What do OW/M and BS have in common?

[sylviaguardian]

There have been lots of threads here on 'How is the OW different to the MW'? but I wanted to put forward a different viewpoint. I am a BS but have never felt out of place here. Why? Well, I think many BS and OW have a lot in common and that is that we make excuses and accept second-best.

 

My husband had an affair (broke my heart) even although he knew that my ex-partner of 6 years had had an affair and also broken my heart. i spent many nights asking myself "Is it me?" "Did I do something wrong?" "Am I really very unattractive?". I couldn't understand it because I am moderately attractive, slim, not the jealous type, popular, intelligent etc etc.

 

it's only recently that I have realised that YES it is me! But not for the reasons I think. It's because I in every relationship I have had, I have effectively ignored the red flags (subtle though they were), made excuses, minimised, and basically sent out the message that I will put up with a hell of a lot. Sound familiar?

 

If I were single ( and I might be yet), these would be my new dating rules:

 

If he says he will call and doesn't call on that day - be wary!

no to: married men, men who talk about their ex or anyone who admits to cheating in the past

- first thing he lies about - he's out!

 

What do you gals think about this?

 

Sylvia

[movinon05]

it's only recently that I have realised that YES it is me! But not for the reasons I think. It's because I in every relationship I have had, I have effectively ignored the red flags (subtle though they were), made excuses, minimised, and basically sent out the message that I will put up with a hell of a lot. Sound familiar?

 

This is exactly the way I have been all my life. Even in my marriage.

 

If I were single ( and I might be yet), these would be my new dating rules:

 

If he says he will call and doesn't call on that day - be wary!

no to: married men, men who talk about their ex or anyone who admits to cheating in the past

- first thing he lies about - he's out!

 

What do you gals think about this?

 

Now that I'm dating again, I've learned all the warning signs. There's more than just what you posted. The only thing I have going for me is that I am more aware now and I can honestly say I will NEVER (didn't I say never say never??) be in a relationship with anyone who has any kind of comittment to someone else. Its been too painful the first time around. Why the hell would I want to go through THIS again?

[RealityCheck]

There have been lots of threads here on 'How is the OW different to the MW'? but I wanted to put forward a different viewpoint. I am a BS but have never felt out of place here. Why? Well, I think many BS and OW have a lot in common and that is that we make excuses and accept second-best.

 

My husband had an affair (broke my heart) even although he knew that my ex-partner of 6 years had had an affair and also broken my heart. i spent many nights asking myself "Is it me?" "Did I do something wrong?" "Am I really very unattractive?". I couldn't understand it because I am moderately attractive, slim, not the jealous type, popular, intelligent etc etc.

 

it's only recently that I have realised that YES it is me! But not for the reasons I think. It's because I in every relationship I have had, I have effectively ignored the red flags (subtle though they were), made excuses, minimised, and basically sent out the message that I will put up with a hell of a lot. Sound familiar?

 

If I were single ( and I might be yet), these would be my new dating rules:

 

If he says he will call and doesn't call on that day - be wary!

no to: married men, men who talk about their ex or anyone who admits to cheating in the past

- first thing he lies about - he's out!

 

What do you gals think about this?

 

Sylvia

 

For me, I have been a BS and an OW, but in between have had a few long term relationships in terms of 2 - 4 years. Every one has been cut from a different cloth. None were the same. Some showed red flags, some didn't!

 

The ones that showed the red flags, yes I ignored for one reason or another. I know it was because I THOUGHT I could ACCEPT these ways. Not so much CHANGE, but accept. As the relationship progressed, my thoughts changed.

 

The men that didn't show red flags, I guess I was not ready at that time in my life to make the committment.

 

I did come to realize that I fell in love more with the "idea" of who they were than the actual person.

 

I don't get hard on myself because I'm learning with each experience. What I thought felt right, never really was meant for me.

 

I know that relationships take committment and hard work. But one thing I do know, as each phase a relationship goes through, I want my partner to grow in the relationship with me. Not behind me, not in front of me, but right beside me.

 

Will I ever come to a place of actually knowing? I am hopeful.

 

Yes, I would agree with rules, but also the same "standard".

