I love my H, but will never trust him

[jonesgirly]

MC, appt. #2

 

Well, we went to our second marriage counseling appointment. I like the counselor (female), but she indicated that her 'specialty' is not marital and/or infidelity. She gave us a referral to someone she considers "the best" in marriage and especially, Imago therapy.

 

I did NOT race to the phone to obtain the next available appointment.

 

My husband has not been honest with me, or with his counselor for that matter. I don't think he CAN be.

 

We are separated (since May '06), but living in the same house - we have a lower level with a complete apartment that I live in.

 

I recently obtained emails that he had been sending to his 'g/f' - RECENT ones - last week! (PM me if you need to know how) Although he knew that I had a 'screenshot' of her "sent" emails (replys to HIS), he didn't know that I had the entire content of each email.

 

Our counselor wanted me to confront him, but I wasn't really "in to" doing that. I know that my H does not handle being 'busted' very well by anyone, let alone feeling like he had been 'ganged-up' on. I had realized that he must really have a strong attachment to her if he has continued to maintain this relationship all this time (3+ years). She hasn't even worked with him for two years!

 

But he had emailed her that he does "miss her", and also disclosed a lot of personal information about 'me' and 'our' struggles with this whole mess. He even told her that he felt like he "needed a girlfriend" because things were so stressed at home. He told her that he was very attracted to her, and stated that he told her "a long time ago" that he would never tell her how he felt about her. How nice.

 

He lied and told her that "I" had told his son all about his infidelity and that his son became angry and left (to spend a couple of days at a friends house). In reality, HE told his son everything, and I was livid. I would never, ever have given his kids ANY information regarding my H's G/F and the nature of their relationship (and the counselor knew this).

 

He had even enlisted her aid to compose an email "to him" that he could forward "to me", explaining why she hadn't attended our annual Luau. Apparently, her reply about why she didn't make it (the party) would have indicated that HE KNEW she wasn't going to be attending.

 

God, I can't even imagine WHY he would choose to pile more lies on his mountain of betrayal.

 

I cannot trust this man. He lied right to my face (again), when confronted with the evidence that he WAS continuing contact with her.

You all are so right here.........they lie, and lie, and lie some more.

 

The thing is, I don't care if she's Mother Theresa........when your marriage is "at stake" and you choose to continue the behavior that pretty much destroyed it in the first place, HOW to you expect your spouse to feel?

 

His defensive makes sense now.

 

You know what I wanted? Just the basics. If I were to look around for "how to rebuild trust after an affair", I'm pretty sure that the following information would be readily available"

• Stop lying and appearing dishonest
  
• Answer your spouses questions honestly, openly, and give those answers freely. Offer something they didn't ask!
  
• Show your spouse that they ARE important to you (by basically doing the above two things)
  
• Don't get defensive if the same questions are asked, over and over again
  
• Don't expect them to believe you! (especially at first)
  
• Allow them to be angry...do you think its easy to accept that the person we chose above all others (and assumed it was reciprocated) has just learned that THEY didn't make us their first-choice?
  
• Don't say things like 'get over it,' 'you're in my FACE!', 'you'll never get past this', etc.
  
• Allow them to be angry, hurt, sad, whatever - WITHOUT bailing on them! Give them the gift of 'owning' what you did by empathizing with them. Your choices have made them question everything and really, should you expect anything else?

I have provided the above information to my H in pretty much ALL forms. He believes that his "trying to talk" and "trying not to be defensive" is enough.

 

BUT......he has become defensive and avoidant almost 100% of the time.

 

I believe it is a power struggle, or a 'control' issue with him.

 

The counselor stated to him last night that he displays 'many narcissistic personality traits' and appears to have limited ability to 'empathize' with me.

 

DUH!

 

She sees the anger in me, and thinks I need to get a handle on it. And I could, if it wasn't the 'ripe old age' of one (year) into his deceiful behavior!

 

Because I have very little "fight" left in me (at least for this marriage), I resisted the urge to say "You just saw how he is to me... You told him he turns everything around to 'him'..........You told him he doesn't 'hear' me.....You told him he doesn't 'empathize with me'.....", and you're WONDERING WHERE MY ANGER COMES FROM?

