Enuff' PM's People....I'll explain....

[Moose]

I've been called on a post by more than one person on this, so I thought I'd address it.

 

Though some of you hate to admit it, there are a lot of other members and guests who actually look for my posts to get my POV.

 

That could be good, and that could be bad. However, I've been told that certain members expect certain things to come out of my posts.

 

These people know who they are, and I have to say that I greatly appreciated their input, and it is causing me to seek guidance in the matter, in accordance to scripture.

 

The post that I'm talking about involved a husband who entrusted a friend to take his wife to an activity while the husband was away on business.

 

Well, if this was posted on LS, you can imagine what happened. Long story short, I had said that if I were in the husband's shoes, my, "friend", would've suffered an unfortunate episode that would end with permanent health issues.

 

This isn't the typical Christian response, and I am well aware of that.

 

It is, however, my, "straw" so to speak.

 

I've been through all of the violence a kid could go through thanks to my second step dad. I've been shoved through walls, kicked while I was down, wrestled into subjection, beaten to a pulp and lain unconscience while the Sheriff steps over my body only to cash in on a bribe and leave again...

 

Even at 12 years old, I knew that God would carry me through, but I had to solidify His promise with one of my own. So I made a contract with Him that if He did carry me through, I promised my family, MY own family would never, EVER have to go through what I went through.

 

My sons and daughters will never have to worry about divorce, abuse, or abandonment. The won't have to endure impossible chores or have unreasonable expectations. The will always have a father to talk to, and one that'll listen. They will always have a mother that'll see them off to school, and be home waiting for them when they get back.

 

And finally, they will never, as long as the man typing this lives, have to worry about someone outside of the family harming them without reprocussions. The sheriff won't even need to bother visiting me.

 

There is nothing on this Earth that anyone could do to me that would cause me to strike another man, unless it be against my wife or my children.

 

It is my duty to protect my family. To defend my family. And I may even say to protect their honor.

 

But revenge? We all know that vengeance belongs to the Lord. That we should forgive and love our enemies. To treat those who've wronged us with love, and kindness......to even clothe and feed them......

 

Even while knowing this, it is still in my heart, and I know in my mind that if something like this ever did happen to me and my wife, I would seek out revenge. I would have to. I would never have peace about it unless I did.

 

Granted, the friend wouldn't know what hit him, and therefore wouldn't know if it was me that did it. But I and God would.

 

Everyone has that straw that breaks the camels back. All deals are off. The gloves are thrown to the ground, and it's bare fistin' time.

 

This is mine.

[bluetuesday]

moose, i know a little of your background and what you went through has clearly had a terrible effect, as it almost always does.

 

but i am going to be honest with you. you are not talking as a christian. i don't care if you think you are a christian, this post shows that what you say and do are different. you cannot be a christian sunday to friday and do what you like on saturday. you either are, or you are not.

 

if you could strike another man into serious health issues, if you could happily hurt someone for hurting your own, you have made a pact with the devil. i don't care what you promised 'god'. that deal was made out of anger, it was made out of faithlessness and it was made out of a blatant refusal to accept that the other person is a child of god too. i assure you, god played no part in it.

 

you say you have searched your soul and looked to scripture for answers. tell me where you found a passage to back up going against EVERYTHING jesus taught you about love, forgiveness and tolerance. tell me where you found a passage stating that god condones the use of physical force and wants us to respond to violence with violence. tell me where you found a passage stating that seeking revenge first is a way to the kingdom of god.

 

i am sorry, but you are so fired up with self-righteousness and the dispensing of your own justice that you are cutting god completely out of this situation.

 

seek revenge, hold violent thoughts, throw away your spiritual life if you must, but do not do it in the name of god. i tell you, moose, the holy spirit cannot reside within a heart that hell bent on personal revenge, and you know it.

[alphamale]

there are a lot of other members and guests who actually look for my posts to get my POV..

I am not one of them...trust me.

[superconductor]

this post shows that what you say and do are different. you cannot be a christian sunday to friday and do what you like on saturday.