[UnknowingOW]

Good topic

 

Do we really go out and look for sub-par qualities in men? I'm really beginning to ask myself that. Or is that we have a sticker attached to our foreheads say..."go ahead and hurt me...I can take it."

 

I have rules regarding dating.

 

I had just finished college at the age of 36 and divorced for 3-years. I moved to the other end of the state for training in my job, cried like hell because I was away from friends and family, and spent a lot of time either at work, on the phone with friends and family, or hangout by the pool at my appartment complex...where I met my MM. It was funny the night before I met him I had written in my journal, that I was doing everything right in my life so something good would eventually happen.

 

The rules of dating for me:

• Don't get involved with men you think are gay or bi-sexual
  
• Don't get involved with married men
  
• NEVER cheat on a girlfriend or family member with their spouse (ALWAYS A GOLDEN RULE for happiness)
  
• Don't get involved with men who are into drugs or acholics
  
• Don't get involved with men who are liars
  
• Don't get involved with men who cheat
  
• Don't get involved with abusive men
  
• Don't get involved with an emotionally unavailable man

In my past, I have been involved with every type with the exception the MM or friends or family's spouses. So I had a good idea that I needed someone who fit my rules of dating...until, the MM comes into my life and proclaims he too is divorced. Whatta nice guy too...and I mean that seriously.

 

And here I am now...I've unknowningly broken one of my rules...the MM. Would never have done it had I known he was married. As I told him on D-day, this is not who I am. I have been the BS and could not do that to someone else intentionally or unintentionally.

 

My rules haven't change. They are the same. Although I can now add another point

• Don't get involved with a Commitment Phobic man or never-been married male.

Whether this makes what the BS OW/M have in common I don't know. What I do know is:

• Both parties are involved with something out of their control.
  
• Both parties hate that they are riding the emotional rollercoaster.
  
• Both parties love the same person.
  
• Both parties want the person they love to make a decision.
  
• Both parties hopes and prays it is them.
  
• Both parties living with the guilt, shame, despair, fear, and anger.
  
• Somebody is going to get hurt and it's most likely the OW/M.

Those are my thoughts of commonality.

[bunset]

While you have a good point about cheating, lying and emotionally unavailable.. I think we have a problem with never.

Remember when he was not cheating, lying or emotionally unavailable???

C'mon, I know you do...

 

Things change, people change, the universe changes!

 

"Move away from hoping, wishing, praying and begging for the right person or people to show up in your life. Know that this is a universe that works on energy and attraction. Remind yourself that you have the power to attract the right people to assist you with any desire as long as you are able to shift from ego-driven energy to match up with the all-providing Source of intention... Intending ideal people and divine partners begins with knowing in your heart that it's not only a possibility, but a certainty."

-Wayne Dyer The Power of Intention Ch12

[Chump64]

My (formerly cheating) husband has so many great qualities, seriously. I looked for someone totally unlike all the men I knew growing up, esp. my dad. He is responsible, kind, funny as hell, very smart, a superb father, nice looking, etc. His infidelity completely blindsided me and everyone else who knows him, and who knows about it. I swear to god it would kill his mother if she knew about it. She would keel over from a heart attack. And she is a healthy woman.

 

I take no blame for what he did, or for the fact that I chose a man who ultimately ended up being very flawed. I take blame for stuff that may have been wrong in our marriage. But then again, if he didn't tell me stuff was wrong, how could I have known?

 

You can't pick someone who won't cheat. Almost everyone has the capacity to cheat, some more than others. There aren't always red flags or warnings.

 

It bothers me to see people say things like, "I am attractive, smart and slim so I don't know why he cheated." Those are not reasons why men cheat. The reasons why they cheat are so complicated and cheating always says more about the cheater than the betrayed spouse. The biggest common denominators, from what I've seen and read about so far, are emotional retardation / inability to communicate effectively. This is very common for men and boys in our society. That gives those of us who are raising boys a lot to think about.

 

I am a smart and confident person, two things that attracted my husband and two things he has consistently LOVED about me. His OW was needy, clingy, insecure and medicre, on the smart scale. Figure that one out!

[RealityCheck]

While you have a good point about cheating, lying and emotionally unavailable.. I think we have a problem with never.

