Am at a cross-roads, which way do I go?

[veronese]

OK.

 

After I read JG's post recently about her narcisisstic H, I re-read my thread about my H's narcisisstic traits that I posted way back in February.

 

Which led me to do more reading about the disorder, which re-confirmed my suspicions and fears.

 

So I bought a book on the subject, read some more, learned some more, realised more. Mentioned it to his lordship. Knew it was treading on dodgy ground cos my H. resents me mentioning anything I've learned from either books or the internet, Loveshack especially (he hates this site with more passion than I see him display regarding us!)

 

. He always reacts to me in a disdainful, disbelieving manner. Like "So you've been reading this **** on Loveshack/in a book and now you think it applies to me? Are you sure??? Are you really so impressionable as to believe what you read??"

 

I normally avoid the subject. I rarely raise my concerns thesedays. I know I'm wasting my time and need to work it out for myself.

 

BUT, having refreshed my memory about narcisisstic characteristics in loved ones I broached the subject tonight when he asked me what was up with me.

 

I told him I thought he needed counselling to address the issues he had, without which I doubted we could have a hope of ever surviving together as a couple.

 

He said he thought couneilling was a pile of pooh and didn't think could be of any use to us/make any difference to him as a person.

 

So I said that I thought if there was any hope for us as a couple in the future he NEEDED to at least try, for our sake if nothing else.

 

I explained how his lack of emotional response/feeling towards me throughout our relationship but especially during our recent dramas alarmed and confused me, horrified and annoyed me. I told him that I'd been desperate to see some sort of reaction, response, emotion from him every time I'd stood before him and told him that I needed to see a reason from him to show me that he loved me. Time and time and time a-fricking-gain!!! It never happened.

 

Tonight I told him I'd consulted a solicitor with regards the legalities of a separation (which I have actually done now). He was dismissive, indifferent, blase. Could he come back with a counter charge against me?, he asked. Yes, I said, he could, but he'd be silly to go down such an expensive route when I had a good case against him with proof to back it up, and he had basically nothing against me.

 

I told him I loved him and didn't want us to break up but needed more than he had so far offered me. I reminded him of the many times he told me that if I didn't like it I didn't have to take it. That this was what he was offering, was all he would ever offer, and he would never be offering any more than this in thr future. Ya get me???!

 

I said I finally understood the offer. Understood it would never change/improve. Had to accept who he was and how he is or not, it's up to me, my choice, my decision. If I don't like what he's offering, fine.

 

Well, I told him I've considered the offer and I don't accept it. I do want more. I do need more. And if he can't be bothered to make more of an effort to hold on to me, that's fine by me too. His choice, his decision. If he doesn't like my terms, fine!

 

Just as I anticipated my emotionally crippled husband withdrew and detached from me. I said how I could see us splitting up and him being totally estranged and cold towards me thereafter (he thought that he would too!) He said he was tired of my never ending obsession with our relationship and it's problems. I said I was tired of his never ending failure to do anything other than end his friendships with his OW to show me how much he truly loved and wanted me.

 

Anyway, he closed down, got the hump, and has now taken the dogs out for a walk (or has he???!) as a sign of protest and disapproval.

 

He doesn't get. He'll never get it. He can't get it. That's just the way he is.

 

Last week I sat up all night thinking about us. About how crap he's been in doing very simple things I'd asked him to do to please me. He came down in the morning and asked what I'd been doing. I told him I'd been thinking about us and that I realised he was never going to do the things I needed from him. That I realised I had to either accept what he was offering and stop hoping for the impossible, or I had to call it a day if I couldn't be contented with that.

 

I told him I could see us getting divorced....no response.

 

Then I said I'd probably end up having an affair.

 

His reply? "You say that but I know you'd never do that"

 

God knows I'd love him to respond to my needs. God knows I've given him ample opportunity. God knows I love this man, but not that sodding much!!

 

I'm so close to calling time. I'm so sad it has come to this. I'm so sorry my husband will let me go without a fight. I'm disappointed he isn't who I want.

 

It's time for me to make a decision.

 

Do I stay with him and be grateful for what I have? A man with narcisisstice traits, absent of emotion, void of feeling, but nevertheless someone I love, the father of my children, a father they love,, but a father whose lack of empathy and heart has hurt and confused them and me throughout our lives?

 

Or do I leave him? Make that break. Take that step and separate from him? Do I make a decision which will turn my children's lives upside down? A decision I know will devastate them? Something I know they definitely don't want (they've actually told me when the subject has come up in connection with our friends divorces). Do I end our marriage a month before our daughter (who has special needs) leaves for a boarding school she does not want to go to? When she's scared and fearful of leaving us go to a place she doesnt know, doesn't want to know and doesn't want to be in?

 

Do I leave him when my 14 yr old boy is hanging around with the 'wrong crowd', is challenging our authority, testing the boundaries, behaving exactly like the kind of 14 yr old we don't like?

