kulyok Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 I have a Russian friend who often gives me the impression that such ideas aren't all that popular there to this day. Is that your experience? Yes, I believe the majority believes in traditional values here. And it is all good and well, but sometimes is quite unhealthy, especially when the word "must" snakes in. Then the relationship starts to resemble prostitution: the woman expects money, and more money, he expects laundry, dinner and good sex - and again, this is all well and good, but soon, they resemble business partners rather than people who love each other, constantly calculating who owes what to whom. But perhaps it doesn't have that much to do with traditional values, after all.
johan Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 Zdrastvooitye, Kulyok. Otchin horosho! I have seen relationships like that. My friend and his girlfriend, who he claimed to love, always split every bill down the middle, and the concepts of "owe" and "payment" became a part of their relationship that was meant to be based on love, generosity, and give and take. It seemed to involve a lot more accounting than I would have considered necessary. On the other hand, the breakup was pretty clean.
kulyok Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 Yes, I fully agree. It can happen like that, too, which is really upsetting. I mean, I see nothing wrong with a couple handling their finances meticulously, but making it a central point in relationship doesn't seem to work well at all. I know family specialists offer to put like 1/3rd of every salary to the joint account, and pay all family bills with it. I think it reduces the tension somewhat.
rina_r Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 Then the relationship starts to resemble prostitution: the woman expects money, and more money, he expects laundry, dinner and good sex - and again, this is all well and good, but soon, they resemble business partners rather than people who love each other, Kulyok, I came where you are now. Do not forget, American and Russian mentality/cultures differe a lot. So dont generalize.
Guest Posted July 31, 2006 Posted July 31, 2006 I heard someone recently utter that woman can either have equal rights, or chivalry, the expectation for both is questionable Men- Do you pay for dinner? First date? Second date? Sixth date?! How far do we want to take this liberated, independant women thing ladies? Would you be offended if you had to pay your own way? (obviously there is an exclusion if in the midst of a relationship- I am talking in terms of dating specifically). I went on a first date last night with a man who I asked out (I am not sure if this bares any relevance to the situation) and was completely prepared to pay my own way- he wouldn't hear of it . I must say I was pleased. This is my first real taste of the dating scene. Is this what is to be expected? Ahh, the good ol' chivalry debate. Is it dead? Depends on your definition of chivalry. I doubt many would like or agree with the 12th century definition of it and like that out moded social view, I tend to think that the 19th to 20th century view of chivalry is dead. I certainly don't practice it in that old way. I view myself as a gentleman and treat a lady like a lady but reciprocity is expected if not demanded. Everyone is given the benefit of the doubt and a general respect for a fellow human being until they show themselves otherwise. I hold doors for all when needed, and help out folks in need when I can but I do not tend to go out of my way to help a "lady" in distress however. Thats my stance on equality. Its all the time, not when it best suiting you ladies. My experience while small in years (only 29), is that these days when it comes to helping women or being an old school "gentleman" or "nice guy", the maxim of "no good deed goes unpunished" applies frequently enough as to be not worth the effort. I'll pay for a date when I ask a gal out and if dutch is offered I'll usually accept. That doesnt usually bruise my male ego and often shows respect and non selfish attitude. Still you're gonna have situations where you don't mind paying for the date etc.. I don't take it too seriously unless the gal I take out is demanding, has an entitlement complex (as a lot of western women do these days IMHO) or just expects to be "treated" because she deigned to accompany me. That attitude tells me they really only care about themselves and is not worth my time or me acting like a "gentleman". Over time in a relationship I'd expect costs to generally be shared. I mean, women make good money these days in many different jobs, why should guys always pay for a date? Tradition? Feh.
