jonesgirly Posted September 2, 2006 Posted September 2, 2006 Yeah, its me again, whining about my pathetic married life. WHY in the hell can't I just pick up and move on? You ALL were right - he was gaslighting me, lying, hiding, etc....all the typical crap that WS's do...and still I held out hope that he wasn't the 'typical' idiot. After obtaining all the emails he SENT to 'her', its obvious his heart hasn't been IN this marriage for a LONG time. He wrote: "I told you a long time ago I would not tell you how I feel about you.". Which is basically saying "I want you so bad I'd sell my soul to have it." right? He just loves to be the "victim" in every situation. Poor, poor, me - I'm so lame, and nobody understands, but I guess I 'deserve' it. A couple of nights ago, he spent his evening with me, listening to me "vent" (or express - which I haven't been allowed to). It was the VERY FIRST TIME that he did NOT become defensive during a conversation. I told him that I was super-pissed that he lied to his girlfriend about ME! He told her that "I" told his son about the situation we're in (explaining why I live downstairs). But in reality, it was HIM.....and FOR THE RECORD: I would never, ever, include his SON in the group of "people who NEED TO KNOW the details" of this mess. Never, ever. Kids should NOT be informed of every "adult" situation that their parents/step-parents are facing. I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO pissed that he tried to make ME look like the 'bad guy.' He's avoided me ever since. NOW.....if he had been 'genuine' in his remorsefullness, or actually was TRYING to fix all this, I doubt that he would be running like a girl away from me. It would've been refreshing if he had actually THOUGHT about anything I said that night, and realized it truly was HIM that brought all of this crap to our marriage. I had even wanted to express my appreciation for the evening too - he just never showed up for long enough for me to say it! And whats really sad is what my daughter said to me last night: "My boyfriend would never allow me to be upset for a YEAR without doing something about it." BUT....she doesn't have to deal with this kind of dickwad either! Last night, I went upstairs (his part of the house), and noticed a bright light coming from the office. I asked him "Do you have two computers?". He said "no, its my laptop and I need to update it and change the batteries." Now, I'm not a freakin idiot...... He's probably freaked that I obtained copies of his emails to his 'g/f' and is now going deeper underground. I'm sure he calls her from his work phone instead of his cellphone. I'm sure he emails to her WORK email address now. Because he is SOOOOO self-absorbed, he cannot figure out that it is his actions than make him so untrustworthy. And I can't figure out for the life of me how BIG his balls must be to have tried to make ME believe that he WAS being 'open and honest', while he was lying through his teeth to me. Why in the HELL did he continue to lie? I know - because he could. I cannot seem to convey the message that honesty is the ONLY way to live. Or maybe its just that he's so used to lying, there is no honesty any more. He seems to be unable to 'do' anything about this situation. He states over and over that "I" have the control here (?), and I continue to tell him that HE is the one with 'control' (for lack of better wording). To make a real commitment to the marriage would require him to be open and honest, and to actually 'appear' to get it. He doesn't get it. Here's a funny - our MC called and left a message for ME last night, wondering how I was doing, etc. HE JUST DOES NOT GET IT. The MC totally understood what the situation is here - she WATCHED him in action and was appalled. She also expressed disappointment with HIM regarding his lack of truthfulness when he saw her as an IC last Fall. Of course, the only thing HE heard during counseling was that "I" needed to deal with my anger. And I think I'm doing just 'fine' with my anger - its directed exactly towards the person who creates it. Yeah, I know anger is actually 'hurt' with its sunday-best outfit on, so there's no need to go there. She also indicated that she understood my anger, frustration, etc. with him. She DIDN'T call HIM to find out how HE was 'coping' with the situation. I'm pissed because he LIED right to my face. I know its 'standard' behavior for WS's, but jesus H. christ, he tried to bully his way into making me believe him~! His messages to his girlfriend included his "attraction" to her, how "I" text messaged her last Fall (remember that part?)", that he KNEW she wouldn't be attending our summer party (even though he denied knowing why she didn't show up), and that he does "miss her" and it was "great to see you." He just doesn't SEE what he's done. Its NOT the EA/PA?, its that he betrayed my trust and did NOTHING to repair it. He didn't 'come clean' with me, nor did he take a look at how he may have destroyed my trust in him. God, what a schuck with an F. His solution? Bury head firmly in sand. Know that "he" couldn't do ANYTHING to get 'us' past this. Lay on couch watching TV every night, just so he doesn't have to face reality. And like LadyJane said to "TheWife" - she knew that her husband MEANT IT when he said that he would do 'anything' to save their marriage is EXACTLY what most BS's need. NOT to hear the words, but to see the feeling behind them, and then to see the subsequent 'actions.' Well, maybe to hear the words, AND have the actions 'match' them. And because he doesn't, I realize that he doesn't think this is worth salvaging. I hate that I'm not more important than that. BUT..I also know that when I am truly 'done' with him it will be too late for anything. I'm very close to that now, and I wish he could see it. Not that I think he would do anything differently, just that he would be able to possibly REALIZE what he's lost and/or done to someone else. What a catch.
