Guest Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 I stopped signing in because I really think one of the other posters was my MM. His story wasn't exactly on point, but I just felt like it was him. And, then, possibly coincidence, he has not posted (or signed in as his old name) since we have been back together for month of June. The question is- we have done this roller coaster over and over and it is getting close to a season of the year when I see his family. This wasn't going on back then last year. I keep trying to get him to talk to me about how we are doing, etc. He'll just talk about other things, flirty things, but not seriously about how I am dealing with everything. I am sick of say "NC" and not sticking to it. I am sick of not saying "NC" when I mean it. I am sick of waiting for him to stop by when I love him more than the entire world- and the last thing I want is "NC" - I want him. That's not happening, but he gives me just enough hope that I don't want to give up. Anyway, what, what, what should I do? Do I push him on addressing my thoughts when there is nothing he is going to change? Do I just not say anything because it is pointless? Do I throw a fit? Do I let him go? And if so, how do you really, really do that- when you've failed so many times??? l love him and I don't know if I can do a real relationship anyway, I always screw those up......but that's no excuse... and everytime, all it takes is one little phone call, one little message, and all my resolve is melted like butter. No one else on earth gets to me like he does. I am so hopeless.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 It doesn't sound like you are ready for NC. "What should I do?" you ask. I think that the better question right now is "What can you live with?" You are very vulnerable right now from your comments. Maybe you should ease into NC. Go out with friends-don't answer MM calls or texts when you're out. Maybe you should press him on addressing your thoughts. His responses (or lack thereof) might help you stick to NC in the future. As for the rest of your post, I think that YOU need to take control of the situation. Don't let him go-YOU leave instead. From your own words, you are hopeless and can't do a real relationship. How do YOU screw it up? It takes two to nurture a relationship. Don't blame yourself, relationships aren't easy. It takes time and a little bit of luck to develop meaningful, successful relationships. I know it is easy for me to say to take control of the situation and leave him, which I don't ordinarily do, but you seem so unhappy. You need to take care of yourself. Do things that will make you happy. I know that you love your MM very much, but can you live with feeling this way when you are with him? Can being without him really be so much worse?
Sami_D Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 When you feel down enough, you will find the strength to go NC and stick to it. Even I did. It really is the only thing you can do.
Guest Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 Can being without him really be so much worse? VERY GOOD POINT. It is hard to see this when you are in the middle of thinking too much. I need to just do it. And sami- you are right- maybe i'm not ready yet, but I am getting close. What I haven't even give him the option of doing is getting out of the M or NC. I have seen others on here put down a date. Only problem is, I want it to be like 2 days away or just quit jerking me around- I don't really see the point in a deadline amonth away.
Sami_D Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 In all honesty, I don't see any point in making deadlines for others... only for oneself. A deadline to say, if he's not out of his M by a particular date, you're ending it. That makes sense, as long as you're not expecting it to 'work' in the sense of him actually making the decision and leaving by that date... it's very unlikely he will. No-one can (or indeed should, in my opinion) leave their own M, to someone else's deadline. It's a purely personal decision and process. Expecting a MM to do it is madness... men have a really bad time getting their act together to leave a M, for various reasons. Unless he absolutely has no choice in the matter of keeping the A going (i.e. you've ended it), then (with very few exceptions) he won't leave. If you want him to make a decision and leave his M, then going NC is the only way to proceed. But this will only work if he was going to do it at all, without you. Since it takes so long to achieve (we're talking months, usually), there is no guarantee for the MM that the OW will have waited.
yesmaybe Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 If you want him - I think NC is best for your case. What is the best way to do NC? For me, when I did it earlier this year, I started dating other men. It was tough at first. But it did get easier, and I started really enjoying myself. One day, I woke up and realized I didn't think of MM for a couple days. Point is, you need something to help you move on during NC. A lot of women are resistant to dating other men because "it wouldn't feel right." Actually - having an A with a married man who isn't going to commit doesn't feel right. I'm having an A, but I'm not in NC. However, the NC made him so serious about me, he suggested we go to counseling. Why? He told me that he is aware that second marriages usually don't work, and he wants us to work - so he's determined to change himself for the better so he doesn't bring his old demons into our relationship. He would have never made such a move had it not been for NC.
Sami_D Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 He told me that he is aware that second marriages usually don't work, and he wants us to work - so he's determined to change himself for the better so he doesn't bring his old demons into our relationship. That is such a good plan, and it shows he's committed to working on things to give your R a really good chance I would say (and this is the reason for the T/J, sorry, but it might put your MM's mind at rest a little), that there is a point of view that second marriages often 'don't work', or rather, end in D, because the people involved weren't afraid, when confronted with irreconcilable difficulties, to admit it and move on. That's a lot easier to do a second time, when you have been through the process before.