Remember when he was not cheating, lying or emotionally unavailable???

C'mon, I know you do...

 

Things change, people change, the universe changes!

 

"Move away from hoping, wishing, praying and begging for the right person or people to show up in your life. Know that this is a universe that works on energy and attraction. Remind yourself that you have the power to attract the right people to assist you with any desire as long as you are able to shift from ego-driven energy to match up with the all-providing Source of intention... Intending ideal people and divine partners begins with knowing in your heart that it's not only a possibility, but a certainty."

-Wayne Dyer The Power of Intention Ch12

 

You know, I've been reading your posts and I gotta tell ya, you are so in my head space.

 

I just don't explain it on the energy vibration level, because some people have a difficult time wrapping their brains around the whole Universal concept.

 

I really am enjoying your ride! Awesome!

 

Here have a couple bunnies..... :bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

[UnknowingOW]

While you have a good point about cheating, lying and emotionally unavailable.. I think we have a problem with never.

Remember when he was not cheating, lying or emotionally unavailable???

C'mon, I know you do...

 

Things change, people change, the universe changes!

 

"Move away from hoping, wishing, praying and begging for the right person or people to show up in your life. Know that this is a universe that works on energy and attraction. Remind yourself that you have the power to attract the right people to assist you with any desire as long as you are able to shift from ego-driven energy to match up with the all-providing Source of intention... Intending ideal people and divine partners begins with knowing in your heart that it's not only a possibility, but a certainty."

-Wayne Dyer The Power of Intention Ch12

 

Well stated!

[Blind Illusion]

 

 

 

It bothers me to see people say things like, "I am attractive, smart and slim so I don't know why he cheated." Those are not reasons why men cheat. The reasons why they cheat are so complicated and cheating always says more about the cheater than the betrayed spouse. The biggest common denominators, from what I've seen and read about so far, are emotional retardation / inability to communicate effectively. This is very common for men and boys in our society. That gives those of us who are raising boys a lot to think about.

 

This has always bothered me also and I know that these "qualifications" don't exactly affairproof a marriage.

 

As far as Sylvia's original post question, I am wondering if her original premise is correct. Maybe it's just human tendency to want to believe someone that we do give the party (be it a wayward spouse or a married lover) the benefit of the doubt. It could boil down to just how many times we do that? Not sure.

[StrivingtoSucceed]

Hmm. Interesting thought. In all other previous relationships there were red flags I ignored, or with my ex-H, thought he would change. With my current marriage, there weren't any red flags and he was the total opposite of every other man I had been with. In fact, all my friends figured we wouldn't last because we were total opposites, I'm an extrovert - he an introvert, etc., etc.

 

There weren't any signs at all when the relationship started, or early on in the marriage that would have alerted me to the fact that he would have hurt me with an A, or really any other way either.

 

That in-itself is what scares me sometimes and maybe what most of us have in common, the thought that ... is my ability to judge another person so off that the only men/women I have ever found end up hurting me?

 

However, whenever that thought does enter my head, I realize that in the case of my H, he was battling demons that I can't even imagine and he was desperately trying to find a way to deal with his reality. The result from his EA for him was that he realized he can't change his reality.

 

The result of his EA for me .... Even though we are better than we were before EA, we're happy, he's happy, I'm happy, I know that he will never do this again, he knows he will never go there again, etc., etc., etc., ... unfortunately the thought still enters my mind every once in awhile ... is my judgement so off .....

[movinon05]

The result of his EA for me .... Even though we are better than we were before EA, we're happy, he's happy, I'm happy, I know that he will never do this again, he knows he will never go there again, etc., etc., etc., ... unfortunately the thought still enters my mind every once in awhile ... is my judgement so off .....

 

You know, I don't think its about whether our judgment is on or off, about any type of thing that might come up in a relationship or marriage. We can only deal with our present reality and learn from the past. I used to beat myself up that I didn't see the warnings signs in my exH before we married. And this has nothing to do with cheating or affairs. He exhibited traits that I should have picked up on. But I was just too young at the time to realize these things. My very best friend (for almost 20 yrs at the time I got married) didn't tell me until I got a divorce that she was not all that happy that I was marrying my H. She didn't like certain things he said and did, and she didn't think he respected me enough, but she never said a word til it was over. She saw it. Why didn't I? I've since stopped beating myself up over that scenario and learned from it and focused on my reality and what I could control. We have to learn just like the prayer, to accept the things we cannot change, have the courage to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[bunset]

You know, I've been reading your posts and I gotta tell ya, you are so in my head space.