 

I am super-pissed.........

 

I have no hope for this marriage, and I know that it is because my H just couldn't find it in him to do the things I listed above.

 

And they are so freakin simple, and obvious!

 

I've been told to cut my losses and get out now. Its just so terribly difficult to watch a person that you care about 'fight' normal emotions. I never 'fought' my emotions. He even had the 'nads to accuse me of being passiv-aggressive! Of course, I replied with "I'm not PASSSIVE aggressive, I am OUTWARDLY aggressive - I'm PISSED!"

 

I KNOW he's depressed. But I'm tired of being the 'only' care-taker here. He admits he's a 'high-maintenance' person......I guess I would want to say to him; "just because YOU'RE high-maintenance doesn't mean EVERYONE ELSE is NO-maintanence!"

 

You know how to identify a true Narcissistic person? They will NEVER google 'narcissism'. There's nothing wrong with them!

 

They would never ever recognize it..

 

So here I am, loving an unlovable person. KNOWING what is not 'right', but unable to communicate effectively.

 

And I HAVE given the information to him - in list form from me, books have been recommended, e-books (how to rebuild trust) printed and given to him, and I even HIGHLIGHTED the sections in the book and asked him to read them aloud to me!

 

I truly believe that he thinks there is NO PROBLEM with the way he has behaved, and that it is all MY FAULT!

 

I'm not real excited about investing any more $$ into a counselor with my H. I may start IC on my own, and our current MC agreed that I should seek some of the programs available locally.

 

She also noted to me that he seems to have an excessive need for attention and/or sympathy, especially from women. DUH! I already knew that, but she was unaware because I'm sure he didn't tell her that he 'seeks attention from others, as if it were my job.'

 

I HATE that I know he will lie to me. I HATE that I cannot trust him. I HATE that he doesn't realize that this marriage is basically over, and he cannot do ANYTHING to prevent it.

 

Although he may have a TON of issues as a resullt of his childhood abuse, I am not going to designate myself as his 'savior.' I have done enough for this man.

 

I loved him when he was unlovable. I was loyal, and I was faithful. I bragged about his accomplishments to other. I would NOT allow others to disrespect him.

 

At the same time, he was telling his g/f how miserable he is, and how horrible I am. And then lying to me about it.

 

So, I guess the "plate" was just too far away for him to step up to?

 

To have NOT done everything possible to save 'this' marriage, my H has told me that I should never, ever trust him.

 

And it sucks big time. I know I need to get out, but I do still love him. He knows that, as I've told him I will always love him, and that I will always care about him.

 

Its just kinda sad that 'my' definition of being married and loving someone is SOOO FAR DIFFERENT from 'his' definition.

 

I dread selling the house I love. I dread dating (or not). I dread moving into an apartment or condo, I dread telling my family. I just feel so all alone, but I know I have to be strong and not dwell on the negative.

 

Narcissitic personalities suck big time. There's no treatment. There's nothing you can do but "manage" yourself around them.

 

Thanks veronese for your support.

Thanks sylviaguardian for support.

I totally 'know' where its coming from.

 

How do couples stay together when the trust is gone? Its so very difficult to reconcile in my mind that this person could not be truthful. And I'm NOT that naive..........he has even asked me (or yelled at me), for believing my ex-H when people were telling me he was cheating (he was). My H has blown the same-flavored smoke up my ass too (using the defensive/avoidance method as opposed to the 'tears' that my ex would throw at me)!

 

I must attract cheaters.

[alphamale]

How do couples stay together when the trust is gone?

I would think most of them wouldn't JG...once trust is gone its rare that it comes back.

[PinkShorts]

You know what I wanted? Just the basics. If I were to look around for "how to rebuild trust after an affair"

 

The affair is not even over. He is still carrying out in the least an emotional affair. What happened to 'no contact'?

 

He sounds like a pathological liar and I don't know if there is any way you could ever trust him again. What's the point of MC when he is still trying to contact the OW behind your back? Sounds like HE is a lost cause. You deserve a whole lot more than you are getting.

