Borderline Personity Disorder

[RecordProducer]

Purely by the only thing tangible: The behavior.

 

And you can't fake behavior. Behavior is what you do. For example, if I hold the door for you to go through first, am I; Being a gentleman? Wanting a look at your behind? Trying to make you think I'm "nice" to improve my chances of getting in your pants? or something else? You have no clue. All you know is the behavior. Even if I tell you why, can you be sure I'm telling the truth?

 

And a neat thing about behavior: If someone modifys their behavior (or are forced to modify their behavior) their attitudes will often adjust to fit the new behavior.

You may want me to think that you have good manners and hold the door for me, while beating your wife at home. How is this not fake?

 

There ARE times when behavior is more important than our true feelings; e.g if you want to smack someone, but you stay calm or you want to F someone, but you remain faithful or you want to go hom,e cuz the person you're with is bugging you, but you choose to stay with them, because

they feel lonely.

 

When I used to drink, my behavior was controlled on the inside - by alcohol. I couldn't drink AND act nicely at the same time. So I quit drinking and my behavior changed. Unfortunately we can't change everything about our behavior by removing our faults on the inside or simply correcting our external representation.

 

I wish I were better organized and more hard-working. This takes a little discipline and motivation. I can force myself to do some things, but I wish I could change it on the inside - find motivation and discipline inside me.

 

It's our inner qualities that are in charge of us. They are above our behavior. Our actions are just a consequence of what we represent or want to represent on the inside. A jerk that insults you wants to be a jerk, because he has a center in the brain for being a jerk , that he was born with or was altered at some point in his life.

 

And a neat thing about behavior: If someone modifys their behavior (or are forced to modify their behavior) their attitudes will often adjust to fit the new behavior.

Yeah, I love the "fake it 'till you make it!" system.

[stoopid_guy]

You may want me to think that you have good manners and hold the door for me, while beating your wife at home. How is this not fake?

 

If you simply look at the behavior, eg. holding the door, it's never fake. If you try to interpret personality and/or attitudes from the behavior, you could be very wrong. (Especially if you tried to do it from one or two behaviors.) That's why I choose to only look at behaviors and not worry about motivations.

 

As a matter of fact, I've made a few folks angry by pointing out when their actions and words contradict. A manager says "get it done at any cost," then balks when I show them an estimate.

 

There ARE times when behavior is more important than our true feelings; e.g if you want to smack someone, but you stay calm or you want to F someone, but you remain faithful or you want to go hom,e cuz the person you're with is bugging you, but you choose to stay with them, because they feel lonely.

But in these cases, your true feelings do win. Part of you might want to smack the person, but a stronger part of you wants peace. Part of you wants to F someone, but a stronger part of you doesn't. Every one has internal conflicts, it's how we deal with those conflicts and the resulting behavior that matters though.

 

When I used to drink, my behavior was controlled on the inside - by alcohol. I couldn't drink AND act nicely at the same time. So I quit drinking and my behavior changed. Unfortunately we can't change everything about our behavior by removing our faults on the inside or simply correcting our external representation.

 

I wish I were better organized and more hard-working. This takes a little discipline and motivation. I can force myself to do some things, but I wish I could change it on the inside - find motivation and discipline inside me.

 

It's our inner qualities that are in charge of us. They are above our behavior. Our actions are just a consequence of what we represent or want to represent on the inside. A jerk that insults you wants to be a jerk, because he has a center in the brain for being a jerk , that he was born with or was altered at some point in his life.

 

Your inner qualities are in charge of you, but it's only the action/behavior that results from those feelings that should matter to the rest of the world. If you're consistantly nice to me, I won't know/care if inside you want to poke my eyes out.

 

Yeah, I love the "fake it 'till you make it!" system.

Search and read up on "cognitive dissonance." Fascinating topic related to internal conflict, attitude, and behavior.

[RecordProducer]

But in these cases, your true feelings do win. Part of you might want to smack the person, but a stronger part of you wants peace. Part of you wants to F someone, but a stronger part of you doesn't. Every one has internal conflicts, it's how we deal with those conflicts and the resulting behavior that matters though.

Exactly! Very well put. So your feelings control your actions. That's the part that people with disorders don't possess - anything to control their actions properly. Their inner selves tell them that what they do is right.

 

If I want to poke your eyes out but pretend to be sweet to you because I have some interest in it, I don't think my behavior would be considered "proper." In that case another negative feature would control my actions.

