Are OW immoral?

[BenThereDunThat]

Guest - I think along the same lines as you. I have to be completely honest. While I felt sorry for the W, I didn't end the A for her. I ended it for ME.

 

Even though the A is over, whatever problems are in their marriage are still there - one being that she's married to a man who sought outside companionship rather than dealing with their issues head-on, at home.

 

And until he can do that, chances are very good he will do it again.

[whichwayisup]

Why are almost all of you blaming the OW for this relationship? It appears that most of the time the OW is single (granted, not always). You all expect her to be the one to refuse the MM. She is being accused of "interfering" with the marriage. Give me a break!!

 

He is the one with the moral obligation to W. He is the one whose behavior could be called immoral. While many will say that their marriage ended because of an A, the reality is that the A happened because something was wrong with the marriage. The OW is a symptom of a bad marriage, not a reason.

 

Historically there have been mistresses in many cultures and in many times. These mistresses were not always hidden away and shunned, but were accepted in society and even held high stature. It was not considered immoral to be or to have an OW.

 

In short, why does anyone think that OW has any obligation to the marriage? That is MM's responsibility and his issues to deal with. The OW has to deal with a relationship that is most likely not what she had ever planned on having. She has to decide whether continuing it is best for her.

 

That being said, she agonizes through all the other issues that aren't hers because that's what we women do. We care about what MM is going through, and we do think about W and the kids and how hard the whole situation is on everyone.

 

Place the responsibility and obligation for/to the marriage where it belongs - with MM and W.

 

Uhmm, the OW must take responsibility for her part in this. She is NOT an innocent bystander when involved with a MM. This whole thread is directed at OW, about morality, and all who have answered have shared their thoughts.

 

The MM decides to cheat on his wife, he is cheating ON his wife, but the OW is parttaking IN the affair with the MM so again, she's not clueless, 100% innocent in it. The innocent people are the BS's and children. The other two have made a CHOICE, BS's and children DO NOT HAVE A SAY in the matter, period!

[yousaveme]

Why are almost all of you blaming the OW for this relationship? It appears that most of the time the OW is single (granted, not always). You all expect her to be the one to refuse the MM. She is being accused of "interfering" with the marriage. Give me a break!!

 

He is the one with the moral obligation to W. He is the one whose behavior could be called immoral. While many will say that their marriage ended because of an A, the reality is that the A happened because something was wrong with the marriage. The OW is a symptom of a bad marriage, not a reason.

 

Historically there have been mistresses in many cultures and in many times. These mistresses were not always hidden away and shunned, but were accepted in society and even held high stature. It was not considered immoral to be or to have an OW.

 

In short, why does anyone think that OW has any obligation to the marriage? That is MM's responsibility and his issues to deal with. The OW has to deal with a relationship that is most likely not what she had ever planned on having. She has to decide whether continuing it is best for her.

 

That being said, she agonizes through all the other issues that aren't hers because that's what we women do. We care about what MM is going through, and we do think about W and the kids and how hard the whole situation is on everyone.

 

Place the responsibility and obligation for/to the marriage where it belongs - with MM and W.

 

 

Thanks so much for your comment. Me being the OW i feel the same thing. Yes i feel bad for the W and I care about the feelings for the kids involved. But if there weren't issues in the marriage and they were truly a happy couple I or anyother OW wouldnt exist in this situation. Its not easy for my MM. He has two kids that he cares deeply for, but in a relationship with his W that isnt the best thing for him. They put on an act for the sake of the kids. They hardly communicate unless its about issues that need to be communicated about ( kids, bills etc..) There have been parties at their home at He is inside entertainig guest and shes be outside talking to a few people and never interacts with him.

They both feel the kids dont see the reality of the marriage. And she thinks that this is a benefit for the kids.

 

I hang on because of how i feel for him and how he feels for me. I know the feels are not one sided if not i would have left along time ago.