[LakesideDream]

Jonesgirly, You probably don't attract cheaters, you are probably attracted to that personality type. It doesen't matter anymore or mean that you are "doomed" as people learn, and behavior evolves.

 

From everything you have written it's difficult to advance any defense for your husbands actions. He appears to be a hopeless cause.

 

This doesen't mean you are "blameless", it means that he is responsible. He surely lays claim to incidents in his memory that he feels justify his actions. He's wrong, but he will continue to hold on to his justifications.

 

It's hard to leave your home, move, and try to rebuild your life. Dating is a real bitch, I'm divorced (cheating wife of 25 years) and I still have mucho trouble "dating". I am at the point where I enjoy the company, but cannot get interested in more. You are younger than I and may have better luck, I hope you do.

 

Try to limit your "mad" time to an period each day you choose in advance. Compartmenting it worked for me, if may for you. Try not to be drawn into his self effacing "Drama". That feeds his need to control, and keeps you stirred up. In time the blind anger you are feeling now will turn into pity, then disgust.. finally into distain. You will be home free then.

 

Good Luck.

[moon17]

I feel for you. I'm a single mom of 2, divorced now 8 years. My ex cheated on me a year and a half into our marriage. I never thought he had it in him to do the hurtful things he did to me but this is what it comes down to...Men are cowards. They would rather take care of their needs than try to talk or fix the problem they have at home. They're like children, they play stupid by pretending that they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong, and they also make themselves the victim by putting the blame on everyone else around them.

 

Your H doesn't seem to show any remorse for what he's done or for the hurt he's caused you. BE GLAD YOU'VE SEEN THIS PERSON'S TRUE COLORS AND YOU BE THE ONE TO MAKE THE DECISION TO REMOVE HIM FROM YOUR LIFE. Don't let him be the one to make that choice for you, he's given up his rights.

 

PS: I'd like to know how you got the emails.

[LakesideDream]

Wow, Moon17!

 

"Men are cowards. They would rather take care of their needs than try to talk or fix the problem they have at home. They're like children, they play stupid by pretending that they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong, and they also make themselves the victim by putting the blame on everyone else around them."

 

Maybe true of that man that time. It's certainly not true of most men most of the time. Men and Women at the core have the same "need". They need to be appreciated, positively reinforced for their effort, and to feel secure. Those are all parts of being loved.

 

When a relationship begins to break down, 90% of the time it's a lack of one of the above, perceived by one of the partners that is the root cause of the problem.

 

This is not gender specific.

[justice]

I tried to private message you but it wouldn't let me. I would like to know as there are still some things he will not reveal or talk to me about such as emails and such. If you want my email just let me know.

[jonesgirly]

Justice - you have to "enable" private messaging in your profile/CP. Edit options and check the box to enable it.

[justice]

Just did. Smiles. I'd like to know more about the computer thing. Help?

[Mz. Pixie]

JG-

 

See, this confirms that the affair is not over- and never has been.

 

A narcassist will never change- ever- because they will not acknowledge the problem.

 

I hope this doesn't sound harsh. But, it's time to put on your big girl panties and deal here sweetie.

 

Do what's best for you and get away from this jerk. You've been going back and forth on this for a year. Are you not exhausted??

 

Being alone and living in a condo is a small price to pay for peace of mind and not to have to live in this drama. Wouldn't you agree?? Or do you think at this point you're addicted to the drama??

[whichwayisup]

Wow, he's an idiot! But, sadly, he is who he is and doesn't think he's done much wrong...Which means he isn't going to change (as he feels he doesn't need to) so my dear - Sometime soon you have to decide what's best for you.

 

Can you continue living and being with him? Accept him fully as he is?

 

I can't see you ever trusting him 100% again, ever. He's made sure of that by his actions and him hiding things from you for so long. And even to this present day.

 

I know you love him, but is it enough? Can you picture what your life with him will be like in 5-10 years?

 

I want you to be happy, and your husband isn't making you happy anymore, he keeps hurting you and disrespecting you.