I'm the last guy on the planet who'd defend Christianity...

 

... but...

 

According to the bible, we're all sinners, we're all "fallen" (whatever that means) and we all need grace.

 

Do Christians have non-Christian thoughts? Yes, of course. Do Christians stray from the "path of righteousness" (also, not sure what that means) occasionally? Absolutely. Are Christians hypocritical? Naturally, just like non-Christians are.

 

We're human. We are full of hypocrisy and faults and foibles and other flotsam & jetsam that comes with being flesh-and-blood.

 

"Let he who is without sin..." Well, you know the rest.

[bluetuesday]

Do Christians have non-Christian thoughts? Yes, of course. Do Christians stray from the "path of righteousness" (also, not sure what that means) occasionally? Absolutely. Are Christians hypocritical? Naturally, just like non-Christians are.

 

We're human. We are full of hypocricy and faults and foibles and other flotsam & jetsam that comes with being flesh-and-blood.

 

"Let he who is without sin..." Well, you know the rest.

 

perhaps the christians you know don't let it affect their lives too much. perhaps they are christians in name only. however, being a christian should change you, you should be spiritually reborn, or you're not doing it right.

 

moose is not talking about accidentally falling off the christian wagon. he is talking about premeditated anger and violence. even having had time to think about jesus' command to love, he wants - no, he is determined - should the opportunity arise, to flout it. that's very different to a slip up.

 

same as you'd get more jail time for premeditated murder than for a crime of passion. i'm just saying.

[CrushedOrgans]

I am not one of them...trust me.

 

neither am i...

 

i am wondering why someone's very personal disclaimer/confessional crap is out here though. it seems awfully inappropriate. in my opinion.

 

maybe i just don't go for the very aloof, high-horse, preachy "vengeance will be miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine" stuff. having passion is great. "proving yourself" to an online forum by being overly dramatic and boastful is a wee bit obnoxious.

[alphamale]

maybe i just don't go for the very aloof, high-horse, preachy "vengeance will be miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine" stuff. having passion is great. "proving yourself" to an online forum by being overly dramatic and boastful is a wee bit obnoxious.

MOOSE likes to think the universe revolves around him...

[quankanne]

gee alpha, I thought that was you :laugh:

 

moose is not talking about accidentally falling off the christian wagon. he is talking about premeditated anger and violence. even having had time to think about jesus' command to love, he wants - no, he is determined - should the opportunity arise, to flout it. that's very different to a slip up.

 

actually, I think he's being brutally honest about himself. Just because he says this is how he would respond doesn't mean that God, at some point, could move his heart to act otherwise. I know that it's only been the grace of God that I've not gone that route that I said I probably would have in my marriage, given certain instances, so I can understand Moose's saying what he has. It doesn't make us any less a child of God than someone who is committed and brave enough to open say he'll turn the other cheek each and every time an act is committed against him/the ones he loves.

[basscatcher]

There is nothing on this Earth that anyone could do to me that would cause me to strike another man, unless it be against my wife or my children.

 

It is my duty to protect my family. To defend my family. And I may even say to protect their honor.

 

Even while knowing this, it is still in my heart, and I know in my mind that if something like this ever did happen to me and my wife, I would seek out revenge. I would have to. I would never have peace about it unless I did.

 

Granted, the friend wouldn't know what hit him, and therefore wouldn't know if it was me that did it. But I and God would.

 

Everyone has that straw that breaks the camels back. All deals are off. The gloves are thrown to the ground, and it's bare fistin' time.

 

This is mine.

 

When a man marry's a woman he vows to honor her and protect her for the rest of his life. This includes the children.

 

I don't think anyone should condemn Moose for his beliefs.

He is willing to be a real man who will fight to the death to protect his wife and children. It is his responsiblity and duty even in the eyes of christianity. God does not tell us to NOT defend ourself and what is ours.. He doesn't want us to go out and intentionally cause harm. In self defense it is acceptable.