 

I do feel that both my MM and his W have a morality issue with their marriage being a lie. For whatever reason.

[Ladyjane14]

Why do you assume, Guest, that the OW or OM has a right to judge the state of someone else's marriage?

 

OW and OM have a VERY difficult time with the idea that others are "judging" them, and yet, so often.... they themselves have been the first to rush to "judgement". They decide for themselves, often based on just one side of the story, that the marriage they are interfering with is defunct, something with no intrinsic value. Unless they are 'a fly on the wall', observing every nuance of someone else's relationship, they have tried and convicted the BS based on hearsay alone, provided to them by an adulterer.

 

Yes... I think it's disrespectful and immoral to act out in a way that causes damage to another person.... REGARDLESS of the fact that the OW or OM isn't the one who made a vow of marriage. Do you walk around "vowing" to random people that you aren't going to hurt them? No... of course not. You refrain from hurting others because it's the right thing to do.

 

Unless of course... you can convict them of a "crime" first. Then you can give yourself permission to take of the kid-gloves I guess.

[norajane]

But if there weren't issues in the marriage and they were truly a happy couple I or anyother OW wouldnt exist in this situation.

See, that's not entirely true. The only reasons there is an OW is 1) he isn't willing to deal with the issues in his marriage in an honest, direct, productive way, 2) he chose to cheat, and 3) you (and the other OW's in his past) are willing and agreed to be an OW.

 

Plenty of people have issues in their marriage and aren't happy couples, but they don't cheat.

[lindya]

Why are almost all of you blaming the OW for this relationship? It appears that most of the time the OW is single (granted, not always). You all expect her to be the one to refuse the MM. She is being accused of "interfering" with the marriage. Give me a break!!

 

Looking before you leap is always a good idea. This was the original question that started the thread:

 

Just trying to figure myself up....Does being with a MM makes me immoral.

 

Had the question been about the perceived morality or immorality of the MM, then no doubt people would have addressed that - but in this case the poster was asking for opinions of her behaviour, not that of the married man.

[norajane]

See, that's not entirely true. The only reasons there is an OW is 1) he isn't willing to deal with the issues in his marriage in an honest, direct, productive way, 2) he chose to cheat, and 3) you (and the other OW's in his past) are willing and agreed to be an OW.

 

Plenty of people have issues in their marriage and aren't happy couples, but they don't cheat.

 

I should have also added, plenty of women meet and are even attracted to MM, but they choose not to get involved.

[yousaveme]

Uhmm, the OW must take responsibility for her part in this. She is NOT an innocent bystander when involved with a MM. This whole thread is directed at OW, about morality, and all who have answered have shared their thoughts.

 

The MM decides to cheat on his wife, he is cheating ON his wife, but the OW is parttaking IN the affair with the MM so again, she's not clueless, 100% innocent in it. The innocent people are the BS's and children. The other two have made a CHOICE, BS's and children DO NOT HAVE A SAY in the matter, period!

 

As for the above comment. I do feel the children are innocent in the situtation. In my situtation i feel like the kids are being lied to. Their parents arent happy with eachother. they dont show eachother any affection or compatability with eachother. I do feel for the W at somepoint and have even made my comments known to my MM. She is trying to continue and marriage that she puts no effort in keeping. Im not saying she is totally at blame for their marriage they both are 50% at fault.

As for the W not having a say...Since she found out yes she does have a say. She knows how he feels, he admitted it to her ( i heard it). She even admitted that he has stayed for the kids and not her. She makes comments continuly about that he loves me and misses me. She has a choice .

[UnknowingOW]

A post that will go against so many...

 

My questions is, who in the world has the right to define what is and isn't moral? Is judging someone else right?

 

Morality is self-defined; unless you are a believer in Judo-Christian ethics. But then again, those are just guidelines for how to you live your life.

 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not here to condem or agree with having a affair. To me everyone involved in the affair is hurt.