 

He's still not back from his midnight walk with the dogs. With a bit of luck he won't come back at all.

 

I'll stay if it's best for our kids, I will. I can do it and will do it if that's what they need. I just don't know if that IS what they need?

 

Your thoughts and comments?

 

Thanks guys,

 

Veronese

xxxxx

[newbby]

veronese, i dont know if your h is a narcissist or not, but i do know that its easy to prove any theory, and especially if it is one you fear. from what you have written here, he sounds like most men! i am sure that you as an intelligent woman will have considered this anyway. so narcissist or not, you still have to make decisions based on how he is, whether you want to continue a relationship with him. taking the a's out of the situation, is he still someone you are unhappy with? i mean, is he the same as he was before you discovered the a's? or is he the same, but then you now know something you didn't? his reactions of withdrawal and retreat do sound like typical male responses. i would say, maybe stop talking about it with him, just stop. this gives him the chance to think about this all on his own. at least that way you know that you have given him that chance. then you can rethink. however, all this is without knowing too much about your situation.

[jonesgirly]

V.....you're husband sounds exactly like mine. And I mean exactly. The narcissistic-traits are very difficult to live with, and never really change/improve. I truly believe the only way to live with a narcissistic person is to manage yourself 'around' them.

 

Your situation differs from mine in that you have children together. This puts a quite a 'spin' on the situation. Yes, its always best to raise kids within a happy and healthy union. Key words = "happy and healthy."

 

Your H's lack of empathy has certainly affected his children. If nothing else, his son will learn by 'observing' how a "husband" treats his "wife." That would be my absolute biggest fear - that my kids would repeat 'learned behavior'. HOWEVER........from what I've read (about N-ism), as long as there is a parent that is warm,caring,loving,etc (aka "you"), the chances are slim that the kids will develop the life-long traits of the N-istic parent.

 

That being said, I will say that my H's father (although I never met the man), absolutely had NPD (narcisstic personality disorder). He was controlling, abusive (emotionally and physicially) to his son, abusive to his wife, and in general, quite an S.O.B. He was emotionally 'absent' from the family, and displayed absolutely NO remorse for his hurtful actions. For this, I will always 'know' that he produced the man whom I love, but cannot love me back.

 

I have ALSO seen narcissistic-traits in at least one of my husbands sons! The extreme lack of personal-responsibility, lack of attachment, lack of compassion, and lack of empathy - its glaringly obvious to me.

 

They grew up with a father who would make their mother (my H's ex-W) cry, and leave her there in the room with the echo of his hurtful words lingering in the air. Not a good way to raise young men. And I don't care "what" his excuse was, there is absolutely no reason to do that.

 

I don't understand why your H wouldn't even put forth an effort with counseling. OH WAIT A MINUTE! - I DO understand!

 

My H would attend counseling for a short period of time, and then quit (he states that the counselors "didn't care about him."). Besides, they ("our guys") usually aren't very truthful about the situation anyway. Its almost comical.

 

From what I've learned, sometimes a person with NPD reacts (with some sort of insight) when a major life upheaval occurs (death or divorce). Sometimes is big gamble when you know you won't be able to 'undo' it.

 

I feel for you V.....your situation is much worse than mine - you have children together. A daughter with special needs, a son at that "age"........geez, what a difficult place you live in!

 

 

he asked me what was up with me

Hey! at least he noticed and asked! (just trying to give you a balanced look here)

 

 

I rarely raise my concerns these days. I know I'm wasting my time and need to work it out for myself.

This is the hard part for me too. Life shouldn't be like this in a marriage. Its amazing how much we 'change' ourselves in order to adapt to our suck-ass surroundings.

 

 

He doesn't get. He'll never get it. He can't get it. That's just the way he is.

EXACTLY. This is a point that is very difficult to reconcile in your mind. You think rationally, logically, emotionally, and empathatically. He is incapable of that.

 

You know what the best example of the difference in personalities is? (or are?) WE try to learn about our husbands, what is going on in their minds, how to help the situation, how to improve the situation, etc.

 

You know what "they" do? NOTHING. They're not capable of empathizing and have absolutely no desire to change 'perfection.'

 

You are doing exactly as I have, V. You tell them that you love them, but you want 'more.' They make the decision whether or not to give it. Sucks, but that's basically the way it is. I have told my husband that I love him, that I will always love him (no matter where we end up), and that I will always care about him. He never responds with these words towards me, and I don't expect him to. They are stubborn and bull-headed. Not gonna change.

 

Its a serious biatch coming to terms with this. They can 'say' they love you, and 'say' they care about you.......they just CANNOT 'show' it, at least not in the way that "you" (the spouse) needs it. They have their 'own way' of showing it, but it has nothing to do with you. They are incapable of seeing another persons point-of-view and/or "needs." They will NOT try to meet your emotional/physical/colorful/whatever needs. They cannot 'see' them, and it does not matter.