veronese Posted September 2, 2006 Posted September 2, 2006 I know how you feel JG. Total toss pots aren't they?! Well I've had the 'separation' chat with him today, scheduled for Jan when hopefully my daughter will be settled in her new boarding school (more pain!) and Christmas is out of the way. His reaction? Same old same old. He's tired of it too (HA!!!!). He's tired of treading on egg shells (REALLY?!). He's fed up with my attitude towards him (i.e. me not ignoring how unreasonable he can be) No fuss, no attempt to change my mind. I knew he didn't want to be here but the wanker is too pathetic to actually leave! He's done very little to repair our marriage in the areas I told him I needed them. Every six months for two and a half years I've mentioned how important they are to me (nothing complex, just being taken out for lunch occassionally, seeing as he managed lunch with one of his girlfriends at least once a week for years! and maybe going out together in the evenings), and that I was surprised he hadn't bothered doing any of them. As time progressed it became embaressing cos he said he'd make more of an effort, then didn't. I stressed how his continued lack of concern would eventually kill our relationship but obviously that didn't bother him either. So bit by bit I detached from him which only made matters worse. I'd held it together for 17 years but after DDay I needed more from him. Knew he wouldn't do it!! Big hugs JG
Author jonesgirly Posted September 2, 2006 Author Posted September 2, 2006 "Toss Pots and Wankers", indeed V. Its frustrating because you know that you basically have two choices: take them as they 'are', or leave. The fact that there is no real effort on their part to improve the situation is frustrating. Its almost as if their arrogance allows them to think "Hey - this is ME - take it or leave it!", without ANY regard for YOUR feelings. You seem to be reaching your breaking point. The contractions are getting closer together. I absolutely, positively, unequivocally understand exactly where you're at. Your expectations weren't 'huge', in fact, seemed rather timid given the wreckage he created within your marriage. Its exasperating to care about people who make NO genuine effort to show they are concerned for the marriage. "HE'S" tired of the situation? Whys that? Because you don't accept less-than what you NEED? Its amazing when people damage a relationship with deceit and betrayal think that their "little" mistake should be just swept under the carpet. Who knows? Maybe when he's faced with the reality of the situation in the form of divorce documents he may 'see the light.' But at that point, you may not want him to. Be well, V.
alphamale Posted September 2, 2006 Posted September 2, 2006 this is terrible JG. I hope things work out OK.
Ladyjane14 Posted September 2, 2006 Posted September 2, 2006 I'm sorry things are apparently going down like this, girls. Veronese and Jonesgirly... you've both put extraordinary effort into trying to work it out. You've read, studied, talked.... I don't know what else you can try at this point. What makes it possible for 'the lightbulb' to click on for some but not for others? :confused: I don't know. The only thing I can equate it to is my own change of heart regarding sexual intimacy, which was such a stale-mate in my marriage at one point. I think there comes a point at which a break-through moment is possible, and if a person can abandon their previous position for long enough to REALLY see the other guy's POV without it being colored by their own perspective... there's hope for change. "Change" can only be brought about by one or the other abandoning their previous view permanently and adopting the other's perspective though. It doesn't sound to me like either one of you has a mate who has been willing to abandon his role as the victim. IOW, you have a man who feels that he is consistantly persecuted and punished for a previous "mistake". So, rather than receiving understanding of your feelings, you're greeted with defensiveness. There's been no Golden Moment, when the lightbulb clicked on for these guys. No moment when they've dropped their own POV for long enought to fully absorb yours. I really wish I knew a way to get a person to make that leap ... but I guess it all boils down to the fact that we can't really "make" anybody else to something they don't choose to do for themselves. It's sad... because the problems really were surmountable if only these guys could have made the choice to see it.