Blind Illusion Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 I . I am sick of waiting for him to stop by when I love him more than the entire world- and the last thing I want is "NC" - I want him. That's not happening, but he gives me just enough hope that I don't want to give up. Anyway, what, what, what should I do? Do I push him on addressing my thoughts when there is nothing he is going to change? Do I just not say anything because it is pointless? Do I throw a fit? Do I let him go? And if so, how do you really, really do that- when you've failed so many times??? l love him and I don't know if I can do a real relationship anyway, I always screw those up......but that's no excuse... and everytime, all it takes is one little phone call, one little message, and all my resolve is melted like butter. No one else on earth gets to me like he does. I am so hopeless. I can identify with a lot of what you say, epsecially the part about being given just enough hope. Sometimes, though, the reverse does work as well, as YESMAYBE pointed out in her post on this thread. When the little message doesn't seem to "win" you back, sometimes, I notice, they will "up the ante" ,so to speak, to make sure that they do. Then, I feel like I am playing some stupid game though, trying to get a better response like the MM was some kind of Pavlovian dog
yesmaybe Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 Men, oftentimes, are motivated by what we females would think of as crass-ly simple action (i.e. NC and dating other men). It's hard for us females to relate, because we would never "fall" for such ploys (women are socially more sophisticated). I've been in joint counseling with MM for about a month. Also, individual counseling. It has made a TREMENDOUS difference in our relationship. He started making a financial plan (when he goes to Europe, he will talk to his accountant about what a divorce will really look like), as well as looking for a place to live. I doubt he would have done so without the gentle prods of the therapist, who is actually encouraging him to have a real relationship with me. But again, it took NC with dating other men (I was nice and happy during this time), for him to wake up and smell the coffee.
yesmaybe Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 ...second marriages often 'don't work', or rather, end in D, because the people involved weren't afraid, when confronted with irreconcilable difficulties, to admit it and move on. That's a lot easier to do a second time, when you have been through the process before. Very true. Good point! I think he's also determined not to make the same mistakes with me as he did with his W. After all, if he's giving up the comfortable status quo, it better be for something totally improved - and that will only happen if he becomes a better person. I'm quite proud of him for making such progress. Also, I am less "pressed" for him, now that I know the extent of his baggage. My romantic notions have been fully brought to earth, and I now see just how hard it will be. Who knows...I am starting to have my doubts if this relationship can work.
Guest Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 That is such a good plan, and it shows he's committed to working on things to give your R a really good chance I would say (and this is the reason for the T/J, sorry, but it might put your MM's mind at rest a little), that there is a point of view that second marriages often 'don't work', or rather, end in D, because the people involved weren't afraid, when confronted with irreconcilable difficulties, to admit it and move on. That's a lot easier to do a second time, when you have been through the process before. I'll join in this T/J of my own thread (lol). I did the 2nd marriage thing- it only last 9 months- it was really easy for me to just "quit" because it was clear there were irreconcilable differences with him, his kids and his ex-W with me and my kids. Very easy to choose to protect your own kids from stuff with a step-dad than their own dad. Don't know why, but the choice was clear (just wish it was before I re-married so they could look like they had a normal life.....but I am over that). It does play into why the A to begin with though- at least it takes out of the realm of possibility that he can hurt my kids.
Guest Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 Very true. Good point! I think he's also determined not to make the same mistakes with me as he did with his W. After all, if he's giving up the comfortable status quo, it better be for something totally improved - and that will only happen if he becomes a better person. I'm quite proud of him for making such progress. Also, I am less "pressed" for him, now that I know the extent of his baggage. My romantic notions have been fully brought to earth, and I now see just how hard it will be. Who knows...I am starting to have my doubts if this relationship can work. WOW! Sounds like you are actually in a real relationship!!! And, we did go to very sparse contact for about 6 weeks and I dated 2 guys and was happy to some extent but they got way too serious (and of course didn't measure up to someone I only get to see the good side of) and in some twisted way pushed me to chase MM more. Not sure I can do that again anytime soon, but maybe NC and just getting to figure out how to get over my fear of commitment so that I can love him and be in a real relationship if I ever do "win"). And, last note, he did kind of respond to my anxiety today......twilight zone...wonder if he read yesterday's frustration...... I want him, but maybe I have to set him free to ever have a chance, you are right, why leave when get best of both worlds right now.