 

You almost wish they'd do something soo horrible that there would be "no doubt" what your decision should be. But they are far smarter than that. Its a slow, deliberate, power struggle/control issue that just 'creeps' up on you.

 

Typical comment from NPD-types:

"its your decision" - to divorce - they had absolutely NO control or influence over the decision. Yah! But they wouldn't do anything to fix it either! In their mind, the blame is firmly planted on YOU.

 

Oh, V.......I SO UNDERSTAND YOUR SADNESS. I feel EXACTLY like you do: "I'm so sad my husband would let me go without a fight." That pretty much sums it up.

 

I also fight the 'urge to flee' symptoms constantly. I KNOW that he would never try to 'get' me back, and I know that it would be over. In fact, I have never felt the urge to leave more than I have this evening. I started drinking wine just so I would get in the car and leave. My H also has suicidal/depressive tendancies, and I was afraid that he would do something stupid. And that is the ONLY reason I'm here tonight. Alone, in my lower-level apartment.

 

V, I don't know how to get a grip on the feelings. The knowledge that they are just NEVER going to 'fight' for you. The knowledge that they are never going to 'try'. All the while, you KNOW that they 'do' love YOU, in their own way. And you also know that they 'do' NEED you, just to (in a way) protect them from themselves. Its just not enough for everyday people that expect a two-way street in marriage.

 

I empathize with the sadness I can see in you. I identify with it, but have a hard time expressing it. I can't say that 'things will get better', because they probably won't. I can't say that if you really go through with at least a separation he may 'get it', because he may not. I understand your knowledge that doing anything with these men is a 'gamble' that may be irreversible, when all you're trying to do is salvage the marriage.

 

Your kids would survive a separation or divorce. You would handle it like the loving, caring parent that you are. Have no doubts there. I can identify with the feeling that you WOULD sacrifice your own happiness FOR your childrens, but do not be fooled into thinking that they will be unaffected by their parents' unhappy marriage.

 

You may want to ask yourself if you CAN stay with him and be grateful for what you have. You live once. You are responsible for your own happiness. You make that decision - to settle for what you have, instead of what you want or need. Thats quite a trade-off.

[norajane]

Remind us (yourself) what his good points are? What does he do for you and the children that you believe are significant contributions to your lives? Is he a good father? What would you and the kids miss about having him in your lives every day?

 

Do those things outweigh everything else that is a problem?

[whichwayisup]

Right now put yourself and your children first. What your husband thinks or feels isn't worth worrying about at all - Not unless he makes some serious efforts into realizing HIS part in this.

 

Don't do anything right now. You're just starting to realize different things and have taken a big step back...Just see how life goes in the next few weeks or even a month. Live your life for you and your kids...

 

I am sorry to hear that your H is being a jerk. He really hasn't a clue WTF he's about to lose...

[veronese]

Thanks for all your very useful replies... I needed to hear them.

 

Newbby, his affairs are not the issue anymore, although they were certainly what caused me to question everything I thought about, well, everything!

Finding out made me see things about him and our marriage that I hadn't seen before. I couldn't ignore problems we'd always had but hadn't wanted to acknowledge.

 

JG, you know exactly where I'm coming from so it's always good to hear your thoughts on the subject!

 

Norajane, good idea! THanks. I'm going to take your advice and may post the answer to your question.

 

WWIU, wise words from you as usual. I think you are right and have decided not to rock the boat at the moment. It's not the right time to do anything drastic only weeks before my daughter leaves for school. She needs stability, security and buckets and buckets of love and reassurance to help her through the transition. Splitting up with her dad is verging on the ridiculous quite honestly. I really do need to think sensibly and responsibly, I shock myself sometimes with my foolishness!!

 

Will keep you posted and give some thought to that list of his good points. Think I've been getting carried away with focussing on his flaws.

 

Thanks again guys

 

love veron xxx

[johan]

He sounds pretty normal to me. Maybe exhausted, but normal.

 

My ex was always pitching what she heard on Dr. Laura's radio show at me, trying to point out how I was inadequate. She never found any particular faults with herself, but she had something waiting for me all the time. She was always looking for stuff, but it was generally her imagination about my evil nature laid over with the "reality" she heard on that show. I grew to hate Dr. Laura. I would flinch and respond with anger every time I heard her name mentioned, because I knew what was coming.

 

When I realized that anger was getting me nothing, I responded with indifference, because I believed that nothing she was saying about me was true. She was taking hints of reality about other people's lives and turning them into worst-case scenarios about ours. So I just tried to keep things calm and change the subject. It did keep things calmer, but it also meant that she was even less sure that I loved her. She needed the passion that I expressed when I was upset. Happiness wasn't enough. Over time I realized indifference wasn't doing anything either. One day when she hit me with another crazy accusation, I snapped and broke it off.