milvushina Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Maybe I'm younger than the median age of posters here and therefore a little less traditional. I don't mind asking guys out, and if I ask them out, I would offer to pay since it's my idea, but ideally the first few dates we would go dutch. My mom has a real traditional boyfriend that's about 65 and his behavior annoys me to death. He opens car doors for both of us, nice, but it's disconcerting because it's not as easy as just getting in or out of the damn car. Once I almost whacked him with the door because I didn't expect someone to be standing right behind me, reaching for my door! But my mom enjoys it, so to each their own. Why do I feel this way? Well, I work just as many hours a week to earn my money as my husband. Why would I want to pretend, when I go out, that I can't support myself? Plus, it's just weird to me to expect someone else to pay for what you eat, drink, etc. when you barely know them. I don't just give money to strangers. Until I get to know you, I don't want you to give me your money. Someone you've dated for a while can buy you as much stuff as they want, but taking/giving money to/from strangers is just kinda creepy. Around my house, we split all our bills so we each pay the same percentage of our income on bills (I make a little more so I pay a little more). That way we both have the same percent left to spend. Yes it's a little bit of work to figure it out but saves so much stress in the long run, I think. We treat each other pretty 50/50. And I like it when I'm the one who does things around the house that are not stereotypically feminie, like squish the spiders because I'm not afraid of them or fix things because I'm better with hardware. It makes me feel needed. Not like my main function is to be decoration or "emotional support." *vomit* (by the way when a guy does open doors for me, I always say "thank you" and never act resentful. there are a lot of men with this old-fashioned attitude in Texas. I know their intentions are to be kind, that's what matters.)
Lights Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 I heard someone recently utter that woman can either have equal rights, or chivalry, the expectation for both is questionable Questionable? Nope. More like outright wrong. With equal rights come equal responsibilities. It's that simple.
cutegirl Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 Hmmm, I don't really like too much chivalry. I am a woman and I ALWAYS pay for myself. I feel like I don't need jack from a man. I like being the breadwinner and earning more than my man. I'm not traditional, I don't feel like I need anyone to open my doors for me. I can open my own doors. With my bf I pay most of the time because I earn a lot more. I also pay probably 90 % of the bills. I don't need a man to take care of me financially or buy me anything. I can do it all by myself. I don't need a man to "provide" for me because I earn more than the average man. If a guy is a surgeon or a high level ceo he would outearn me, but as for a regular Joe, most likely no. I think I like it that way too. I don't like any man having financial power over me. I don't need a man to "provide" for me. I find the thought of it very displeasurable. I don't like traditional "woman values". I would never be a housewife and cook and clean either. That's what the maid is for. Also I feel that if we women want equal rights we should open our own doors and paying our own way. I have NO problems paying my own way. I insist actually.
magichands Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 I don't like traditional "woman values". I would never be a housewife and cook and clean either. That's what the maid is for. The point is - somebody's got to do it. You could share? Or there's the maid, in your case. I wish there were more ball-busters like you in the world, then I could just go along for the ride. You're lucky that your bf does not have any of the issues that you have.
lindya Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 I don't like traditional "woman values". I would never be a housewife and cook and clean either. That's what the maid is for. I'm not sure I could ever get completely used to the idea of someone cleaning up my mess. Even when I'm staying in a hotel, I make some effort to tidy up for the maid. What's wrong with cooking? Lots of men do it too - and lots of couples cook together. It's an enjoyable, very creative activity for many people. Not every aspect of taking care of yourself and your surroundings needs to be viewed as some form of drudgery. But back to the chivalry thing. Someone making a big show of opening a door for me can make me feel slightly self conscious and silly...but as long as it's not done in an OTT way then it's just a polite gesture. What makes me laugh is when I'm opening a door and a guy comes up behind and masterfully pushes it open with me, as if opening doors is some sort of onerous business that must be undertaken as a joint venture.