[stoopid_guy]

Exactly! Very well put. So your feelings control your actions. That's the part that people with disorders don't possess - anything to control their actions properly. Their inner selves tell them that what they do is right.

"Right" and "wrong" are frequently defined by society, and are learned as much as felt. Why don't Americans eat dogs? Because society has told us we shouldn't. Is a person with a personality disorder incapable of learning?

If I want to poke your eyes out but pretend to be sweet to you because I have some interest in it, I don't think my behavior would be considered "proper." In that case another negative feature would control my actions.

But if you poke my eyes out, I probably wouldn't care why. The end result is the same, and unless you do it in self-defense or by accident nothing else matters, or should matter to society.

 

And if you're convincingly sweet to me because you want to get close enough to poke my eyes out, but don't do it after all, my end perception is the same; "RP is a sweet lady."

 

I wonder how often "personality disorders" are just an excuse. For example, I smoke. Every hour or so I make a conscious decision to take out a cigarette and light it. Maybe I have an oral fixation? Maybe I have an addictive personality? Maybe the tobacco companies have brain-washed me? The fact is though that I simply like doing it. If I said I did it because of an addictive personality or because of brain-washing, that would not be assuming responsibility for my actions. Would it change the result? No. I'd still be spending the money, still be taking the risks, and still bear the responsibility for the ultimate results.

[RecordProducer]

Stoopid Guy, I like taking everything to the philosophical level, but if you talk about mental disorders, it's very cruel to say that these people are using their illness as an excuse. It's not only untrue but also implies that they are doing something on purpose. I know very few people with disorders, but have heard a lot about them from their closest ones. Even when they know what's happening to them, they simply can't control it.

 

About behavior... yes, this world would be a better place if the criminals, terrorists, and other attackers "behaved" regardless of their feelings. But it's utopia. Unfortunately, we don't go much further from our feelings.

[Mollyanna]

the honest truth is, there is an element of compulsive behavior for many of these people. They are quite honestly not in control of themselves like everyone else is. They deal with a lot of weird emotional surges and have no concrete concept of self. They feel empty and lack the ability to monitor their own emotions and cannot distinguish between things they feel personally and feelings that are elicited by external stimuli.

 

In my opinion no form of mental illness is ever an excuse to behave badly. It's just the sad consequences of the mental illness.

 

Borderline personality disorder is one of the most difficult mental illnesses to treat and it very often takes many years of both out patient AND inpatient intervention to help these people. This is actually true of almost all the personality disorders, because personality refers all the traits, behavior styles, and patterns that make up our character or individuality - how we perceive the world, our attitudes, thoughts, and feelings are all part of our personality. People with healthy personalities are able to cope with normal stresses, people with personality disorders cannot. For whatever reason.

 

Because your personality is so very fundamental in the way that you approach others and understand the world, those with personality disorders face a lot of difficulties. Some respond well, with courage and honesty. Others do not and end up hurting those around them, or worse, hurting themselves.

 

This is no reason to hate, but it is a reason to pity.

thank you for writing that. So many people misunderstand BPD. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Yes, I do act crazy sometimes but I am in no means satanic or even evil. In fact it is almost the opposite. I want everything to go so perfect that even when I do hurt someone's feelings, I run back to them MOMENTS later apologizing for what I have said or done. For more info about BPD, read the book "I hate you, Don't leave me"

[blind_otter]

That's impossible. Have you ever seen someone in a raging psychotic manic episode or in a deep clincally depressive phase where they stay in bed for 2 months and lose 35 lbs?? There is NO denying that.

 

Thisis why a person is deemed "mentally ill" -- because they cannot determine what is abnormal and what isn't. Their mind is so taken upwith coping with their issues that they have no ability to process anything else.

 

Personalities, maybe not. Behaviors, very much yes. Most people can control their behaviors. And it's only our behavior that's apparent to the outside world, so...

 

Those who are mentally ill cannot. That's the whole point, and that is why they need treatment.But a lot of people have the attitude that you do because mental illness is so poorly understood by our society.

 

Is a person with a personality disorder incapable of learning?

 

They are capable of learning, but not on their own. They need intensive guidance to deprogram what has alreadybeen well established in their head (this can take many, many years and is an excruciating process. I was part of the treatment team at a forensic mental hospital for one young man who had been institutionalized for over 10 years to treat his borderline personality disorder).