 

I just don't explain it on the energy vibration level, because some people have a difficult time wrapping their brains around the whole Universal concept.

 

I really am enjoying your ride! Awesome!

 

Here have a couple bunnies..... :bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

RC,

The bunnies are awesome! (they're my mascots, ya know)

Thanks for the cheer.

Anyway... as a clearly failing spouse, I can relate to this topic.

Not that I blame it 100% on any ONE thing.

 

We all get what we need when we need it, even if we hate it!

It IS up to us to learn from it.

Maybe my MM and his W can figure it out and get on with their marriage, that much better off.

At least if I can't have him... I'll get on with what I need to do, too.

I know I'll have more as days progress. Some up, some down.

Maybe I'll be here a while. I know I found you (pl.) here, when I needed it.

Let's all keep learning and growing.

[StrivingtoSucceed]

We have to learn just like the prayer, to accept the things we cannot change, have the courage to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

Very good advice and one that I agree with, thank you, MO. Sometimes though (at least on my part) jealousy rears it's ugly little head and it is pretty hard to distinguish between the acception, the courage and the wisdom. Always though, my reasoning returns and I know that the past is the past. Things are great, we're both happy and in love. I guess that leaves me to wonder, when does the "sometimes" actually go away? Or, is that "sometimes" just being a normal human? Make sense?

[RealityCheck]

RC,

The bunnies are awesome! (they're my mascots, ya know)

Thanks for the cheer.

Anyway... as a clearly failing spouse, I can relate to this topic.

Not that I blame it 100% on any ONE thing.

 

We all get what we need when we need it, even if we hate it!

It IS up to us to learn from it.

Maybe my MM and his W can figure it out and get on with their marriage, that much better off.

At least if I can't have him... I'll get on with what I need to do, too.

I know I'll have more as days progress. Some up, some down.

Maybe I'll be here a while. I know I found you (pl.) here, when I needed it.

Let's all keep learning and growing.

 

Love your attitude! Such a refreshing breath of air!

 

I love that line!

"We all get what we need, when we need it, even if we hate it!"

 

I so agree! There is always something in an experience to learn from!

"It is, what it is"

Granted, we don't always see it when we are smack in the middle of it! But eventually we do get it!

 

Now hop along and spread your great views with others! :bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

[movinon05]

Very good advice and one that I agree with, thank you, MO. Sometimes though (at least on my part) jealousy rears it's ugly little head and it is pretty hard to distinguish between the acception, the courage and the wisdom. Always though, my reasoning returns and I know that the past is the past. Things are great, we're both happy and in love. I guess that leaves me to wonder, when does the "sometimes" actually go away? Or, is that "sometimes" just being a normal human? Make sense?

 

What matters is you're happy (hopefully most of the time) and you're human all the time.

[Sami_D]

Don't be afraid to state your needs, and if he doesn't meet them, walk away. This of course requires that you know yourself enough to know what your needs are, and recognise when they're not being met. Many of your needs you can meet yourself; another person should merely ADD to an already full life. If you are not meeting most of your own needs without a man (i.e. you feel you need a man to make you feel good about life and yourself), you need to work on yourself first before getting involved with anyone. Running straight from one disastrous relationship into someone else's arms is almost always a mistake, a diversion, and wasting time on life's journey.