Author jonesgirly Posted September 3, 2006 Author Posted September 3, 2006 And me and V have tried everything we could think of to salvage our relationships. It was a HUGE 'thing' for me to have a trustworthy husband. I had experienced third-degree cheating in the past, and wanted nothing to do with that type of person. To have reconnected with a childhood crush (my husband) after all this time was truly like 'going home' for me. I absolutely felt that this was 'it', and that we would be married forever. He indicated that he felt the same way about me, and that he had always wanted to be 'with' me. I never, ever, thought that he would find someone that he would have such a strong attraction to (apparently physically and emotionally), that he would risk our union for it. Especially after only being married for a couple of years. I didn't have a single jealous or suspicious bone in my body when we were married. And even though he tried to make my reaction to HIS betrayal a result of my PAST betrayals, it was truly unfounded. There was no baggage carried into our relationship regarding infidelity. I just assumed we were NEVER going to have to deal with it! I feel like I tried everything to get something done here. I was angry and emotional and all those other things that people 'are' when they are first supplied with an emotional shocker. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, dropped pounds like crazy (wasn't porky). He ignored me. He became despondant because of (?) whatever - his actions, my reaction, whatever... and threatened to commit suicide. I talked him into returning home and discussed the implications. I made him take the emotional needs questionaire from MB's (he didn't even ask me what mine were). I tried to pretend nothing was wrong (so did he). I tried to provide unlimited and 'on-demand' physical um, accommodations. He liked that one, but I felt like a prostitute. I initiated MC with HIS IC from last Fall after his arrest (um, anger management issues). Learned that he also was untruthful with her, and realized that he probably doesn't have the capacity for honesty. She was far more concerned with my safety and 'communication' issues with him. She recommended a type of therapy (IMAGO) for him to improve his ability to listen. She noted his lack of empathy, narcissitic traits, and inability to 'hear' what I say. She also become frustrated with his OUTWARDLY hostile body language and sarcasm towards me. She confided that she feels he is emotionally abusive towards me. And we lead our seperate lives, day after day. THANK GOD this house has a lower level with an apartment. There is no way I'd be able to stay in the same 'area' with him. I will give him credit here though........he 'appears' to be reading the book I recently bought 'Getting the Love you Want.' Its by the guy who developed the IMAGO therapy model, Harville somebody, and was highly recommended. Somebody posted on LS that their husband had a lightbulb moment after reading it and understood the need for honesty. Yep, I just can't seem to get rid of all 'hope' here can I? So, LJ - what was your change of heart regarding sexual intimacy? And you're right about seeing the other persons POV.....Its all about empathy. In my case, it may be non-existent in my H, but I will leave this marriage knowing that I at least tried to find it in him. I have even tried to empathize with HIM......that was during the delusional time when I thought "hey - maybe they are JUST friends, and I'm wacked. Maybe he's telling me the truth." But my gut just wouldn't let me stay there. And sure enough......lies, all lies. Gaslighting. And I absolutely HATE the way he tried to 'bully' me into believing him. He made statements like: "I'm not lying or hiding anything from you, and if you can't believe that, then its your fault." God, I hate caring about a person who could say that to me, when THEY KNOW THEY'RE LYING AND HIDING THINGS. What a weak person (him). Not even enough testosterone to 'own' his crap. The evening I mentioned earlier (when he appeared to listen to me but I haven't seen him since) - he said that the reason he had a 'change of heart' was because he was 'tired of it being like this.' The more I think about it, I guess it really WASN'T a 'lightbulb' moment for him. It was probably just that he was 'tired of it being like this.' He still doesn't want to talk about all the lies and crap he 'fed' me, just wants things to be different. And thanks for noting the effort we've both (Me and V) have put in to trying to salvage our marriages. I told my H that I had spent hours and hours, reading, researching, thinking about, and talking about this 'mess.' And he hasn't even read ONE SINGLE book that his counselor recommended. I recommended long ago that he at least 'read', if not participate, in another website group that has a section for 'wayward spouses' (SI). He didn't. But damn, he'll spend freaking hours online knowing all about Mars/NASA, and on a ton of right-wing political spots. He has an intense need to know 'everything' about 'everything', so that he appears very knowledgable. And he IS very intelligent (intellectually), but extremely stunted in the emotional department. Jonesgirly continues to beat head against wall.
Ladyjane14 Posted September 3, 2006 Posted September 3, 2006 So, LJ - what was your change of heart regarding sexual intimacy? Oh, I don't want to take your thread too far off topic, but in a nutshell.... I had stood solidly on my own POV for many years that if a man wanted regular sex from his wife, he ought to put in a little EFFORT toward getting it. You know, small things... like NOT being a gigantic A*HOLE all the time. But... then one day while we were discussing DIVORCE , I had a lightbulb moment and finally recognized it as an EN, which when left unfulfilled had diminished his sense of self-worth. In short, I was the one who was WRONG because I was the one inflicting the most damage.
