jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 That's where it is all at. In my opinion, if you have not loved someone with unconditional love before you die, then you failed to achieve one of the greatest things life has to offer. Unconditional love is a love that has no 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts'. It's a love that is equivelent that God has for us. It's a love that allows you to work through the past and focus on the future. It's a love that does not resort to punishment but to correction if a spouse does something that negativitly affects the relationship. Unconditional love focuses on forgiveness and the wanting to move forward. You give unconditional love with the understanding that you might not get the love returned to you. Though unconditional love allows for the other spouse to make mistakes it is also a just love. It's a love that will allow others to make the corrections they need in order to make the relationship healthy again. As for what these corrections are it is upto the spouse who has this unconditional love for their mate. If you are in a marriage/relationship that has a conditional love, then it will fail. You are basing your love on what you are expecting in return. If one spouse abuses, cheats, etc.. then that is not unconditional love. That is a self-serving love in which you are putting yourself above your spouse. What one must understand is if you cheat the conditional love that you are giving your spouse and the other person will not last. It's a temporary gratification that has a very high price that you must pay. The price you pay is not worth the instant 'fix' that you feel when you are with someone that gives you attention based on their own wants. Though your spouse who you cheat on gives you unconditional love, the correction they may impose on you might be severe as to leave you. This is not punishment in their eyes but as a correction to show you what it really takes to truly love somebody. It's a way for the cheater to open their eyes and to see what they have given up; a love that cannot be replaced. The only way to achieve unconditional love is to believe. To have faith and to have enough strength in yourself and your God. IMO it is one of the best things that one can feel for another. It's a feeling that involves alot of risk, however not taking that risk will only lead you to a lonely life. Unless you take that risk you are not embracing one of life's greatest gifts. So what I am getting at and would want your opinions on this. For a marriage to truly be a happy marriage both partners must have an unconditional love for each other. For a marriage to even have a chance, one must have enough unconditional love & strength if the other spouse doesn't, with the hope that this other spouse will find the right path & give this love back.
superconductor Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 The only hint of unconditional love that exists is between parent and infant child. Every other form of love, without exception, is conditional, and that is how it should be.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 I disagree. The love God has for you is unconditional. The love that you should have for your spouse should be unconditional. A marriage is not about what you can get out of it. Unconditional love is something that is given without the expectation that it will get fully returned to you all of the time.
superconductor Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 The love God has for you is unconditional. No it isn't. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable, according to Mark 3:29, and is also referenced in Luke 12:10 and Matthew 12:31, 32. The love that you should have for your spouse should be unconditional. No it shouldn't. Abuse, addiction, taking advantage of those unable to care for themselves are, and should be, deal-breakers. A marriage is not about what you can get out of it. Here, we agree.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 I think you skipped the part that unconditional love is also a just love. That if one cheats or abuses and the spouse who has the unconditional love decides to end it, it's not because of punishment. It's for the hope of correction and the only way correction can be made is for the cheater to experience what they have lost. And for Mark 3:29, I agree with you. When one does not believe in God (or in this case love) then that is a character fault. When that person dies they will still be cursing God or in this case not have any belief in love. When one does not believe in love then there is no way to cure this person. This is a person that will live in a life of destitude and despair and like I said not embrace what one of life's greatest gifts.
Adunaphel Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I'd like to manage to love myself with unconditional love before I die.
Mz. Pixie Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Nice post JM. Are things looking up in your world?? I think unconditional love is hard between spouses myself. Like the OP said, things like drug addiction and infidelity can make one lose unconditional love for their partner. For instance I can say that if my child ever did those things then I would be upset with them but I'd still love them and I wouldn't break my relationship with them. If my spouse did those things- like develop a severe drug or alcohol problem that they wouldn't seek treatment for then I'd have to rethink staying in the relationship. That's where I think it's not the same.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 Nice post JM. Are things looking up in your world?? I think unconditional love is hard between spouses myself. Like the OP said, things like drug addiction and infidelity can make one lose unconditional love for their partner. For instance I can say that if my child ever did those things then I would be upset with them but I'd still love them and I wouldn't break my relationship with them. If my spouse did those things- like develop a severe drug or alcohol problem that they wouldn't seek treatment for then I'd have to rethink staying in the relationship. That's where I think it's not the same. Would you not try the same tactics to help them with their alcohol/drug abuse if it was your son or husband? Why would you stop loving your husband and not your son if they both had a drug problem that they couldn't kick? One of the differences between your son & husband is that the husband has the ability to cheat on you, whereas your son could not. The only way I could even compare that would be if your son would disown you for no reason and consider another woman as his mother. Even if that were the case would you not try similiar tactics to help show them the right path? As for repercussions for their actions, unconditional love is also a just love. Just like the love God has for you. The things you would do for your spouse/son in terms of these repercussions would not be as a punishment or as a way for you to get out of the situation but with the intention that it would be a correction. IMO that's the only way to show this type of love. Adunaphel, you make a good point. You need to love yourself as well as the ones around you. If you don't, the relationships you are in will have alot of strife.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Would you not try the same tactics to help them with their alcohol/drug abuse if it was your son or husband? Why would you stop loving your husband and not your son if they both had a drug problem that they couldn't kick? Well this wouldn't help anyways, JMargel. The best way to approach a drug or alcohol problem with someone you love is to force them to deal with it themselves by withdrawing support. Anyways, unconditional love isn't really possible with a romantic partner. Part and parcel of the interaction is that you have expectations of their behavior, and they bring their past baggage to the table. IMO unconditional love is possible with parent-child relationships because the child doesn't bring a past to deal with to the relationship. The parent is more able to accept and forgive because they know that the attitude and behaior their child projects stems directly from what the parent has taught the child. IMO it is unrealistic to expect unconditional love from a romantic partner. A human being is not capable of the same emotions that God has. You know, God being infinite, omnipotent, and omnipresent. It just seems like a bit much. It's better to attempt to achieve unconditional love for yourself. Once you have attained that goal, it's much more possible to cultivate unconditional love for all beings. Which is more along the lines of what Jesus taught. I'm just saying.