 

I paid a lot of money for couples' counseling. Two different counselors. Her belief going in each time was that "our" problems were due to my "problems", and she was excited to think she'd be getting some qualified backup for her theories. She showed up later and later over time, as the focus of the sessions turned more and more to what was the reason for her prejudice against me. Then she missed sessions. Then we didn't go anymore. She didn't find it valuable if she and me and the counselor weren't going to focus on my problems.

 

After it was all over she told me that I was the best guy she had ever been with. I don't really think she'll find someone with as much patience as I had. The tragedy is that she actually did love me, and had she been able to put her obsessions aside and just love and trust, we would have lived happily ever after. That's not an exaggeration.

[LakesideDream]

Something similar happened to me seven years ago. After being diagnosed correctly with a birth defected gall bladder, and intestional destruction that came with it I had an operation, which cleared the problem.

 

This problem has lingered five years longer than our (then) 23 year old marriage. The chronic illness I suffered, usually at holidays (unusual rich food a reletives) caused many riff's in our relationship, as she had never believed that I was really sick the next day. She actually confessed to me that she though I had found a way to "trick" thermometers into reading 104 to get out of second days with her reletives!

 

After a week of recovery, I sent roses to my wife's workplace with a card reading "Thank you for 23 great years, here's to 23 more!". She came home that night and told me she was going to "leave" to "find herself". That she expected me to keep the house going, and care for the near adult children while she did.

 

She procrastinated, our children were 19 and 17 (both HS grads) and we were almost empty nesters. I had no idea that she had been participating in a relationship for a year longer than our marriage with her "high school sweetheart" off and on, sometimes with a few years between meetings, (and didn't find out for 2 more years) and was currently (past 5 years) involved in a series of short affairs with co-workers.

 

Eventually she relented, and agreed to go to couples counciling. We went through 5 councilors in 3 months. Each quickly came to the same conclusion. They deduced that before couples counciling my ex needed to go to a professional for therapy to deal with the root issue of her life, the fact that her father had committed suicide when she was ten (diagnosed with MS) and her mother "accidentially" downed a full bottle of seconal six months later, leaving her and her brother orphaned with an elderly grandmother. As soon as the councilor said this, she fired them and I had to look for another. She had suffered all her life with "abandonment issues".

 

Two years later, (and a move to another state to "start over") she left to be with her "high school sweetheart" (he had an equally long marriage, and three school aged kids). I just let her go. Three day no fault divorce, no kids living with us, fuss, muss or bother.

 

What I didn't know was theat her HS friend lived in the city "we" chose to move to. Yes I ended up with lots of "wasted" money and time for councilors, but there was a silver lining. When it was over, I was ready to let it go. I leared that the woman I loved above all else in the world, didn't love me.

 

I hope it works out better for you, but if not, remember what the councilors have said. It may soften the blow down the road.

[veronese]

Hi Johan,

 

Good point, I think I am guilty of finding fault with him too often these days and am probably enjoying it more than I should. Having adored him and praised him for 17years along with the world and his wife and throughout those years received barely any compliments from either him or our friends and family, I've probably been a bit too eager with my list of complaints

 

Even after he told my parents that he'd been seeing OW (incidentally confessing the barest minimum and admitting to only the one), they still thought the sun shone out of his arse. In fact their reaction was nauseatingly supportive, of him, not me.

 

Everyone else who knew about it were equally unpeterbed by his behaviour and seemed more bemused by mine...why was I making such a big deal? Didn't I appreciate my H's unstinting devotion to me not to have run off with any OW already? (Him being such a wonderful, handsome, practically perfect guy and me being bloody lucky to have such a man?)

 

I went from thinking he was close to perfection to knowing he was just as flawed as the next person. I didn't divulge the facts to anyone in detail so any criticism I made of him I made directly to him, not to anyone else.

 

Anyway, I know I'm far from perfect, I've been reminded at regular intervals by family and friends. Maybe my inadequacies need as much attention as his?

 

I do realise though that it's time I remembered why I still love him..I'm going to write that list!

 

love veron

[johan]

Hey, Veronese,

 

What you wrote is a long list of things to be angry about.

 

I always suspected some kind of massive rage inside my ex. Sometimes her eyes were full of fire. One time a counselor said something to her, I don't remember what, that looked like the first step down the path to figuring out what my ex had going on inside. And I remember how she was holding back so many tears and so much emotion. It was the most real I had ever seen her. But she didn't let it out, and she didn't let the counseling progress.

 

I know she wasn't mad at me. I never hurt her. Her anger was misdirected, and it came out as something like abuse toward me. I could have been a saint and taken it all, except it was really affecting me and it was making it hard for us to be happy or progress. She would never marry me. But I loved her enough to deal with problems with her, if she had been my partner in the process.

 

Don't misdirect your anger. Don't express it in ways that are not directly related to what it was that made you angry. Don't destroy your relationship if, without all this hassle, it's one you value.

 

It's possible your husband has problems, just like everyone does. I don't really know about those. But your anger, coming out like it does, is easy for me to see.