yesmaybe Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 If you want him - you have to be a tough bitch. Plain and simple. MM do not respond well to nice, accomodating OW. Instead, be the most bodacious person you can be, and make it clear that you don't need him and he should be thankful you're even paying any attention to him. With my MM, when I started dating others, I just stopped talking to him or emailing him. When he tried to touch me, I'd shrink away with a blank stare. He was quite shocked and confused. I thought to myself, "he's not good enough for me. What a f*ing presumptuous a**h***." Almost as if he is some loser who keeps trying to get my phone number. After 2 weeks, he started to crawl back to me. But I didn't fall for his nice behavior. I treated him with the same "prove you're good enough for me" attitude for 3 months (we've had our A for about 6 months). If you start becoming nice again too soon - he will take you for granted. His change in behavior was amazing. He started treating me like a real prize - constantly calling, emailing, paying me massive attention, going out of his way to spend time with me. Other people remarked how much he had changed in general, and people started joking how "the boss is being handled by that girl." (he is the head of my office) And he didn't care - he only cared about my reaction. I told him, flat out, "I have a gorgeous French guy waiting for me - the only way you're worth my time is if you start your divorce. Otherwise...see ya." Suffice to say, not long afterwards, he suggested we go to counseling together and then started making plans for our future. So, the moral of the story - make yourself a scarce commodity. Play up the benefits of an exclusive relationship with you (I can be extremely loving). And be the type of person any man would kill dragons for. And don't be afraid to be attractive to other men!
Guest Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 If you want him - you have to be a tough bitch. Plain and simple. MM do not respond well to nice, accomodating OW. Instead, be the most bodacious person you can be, and make it clear that you don't need him and he should be thankful you're even paying any attention to him. With my MM, when I started dating others, I just stopped talking to him or emailing him. When he tried to touch me, I'd shrink away with a blank stare. He was quite shocked and confused. I thought to myself, "he's not good enough for me. What a f*ing presumptuous a**h***." Almost as if he is some loser who keeps trying to get my phone number. After 2 weeks, he started to crawl back to me. But I didn't fall for his nice behavior. I treated him with the same "prove you're good enough for me" attitude for 3 months (we've had our A for about 6 months). If you start becoming nice again too soon - he will take you for granted. His change in behavior was amazing. He started treating me like a real prize - constantly calling, emailing, paying me massive attention, going out of his way to spend time with me. Other people remarked how much he had changed in general, and people started joking how "the boss is being handled by that girl." (he is the head of my office) And he didn't care - he only cared about my reaction. I told him, flat out, "I have a gorgeous French guy waiting for me - the only way you're worth my time is if you start your divorce. Otherwise...see ya." Suffice to say, not long afterwards, he suggested we go to counseling together and then started making plans for our future. So, the moral of the story - make yourself a scarce commodity. Play up the benefits of an exclusive relationship with you (I can be extremely loving). And be the type of person any man would kill dragons for. And don't be afraid to be attractive to other men! This is very empowering to read. And it's not even a game- it's true. we do deserve to be and should expect to be treated very well. Even if it doesn't turn out as well, sounds so much like what I should demand because I am worth more than this. Thank yoU!
Sami_D Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 This is very empowering to read. And it's not even a game- it's true. we do deserve to be and should expect to be treated very well. Even if it doesn't turn out as well, sounds so much like what I should demand because I am worth more than this. Thank yoU! Don't forget to read this, while we're on the subject: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t68968/
yesmaybe Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 Sami_D...I love that post by OldEurope! I would like to add, however, that my A breaks many of her rules (especially because he had absolutely no intention of leaving his wife...until I did the NC-dating-other-guys). Point is...every A is different. Don't feel discouraged if your doesn't fit in with other successful ones. If you really want your man, go with your instincts first.
stoopid_guy Posted July 11, 2006 Posted July 11, 2006 Men, oftentimes, are motivated by what we females would think of as crass-ly simple action (i.e. NC and dating other men). It's hard for us females to relate, because we would never "fall" for such ploys (women are socially more sophisticated). Very true. And most of us like/respect ladies who can be "tough bitches" when the situation calls for it, it makes your "sweet" mode seem all the sweeter.
Guest Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 Men, oftentimes, are motivated by what we females would think of as crass-ly simple action (i.e. NC and dating other men). It's hard for us females to relate, because we would never "fall" for such ploys (women are socially more sophisticated). Very true. And most of us like/respect ladies who can be "tough bitches" when the situation calls for it, it makes your "sweet" mode seem all the sweeter. This is helping- that other thread (about quit whining) and the search for Joe Smooth (explains others in my life that led me to run scared of a real relationship) AND not listening to country music for a week! Nobody can "make me feel" this bad (the depth of the bad is as deep as the depth of the good!) if I have confidence in my own worth. We still talk, but it isn't having the same effect, I am starting to re-gain control. Thanks everyone!! I'm on a road in the right direction anyway.
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