[Becoming]

JG--I'm sorry. This really hurts. Someone once told me that divorce is worse than the spouse's death because at least when they're gone you don't have to put up with their crap anymore.

 

Have you read dgiirl's threads? Do. They'll give you some hope.

 

Life doesn't have to be like this. You can't trust your H because he's not trustworthy. No amount of wishing is gonna make it so. That's hard to face, but you know it's true.

[alphamale]

A narcassist will never change- ever- because they will not acknowledge the problem.

You cannot change someone's basic personality...

[jonesgirly]

I just can't seem to figure out what is wrong with me.

 

I'm either dumber than gravel, self-abusive, unable to hear the fat-lady singing, or scared to death of change.

 

it's time to put on your big girl panties and deal

Mz.P...... I just can't give up the bad girl thongs for the big girl panties. (and you weren't sounding harsh to me, and I get the meaning. I just don't wanna......I'm taking my ball and going home - games over)

 

I wonder what is freaking wrong with me? Am I so terribly insecure that I would actually subject myself to living with a man who is so obviously disrespectful to me?

 

Do I think that he will someday 'get it' if I try everything possible?

 

Wait a minute.........why am "I" the one having these thoughts?

 

You'd be amazed at the email communication we have. He speaks of his desire for us to 'get back together', that he is truly sorry, he loves me soo much, he doesn't want us to split up, he's not lying, he's not hiding anything, he's not attracted to her, he doesn't care about her, blah blah blah blah............and it all turns out to be pretty much false.

 

But he ALSO fails to answer questions I ask (in email), and seriously avoids any discussion of 'reality' (i.e., "if you wanted to be honest with me, then why didn't you?").

 

<insert picture of jonesgirly banging her head against a wall here>

 

 

He sounds like a pathological liar and I don't know if there is any way you could ever trust him again

Pinkshorts thinks like jonesgirly!! (love the name by the way)

 

 

He surely lays claim to incidents in his memory that he feels justify his actions.

Lakeside dream.........Dead nuts on! He will reach and reach until he finds something that he can hold on to. Its a moving target too - rarely is his blame-shifting the same from month-to-month. (p.s. I'm NOT that much younger than you!~besides, I think it really has more to do with your mindset than your numerical age-identifier).

 

Good idea on limiting my 'angry' time. For the most part I do, especially during the busy work-week. Its the weekends that kill me. I just want to sleep all day (obviously avoiding everything), and stay up all night by myself reading LS postings

 

Sidebar....what is the significance of your name "Lakeside dream?" Just curious (actually, nosey).

 

My ex cheated on me a year and a half into our marriage. I never thought he had it in him to do the hurtful things he did to me

Doesn't it just kill you to have them be so mean, so EARLY into a marriage? Most couples still have that 'honeymoon' glow at a year and a half. My H began his tryst at about the same time into our union. Although 'our' H's choose to "fill the void" with whatever means necessary, I hope that all men aren't that way. There are some serious communication issues with these types of people. Not always men, but I hear what you're saying. Selfish lot, those 'gimme gimme, I want, I want" types, huh? Does your ex-H provide support for your children as well as caring for them on a regular basis? I was a single-parent for a long time, and I commend you for the hard work and the personal sacrifices I KNOW that you make Moon17.

 

 

Wow, he's an idiot! But, sadly, he is who he is and doesn't think he's done much wrong...

Dead nuts again WWIU! Too bad he'll never read this (not that he would have the ability to internalize any of it).

 

your husband isn't making you happy anymore, he keeps hurting you and disrespecting you.

I know. And I have no idea why I tolerate any of it. I guess I can't help but wish for the return of that "specialness" we shared in the beginning. No need to tell me to get out my 'big girl panties' and get over it I know, I know, it was all an illusion.

 

But it was MY illusion, and I was happy..and I was all those 'grown-up' things that people attain when they reach a certain comfortableness with themselves. Okay, another word for it is "old"

 

I can't see you ever trusting him 100% again, ever. He's made sure of that by his actions and him hiding things from you for so long. And even to this present day.