Author jonesgirly Posted September 3, 2006 Author Posted September 3, 2006 I see. And I actually DID learn this from reading the "his needs, her needs" stuff. It wasn't that I ever didn't want 'physical' expression, I just didn't realize how important it was to men. They equate the 'giving' (physically) as tangible evidence of true love. Fair enough, hence the weeks I spent letting him know he could 'have' me whenever he wanted. And with US, sex was never an issue. The only issue "I" ever had was that he wasn't uninhibited enough. I was comfortble with him sexually because I trusted him. He has issues initiating things, and states that its because of his childhood abuse. He doesn't want to ever feel like he has 'forced' me to do something. I have those 'good little catholic girl' issues of not being the one to initiate. I've always believed that testosterone trumps estrogen any day, so assumed that he would initiate sex whenever he felt like it. I've even offered to be his 'sex-slave'!! He remains very sexually 'controlled' and I doubt that this will ever change. I agree with you that a husband being a "giant A-Hole most of the time" will NOT get him an enthusiastic bedroom partner. I must commend you on having the insight to realize how the physical aspect of your relationship, to HIM, was very much important. Its tough though, to be able to focus on another persons EN when they are being such a wad. Again, I can honestly say I did try to meet this need for my H. Its even gotten to the point where I went upstairs (to his living quarters) and told him that I could "go find someone else if he didn't want to have sex with me." Of course he followed me back to my apt (downstairs), but it really only served to highlight the fact that he is SOOOO out-of-touch with me that "I" would actually have to say such a thing. Wankers they are, as Veronese says (I love that word)
Mz. Pixie Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 You know, I actually think that he does "get it". He can't possibly be that daft and be married to a super chick like you. However, he is so intent on keeping up his charade- he just is NEVER going to tell the truth. And, he really doesn't care enough to make an effort.
Author jonesgirly Posted September 5, 2006 Author Posted September 5, 2006 he just is NEVER going to tell the truth. And, he really doesn't care enough to make an effort. Sadly, I've recently come to this conclusion myself. He never did come back 'over' to my place after the one evening last week that he allowed (for the first time), me to 'vent' without getting defensive and mean. Great Holiday weekend, spent doing NOTHING! I'm not married, I'm not single, I guess I live in limbo-land. I did initiate a conversation late yesterday afternoon, but I'm really kind of tired of being the one to start dialogue. And I can see it in his eyes - he's just not that interested (in me) anymore. He states that he's "tired of this", and I reply "so am I." I think he knows that it was his job to rebuild my trust, but he doesn't care enough to actually attempt to do it for more than 10 minutes. It bothers me a great deal that he spent so much time insisting that he was being "honest" and it was ME who had the problem of not "being able to believe him." He would say things like "you'll never get over this." All the while, he was lying and hiding things. I'm just plain old sad because I know that he's just not gonna snap out of it. I even told him last night that if he thinks he can "do better", than by all means "go for it." I'm tired of living with such a disrespectful and dishonest person. I'm also aware that because he has no respect for me (probably because I put up with all this crap for so long), he probably never will. I'm pretty sure that if you've lost respect for someone, its not something that can be regenerated. So no matter how long I wait, or how much I wish for a different ending, without respect within the marriage, there really is no relationship to salvage.
justice Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 I feel what you are writing. My H gaslighted me too and it hurt worse than the actual affair. Even when I showed him copies of the cell bill and as of late the copies of their emails which had me looking worse than the wicked witch in Oz, he still denied. Until I started showing him I meant business and started carrying my belongings out to the car. This wasn't that awful long ago either. Their A has ended. That wasn't what was bothering me it was his deny, deny, deny tactics. The denying and lying thing was what was between us that I could not get over. Finally he came to his senses and took responsibility for EVERYTHING that he had done and came clean about everything. Then and only then did I know he really wanted me and was willing to work on us instead of working on new tactics for denying and lying. Hon, I really hope things get better for you one way or another, I hate to see you in such turmoil because I know how it feels, my thoughts and hugs are with you.
Mz. Pixie Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 It bothers me a great deal that he spent so much time insisting that he was being "honest" and it was ME who had the problem of not "being able to believe him." He would say things like "you'll never get over this." See, what you're not thinking about though is that they ALL lie. They all do things like that- it's not unique to just him. He's hedging his options by keeping you in limbo. Working his way up to getting someone he considers better. Right now he's content to live in limbo until that happens, then he will eventually file for divorce. Do you see what I'm saying??
Author jonesgirly Posted September 5, 2006 Author Posted September 5, 2006 Mz.P.....yep, I realized his lack of 'specialness' about a month ago when I realized that he'd been lying for pretty much the whole year. That moment sucked BIG TIME. I just didn't expect it. Logically, I should have, but emotionally I just didn't want to believe he was as lame as all the others. Thats been a tough thing for me to accept. You'd think I'd have lost some of the naive-ness by now. But noooooo.... I get so pissed sometimes, just for thinking that he wouldn't do such a creepy thing to me. Yesterday, he insisted that he does NOT want us to get divorced. But of course, he doesn't really want to DO anything to prevent it either. I think he'd like for me to handle a 'divorce' so that he can say he "didn't want it." There are so many 'little things' that are now starting to show how he's really just forgotten about our marriage. He got a new cellphone last week, and didn't put my name or number in it. He rearranged our "office" and moved his desk into where mine was (I have my computer junk downstairs in the apt now). He hasn't read more than maybe a quarter of either of the books he was given (After the Afffair and Getting the Love You Want). There's just NOT a lotta anything being put forth by him. Its sad to watch, and its sad to live, but I guess it will help me in the long-run to realize that its over. I just wish he had not turned out to be like all the other idiots I've known. Geez...there's no reason to betray the trust of someone you supposedly care for. justice......I agree - the gaslighting hurts even more. I guess maybe because when they were 'having fun' they didn't SAY right to our faces "I'm NOT having fun." When they choose to answer our questions with LIES, it became so much more deliberate and deceitful. I wish I had one of those husbands that realized the value of his wife, and made sure SHE realized how he felt. Those are the good-guys who didn't continue the betrayal of trust. Those are the guys that read the books, that didn't have to take a zanax in order to NOT become defensive and angry in conversations with their betrayed spouses.