stoopid_guy Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 Questionable? Nope. More like outright wrong. With equal rights come equal responsibilities. It's that simple. Chivalry for me is simply a show of respect and courtesy, not saying one is better than the other. If I am a gentleman with her in public, she's more likely to realize that I'll be a gentleman with her in private. And equality is great, I'm a firm believer. However, the average man is larger and has considerably more brute strength than the average woman. It's more important that she trust us and knows we respect her than the other way around.
kulyok Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 Kulyok, I came where you are now. Do not forget, American and Russian mentality/cultures differe a lot. So dont generalize. Generalizing is seldom pleasant. I did use "sometimes", however. As for America and Russia, there are great guys here and there, it's just in Russia, they die younger. What's wrong with cooking? Lots of men do it too - and lots of couples cook together. It's an enjoyable, very creative activity for many people. Not every aspect of taking care of yourself and your surroundings needs to be viewed as some form of drudgery. I agree, cooking can be a great activity to some, and it's cool they enjoy it. I guess it goes like this: if someone likes to cook, they will do this for herself, and they might enjoy doing this in a relationship. But if I don't do it when living alone, ever, and do not like to do it, why cook when married? If my man wants to have a dinner, he is not an invalid: he can visit a supermarket or a restaurant, or cook for himself, for that matter. There are men who need to be served, sure, but they are not my cup of tea.
trebon Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 Chivalry is simply common decency. I was brought up to respect people so I hold doors open whenever its needed and I ALWAYS pay if I take my gf out (I take her out so its on me to treat her) Cooking and household stuff is split 50/50 because we both live there so its both our problem regardless of whose mess it is. In my experience women want a man who they know will take care of them and spoil them but they also want to know they can be themselves without and anoying puppy following them everwhere - its all about balance!
cutegirl Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 I'm not sure I could ever get completely used to the idea of someone cleaning up my mess. Even when I'm staying in a hotel, I make some effort to tidy up for the maid. What's wrong with cooking? Lots of men do it too - and lots of couples cook together. It's an enjoyable, very creative activity for many people. Not every aspect of taking care of yourself and your surroundings needs to be viewed as some form of drudgery. But back to the chivalry thing. Someone making a big show of opening a door for me can make me feel slightly self conscious and silly...but as long as it's not done in an OTT way then it's just a polite gesture. What makes me laugh is when I'm opening a door and a guy comes up behind and masterfully pushes it open with me, as if opening doors is some sort of onerous business that must be undertaken as a joint venture. There's nothing wrong with cooking, it's just not for me. Personally I am EXTREMELY comfortable with the maid doing everything. They don't live here... lol, they just come once every two weeks. I love having someone clean up after my mess. That's what they get paid to do and their professionals. Cleaning is just not something I like to do, and why should I do it when I don't have to? I only wish I had done earlier. For me, it's one of the best things in life to just to not have to think about cleaning or keeping clean. I don't think I could live without one now.
cutegirl Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 In my experience women want a man who they know will take care of them and spoil them but they also want to know they can be themselves without and anoying puppy following them everwhere - its all about balance! I don't like anyone to "take care" of me. I take care of myself. I don't need to be spoiled either. Everything I want I can buy it for myself. I spoil myself.
cutegirl Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 The point is - somebody's got to do it. You could share? Or there's the maid, in your case. I wish there were more ball-busters like you in the world, then I could just go along for the ride. You're lucky that your bf does not have any of the issues that you have. Somebody has to do it, but I don't believe in "traditional values" that imply that the woman is more suited to these type of things. I sure as hell am not gonna cater to someone else or clean up someone else's junk. We can either clean up our own junk or get someone else to do it. Of course I can fix myself something quick to eat, but I'm sure as hell not going to cook a gourmet meal and serve it to a man and clean up after him every single day, and always have dinner ready for him when he gets home... There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not for ME. If other women want to be housewives I really could care less. I am just saying for ME that's not something I would ever want to do. I don't judge other people though. If cooking and scrubbing floors make them happy I say go for it.