 

If his wife and children are harmed by all means I believe he has a right to honor them and protect them by all means necessary..

[Touche]

Pada, I completely agree with you but I don't think what we're talking about here is a case of "self-defense."

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but we're talking about revenge here not self-defense are we not?

[Moose]

No, I don't think the world revolves around me, ALPHA. I just had several people send me PMs so I thought I'd get it out in the open and clarify once, not several times over and over again. If some of you think it's inappropriate, or that I need to prove myself.....that's too bad. That's not my intentions.

 

My main purpose is just to clarify that though I am a Christian, I'm not friggin' perfect and people need to see that!

 

There has only been ONE perfect Christian. There will NEVER be another one.

i don't care if you think you are a christian, this post shows that what you say and do are different.

Careful there....you've almost judged me.

if you could strike another man into serious health issues,if you could happily hurt someone for hurting your own,

What is this, "happily" crap? How would this make me happy? You think I'm waiting for an opportunity to jump on it or something? That is ridiculous!! I would in no way shape or form be happy about having to hurt someone. It would just about kill me to have to do so! No, I didn't find scripture that says we should physically harm those that physically harm our families.....but I also haven't found any scripture that says I shouldn't or can't.

 

I openely admitted that this is an area in which I've struggled with, and you come in here and use it to jump down my throat.

 

Where is your edifying spirit now?

[basscatcher]

Pada, I completely agree with you but I don't think what we're talking about here is a case of "self-defense."

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but we're talking about revenge here not self-defense are we not?

 

Well in my opinion as a mother. If someone hurt my son. I would seek that person out and do some of my own damage. Seeking out the perp is revenge but I also consider that self defense in this case. In my book it goes hand in hand.. I wouldn't kill but I would certainly maim.

 

(might be why I dont' own a gun..)

[Moose]

but I also haven't found any scripture that says I shouldn't or can't.

I need to clarify this. I'm speaking of an exact situation like this example. I can't find anything similiar to it in scripture.

[Touche]

Well in my opinion as a mother. If someone hurt my son. I would seek that person out and do some of my own damage. Seeking out the perp is revenge but I also consider that self defense in this case. In my book it goes hand in hand.. I wouldn't kill but I would certainly maim.

 

(might be why I dont' own a gun..)

 

Hey, I'm not saying I wouldn't do the very SAME thing such as you describe BUT, it's still revenge and not self-defense if the damage was done and there's no immediate threat.

 

Anyway, what Moose is talking about, to my eyes, is in no way self-defense. It's purely for revenge.

 

I'm not a scholar of the Bible but isn't there a line about "turning the other cheek?"

[Moose]

I'm not a scholar of the Bible but isn't there a line about "turning the other cheek?"

Yes, there is.

 

And I can gladly do that if the damage was being done to me. I can turn, "cheeks", all day long.....I don't have a problem with having to do that.

 

My problem is that if someone harms my wife or kids, I don't think that I could turn the other cheek.

 

I don't think I'd even try. That's the problem......

[johan]

I have an urge to turn both my cheeks in your direction. Does that make me twice as good?

[a4a]

I have an urge to turn both my cheeks in your direction. Does that make me twice as good?

 

 

thanks...... diet coke all over laptop..... out the nose too

[Moose]

I have an urge to turn both my cheeks in your direction. Does that make me twice as good?

Pretty good johan!

[Touche]

Moose I understand what you're saying but in the example of the thread in question no harm was done to the wife. She was a willing (albeit inebriated) participant. So I don't understand why, in that situation, you'd be compelled to beat the crap out of the guy.

[a4a]

Moose I understand what you're saying but in the example of the thread in question no harm was done to the wife. She was a willing (albeit inebriated) participant. So I don't understand why, in that situation, you'd be compelled to beat the crap out of the guy.

 

 

violation or trespassing on private property perhaps?

[basscatcher]

I don't think I'd even try. That's the problem......