Roo Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 JG, Firstly ((((((HUGS HUGS AND MORE HUGS))))) Sounds like pixie hit the nail on the head, I'll not repeat what you clearly already know even in your own heart, but I'll wish you a speedy journey to the place in your own heart where you can move on and leave the toad behind in a search for a real prince. You deserve FAR better, perhaps next time instead of kissing frogs hoping they'll become a prince, just wait for the prince... (((HUGS))) he's a real Choad!
Mz. Pixie Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 He got a new cell phone??? Were yours on the same bill?? He is still up to his old tricks- he is just getting sneakier. How much more analyzing of why he's a **** are you going to do??
Author jonesgirly Posted September 5, 2006 Author Posted September 5, 2006 :lmao: Ms.P....I swear, bear with me, not too much longer........ :lmao: The cellphone thing was not as sneaky as it seems. It was actually his sons new Razor phone that I ABSOLUTELY LOVED (and my H KNEW IT). He (the boy) had left it when he fled to Florida (long story) a month ago. SOOOO............my H decided to transfer his number to the new razor phone. And thats all fine and dandy (for him), its just that everything he does is for "him." He knows he's a selfish person, and now we BOTH know just how selfish he really is. He always has to have the latest and greatest toys, regardless of whether or not he can afford them (remember after DDAY#1 last summer when he promptly went out and bought a handheld PC/IPAQ ?). He never thinks about how his actions might 'look' to another person (me). Basically, because he doesn't care. Duh. I am NOT a materialistic person AT ALL. I enjoy nice things (well-made clothes, doritos, wine-in-a-box), but rarely am I purchasing something for myself. I don't wear a lot of jewelry, cut my own hair (its very long and basically one length), and don't have expensive 'taste.' I guess I'm starting to really see him for what he really is. All the quirky (aka "high maintenance") things that he does are now just pretty much self-centeredness. I just wished that he could've pulled his head out of his arse a year ago. He said to me last night "I don't know what to do." OH MY FREAKING GOD IN HEAVEN.............How dumb does he think I am? He could've figured it out in a nano-second if he had wanted to. Lets see, hmm...how about googling "rebuilding trust for dummies." Its my own stupid fault too... I should've left last year after his "entanglement" was unearthed. Maybe he would have respected me. I just so hoped to get one of the good guys. I so wanted to believe that I really was important to him, well at least important enough to want to "keep." Thats what I want - a Husband that knows I'm a keeper and values our relationship enough to not destroy it with stupidity! Thanks Roo, for your compassion. I AM moving towards the road, and thats probably what is making everything seem so 'clear' to me now. It saddens me a great deal, but I realize I've got no control or influence over his decisions. I do feel like I deserve better, and hope someday to find it.
Mz. Pixie Posted September 5, 2006 Posted September 5, 2006 See, that's me, I'm not materialistic. My first husband was, however. Of course, only about HIS things he wanted- which mostly revolved around his hobbies. I think it's very female to put others before we put ourselves. Men are not wired that way and we are by nature. I'm not saying that he has an excuse to be a jerk, because he doesn't because men can learn to put their spouses and children above themselves. I've seen it done. My husband now is not selfish. He always wants me to have nice things. Which is nice. His tastes are a little more expensive than mine- but I've never had things like that so I couldn't care less about them. I had to chuckle with the "wine in a box comment" Really though, think about it JG. I think you're waiting on him to have this moment where he comes to his senses and says "Oh my gosh!" and starts to fix things. But you've been dragging through this quite a while now and it comes to a point where you have to just make a decision. Stay and deal with it- or cut and go. As my grandmother used to say "Want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up faster" Which I interpret to mean in this situation that you can pick this apart all you want to- but you're never going to get the understanding you're looking for. Because he's just a jerk who is never going to work on the marriage the way you need him to. All he cares about is himself. Period. We women can dig into a situation and pull it apart and examine it every which way and yeah, we do that but in essence it's very simple in this situation- you'll never understand it- because you don't think like he does. He's a full blown narcassist. See, my mother was one- and I can wrap my head around how they work. Because I've lived it. For most people it's unbelievable how they act and there is a tendency to try and think the person will reform. But they just won't. It's ingrained into their personality- it's part of WHO they are. I mean a rational caring mother would never tell her child that her stepfather had the right to try to get her to have sex with him because he paid her private school tuition, right?? But my mother certainly did. I could sit and analyze it all day long if I wanted to- and wonder what happened to her that made her like she was and why she couldn't see it and what I did to deserve it but in the end I don't really give a shxt what made her do it. She did it, she was wrong- and in the end, I'm the only one in control of my life. You need to get away from this creep and start focusing on yourself. I'm fearful that he will indeed attempt to wake up now (it's called hoovering) and then lure you back in with promises of reforming. That's what they do. Then WHAM they will hit you with something worse than they did before and the cycle starts all over again. His words can say whatever they want. You can't listen to him or believe him. Because in the end he only cares for himself. He feigns empathy or love as needed because that is what gives him what he wants or needs at the time. It's all acting. They are empty shells void of all emotions except when it suits them.
