and, yes, love. 2long, this kind of love is, as you say, a choice; I would posit that the hard-won love that exists now between you and your wife depends upon -- is conditioned upon -- that choice. I don't believe in God. I know that statement alone is enough for JMargel and many others to flip the switch on me and assume that I am missing out on life's greatest gift. Yet I believe that life itself -- the life we experience every day here on planet earth -- is life's greatest gift. Even in its darkest moments, it seems blasphemous to wish for another life, an after life, when our human lives, borne of a near-infinite number of contingencies, are such a miraculous gift. Thank you for the discussion, JMargel. It is an important discussion. I hope you are open to being swayed by your own thread. I hope you will consider the beauty of conditional love.
EnigmaXOXO Posted September 21, 2006 Posted September 21, 2006 For me, there is a difference between romantic love and familial love. From my romantic partner I require a different level of emotional and physical intimacy than I do from my parents, sibling or daughter. That connection (or bond) is totally different when you look at these two types of loving relationships. With romantic relationships, physical intimacy is highly dependant upon emotional intimacy … and both kinds of intimacy are highly dependant upon certain "conditions" being met. Not to say that one doesn't often exist without the other, but I'm reminded of how many couples who've been together for years and years often describe their marriage partner as a "roommate" or "sibling." While there is the love of familiarity … and a genuine caring for one another … the deeper intimacy that usually defines a loving, romantic relationship has changed into more of a familial kind of love. The same goes for those who are with emotionally troubled partners who often describe their frustrations as feeling like a "parent" to their partner rather than an equal. Some people might define this as "unconditional" love, while others might call it inertia. As a parent, sibling and daughter … I know what it is to feel "unconditional" love for someone in spite of the fact you may not necessarily like each other all of the time, nor could you imagine living with them 24/7. But romantic love (for me) is conditional as hell. While I may always genuinely care about another person's well-being, having been where I've been and seen what I've seen, I can't help but feel somewhat alarmed at the expectation of proving (or aspiring to) this notion "unconditional" romantic love. Particularly when it pertains to co-dependants in abusive and unhealthy relationships who might find it a glorified reason to continue martyring themselves because they haven't the courage, confidence or self-love to leave a bad situation.
CarryingOn123 Posted September 22, 2006 Posted September 22, 2006 I definitely feel that romantic love is conditional- Conditional on your partner feeling as intensly for you, and behaving thus. like many of the posters here, I dont think true love is unconditional. To make a slightly controversial statement; I dont think that unconditional love is true even among family. Before you all jump up, let me explain. I am not talking about small things or even major things which have hurt you. I am talking about situations where that has been the only relationship that you know with the person (consitently and exclusively hurtful and loveless fron that side). In that case, i dont think your continued support of this person is due to unconditional love, rather a sense of loyalty and belonging- kind of a sense of bond due to being part of the same family... Just something to think about.... I am myself trying to examine these thoughts more deeply, but thought I'd write what I thought here.
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