 

When you find yourself in an A, do you honestly think you are immoral? No, you've made a wrong choice which will bring pain and heartache into your life.

[Ladyjane14]

As for the above comment. I do feel the children are innocent in the situtation. In my situtation i feel like the kids are being lied to. Their parents arent happy with eachother.

 

People don't have to be knee-slappin' happy all the time though.

That's not a realistic expectation of life and committment.

 

What's in the best interest of children is first and foremost to attend to their basic needs... food, clothing, shelter, protection, emotional security. There are TOO MANY kids who are doing without those things, TOO MANY who end up in dangerous situations even.... when Dad leaves the home.

 

In general traditional terms Dad is both the provider AND protector of his offspring.

 

How many women do you know who grew up in a broken home and then found themselves molested or otherwise abused in their teen years? I personally know quite a few. How many men do you know that had to develop their own model of manhood? Again... I can think of quite a few.

 

My parents divorced just as I became a 'teen'. Within 18 months of their divorce, I was smoking cigarettes, smoking pot, drinking beer, and had become sexually active. I was 14 and a half years old. My mom was too busy working and enjoying her newfound freedom with man-boys who were 10 years younger. My dad was busy working to support his NEW family. Neither of them noticed what I and my siblings were up to.

 

So, in the end... my parents 'happiness' didn't exactly put me through college. Unless you include the school of hard knocks.

 

While I agree that some marriages can become damaging to children if the environment becomes toxic. For the most part, I think kids have a better chance at success when the are both physically and emotionally well supported.

 

Unfortunately, not everybody make sure that's what happens when they decide to divorce. Good intentions don't always come to fruition. At the end of the day... supporting two households is too often an expense that is paid for by a child's future.

[Ladyjane14]

Historically there have been mistresses in many cultures and in many times. These mistresses were not always hidden away and shunned, but were accepted in society and even held high stature. It was not considered immoral to be or to have an OW.

 

Would anyone want to return to a time where marriages were arranged as some sort of business partnership, and wealthy men could keep mistresses or engage in womanizing just so long as they were somewhat discreet???

 

It was a complete double-standard. If the MM's female counterpart engaged in adultery... it was considered a scandal. Her husband would be pitied as a cuckold and she, herself, would be shunned and outcast.

[yousaveme]

People don't have to be knee-slappin' happy all the time though.

That's not a realistic expectation of life and committment.

 

What's in the best interest of children is first and foremost to attend to their basic needs... food, clothing, shelter, protection, emotional security. There are TOO MANY kids who are doing without those things, TOO MANY who end up in dangerous situations even.... when Dad leaves the home.

 

In general traditional terms Dad is both the provider AND protector of his offspring.

 

How many women do you know who grew up in a broken home and then found themselves molested or otherwise abused in their teen years? I personally know quite a few. How many men do you know that had to develop their own model of manhood? Again... I can think of quite a few.

 

My parents divorced just as I became a 'teen'. Within 18 months of their divorce, I was smoking cigarettes, smoking pot, drinking beer, and had become sexually active. I was 14 and a half years old. My mom was too busy working and enjoying her newfound freedom with man-boys who were 10 years younger. My dad was busy working to support his NEW family. Neither of them noticed what I and my siblings were up to.

 

So, in the end... my parents 'happiness' didn't exactly put me through college. Unless you include the school of hard knocks.

 

While I agree that some marriages can become damaging to children if the environment becomes toxic. For the most part, I think kids have a better chance at success when the are both physically and emotionally well supported.

 

Unfortunately, not everybody make sure that's what happens when they decide to divorce. Good intentions don't always come to fruition. At the end of the day... supporting two households is too often an expense that is paid for by a child's future.

 

Sorry for your experience. And yes there are the horror stories and horrible experiences of divorce. My best friends parents divorced and her relationship with her parents became more fullfilled. Instead of her parents acting the part the focused their attention towards their children. Yes her parents met other people and had their own relationships. But first a foremost the kids came first and their parents partners respected that.