 

It's obvious that your friends and family, and even your husband, are insensitive to you. You have a right to be upset about that. You may not be able to change it. Just make sure you deal with your anger (and your sadness and fear) in the best way possible.

[Ladyjane14]

If I were going to name 10 people here at LS whose advice I respect the most, and who I think really has a level head on their shoulders... you would undoubtedly be among them. You've got it goin' on!

 

That said, it's sooooo much easier to see the other guy's sitch than it is to see our own. Our doubts creep up on us, and even when we think we've got it all ironed out.... we sometimes second-guess ourselves.

 

I'm over two years out, and although I don't do it EVERYTIME I get mad these days... if I'm mad enough, I STILL wonder why the heck I didn't sh*tcan that guy when I had the chance! ( I was THAT mad earlier today, btw. )

 

All in all, I think most men can be described as "narcissistic". I don't mean to offend the guys reading here at LS... but by female standards, they have the propensity to be a communications nightmare. I can't think of a single woman I know who can't, at times, describe her mate as "selfish". So, in some ways... I have to admit, I believe that's just the 'nature of the beast'.

 

Sure, I've wondered if there's a better deal out there than what I have. Geez... who doesn't? But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with my husband that doesn't seem to be wrong with everybody else's. I guess it's true that, as humans, we have more the same than different. Excepting cases of mental illness... my guy isn't all that much different than any other guy.

 

(Thusly, we come to the crux of why I believe that the whole "soulmate" concept is complete and utter horsesh*t, btw.

Unless there's some kind of major malfunction... I think any of us can 'make it work' with whomever we choose. )

 

I don't know your husband. He might actually be a 'narcissistic personality'. You won't know either unless you can get him evaluated by a professional. But... I think in some ways, we're all just a little bit narcissistic. And as viewed by females... I think it's likely that men in general are moreso.

 

"You can't live with 'em and you just can't shoot 'em.

Men! I'm talkin' 'bout men." ---- The Forrester Sisters

 

Anyway, what helps me to get through the tough times, when I'm really full of doubt, is to remind myself that for whatever inane reason... I love that man. Then I grit my teeth and force myself to go and find some stupid way to show it.

[RecordProducer]

Ladyjane, I like your traditional southern mentality - as you stated it previously - and find it quite refreshing in this modern era. I also believe that with a lot of love, respect, and willingness to sacrifice even people who are not soul mates by nature can function in a healthy long-lasting marriage.

 

However in this case we have a man who DOES NOT LOVE his wife. He had cheated on her (please note that she posted this in the Infidelity forum) and all troubles come from that deed. Unfortunately they don't end as the affair ended. He is not willing to give her affection, attention, and love.

 

Jonesgirl, I don't even want to discuss whether you should divorce or not. I don't know you or your husband or your situation with your children or what you would do if you would divorce him. That decision has to be made by you and nobody else.

 

You might separate from him and then reconcile and you might separate from him and later ask yourself why it took you so long to leave. You might stay with him because you love him, because you don't feel like starting from a scratch now, and for the sake of your children. You might work things out and live happily ever after.

 

We are here to help you sort out your thoughts and we'll try our best. Your husband is indifferent or is pretending to be indifferent to protect himself. You have to talk to him and see what he has to say. So far he hasn't said anything. It doesn't mean anything.

 

He might be hurting inside or he might be waiting for you to pack your (or his) bags. I would suggest that you hear his side of the story. "I can't offer you more than this" is something we've heard and said many times in our lives. But objectively it's not true.

 

If he doesn't want to go to MC then organize it at home, between you and him. Ask him what he wants from this marriage. Calm down and ask him in a friendly way if he realizes that he hasn't been giving you what you want. If he repeats that he can't give you more than this, ask him if he thinks this is really good enough. Ask him how he would feel if you would cheat on him, neglect him, stay friends with your ex-lover, and refuse to fulfill any of his needs then claim that's all you can give.

 

Ask him if he is so incapable of being a better person and actually admits that. Or perhaps he thinks he is perfect. Ask him to list his faults and your faults. And finally ask him if he wants to stay married to you and work on your marriage or he would rather divorce, but not change anything.

 

My grand-mother told my mom: "If you open the door to leave a man and he doesn't run after you, walk out without turning around; he isn't worth staying."

 

Give yourself time to think, imagine thoroughly both options (staying vs. leaving) and don't do anything when you're upset. Basically when you decide what you will do, it should give you a feeling of relief. When you think of leaving, does it give you a feeling that you will start a better life or that you will struggle and suffer?

 

Come here to vent and express your thoughts and feelings. We are here to listen and give you comfort and support.

[jonesgirly]

Jonesgirl, I don't even want to discuss whether you should divorce or not.

 

Me neither...I already know I should......just trying to muster up the balls to do it.

 

NPD-types are akin to 'passive-aggressive'......they "love you" in their own way, but have nothing more to offer than what THEY offer. For me, it feels like he is 'withholding' something he knows I need. There is no concern for how you may feel, what you may want (no matter how easily obtained), etc. The most striking thing I've dealt with is the lack of empathy. Its obvious in my H, and it appears to be that way with V's husband too.