 

Every young woman should learn about Narcissists, controlling people, emotionally abusive people and verbal abuse. Knowing these things would have saved me pain in no less than THREE of my previous relationships, including the last, eventually physically abusive one (not MM, but the one 2 years before I met him), after which I began researching what he hell had happened to me (why I allowed it to happen) and found some useful information:

 

 

(some of you might like, for example, to check out the chapter on 'Why Does the Narcissist Keep Coming Back?', which is very pertinent to these MM who can't walk away but keep dropping off little 'presents', who can't accept your desire for him not to turn up unannounced, who decide they really need to be on your shift, who can't stick to NC. THIS is NOT about love, but about something far different. And It should tell you that these men are to be Avoided at all Costs)

 

If you can't recognise the red flags of this behaviour, you are in potential trouble. Check out the 'early warning signs' listed on these sites. Go through some of the stories. I see evidence of many of these behaviours in almost ALL the MM who are discussed on this board. To me, it's not so much the fact they're married that is causing problems (plenty of people have affairs and don't end up at LS), it's a combination of controlling men, and women who have no idea how to handle themselves. (jmho)

 

Check yourself out. Ask yourself why you're falling into these situations. Ask yourself why you're accepting so little from a man, while expecting/needing so much (isn't THAT what the pain is about?). Something in your past, upbringing, the relationships you see around you and accept as normal? What 'truths' (LIES) are you accepting about yourself, him, relationships and how the world works that are leading you into these situations? What are your expectations in life, in relationships? Are you a self-fulfilling prophesy?

 

Get yourself some therapy. Or if you can't afford that or think you can do without it, get out some books not on 'being a bitch', but on how to be a happy, fulfilled person who doesn't NEED to ACT in a certain way, because it will come NATURALLY along with your new-found self-understanding (including knowing all about your weaknesses, and how to overcome them), self-belief, natural contentment and strength. BELIEVE that that can happen. Know that it is necessary before you even THINK of getting involved with someone else.

 

Look up co-dependency:

 

Especially this section:

 

Weak Boundaries:

 

Codependents frequently:

1. Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.

2. Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.

3. Let others hurt them.

4. Keep letting others hurt them.

5. Wonder why they hurt so badly.

6. Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.

7. Finally get angry.

8. Become totally intolerant.

 

Don't blame HIM. You and he made this mess together, and you must take responsibility for this, and for your well-being and your future. Stop being weak. If a man treats you badly and keeps on doing it despite your 'best efforts' to explain how his behaviour is affecting you, take your bloodied head away from the wall and WALK AWAY.

 

Quit being weak. You only have ONE life. Are you going to sit there and blame someone else because it's not working out?

[sylviaguardian]

So much interesting stuff here...and I really like the quote about knowing that you can have the power to attract the right people. I have had plenty of time to review my past and realise that if I'd put my foot down in the face of certain behaviours, that one of two things would have happened. Either the person I was with at the time would have thought "This girl is too much trouble for me, time to leave", or they would have realised that I wasn't a pushover and that they had better smarten up their act. I guess I was so scared of them leaving that I never made a fuss. I read some of the links above and some of that rings true e.g. saying you would never accept something, then gradually accepting it. My ex-partner was a liar and a cheat so I became paranoid and jealous (with reason). When I met h, I decided there was no way that he was going to call me jealous so I didn't mind when we went to parties etc and he just went off and chatted to other women etc. Sure, I never looked jealous but it gave him the message that it was ok to be in a relationship but not look like he wasn't. There were so many little things like that.

 

Is this the same with OW? You don't like the situation you're in but you're scared to challenge it because it might mean the end? Finding out about my husband's affair was the start of me standing up for myself. If he had ever shown any indecision in what he wanted to do I wouldn't have tolerated it. But the problem is that I constantly wonder if staying with him, knowing what I know, is just repeating the pattern of putting up with sh*t.

 

I know that there aren't any 'knights in shining armour' out there. Chump said that everyone has the potential to cheat. I don't know about that one... I have never cheated on anyone in a relationship. I think it boils down to personal feelings on being 'sneaky'. Personally I hate sneakiness whether it is in a business setting, relationship or card games even! There must be some people out there who choose to 'do the right thing'. Otherwise what is the point...?!

 

S

[Sami_D]

Is this the same with OW? You don't like the situation you're in but you're scared to challenge it because it might mean the end?

 

Finding out about my husband's affair was the start of me standing up for myself. If he had ever shown any indecision in what he wanted to do I wouldn't have tolerated it. But the problem is that I constantly wonder if staying with him, knowing what I know, is just repeating the pattern of putting up with sh*t.

 

Yes, that is where I see the similarities too.