On the other hand i grew up with both parents. No they werent happy i only found out how unhappy they were in my twenties. My dad left for another woman. They are like bouncing balls back and forth. Getting back together and then parting again. Saying their too old for this Cr*p. Even though i had both parents. I too drank, was sexually active way before i was mature enough to handle it and got in my fair share of trouble. That was my mistakes not the mistakes of my parents. I dont know whether or not my choices as a teenager would have been different whether or not my parents stayed together or were seperated.

 

I do know my choices. Were just that MY CHOICES.

 

Parents take resposibility for their children whether or not they are together or not. And if they arent together then the children still come first. If the other man/woman cant handle that , then dont get involved with someone with children.

 

I would never ask my MM to put me before the kids. Ive made that clear. And he knows that.

[BenThereDunThat]

Would anyone want to return to a time where marriages were arranged as some sort of business partnership, and wealthy men could keep mistresses or engage in womanizing just so long as they were somewhat discreet???

 

It was a complete double-standard. If the MM's female counterpart engaged in adultery... it was considered a scandal. Her husband would be pitied as a cuckold and she, herself, would be shunned and outcast.

 

Shunned and outcast if she was lucky....most were killed.

 

This thread got me thinking about famous OWs...mostly Katherine Hepburn. I think she was an known as an extremely inteligent, independent, educated, opinionated, respected woman. Look how long she loved, and took care of, Spencer Tracy!

 

I don't remember her as an immoral woman. Because of the times they lived in and being Catholic, Spencer's wife would not grant him a divorce. Not only was he married, but he had a horrible drinking problem as well.

 

Me, personally, I could never live like that. But that was a choice she made and she never apologized for it or regretted it.

 

When he died, the love of her life, she would not go to the funeral out of respect for his wife.

 

I just thought that was so very sad. But again, she chose it, and never regretted it.

[Guest]

As for the above comment. I do feel the children are innocent in the situtation. In my situtation i feel like the kids are being lied to. Their parents arent happy with eachother. they dont show eachother any affection or compatability with eachother. I do feel for the W at somepoint and have even made my comments known to my MM. She is trying to continue and marriage that she puts no effort in keeping. Im not saying she is totally at blame for their marriage they both are 50% at fault.

 

As for the W not having a say...Since she found out yes she does have a say. She knows how he feels, he admitted it to her ( i heard it). She even admitted that he has stayed for the kids and not her. She makes comments continuly about that he loves me and misses me. She has a choice .

 

Yousavedme

 

Clearly you are following flawed logic. Just b/c she found out about you does not mean that she is to bow out so that you can have her H. Regardless of what you or any other OW think, she does indeed have a "claim" on a life with him until SHE or HE decides otherwise. He is telling you that he is there for the children. I would bet money that children or not, you still would be waiting for him to grow a backbone and move out.

 

As to the kids being lied to, they will not like it if they find out that you are a party to the hurt that they have seen their mother feel. Stop blaming his W. He has successfully projected his excuses onto your feelings. This is his mess.

 

BTW - for all others - I think that whether it is moral or not, to stop living your life by your own values is not being true to yourself or your heart. There is nothing authentic about dating a MP. And whenever we are not true to our own beliefs, there is always heartache to follow.

[NoIDidn't]

I would never ask my MM to put me before the kids. Ive made that clear. And he knows that.

 

And you will likely wait forever and ever and ever then. Always being second. Never being first. No one deserves that. No one desires that.

 

You think that you are cut out for this b/c of a few words out of your mouth to him about his relationship with his kids. Your health is in jeopardy. Your mental health is steadily going down the tubes.

 

I know that my words are not popular with you or other OW, but I hurt for you. All of you in the dreaded limbo of waiting for some conflict avoidant guy to be truthful to you or his W. This rollercoaster ride is wild. Get off while you still have time.

[Ladyjane14]

Because of the times they lived in and being Catholic, Spencer's wife would not grant him a divorce.