 

It really is 'settling' for what they are willing to give you. Thats a HUGE decision........to accept them 'as is', or not! I don't know how I could reconcile this in MY mind. To give and give and give, solely for the 'good' of the family and marriage, all by yourself, is truly a feeling of being alone. Having to run 'damage control' constantly is unnerving, and isolates me from my friends. I know, I know, I've allowed it. But it really did creep up slowly, starting early on with just his extreme jealousy I attributed to his ex-w's cheating. Oh, if I'd known THEN what I know NOW..............

 

I guess its all in determining if the "good" out-weighs the "bad." Very personal decision, indeed.

[RecordProducer]

Jonesgirl, I don't even...

I am sorry, I meant Veronese. I was referring to the original poster in this thread. I know Jonesgirl has her own thread.

 

I guess its all in determining if the "good" out-weighs the "bad." Very personal decision, indeed.

Hm... I don't think it's about mathematics. It's rather a state of mind and heart. Once you decide to leave, you're gone no matter what. And if you don't have the courage to leave, you won't no matter how terrible the situation is.

[Ladyjane14]

However in this case we have a man who DOES NOT LOVE his wife. He had cheated on her (please note that she posted this in the Infidelity forum) and all troubles come from that deed.

 

How do you know that, RP?

Certainly, he's committed unloving actions in the past. And I think it's safe to say that he's not loving Veronese in the way that she would best recognize as love.... but how do we know he doesn't love her?

 

I'm convinced that there's 'the truth' and there's 'the truth of the moment'. I think alot of folks who have affairs are experiencing the latter. Perception is their truth, and when they perceive that they are unloved, they behave reciprocally in an unloving manner.

 

Resentment and anger color our view sometimes. Our partner can love us to pieces... but if we don't feel their love in a way that we recognize, we perceive ourselves to be unloved. Then... we go out and do something stupid... like cheating on them.

 

When resentments are resolved, anger dissipates, and once more we're able to give and receive love with our partner. A good relationship can be resumed. Because the love wasn't really gone, it was only misunderstood... blocked by negative emotions.

 

I do believe there are times when love cannot be retrieved. I believe there are indeed times when it is dead and gone. But not always, not even when there's been an incident of infidelity.

 

I think Jonesgirly has it right. Sometimes people love you in their own way and as best as they're able. Unfortunately, that's not something we have control over. We can either take it, or leave it.... much as Veronese posted earlier, but we're not going to CHANGE anybody except ourselves.

 

 

My grand-mother told my mom: "If you open the door to leave a man and he doesn't run after you, walk out without turning around; he isn't worth staying."

 

I have personally had that blow up in my face a time or two. Some folks don't play games. Not everyone will respond to an ultimatum like that by chasing the object of their affection.

 

I tried that maneuver with my husband way back in the day. I figured if he really loved me, he'd prove it. Guess what! He really loved me, but after A YEAR... I finally had to go and round him up.

[veronese]

Oh my God Johan, what you said made me see what a horrible old cow I've become! All I do is point out his faults yet I know full well that the way I behave is not acceptable or healthy for our relationship either. But pig-headed as I am, I've been hell bent on doing absolutely nothing to mend any of my less attractive ways until he's changed all of his. What hope do we have if I'm doing things that damage our M?!!

 

AND!!!! Telling him he's got narcisisstic traits, has serious issues and needs to get his arse off to a therapist as a matter of urgency smacks of pot and kettle methinks. Maybe if I spent less time researching his defects and more researching mine I'd do more good than at present? Jeez! Are there no limits to my remarkable stupidity? Apparently not!

 

We both need some IC and sort out our demons so we can maybe get some benefit out of MC later on. My H has no doubt a sizeable amount of work to do on himself but boy, I'm embarressed to say I've an veritable array of problems to sort out myself.

 

I've had a turbulent, eventful, fairly bloody traumatic past (pre-H) but thought I'd been quite successful in letting things go and moving on without carrying the baggage. Honestly there's been so much of it I couldn't have brought it all with me even had I wanted to!

 

But what's the betting I didn't actually deal properly with anything? It wouldn't surprise me seeing as I've turned out the way I have.

 

Johan, I'm so glad you posted. Thank you.

 

LJ, I'm flattered by your compliment especially as I have a lot of respect and admiration for you too - only difference is you made my top 5! I don't think I deserve your kind words though, God knows I'm kind of struggling over here! I'm not proud of myself for being this way. Sometimes I think way too much to be healthy or constructive and frequently disappoint myself for being so weak and selfish.

 

Your point about your H being no worse than other men out there applies to mine as well, in fact my H compares very favourably to the husbands I know. Which leads me to ponder...are my friends particularly crap at choosing men who make most anyone shine in comparison? Because honestly LJ, my H has very little in common with those guys and I still don't know of a better H.