 

I wonder how often "personality disorders" are just an excuse. For example, I smoke. Every hour or so I make a conscious decision to take out a cigarette and light it. Maybe I have an oral fixation? Maybe I have an addictive personality? Maybe the tobacco companies have brain-washed me? The fact is though that I simply like doing it. If I said I did it because of an addictive personality or because of brain-washing, that would not be assuming responsibility for my actions. Would it change the result? No. I'd still be spending the money, still be taking the risks, and still bear the responsibility for the ultimate results.

 

But smoking is not associated in any way with the personality of the user. So your example is fallacious and just plain bad logic. It displays a very shallow examination of the real pain that true mental illness, ESPECIALLY all the personality disorders, can create in the sufferer.

 

If you have ever worked with the severelly mentally ill you would realize how absurd your statements are, stoopid guy. The very reason that I chose to NOT persue a career treating the severelly mentally ill was because it was too emotionally wrenching for me to see these indivduals who had, for all intents and purposes, the worst luck of the draw. Horrific childhoods, a series of traumatic events, mothers who did anything from sexually abuse their own children, expose their children to their own prostitution, or physically abuse or force theirchidlren to use drugs.

 

These individuals lack what you take for granted -- a sense of who they are. Fundamentally. An inability to distinguish reality from their own random thoughts. An inability to cope with the normal stressors of every day life. Their personality is splintered into a million pieces and every day is the most excruciating effort to try to put themselves back together in some way that makes sense. And they cannot do that, without guidance from someone else.

 

How sad is that? Have you no compassion? No ability to extend your comprehension of how life is to those other than yourself?

 

thank you for writing that. So many people misunderstand BPD.

 

I have compassion for you. I hope that you will be able to conquer your demons.

[riobikini]

Awesome info from Blind_Otter!

 

-Rio

[RecordProducer]

There you go! Blind Otter said it so well. Expecting from a mentally ill person to "behave" is the same as asking a person with no legs "Can't you just get up and walk like everyone else"?

 

Oh, but you CAN see that they have no legs... and you can't see that one has a mental disorder!

[stoopid_guy]

Stoopid Guy, I like taking everything to the philosophical level, but if you talk about mental disorders, it's very cruel to say that these people are using their illness as an excuse. It's not only untrue but also implies that they are doing something on purpose. I know very few people with disorders, but have heard a lot about them from their closest ones. Even when they know what's happening to them, they simply can't control it.

I didn't mean to say people with disorders were using their problems as an excuse (my apologies to anyone who interpreted it that way,) and I fully appreciate that there are people with real problems.

 

What I was trying to say is that since we can only see outward behaviors and not what's actually going on in a person's mind, it's possible for some to claim to have genuine problems when they don't. If someone molests a child, they (or their lawyer) might claim they did it because they had "problems." Personally, I don't care why they did it. They should (IMHO) be castrated and fed to pigs.

[blind_otter]

If someone molests a child, they (or their lawyer) might claim they did it because they had "problems." Personally, I don't care why they did it. They should (IMHO) be castrated and fed to pigs.

 

This is the lack of compassion that I was talking about. Even I, who was molested as a young girl, can be compassionate for these men.

 

They need treatment. They are suffering. They believe that their misguided actions will lead to some relief of their suffering, or perhaps lack the ability to even process that there is a different way to approach life.

 

To live your life under the burden of compulsion is a terrible thing. These people are in hell. To hurt or kill them would only confirm their belief that they are in hell. And I would rather the man who molested me when I was young -- I would rather that he get help and be healed, I do not wish him dead.

[RecordProducer]

I didn't mean to say people with disorders were using their problems as an excuse (my apologies to anyone who interpreted it that way,) and I fully appreciate that there are people with real problems.

 

What I was trying to say is that since we can only see outward behaviors and not what's actually going on in a person's mind, it's possible for some to claim to have genuine problems when they don't. If someone molests a child, they (or their lawyer) might claim they did it because they had "problems." Personally, I don't care why they did it. They should (IMHO) be castrated and fed to pigs.

Oh, I see. You are right, I agree.

 

This is the lack of compassion that I was talking about. Even I, who was molested as a young girl, can be compassionate for these men.

 

They need treatment. They are suffering. They believe that their misguided actions will lead to some relief of their suffering, or perhaps lack the ability to even process that there is a different way to approach life.