 

Yeah, that's a weird situation. It doesn't make much sense to me for a guy to stay married so as to be within the guidelines of his religious beliefs... and yet, continue to live in opposition of the sixth commandment.

[NoIDidn't]

I would never ask my MM to put me before the kids. Ive made that clear. And he knows that.

 

And you will likely wait forever and ever and ever then. Always being second. Never being first. No one deserves that. No one desires that.

 

You think that you are cut out for this b/c of a few words out of your mouth to him about his relationship with his kids. Your health is in jeopardy. Your mental health is steadily going down the tubes.

 

I know that my words are not popular with you or other OW, but I hurt for you. All of you in the dreaded limbo of waiting for some conflict avoidant guy to be truthful to you or his W. This rollercoaster ride is wild. Get off while you still have time.

[BenThereDunThat]

Yeah, that's a weird situation. It doesn't make much sense to me for a guy to stay married so as to be within the guidelines of his religious beliefs... and yet, continue to live in opposition of the sixth commandment.

 

Which could be part of the reason for the drinking problem. They were married on paper only though. The wife knew about Katherine - the whole world did! Maybe I have it wrong, but he did want out and tried to file, but she wouldn't grant it.

 

I guess in those days both parties had to agree? For me, in my state, being the petitioner, my divorce went through even though my husband did not want it. As long as I showed up in court and signed on the dotted line, it was done.

 

Sorry to get the thread off-topic. I'll shut up now.

 

Just something I was thinking about so thought I'd put it out there.

[Ladyjane14]

I guess in those days both parties had to agree? For me, in my state, being the petitioner, my divorce went through even though my husband did not want it. As long as I showed up in court and signed on the dotted line, it was done.

 

I don't know, hon. I know my great-grandmother divorced her first husband in the 1930's though. She said it was because he wouldn't work and she wasn't willing to financially support an able-bodied man.

 

It was right around the time of the Great Depression too. She was a tough ole bird.

But I just worshipped the ground she walked on anyway.

[BenThereDunThat]

I don't know, hon. I know my great-grandmother divorced her first husband in the 1930's though. She said it was because he wouldn't work and she wasn't willing to financially support an able-bodied man.

 

It was right around the time of the Great Depression too. She was a tough ole bird.

But I just worshipped the ground she walked on anyway.

 

Wow, I'll say! Good for great-granny!

 

Every woman should be so lucky to have such a strong role model in their family!

[scaredinlove]

It feels weird, doesn't it?

The set of values you believed in is sort of falling apart all around you.

 

 

I never thought I would stay in a situation like that either,and \never understood why people stay married when they are unhappy.But here I am going agaist what I once believed.

 

How about marriage it make make me wonders if it such a good thing because a lot of people seem to be unhappy.Some find A others diverce, but i haven't found a happy marriage yet.

 

I guess being a OW is immoral in this time and age, mybe in the future things will change and A will be accepted .It was accepted for man in the past.

 

It is a constant fight with myself, but nevertheless I feel happy most of the time.My MM brought me a lot of happiness and a lot of headache too, more hapiness .

though choses one makes

[silktricks]

A post that will go against so many...

 

My questions is, who in the world has the right to define what is and isn't moral? Is judging someone else right?

 

Morality is self-defined; unless you are a believer in Judo-Christian ethics. But then again, those are just guidelines for how to you live your life.