Author jonesgirly Posted September 5, 2006 Author Posted September 5, 2006 You're grandma sounds like mine ! She always said that she wanted to die "by the hands of a jealous wife". Maybe inappropriate for the comment here, but I always found it humorous, given that she was 82 years old at the time! <wine-in-a-box fits in the refrigerator better> <jonesgirly would never serve it to guests though> I know I've been loitering around waiting for the impossible - for him to actually 'get it.' I know its not going to happen. I'm a LOT less emotional now in our 'conversations' and have repeatedly told him that he cannot 'tell' me anything - his words and actions HAVE to match in order for any progress to be made. Of course, he doesn't understand/care. <jonesgirly enters depressed/self-pity mode> It just sucks. Why did "I" have to fall for all his cow-pies? He KNEW I'd had enough life tragedies, he LIVED with me through some of them! What a thoughtless person. All this and we've been married 4 whole years! (I guess I should be thankful I didn't waste 40!). Ms.P..your mother...yeck... I'm impressed that you survived and seem to be well-adjusted and happy. Step-fathers like that should be strung up by the nads. My daughter survived her step-fathers' (my husband) sexual abuse, but I'm not sure "I" will ever be the same. I cannot imagine being a mother who would actual condone or try to coerce their daughter into such activity. Sickens me is an understatement. I like your posts because you've got my husband 'pegged' and reinforce what my gut keeps telling me. I will be out of this mess. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, and none of his words mean a damn thing. And its not so much the betrayal of his involvement with another person, its the betrayal to 'us' when he continued to sacrifice 'me' for 'her/him' while telling me he wasn't lying or hiding things. <insert 'how do you do that to another person?' then realize you already know the answer >
CarryingOn123 Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 Hi Jonesgirly, I am really sorry to hear that your husband sexually abused your daughter. In that case I wonder why it is still a dilema for you to make a clean cut. I think you have to get him arrested if you can (if that is what your daughter would like to do). I've had 2 cousin sisters who were sexually abused by an uncle. The elder one kept quiet about it (she was 8-2 at the time). Later on, much later on when she told us, I am ashamed to say that I did not believe her (i didnt say it out, but in my mind I did not believe her). This was because she used to make up(exagerate) stuff about me when we were small, stuff like if I bumped into her accidently she used to start crying and tell everyone that I hit her- to get me into trouble. It was only when the secong girl experienced the same thing did I believe it. It is the most humiliating thing for a girl, they feel used. I think you should focus more on your daughter than waste time with this scum
Author jonesgirly Posted September 6, 2006 Author Posted September 6, 2006 CO123........so sorry for the confusion - I should've said my EX-husband (a lot of the vets here know that story and I just failed to make that clear). There would be NO WAY I'd stay married to a man who sexually abused my daughter. My EX-husband was truly a predator/pedophile when it came to my daughter. He brainwashed her in so many ways (including telling her that he was waiting for her to turn 18 because he wanted to be 'with' her instead of me). As far as I can determine the sexual abuse began when she was in Kindergarten (age 5) through about age 13 - the normal 'course' that pedophiles use, ending when their victims reach puberty. This man truly gives me the creeps, and to this day, I still refer to him as the 'creature.' He is getting married next weekend, to a 25 year old (he is 47)! I believed my daughter from the beginning, and assisted her through the proper channels for this 'type' of thing. If it had been MY choice, he would've been jailed for the rest of his life. But my daughter was not strong enough (at the time, and even now for that matter), to wage war with him. The country prosecutor even told me that "he" probably would've been sent to jail based solely on my daughters testimony, but she was not really strong enough to go through it. I chose to support my daughter (she was at least 16 by this time) in whatever route she picked. She wanted to get 'on with' her life. She ended up being hospitalized TWICE for psychiatric reasons (suicidal, self-abusive). This was not a fun time for me, but I remained strong for my daughter. To this day she will tell you that she appreciates that, and realizes how difficult it must've been for those around her. She has grown into a very well-adjusted 20-year-old, attending the University of Michigan in their very rigorous nursing program. She has trained and volunteered for 'crisis' hotlines, and is volunteering at the sexual assault unit at UofM this term. All in all, I think my maintaining a calm, collected demeanor helped her to deal with things by having an anchor to 'rely' on. I would think any parent would do what is best for their child. My daughter and I are very, very close. Although she lives in Ann Arbor (about 20 mins from me), we talk every day, and she 'pops over' at least three times a week. In fact, I've grown weary of my 'empty nest' always being full of somebody! This is just a bit of the 'saga' my NOW husband has lived through WITH me....just part of the tragedies I've dealt with in his presence. This is sometimes the hardest part