 

I don't find that a problem if it was done because of a big offense. Little offenses I'd say turn the other cheek. I find that honorable that a man will defend and protect as well as set the situation straight that the offense done was inappropriate and that it shall never be done again..

[Moose]

Moose I understand what you're saying but in the example of the thread in question no harm was done to the wife. She was a willing (albeit inebriated) participant. So I don't understand why, in that situation, you'd be compelled to beat the crap out of the guy.

I don't see how you can say there was no harm done to the wife.

 

He violated the marriage. Whether it was consential or not, he took advantage of the situation and broke the sanctity of this marriage.

 

Harm was done to both the wife AND the husband, I'm glad there isn't any children involved or he would've hurt them too....

[Art_Critic]

How is something being done to your wife or kids any different that something being done to yourself ?

 

Isn't it the same thing ? therefore if you can turn the other cheek if someone does something to you then you should be able to turn the other cheek if someone does something to your wife or kids ..

 

No judgement coming from me .. just an observation of your posts in this thread.

 

Maybe it is the way you are looking at it.

 

I'm the protective sort myself and would protect myself and family.. not just my family..

[bluetuesday]

There has only been ONE perfect Christian. There will NEVER be another one.

 

jesus said the things he had done, so could we do.

 

verily, verily, i say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that i do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because i go unto my father. (john 14:12)

 

paul echoed this when he said:

let this mind be in you, which was also in christ jesus. (philippians 2:5)

 

being human and knowing your limitations is different than using those limitations as an excuse for anti-christian behaviour.

 

Careful there....you've almost judged me.

 

i did not almost judge you. i did judge you, and because i feel strongly that you are acting out of accordance with your deepest held beliefs, i would do it again and again. i do not believe a loving god will punish me for trying to help you.

 

caring for someone does not mean letting them be hypocritical and not pointing it out. i have given you an opportunity to see things from a different angle. there is a difference between judgment from a human perspective and discernment of what is of god and what is not of god. i can call you on this because as far as your faith goes, you are out of alignment with it on this issue, moose. and someone needs to tell you. i would expect you to tell me. you cannot be willing to beat someone up and be a christian. they're mutually exclusive states. the same as you cannot hold anger in your heart and love. you indulge one, you lose the other.

 

What is this, "happily" crap? How would this make me happy?

 

i did not say it would make you happy. i said you would do it happily. meaning you would do it determinedly. you would see it through.

 

No, I didn't find scripture that says we should physically harm those that physically harm our families.....but I also haven't found any scripture that says I shouldn't or can't.

 

there is no scripture that says we shouldn't rip out the throats of our children when they come home after curfew either, but i'm sure you would agree it's a given. stop being so literal. there are many things the bible doesn't cover. violence is one it does.

 

I openely admitted that this is an area in which I've struggled with, and you come in here and use it to jump down my throat.

 

your defensiveness makes you wrongly perceive that i am jumping down your throat. in reality i am not. i am just pointing out something you have not seen for yourself. i am trying to do you a favour. take it or leave it.

[blind_otter]

Yes, there is.

 

And I can gladly do that if the damage was being done to me. I can turn, "cheeks", all day long.....I don't have a problem with having to do that.

 

My problem is that if someone harms my wife or kids, I don't think that I could turn the other cheek.

 

I don't think I'd even try. That's the problem......

 

Ego.

 

It's God'sjob to reward the righteous and punisher the wrong-doers. Wouldn't taking matters into your own hands be putting ego before God?

 

Yeah there was only one perfect Christian, but aren't we always supposed to be striving?

 

Let me take the example of rape, for instance. A lot of times family and friends and lovers want to inflict bodily harm on the rapist. I have worked on forgiveness, not always successfully, but if someone acted out against the people who hurt me, it would interfer.

 

Because I have the right to settle my own disputes. If anyone else becomes involved they just much things up and make it a lot more complicated.

 

And when you take responsibility for yourself, to allow God to come through you and do God's work -- you also take the responsibility of settling your own scores, through God....right? Do I have it all wrong?