tanbark813 Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 That if one cheats or abuses and the spouse who has the unconditional love decides to end it, it's not because of punishment. If there exist reasons for which that love can be ended then it's not unconditional. You contradicted your whole thread.
a4a Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 No such thing as unconditional love. Unless you are some whack job type stalker.
quankanne Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 IMO it is unrealistic to expect unconditional love from a romantic partner. A human being is not capable of the same emotions that God has. You know, God being infinite, omnipotent, and omnipresent. It just seems like a bit much. I think what his original post is about moving toward that goal of unconditional love between a couple, and striving to reflect that love shown us by God and (for many of us,) parent. yes, there are deal-breakers involved, but as you move toward the kind of love JM's talking about, it becomes less about you and how you're affected and more centered on y'all as a couple. And it becomes easier to practice that unconditional love because you become a more forgiving person. Even when the other person poops on you, your hurt and anger is tempered by that love and you are more concerned about a "just punishment" rather than one made in anger. I think a healthy marital relationship – where both parties strive to give the relationship their best more often than their worst – moves towards that state of unconditional love when the couple isn't unyielding, but is flexible in love and forgivenness.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I don't understand how this is possible, because of the way human beings cognitively process emotion -- human nature is naturally self-biased. It's a survival instinct that has helped our species endure for as long as it has, which isn't even that long in geological time. Unconditional love cannot be based on performance or living up to expectations. So if your spouse cheats on you, beats you, degrades you -- you should by definition continue to love them. Right? That's what unconditional love is -- absolute acceptance in all scenarios. No punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do I have the definition of unconditional love all wrong? Because the whole "unconditional" part gives me the heebie jeebies.
Art_Critic Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 ALL relationships are conditional.. Unconditional love also doesn't always exist between a parent and child. The love that starts out as unconditional becomes conditional as time goes by. Basically the idea of unconditional love was created by a romantic and doesn't exist in reality.. only in peoples minds. Didn't Alpha have a thread about this a while back ago ?
quankanne Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I don't understand how this is possible, because of the way human beings cognitively process emotion -- human nature is naturally self-biased. It's a survival instinct that has helped our species endure for as long as it has, which isn't even that long in geological time. that's where the leap of faith comes into a relationship – flexibility and forgivingness are acquired habits, but not totally foreign to said relationship. That's what unconditional love is -- absolute acceptance in all scenarios. No punishment. it's not about being walked all over, because the need for respect in a relationship is always there. I guess you could say it's in the manner how you respond when faced with a situation like abuse: you still might love the person, but you refuse to put up with that kind of crap. But because you love that person, you most likely will try to be fair in your response, even if the response is to flee. Walking away but doing your best to help the abuser overcome his nature is a whole other ball of wax than hiring a couple of goons to break his legs.
quankanne Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Basically the idea of unconditional love was created by a romantic and doesn't exist in reality.. only in peoples minds. doesn't stop people from striving for that ideal, though.
tanbark813 Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Walking away but doing your best to help the abuser overcome his nature is a whole other ball of wax than hiring a couple of goons to break his legs. They're both still conditional.