 

Like you, I think that 'soulmate' expression is complete and utter bollocks. And you're right about making things work if you want to. Day to day I haven't got much to complain about but recently I seem to have lost sight of that fact. I do love my H, even on those days when I can't stand the sight of him!

 

Thanks so much LJ. Between you and Johan I think I have seen the light..I really do appreciate it.

 

RP. thanks for your reply and for being supportive. It's nice to know I can come here to rant. You are wrong about my husband not loving me though. He does. Of that I am certain. He just doesn't show it in a way that I'd like him to. It is a problem for me because I feel a need for more affirmation.

 

But he does show me his love in many many ways, each and every day and he doesn't understand why I can't see that and be satisfied. It's a mismatch of meeting each others' needs RP, we're both at fault. Similarly you aren't always able to appreciate the finer nuances affecting all relationships. You speak a lot of sense RP but you still have much to learn.

 

JG - what's a girl to do? The more I read about NPD made me very dispondent about my M so I've got more negative about it. But what if I'm wrong? What if I'm right? Sometimes knowledge aint such a great thing after all!

 

Instead of focussing on what's wrong with him, I'm going to face up to what's wrong with me...there's plenty of it!

 

Hope things are bearable there JG. Big hugs

 

Veron xxx

[veronese]

I haven't forgotten about that list....I'll post it tomorrow.

 

v x

[Ladyjane14]

Are there no limits to my remarkable stupidity? Apparently not!

 

If it makes you feel any better.... you're NOT alone on that score.

Remember that I mentioned that I was REALLY mad at him yesterday. Guess who was WRONG in that one?

 

Yup... that'd be me, the girl with the egg on her face.

I totally over-reacted to something stupid. (I'd have to PM the details to you because it's TMI for the board, not to mention fairly embarrassing.) And on top of it all, I had NO LEG TO STAND ON; I was totally WRONG.... so I had to eat crow and apologize.

 

....because I feel a need for more affirmation.

 

And THAT's the same little bugger that got me in trouble.

I don't have to have "affirmation" from anybody else. Don't get me wrong.... I enjoy it when I get it like most other folks do, but from DH... it's an EN. And when I don't get it, I'm going to eventually get frustrated and step in a pile.

[johan]

Veronese,

 

I'm glad that you feel my words could help you. Maybe you have been having a problem with perspective or understanding your feelings or something. But I do think you can't come away from this blaming only yourself and not risk feeling resentment for your family and your husband. You have legitimate concerns, and while I wouldn't recommend making a big deal out of it with them, I think you should recognize it. Your anger is real and this isn't all your fault.

 

But don't let it tear your relationship apart.

 

I'd be curious, by the way, what your husband's reaction would be if he were to read this thread. I wonder if he feels the way I felt.

 

Good luck.

[RecordProducer]

Veronese, after your last post I figured something! If you wanted to leave him, you would do it and be 100% sure that's what you wanted. You love him and say he loves you; you say he is a good man and dad, etc. So more or less you're content with him. Then I think you should work on your marriage and the first step is to get HIM to help you - to work on it together with you.

 

He refuses any work because he thinks of it as hard work (e.g. MC where he will have to be interrogated; manly men hate this!). So suggest something easier and more romantic, such as a short trip. When you get to the point where you feel very close, you can tell him in a very gentle way what you want from him wrapped up in how much you love him and how great he is overall (except when he's not ). Literally tell him: "I would like more affection, attention..." I blatantly demanded that from my husband and it worked after a few complaints at the beginning.

 

And finally you need to concentrate on your own life too and forget about him a little. Geez, our worlds revolve around our men, it's disgusting! I wish they spent 10% of the time thinking about us as much as we're thinking about them. Are our minds too idle or are we able to think about 5 things at the same time?

 

Veronese, you're not going anywhere.

[veronese]

RP, I think you're probably right! I'd be less surprised right now if it was him who did the walking.

 

I didn't know about your recent traumas until I read your thread last night. I could see how hard it was for you to make the decision especially as your H turned into Super Wanker Extraordinaire.

 

Hope you are doing OK now and are enjoying happier times.

 

Hugs

 

Veron xx

[veronese]

He makes me laugh

He's a good father

He's involved with the kids/plays with the kids/is interested in the kids

He's bloody gorgeous looking. Handsome face. Perfect physique. He's tall. Strong. Fit. Best looking man I know.

He's intelligent

He's calm

Hes well read

We have a good sex life whenever we can

He's tactile, demonstrative

He's affable, aggreable, easy going

He drinks in moderation, has never smoked nor done drugs

He isn't aggressive or violent

He hasn't given up on me/us

He's helpful

Kind

Brings me a cup of tea every morning

He isn't jealous or possessive. He trusts me

He's forgiving

He curls around my body perfectly in bed at night

He isn't very critical

He never moaned about my weight gain post-children

He loves my body the way it is. Loves my flabby tummy because that's where I carried our babies.