I won't ever trust him again, mainly because of his inability to realize that it was HIS responsibility to rebuild it. Holy GOD you have no idea how horrible it was for me to see the recent emails. The lies he told me...with a great big dose of his defensiveness thrown in (to reinforce his statements that he was NOT communicating with her in any way!). What a FVKWAD! (sometimes I really wish you could swear here, and then other times I'm glad you can't - kinda similar to that "carrying a loaded firearm" law thing).

 

But I will probably never trust another human being 100% on the planet anyway. Thanks alot, Husband-from-hell, soulmate-to-pretty-much-anyone.

 

I feel like eating a frozen something with maybe a billion calories in it. Something with Stouffers on the outside.

 

Life doesn't have to be like this. You can't trust your H because he's not trustworthy. No amount of wishing is gonna make it so. That's hard to face, but you know it's true.

Damn...you're right. This IS hard to face. I can't "wish" him to do anything. I wish I was a fairy (no, alphamale, not the gay kind) and could sprinkle magic fairy-dust (no, alpha, not the gay kind) on this whole mess.

 

You cannot change someone's basic personality...

alpha - I thought you of ALL people would "get" my joke about narcissistics in my original post. Truly, I expected a comment from you on that

You understand, and I appreciate that. I understand, too, and am attempting to face the gruesome reality of it all. I realize that no amount of anything is going to change the situation (or "sitch," as the cool bloggers say - like Ms.Pixie ). But more importantly, I really appreciate the 'male' perspective from you (and others). Your one-line responses usually hit the mark without all the wordiness (like my ramblings).

 

Thank god (and all other representatives of a 'higher being') for Loveshack. I have not spoken to anyone (other than the counselor) about all of this, and I appreciate ALL comments and supportive posts. I especially like the ones that make me feel less crazy - you cannot imagine how many times I have ALMOST thought: "he's right - I should believe what he's saying", only to have THAT thinking wiped out a short time later.

 

I STILL dread the thought of moving. When we first bought this house, I told everyone that my next 'move' would be into hospice. I guess I was wrong! I really LIKE living in a condo/townhouse - I had one before we got this place, and the lack of lawn/outside maintenance was wonderful! I guess I should've kept it.

 

Oh geez, I just got an email from the Lane Bryant Catalog to save $20 on any purchase. And I just indulged in a Stouffers macaroni and cheese.

 

I wish I could stop thinking that there will be a "magical breakthrough" that will allow him to see the big picture here. It ain't gonna happen, and the fat lady sung a LONG time ago, right?

[silktricks]

I wish I could stop thinking that there will be a "magical breakthrough" that will allow him to see the big picture here. It ain't gonna happen, and the fat lady sung a LONG time ago, right?

 

Jonesy, you're dead-on right. There will be no magical breakthrough. What you've seen is what you will get for as long as you are with him. Your H sounds like my 1st H. Controlling freakish behavior coupled with enough lies to fly 10,000 kites.

 

Move on out, take good care of yourself. We'll all be here for you whenever you need.

[Becoming]

Holy GOD you have no idea how horrible it was for me to see the recent emails. The lies he told me...with a great big dose of his defensiveness thrown in (to reinforce his statements that he was NOT communicating with her in any way!).

 

Oooh. I do know that feeling. It's like a trap door opening a shute straight to hell. Sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, elephant sitting on your chest, head swirling dizziness. Nausea.

 

Your whole world's been ripped out from under you, JG. You're not stupid; you're a good, trusting soul whom a person with his own issues took advantage of. You shouldn't feel bad--he should!

 

Seriously, go get your own townhouse, decorate it the way you want, and just go away from folks wanting to build a life on lies. That's not who you are. So hold your head up high and walk away with those big-girl panties on--the ones with the ruffles on the butt.

 

LS will get you through the tough times and help launch you into a new life when ready.

 

Take your power back, girl. This is your life. Make of it what you will. If you want to sit around in Delusion Land, OK. We all do at some time or another in our lives. But I've been watching you muster up the courage like my old arthritic dog to finally get up and walk: it takes some rising and falling and trembling before it all comes together and you can just move on. Looks to me like you're 'bout there.