for me - he KNEW what kind of 'crap' I've had to handle as the result of the 'men' in my life, and still choose to make his contribution In addition, my daughter has witnessed his crappy treatment of me on many occasions. She cannot understand why I tolerate it, and I'm no longer trying to "defend" or "explain" my husbands behavior. It IS crap! She has even gone so far as to try and find me a place to live closer to her! I am truly disappointed in myself, for allowing the 'example' of myself tolerating my husbands obvious disrespectful behavior. I now know why all of his sons treat women with absolutely NO respect, including their own mother. They are nicer to ME than her - but then again, I treat everyone with respect. Sorry for the confusion there. And sorry for your cousins experience in this realm also. I hope all is well with you.
CarryingOn123 Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 Sorry for the confusion. I am happy your daughter is moving on with life in a good way. Its good that you believed her and chose to support her. I'm sure that it meant a lot to her. you said that you treat everyone wht respect. Wrto this husband- I think you should start treating yourself with more respect
CarryingOn123 Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 oh sorry, Thanks for your wishes, and I am well, as much can be expected.
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 JG, Thank you for sharing your story. I am so tremendously touched by what you are going through with that narcissistic H of yours. Like you, I've been the invisible wife to my H of 10 years. He is so self-involved that he simply could not comprehend what I go through. (He did not cheat on me, though). After months of MC, we are both making progress. One thing that I learned is that men - and perhaps your H, as well - are not gonna be in tune with our words, even if we tell them as things are. They have to feel it. For the past several months, I mirrored his actions back to him. For example, he'd make tea only enough for himself even though I'd be right next to him. So I did just taht back to him... and one day, he caught on. He asked me why I wasn't making tea for him. 'Well,' I explained, 'you aren't making tea for me.' You get the idea. The TRICK is doing it in a light hearted way. Do not show any anger or sarcasm in your tone at all. Make it known to him that he's been doing this to you all the time, and that now, you've decided that must be what he wanted. That said, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on what you should do. If you don't mind my asking, why do you love him so much? Is it the looks? Narcissists tend to look above average because they take care of themselves. Is that good enough for you? You story really touched my heart... (and I have a broken one.) For one thing, it made me realize that my H is trying to work on our M. 6 months ago, I had basically given up on our M...I was not acting myself, and I stop caring. That gave him the lightbulb moment! LOL. Men need that kind of 'shock' to fully come to grips with their situation. If you are doing nothing... then, your H will also do nothing because he still sees nothing. I hope that helps.
veronese Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 Oh JG, we're hopeless aren't we?! I'm surprised anyone's got any patience left for us. But it's so hard to walk away isn't it? Especially when you've loved someone so much and not realised they weren't who you thought they were. Then when our wankers (do you know what that means?) won't leave of their own accord and tell us they don't want a divorce, we get all confused and muddled and wonder if there just might be a glimmer of hope after all? They don't want to walk away though do they? To cheat on us and then dump us wouldn't look good at all, far better they are seen to suffer our wroth for as long as it takes for us to tire of it and give up, then they can say nothing they did was ever going to make us happy and we continue to look like unbalanced, bitter, twisted old bags. It's only remarkable that our men were kind enough to hang around as long as they did! I know my H won't portray a truthful, accurate picture of our situation to others and although I know it shouldn't bother me, it bloody well does! For instance when I told him I wanted a separation last weekend he immediately wanted one too (strange why he hadn't mentioned it before? Oh yeah, forgot he doesn't tell me anything he's thinking!), then guess what he did? He phoned his brother to cancel our plans for the evening and told him it was because we weren't getting on well and were basically unhappy with each other and were talking about splitting up. Did he mention that I was the one who wanted this? My decision, not his? Of course he bloody didn't, can't look like he's being dumped can he? When I asked (a few times naturally as he never gives me direct answers to a question) why he'd overlooked this minor detail when talking to his brother, he asked me "why does it matter?" I told him it mattered only in so far as that was what had happened so why miss it out of the story? "Fine. If it's so bloody important to you I'll tell him then. Will that make you happy?" he snapped back, I told him I didn't care what he told people, I was just curious as to why he couldn't tell the truth. Later on that day, gone was the cold, mean stranger eager to see the back of me, back came the concerned, slightly sorry, "you don't really mean it do you?" man who seemed to want the exact opposite. I've told him, like you, he is free to do whatever he wants to change my