[zarathustra]

Is this the same with OW? You don't like the situation you're in but you're scared to challenge it because it might mean the end? Finding out about my husband's affair was the start of me standing up for myself. If he had ever shown any indecision in what he wanted to do I wouldn't have tolerated it. But the problem is that I constantly wonder if staying with him, knowing what I know, is just repeating the pattern of putting up with sh*t.

 

I am at a point where I'm not afraid of things ending. When my H and were separated the first time and when my xMM and I were split up, I had the time to figure out what went wrong. What I did to contribute to where I am today and what it was was that I was not sticking up for myself and looking out for my best interest.

 

I don't know if my xMM's wife and I are at all similar. I hear she is really nice. From what I gather though from things he has said about his home situation and what his brother has said of his wife is that he wife thinks that she knows better. Maybe that's our similarity, except that what I think is the right thing to do in some areas would likely be different than what she thinks about the same topic. But hey, I don't know her from a hole in the ground... so I can't say from personal experience. I know that she has judged me harshly (understandably so) but I don't have that in me to do. I guess having this experience has softened me quite a bit.

[silktricks]

I think it's possible that one of things that make OW and BS similar is the need for excitement, or at least lack of boredom. The men I have chosen to be with throughout my life have been extremely individual people. Very strong-willed - which is what I wanted, as I am very strong-willed. They have usually been the men in the room that all eyes turned to when they walked in, not necessarily because they are so beautiful, but just because they have such PRESENCE.

 

An affair, if nothing else, certainly would get the adrenaline going. I'm not saying that love isn't there, but that excitement is there as well. My husband can get my blood boiling, my toes tingling, my scalp tightening just by touching my hand - and we've been together for a llllooonnngg time. I would never be satisfied by less.

 

I don't believe that I am all that accepting of bad behavior. I may (or may not) be more forgiving than some are, simply because I recognize my own need for forgiveness. I'm not afraid of being alone, nor am I afraid of being close.

 

Ask yourself why you're accepting so little from a man, while expecting/needing so much (isn't THAT what the pain is about?).

I don't think that is what the pain is about, at least not for me. My expectations have been that the man in my life be honest. I don't think that's too much to ask. I think it's what every one of us deserve.

[newbby]

When I met h, I decided there was no way that he was going to call me jealous so I didn't mind when we went to parties etc and he just went off and chatted to other women etc. Sure, I never looked jealous but it gave him the message that it was ok to be in a relationship but not look like he wasn't. There were so many little things like that.

i think you are taking too much responsibility for this situation. ok, so we read time and again that women are the ones who set the boundaries in relationships, but it doesnt mean it is our fault if men are irresponsible.

possibly something that ow & mw have in common is taking too much responsibility for the relationship!

 

Is this the same with OW? You don't like the situation you're in but you're scared to challenge it because it might mean the end?

i think this is often true. you know people give the excellent advice of "say you will only have a relationship with him when he is divorced...", i mean yes of course, it makes logical sense, but seems a very bold and demanding way of beginning a relationship in many ways. of course it would actually gain you more respect, but i think most women would feel rather too unconfident to do this in a relationship.

Finding out about my husband's affair was the start of me standing up for myself. If he had ever shown any indecision in what he wanted to do I wouldn't have tolerated it. But the problem is that I constantly wonder if staying with him, knowing what I know, is just repeating the pattern of putting up with sh*t.

treat it as a new relationship, and if s*** happens deal with it in your new way.

bunset gave some excellent advice here and i would like too add this quote:

 

Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your needs? - Marcus Aurelius

I know that there aren't any 'knights in shining armour' out there. Chump said that everyone has the potential to cheat. I don't know about that one... I have never cheated on anyone in a relationship. I think it boils down to personal feelings on being 'sneaky'. Personally I hate sneakiness whether it is in a business setting, relationship or card games even!

i hate sneakiness too, and am not sneaky by nature, and yet i was the ow. it didnt sit well with me, and caused me much anxiety, but i still did it. i have my reasons, but so does everyone, cheaters, ow.

There must be some people out there who choose to 'do the right thing'. Otherwise what is the point...?!

i think people generally do the best they can do at the time, but unless they have been really working on themselves, that best is sometimes poor. by working on themselves i mean anything that gets them beyond personal limitation. most people though, dont even know how.