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 They're both still conditional. I was gonna say. If it were unconditional love wouldn't you just keep loving them even as they beat you to death? If you impose conditions - like "you are not allowed to hit me" then it's not longer unconditional. By definition. I'm just saying. The whole concept is pretty fruity to me.
tanbark813 Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I was gonna say. If it were unconditional love wouldn't you just keep loving them even as they beat you to death? If you impose conditions - like "you are not allowed to hit me" then it's not longer unconditional. By definition. I'm just saying. The whole concept is pretty fruity to me. Agreed 100%.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 I was gonna say. If it were unconditional love wouldn't you just keep loving them even as they beat you to death? If you impose conditions - like "you are not allowed to hit me" then it's not longer unconditional. By definition. I'm just saying. The whole concept is pretty fruity to me. You would still continue to love them, that doesn't mean you have to love what they have done to you. Remember just because it's an unconditional love doesn't make it an unjust love. If you have a spouse who is abusing you, unconditional love is a love that will not stop you from loving them, however any reaction by the abused spouse should be based on the intention of helping them correct their behavior. Even if it means leaving that person for good. To show them what they really lost in life due to their actions. It's a love that won't show resentment or anger towards the person who abused you. If you impose conditions - like "you are not allowed to hit me" then it's not longer unconditional. By definition. Wrong. Unconditonal doesn't mean unjust. It means "Even if you hit me, I will still love you; however I do not need to take the abuse. If I leave you because of this abuse it's with my intention of wanting to correct your behavior in the future either with me or someone else that you meet in the future". Like another poster put it, hiring some guys to come and break the abuser's legs is not unconditional love. You are not showing love by doing those actions. You become as bad as the abuser himself.
Owl Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Well, I have to admit I don't believe in "unconditional love". You can't continue to love someone who doesn't return that love, and who constantly works to destroy that love. Take a look at the marriagebuilders "Love Bank" concept. That seems like a much more accurate reflection of how love (as an emotion) tends to work. Love (between people at least) IS conditional. The more someone shows you things about them that you love (i.e...how they act, what they do, etc...), the more you "love" them. If they DON'T show you these things, you won't love them. If true "unconditional love" existed, we'd all be in love with each other. There'd be no "special person" for anyone...because you'd love them REGARDLESS of the things that make them different from everyone else. Ergo, you'd be in love with everyone...because there would be no distinction between anyone. Now...people do tend to be more FORGIVING of flaws in the person that they love than they do in others. But that's not the same thing. Just my opinion.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 IMO that doesn't mean you'll fall in love with everyone. In the universal sense, love is the divine power of attraction in creation that harmonizes, unites, binds together. You wouldn't have these feelings for everyone in the world. This is what makes your mate special from everyone else in the world. Ordinary love is selfish. When you think about it, it is. It's what you do to get something back in return. And when one doesn't feel like they are getting back what they invested then things turn ugly. Unconditional love is the opposite. It goes beyond what you desire. It the idea of giving something without expecting the same in return. It must be an absolute love, unrestricted by human feelings or failings, since the very meaning of the word is "absolute."
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Wrong. Unconditonal doesn't mean unjust. It means "Even if you hit me, I will still love you; however I do not need to take the abuse. If I leave you because of this abuse it's with my intention of wanting to correct your behavior in the future either with me or someone else that you meet in the future". No offense, but isn't that imposing conditions? Maybe I'm arguing semantics here, but IMO the concept of unconditional love, was popularized on a false basis. What frustrates me is that I can't find any good research on this topic. Just smarmy self-help crap. I also cannot, for the LIFE of me, find a good definition of the concept. If we don't know what it is, then we can't really exchange ideas about it on a satisfying level because we're all speaking from personal interpretation.
Author jmargel Posted September 19, 2006 Author Posted September 19, 2006 No that is not a condition. It's a just. Just because you decide to move on it's still unconditional as long as you have the intention of correction rather than punishment. Even God's love is just. Though unconditional if one never believed in God and at the hour of death this person still cursed or did not believe in God, this is the just for them not reaching heaven, even though God still loves them. It is a character flaw which cannot be changed, thus like in not having the ability to love unconditionally they will be forever in despair. I believe the definition of unconditional what I mentioned in my previous post. Which is: It must be an absolute love, unrestricted by human feelings or failings, since the very meaning of the word is "absolute."
blind_otter Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I believe the definition of unconditional what I mentioned in my previous post. Which is: It must be an absolute love, unrestricted by human feelings or failings, since the very meaning of the word is "absolute." That lacks anykind of philosophical rigor IMO. You can't define a term and use the words "I believe" that is a belief, not a definition. I would be much less skeptical if there was a widely accepted definition and body of research on the topic. But there isn't. Which tells me that this is pop psychology, not true psychology. I'm not trying to knock you down, forgive me if I'm being overly intellectually aggressive. I'm frustrated with the terminology. It just doesn't seem concrete at all, and the only reading I can find on the subject deals almost exclusively with God. I cannot for the life of me comprehend how it would be possible for a human being to provide unconditional love. It's cognitively impossible. We are by nature self-centered beings. Even altruism can be explained through selfish motivations, not the negative connotation of teh word as used in the vernacular, but the actual term "selfish" -- focused on and concerning the self. Our brains are designed to process the thoughts and perceptions of one indvidual, and every moment you think, your thoughts, perceptions, andfeelings are colored by your past, your experiences, and your bias. How is it possible to erase that self-bias? This would be a mandatory pre-requisite for unconditional love, philosophically. Wouldn't it?
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