mind but we both know that aint gonna happen! Like you JG, I'd made it clear from the start that honesty and fidelity were essential to me in a marriage, he wasn't forced up the sodding aisle, he could have buggered off when he realised he wasn't the type of man I liked! During one particularly distressing period (todo with my parents ill health), I was so worn out and emotionally spent I remember lying in his arms in bed one night talking, and I said "you know if I found out you'd been cheating on me hun, that would completely finish me off." (didn't know he already was, had 3 going on 4 girlfriends, and had been cheating for fcking years!) Another time when we were talking about my friend's cheating husband I remarked on how shocking it was because he hadn't appeared to be the cheating type (oh yea of little brain!). You know what I said? "If you turn out to be a lying cheating bastard too Jude it will be such a shock I know I will never be able to trust another man again. Because if I have got you wrong Jude after this long how can I ever trust again?" Of course when I was saying that to him I was only talking hypothetically, just sort of making conversation in relation to my friend's wanky husband. I didn't actually imagine it possible! The trouble is they are such good liars, the buggers are skilled, gifted experts! Unlike you though JG, I haven't caught my husband out lying about anything other than stuff pre-DDay. My problem is more about his attitude and our relationship generally. And believe me, I've checked up on him loads, and while there's a possibility he's become even smarter and more cunning, I'm sure he will slip up sooner or later if he's involved with another woman. I don't trust him JG. Once the trust has gone it's gone for good. When they lie and cheat on us once, we know they could do it again and probably will knowing what they're like. They talk such bollocks when they do open their mouths it's hard to feel secure. Oh well, another exciting day in veroneseland.... wonder how the third one of us is doing? Sylv? Are you still torturing yourself too? If I were my husband I would leave me! I'm a right pain in the arse at the moment so maybe he's as mad as me for staying?! Love and hugs as ever Veronese xxxx
Mz. Pixie Posted September 6, 2006 Posted September 6, 2006 Oh yeah, she was a real piece of work. She's been dead almost three years and I've never missed her. The only thing I grieved for was the fact that things could have been so good between us if she'd only not had a borderline personality disorder- in her case- narcassistic. I survived, but perhaps I'm not well adjusted?? I've had alot of issues- and been in and out of therapy for the last ten years. In addition to the sexual abuse and her being a narcassist, there was physical, emotional, and verbal abuse for me to endure. I'm sorry about your daughter. I live in terror of someone doing that to my daughter- not my husband- but perhaps a friend or someone at school. She sounds as though she has made it through the maze and gone on to be really happy. She's not married and has no kids?? For me a big flare up was the birth of my first child. It was extremely hard for me to wrap my head around how my mom treated me when I would have killed for my baby. The bottom line is that anyone is capable of cheating- according to research I've read. It only takes the right situation and for a person to be weak enough at that moment. That being said, when you're dealing with a narcassist- they have a constant need to be stroked. Not your fault that you can't do that 24/7. Their entitlement is ridiculous. He can't deny himself anything- I mean why should he??? He's the great and mighty. The best thing you can do with a N is to distance yourself. Because this was my mother that was hard for me. My grandmother raised me and was the best thing that ever happened to me until my kids and my H. She lived with my mom. So ignoring the situation was something I couldn't do because I had to be around for my grandmother. (yeah, she was a hoot- married once and her husband died early and she never remarried or had a boyfriend). So I had to learn how to deal with her. You're in a entirely different situation- you and V- you guys can get out and get away. The way these guys reeled you in is easy. They are great actors. Narcassists are people magnets- because they put on such a great show that they fool you into thinking they are something they are not. They often act out inappropriately sexually. I had friends I'd known all through school that would have never believed my mother would act like I said she did- until they witnessed it themselves or heard her over the phone ranting. They are brilliant actors and actresses. That's the lure. They pull you in with what they think you want them to be. That's right- what they THINK you want them to be. Not who they are. Go back and read that one more time- or ten times- if it takes that for you to understand. There is never going to be a minute that you sit back and say "lightbulb" I have finally figured it out!!!! Because it can't be figured out. They just are what they are. Regardless of the reasons- it doesn't really matter. Bottom line is that they did what they did and they are not deserving of two rocking gals like you!! What are you two afraid of?? Being single?? Because imagine being single and not having to deal with this crap anymore. Unless you have kids together- which will mean limited dealings. You are not getting anything from these men anyway- so what is the difference??
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