Never moaned about me having to give loads of time to my parents at times

Stayed with me despite his family's opposition

Stayed with me despite my family's opposition

Forgave my racist parents' after they ostracised him for 5 years (and only met him the day our first child was born because he refused to leave my bedside before they arrived to visit me in hospital)

He's always worked hard and all his income goes on our family

He's one in a million and I know he loves me

As I do him....

[veronese]

he's a lying, cheating git

he's unreasonable

he's grumpy

he has no empathy or compassion

he smiles a smile when he talks to women that he never gives to me

he doesn't take responsibility for things like finances, bills, paperwork, well everything really

he still treats me like I have a problem with any woman he encounters, but he has the problem with his attitude towards me

he doesnt' tell me many details of his day other than job spec, traffic jams etc.

he bites my head off if I ask him about certain female colleagues

and then denies he has a problem with it

he contradicts himself frequently

sometimes when we're talking I really don't have a clue what he's on about

he's not very protective

during even the most critical moments of marital conflict (e.g. when I found out about his OW) his face is expressionless, blank, empty

he hasn't done ANYTHING about taking me out more. Two and a half years and we've been out twice in the day together, and twice in the evening (I'm only counting dates on our own) and boy does that piss me off! He managed to find time to meet OW for lunches and afternoons in the park. Managed to phone them and cheer them up. But he won't find time for me

he's tactile and affectionate but can also be detached and indifferent

he can be very selfish, inconsiderate and childish

he can be short tempered with the children when there's no reason for it

he thinks he's a nice guy, a nice guy who cheats on his wife for years

he resents my confidence and capability

he doesn't do anything to maintain friendships (other than with OW of course!)

he cant see the obvious

he shouts at kids for doing things he does himself

he hogs the living room and dominates the tv (sport mostly, yawn)

i could go on but I have to go....maybe add more later

oh yeah, he has never put any effort, energy, emotion or passion into our marriage, he just trundles along, goes with the flow, lethargic and inept. Thinks by dumping the OW he'd done enough to repair the damage (or did he?)

he can be quite bossy and domineering and spreads his moods around the whole family

[sylviaguardian]

Veron,

 

I am a bit confused because I just replied to your earlier post earlier (!) but I still wanted to add something here. First of all what Johan and LJ said was absolutely superb advice - I am amazed when I read such top advice here. The stuff that Johan said made me wince actually because I am guilty of all the same things as you. I totally back up what LJ said about there being no soulmate because a soulmate is someone who we dream up to fit our own expectations - they are never real. I did an exercise off the internet that got you to write down everything about your ideal man. looks, job, personality etc, so far so good. Then it made you write down what their toilet habits were like, how they acted when sick, how they would act when they were really pissed off ...er...that's the point when you realise that your ideal person is not really a person - they're just a fantasy. Anyway, that was a long-winded way of saying that everyone has faults. It's just whether we can cope with their faults that is the issue.

 

I have to admit when you wrote the list of your husband's good points, I was thinking 'I'll have him!' For me, a person who is not tactile is a BIG problem. Unfortunately I chose to marry a person who is very self-contained and non-tactile. Probably I did it for some deep psychological reason that I'm not aware (i.e. people who are really tactile might freak me out in real life). So I really want it and I don't which is a pretty wierd situaiton. Why did you like your husband in the first place? Did he appear self-confident, charming, independent? Sometimes we grow to hate the things we used to love and expect that person to change and it's not really possible.

 

The reason why I cringe so much at what Johann said is because I've been down that road myself. I too thought that my husband had NPD. I was convinced of it and thought he could never change so it was better to get rid of him now. In fact I've dredged up just about every bad thing he ever did since we met and convinced myself that I should have RUN before we got married. That's all well and good but the reality is that there weren't enough bad things to outweigh the good and I still went ahead and married him and had two children with him. Stupidly, before I found out about his affair I was pretty happy with my life.

 

Veron, hun, out of all of the people on this site I see more parallels with you and JG than anyone. You've tried so hard, don't beat yourself up. And you've got a right to your anger but as JG or Johan said, don't let it decide your future for you. You obviously still love your husband.

 

I have been in your situ so many times - I WILL stay, no I WILL go. My husband was out a couple of weeks ago looking for a place to buy and we had told the kids. But somewhere inside I realised that while I still have love for him I have to try. Something clicked with him too and he's agreed to go to counselling - we have an appointment on Thurs. I have realised that the sessions will be as much about me controlling my anger as him changing.

 

I guess some of the change for me came from realising that my husband is not a happy person. How could you be when you destroy all the good things in your life. Your husband sounds like he has a problem with needing attention and he's let that control his life.

 

I don't know what else to say. All I can say is that I feel for you. It's a lonely lonely place where you are now.

 

Big hugs,

 

your friend

Sylvia

 

P.s. Some/all of this may not make sense - I drank a bottle of mulled wine before typing