[RecordProducer]

BUT......he has become defensive and avoidant almost 100% of the time.

I believe it is a power struggle, or a 'control' issue with him.

The counselor stated to him last night that he displays 'many narcissistic personality traits' and appears to have limited ability to 'empathize' with me.

DUH!

IMHO, this is BS. He is simply reluctant to repair anything because he doesn't care. He wants this to be over. I am sorry you're going through this, but that's what it seems like to me.

 

She sees the anger in me, and thinks I need to get a handle on it.

Yes, you should, because:

 

I have no hope for this marriage, and I know that it is because my H just couldn't find it in him to do the things I listed above.

 

And they are so freakin simple, and obvious!

Yes, it's very obvious and these things would come naturally in his heart had he wanted to save your marriage. He is sabotaging his part on purpose. He might be stubborn and proud, but he certainly isn't retarded, is he?

I truly believe that he thinks there is NO PROBLEM with the way he has behaved, and that it is all MY FAULT!

If he believes that and that's how it seems, he doesn't love you and doesn't care about the marriage. You should talk to a lawyer, not a MC, in my opinion. Calm yourself down, direct your mind toward some constructive ideas and file for a divorce whenever you feel like. You need to get him out of your life in order to move on. Stop beating your head off the wall about things you can't chnage and stop with the unnecessary drama, for your own sake. You need to stay strong and beat the stress. This is (one of) the most difficult phase in your life and you need not to waste your precious energy on futile attempts to save your marriage.

 

he doesn't realize that this marriage is basically over, and he cannot do ANYTHING to prevent it.

You don't realize that it's over and he is waiting for your marriage to die naturally. He doesn't want to be the dumper for whatever reasons.

I know I need to get out, but I do still love him. He knows that, as I've told him I will always love him, and that I will always care about him.

Did he tell you that he loves you?

Did he beg you for forgiveness and swear to be faithful in the future?

Did he ask you to give him another chance?

Did he ask you to change your faults so you can function as a couple?

Did he offer to change his faults?

Did he express any desire to work on your marriage and actually follow through it?

Did he cry, kiss you, hold you, look at you with remorse in his eyes, hurting because you're hurting?

Did he say his mistress never meant anything to him?

Did he admit he made a mistake?

[whichwayisup]

You don't realize that it's over and he is waiting for your marriage to die naturally. He doesn't want to be the dumper for whatever reasons.

Because right now it's working for him and he doesn't have to make a whole lot of effort.

 

Remember, most people don't let change in the first place, throw in that he's an N to the mix and a man - HE isn't going to be the first one to walk away...

 

You'll know when the right time is to call it quits. Let your heart catch up to your mind - Things will become more clear and then you can make the decision. I think too, you DO still have some faith and hope - And that just shows what a loving person you are. Unfortunately, that hope and energy is not being noticed by your husband as he's too wrapped up in this little dream world to DO what it takes to try to make it work with you.

[LakesideDream]

Jonesgirly, hiding on weekends is called depression. Back in the day, I knew all about it.

 

Lakesidedreams... again, back in the day (shortly after my divorce was final, like days) "I became re-acuainted" with my first love. It was long distance, email at first, then hours a day on the phone, the live and in person... and I was an OM.. for awhile. Retribution was one reason. A huge shot of self esteem (someone still wanted me) was another. Then there is the love part.

 

As soon as it became clear that the OM status could/would be permenant we stopped seeing each other. Occasionally we exhange emails, I send flowers to her work every couple of months on "occasions", and presents on B-day, Christmas. No, I am not over it.

But I'm not unhappy either.

 

My dreams live by a far away lake. When I discovered this forum, with people talking about love, hurt, and romance, the screen name popped into my head and I typed it in.

[Becoming]

Lovely, LakesideDreams. Great name. Welcome to the LS!

 

JG, it does sound like you're depressed. Have you seen or considered seeing a dr. for possible meds? I hate taking meds but I'll tell you when you're depressed and going through a lot, it's like the fog lifting and you are able to see more clearly when the right med kicks in.