Fritz Posted August 3, 2006 Posted August 3, 2006 However, the average man is larger and has considerably more brute strength than the average woman. It's more important that she trust us and knows we respect her than the other way around. John Wayne Bobbit might disagree with you there Dudley DoRight. Respect is a two way street.
stoopid_guy Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 John Wayne Bobbit might disagree with you there Dudley DoRight. Respect is a two way street. What a prophetic name!!! But absolutely agree, respect and trust have to be both ways. I do think it's easier for the man to trust her than the other way around though (most of the time.)
allina Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 I heard someone recently utter that woman can either have equal rights, or chivalry, the expectation for both is questionable Men- Do you pay for dinner? First date? Second date? Sixth date?! How far do we want to take this liberated, independant women thing ladies? Would you be offended if you had to pay your own way? (obviously there is an exclusion if in the midst of a relationship- I am talking in terms of dating specifically). I went on a first date last night with a man who I asked out (I am not sure if this bares any relevance to the situation) and was completely prepared to pay my own way- he wouldn't hear of it . I must say I was pleased. This is my first real taste of the dating scene. Is this what is to be expected? I don't think chivalry is dead. When I go out with a man I expect him to open all doors for me, let me order first and all those small polite gestures. I don't think it has anything to do with not being liberated as a woman, it is a sign of respect. It's the same as me always opening the door for my mother, grandmother or any older woman. As for paying, I don't expect him to pay for everything, I don't have a problem with it but I gladly pitch in, or get a round of drinks. I partially feel that if I expect to earn as much as a man, I shouldn't have him pay for everything.
stoopid_guy Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 Why is that? Why is it easier for the man to trust than the woman? Because, quite frankly, a considerable number of my gender are jerks.
Starr1 Posted August 16, 2006 Posted August 16, 2006 Is chivalry dead? Nah... Is it less popular? Yep... In regards to my gf and I, I found it nice to open the door for her etc to show respect but when it came down to the wallet, that was an exception. Meals, she paid half, movies, she paid her own way, I'm not sure how she felt about it all but the way I see it, if I have a future with any gf I have and there really is love there, the size of my wallet and how I use it shouldn't matter. We still had great times so I doubt the willingness to open my wallet affected the relationship at all.
Charisma Posted August 16, 2006 Posted August 16, 2006 This is a great thread! I was in the same situation as Pink Amulet. I went out with a guy recently that I asked out and he paid for everything. I felt guilty because I was prepared to pay for it myself. I think we're living in different times today, women want their independence. Going dutch is quite common on dates, as I think some men could go broke paying for everything all the time. Many of us were raised with old-fashion values, where men should open doors, pay for the bills etc... I will admit I still love it when a guy opens a door or let's me order first, it just a sign of respect and yes being treated like a 'lady'. You'll find in the dating world that there are men who do it and men who don't. Sometimes it's related to the culture you grew up in or the values your parents instilled in you. Some men won't open doors for ladies because they're afraid of the backlash they could receive from women who are self-sufficient. Should there be a second date with this guy, I would pay for it this time around!.
CIE Posted August 16, 2006 Posted August 16, 2006 Chivalry is not dead in my opinion. Times change however and some people like their independance. I however have never been one to count my dollars. When I go out with friends ill pay rounds for them, get finger food for the table and the such. My friends are the same way and we share freely without counting down to the last cent. I would expect the same in a relationship, I'll always be offering to pay and probably will try to as often as possible, but I wont forbid it if my date decides to pick up some things I wont mind. When it comes to opening doors for her, seating her in the car and closing the door, letting her order first, or any other chevalrous things however I will always do. I do it to let her know i appreciate her company and respect her, and because it pleases me to. In return I dont expect her to be a housewife and take care of food, cleaning or kids by herself, I just expect her to take it as a gesture of appreciation. If a woman goes psycho on me because I open a door or anything like that it's really not someone I would be interested in having a relationship with. I'm all for equal rights, but equal goes both ways too.
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