Morality is not self-defined, it is defined by the society in which you live. If you live in a Judeo-Christian society, then Judeo-Christian ethics are what define morality. If you live in a Buddhist society, then Buddhist ethics define morality. If you live in a <fill-in-the-blank> society than that society's ethics define morality

 

You can, of course, disagree with the ethics of the society you live in. Today's Western Culture, which is broadly based on Judeo-Christian ethics, allows great latitude of disagreement and break from the basic ethics of Western Culture without severe condemnation. Breaks that a mere 50 years ago would have brought extreme shame and ostracism are now widely accepted and viewed as the norm. Nonetheless, even now with that latitude, many actions outside of those accepted ethics are viewed as being immoral

 

One can, however, indulge in actions viewed as immoral without necessarily being considered an immoral person. For example, a person could shoplift. That action is immoral. It is stealing. The person who made that action, however, may not be overall an immoral person, there may be many reasons for their lapse in judgment, yet overall the person is a moral human. Lack of faith to one’s marriage vows may be similarly compared. A person may be unfaithful to their spouse for a period of time, whether relatively long or short. The actions the married person took outside of their marriage vows are immoral actions. That does not make the person an immoral person overall.

 

The actions the other woman or other man take in having an illicit relationship with a married person are similarly immoral. The immorality can be seen on a number of levels. They are willing taking part in a lie. They are in essence stealing. They are certainly coveting. They are hurting another person deeply. All of those actions in Western Culture (in fact in most cultures) are considered to be immoral actions. Again, though, the OW/OM may not be overall an immoral human being. This can be a lapse in judgment, just as can the actions of the MP be a lapse in judgment. If, however, this is a course of action that is repeated throughout their life, regardless of how enjoyable, how kind, how loving that person appears, IMHO that is a person who has no morals, therefore I (and most of society) would consider that person to be immoral.

 

To say, however, that the married person is immoral but the other person is not is simply ridiculous.

[Ladyjane14]

Great post, Silk. :bunny:

[RecordProducer]

Just trying to figure myself up....Does being with a MM makes me immoral.Cheating on my H makes me immoral.Did you ever asked yourselves these questions?Or am I just thinking too much?

Morality has many definitions. One of them IS that hurting someone else is immoral. Sleeping with a MM is definitely contributing to someone else's hurting, but I just don't see it that way.

 

It's MY husband who has to keep his pants zipped, not other women. But are they immoral? Hm... well the MM is the one who decided to cheat on his wife. The moment he made this decision, he betrayed his wife. Whether the OW sleeps with him or not won't make the betrayal any smaller.

 

If I would find out that my husband hit on some woman with the intention to sleep with her, whether she said YES or NO wouldn't make ANY difference in my heart whatsoever. I would dump him for being a cheater.

 

I certainly find it immoral to sleep with or hit on or flirt with your friend's husband.

[UnknowingOW]

First, I did not state that a married person was immoral and the other person is not.

 

Morality is self-defined because we are society, and we choose, or have been taught what morality is via religion, society, law, or self-imposed through our inner voice. But who defines right or worng conduct? Society, religion, and law...yes? So morals are self-defined because they are defined by socieity and we are society.

 

But, not all societies have the same ethical and moral codes as we do in the US. European counties are far less judgemental regarding affairs then in the US. Ethics and moralities change over time and cultures, and it is well documented throughout history. If we are going to look back at morals in history affairs used to be a standard in society many, many years ago, but not today, or in US society.

 

The point to my post was, just because you've had an affair you are not an immoral person. Judge not lest ye be judged.

 

No one has a right to judge another morals without looking at themselves first.

 

I personally feel that affairs are wrong...PERIOD. But not because of morality. It's not for me or anyone else to judge someones morals. Affairs are wrong because they hurt everyone involved.

 

The OW/OM come to LS for support. I would like those who post to the OW/OM boards to think before they write. There is such backlash at the OW/OM.

 

There is so much hatred on here which I have seen and experienced. I've seen enough strong-arming on this forum from many BS, frequent posters, and guest which does nothing to help the original poster; in fact it makes them feel worse about themselves to the point they feel there is no help to get them out of the affair. What's more amazing is how the orignally poster never defends...why is that? Because the affair is already ripping them to pieces and then can agree or ignore what is negatively posted.

 

I'm not saying to coddle someone either for being in an affair. The OW/OM is not wanting to be coddled...they are wanting guidence and constructive thought to remove them from a bad situation.