 

To live your life under the burden of compulsion is a terrible thing. These people are in hell. To hurt or kill them would only confirm their belief that they are in hell. And I would rather the man who molested me when I was young -- I would rather that he get help and be healed, I do not wish him dead.

:sick: I knew my molestor for many years... he's a piece of sh*t in every aspect. He is an evil man. He deserves every volte of an electrical chair, but he is free. Actualy he got beaten up severely several years ago, it was something about money in the country where he lives now, but I was so glad. Too bad he didn't die. He had a surgery on his head.

 

Only a dead molestor can have a compassion from me... "Thank you Lord for saving us from your son, we'll pray for him... in hope that this isn't just a dream..."

[britchick]

This is the lack of compassion that I was talking about. Even I, who was molested as a young girl, can be compassionate for these men.

 

They need treatment. They are suffering. They believe that their misguided actions will lead to some relief of their suffering, or perhaps lack the ability to even process that there is a different way to approach life.

 

To live your life under the burden of compulsion is a terrible thing. These people are in hell. To hurt or kill them would only confirm their belief that they are in hell. And I would rather the man who molested me when I was young -- I would rather that he get help and be healed, I do not wish him dead.

 

I agree with you BO, same thing happened to me at 8 years old. I have on occassion worked with men like this. Seeing their self hatred helped me come to terms with what happened.

[riobikini]

All,

 

I guess in terms of viewing pedophiles I have, at least, three positions I have to pay respect to: one in any scenario where my children (or anyone's) might be ever concerned; one in which I am compelled to acknowledge all I have learned about pedophile behavior and state of mind; and still another position that is more general and represents how I normally feel and think about the subject of pedophiles when I am not personally affected or confronted with it.

 

It's a subject that, if you think about it more than just superficially -or in passing, as a momentary onlooker- it can stir a lot of emotions that can elcit angry, unthought-out comments from just about anyone.

 

And no wonder, -aren't the small, young, vulverable, and innocent supposed to be protected?

 

I have my own personal experiences with molestors, and although I don't exactly feel compassion for who they are now, I can look into some of their backgrounds and see why they may have become the abusive, angry, emotionally disturbed person they are presently.

 

Over the years, in talking with others, it astounds me the number of women who have experienced an encounter with a molester (as a child).

 

Overwhelming.

 

And what is more shocking (though I understand why, from a similar personal standpoint) is that most of these encounters were never reported at the time they happened.

 

Times have changed -our tolerance level for child abuse of any kind has changed- and that has opened doors for more people to come forward and begin coping with the hidden secrets of their past.

 

It also revealed some surprising pedolphiles.

 

Pedophilia does not choose a class. It crosses all boundaries of lifestyle of both the abuser and the abused.

 

As in my own personal experience, I kept my secret and told no one. Just thirty years ago there was no one to tell. And plenty of fear even in the isolated consideration of someone to tell it to.

 

I'm glad things are different now -I realize we have miles to go with this in terms of healing and methods of coping for the abused, and dealing with many aspects of the issues of study, treatment, punishment involving the abuser- but I think we've come a long way, obviously, because 20-30 years ago almost no one was willing to discuss the subject.

 

And certainly not as openly as in this forum (one very good example of a positive contribution of the internet).

 

Bravo! -and I wish healing and happiness to all of you.

 

Take Care.

 

-Rio

[blind_otter]

I think we've come a long way, obviously, because 20-30 years ago almost no one was willing to discuss the subject.

 

This, I think, is the key to helping the people who suffer in any way, related any kind of mental illness. An open discussion of the risk factors, the consequences, the actual occurances.

 

The same is true for most mental illnesses, I think. Schizophrenia comes to mind. It was very poorly understood for many years, even though mental health professionals made attempts to treat this issue. In the far past, the mentally ill were victimized in what I believe were terribly tragic ways. They were put on display for other people to jeer at, or had portions of their brains removed. They were submerged in ice baths until they lost consciousness, or endured horrific electroshock therapy. They were forced to vomit or bled nearly to unconsciousness to "expel" the insanity.

 

They were kept in conditions similar to the worst type of third world prison in cement cells, shackled to the wall. All because their minds were broken, through no fault of their own, just a sad draw of genetic and environmental bad luck.

 

We really have come a long way. I'm proud of that, of the evolution of society's awareness and the general increase in compassionate treatment.