a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Ok before you all mess your britches (Southern lingo I am attempting to go native) A4A is not thinking of cheating...... far far from my mind. The reason I post this is wondering at what point is it ok for a spouse to say...... "I have tried and tried but he or she does not give me what I want, so time to get fulfilled by another". I see different sides of this from different posters..... No sex is one. The famous ENs not being fulfilled another. Lack of passion another. But if the cheater has attempted to face and fix the problem in a frank and honest manner for quite a bit of time....... can you blame the cheater? I know two people who are on both ends of this..... one being cheated on that is basically married to a ass of a man, and a cheating man who is married to a witch of a woman. I cannot see why the first parties H would cheat as he has it made with his wife..... the perfect wife by most standards, he even brags about how great she is...... the latter H cheats from time to time but is totally neglected and constantly bitched at by his wife, used by her financially. I also think it is odd how some people are shocked that their SO is cheating on them after attempts have been made to communicate needs and to fix the marriage....... "I never saw it coming, she/he just left me for another"........even after the long talks but change never happened in the R. So who is to blame for cheating???
SmoochieFace Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 The reason I post this is wondering at what point is it ok for a spouse to say...... "I have tried and tried but he or she does not give me what I want, so time to get fulfilled by another". Nothing wrong with wanting to be fulfilled HOWEVER seeking that fulfillment from another person while still married is wrong. If people want to find xxx elsewhere then do the right thing and get divorced first.
Outcast Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 If people are so unfulfilled in a marriage, what's the point of staying married? They are too cowardly/lazy to take the necessary step, I'm guessing.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 If people are so unfulfilled in a marriage, what's the point of staying married? They are too cowardly/lazy to take the necessary step, I'm guessing. When kids and a business are involved it makes it much harder to just be brave and divorce. I can see both views..... to blame and to not blame the cheater.
SoleMate Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 But if the cheater has attempted to face and fix the problem in a frank and honest manner for quite a bit of time....... can you blame the cheater? I can't, even though I know I am supposed to. Some marital failures get much worse press than others. You can fail - spefctacularly! - on all of the following without much flak from society: * Attention * Affection * Interest in other person's life * Pulling fair share of workload * Praise * Loyalty * Kindness * Listening * Keeping promises * Keeping in shape * Maintaining mental health But if you go and get that attention elsewhere, you're a big creep.
Becoming Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Oh, crap, a4a, I almost did mess in my pants when I saw your post. Given some of the things said in the past I thought maybe . . . (I've been gone and missed your serious little monkey face). My opinion: vows are sacred. If things are really that bad, it's time to get out of the marriage and then screw around to your heart's content . . . unless there are really extenuating circumstances and both marriage partners agree to it. But that's a bizarre possibility to me.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 Oh, crap, a4a, I almost did mess in my pants when I saw your post. Given some of the things said in the past I thought maybe . . . (I've been gone and missed your serious little monkey face). My opinion: vows are sacred. If things are really that bad, it's time to get out of the marriage and then screw around to your heart's content . . . unless there are really extenuating circumstances and both marriage partners agree to it. But that's a bizarre possibility to me. LOL........ nah I have too much self respect to cheat. I would at least move out before even going hunting for another. I just cannot get angry at my male friend for cheating on his troll of a wife. I know it is wrong.... but I can see why he won't leave her because of the kids needs and the business..... for some reason it bothers me because I really like this guy but I hate what he is doing but I can see why he is doing it. Not to mention the dumbass my H works with and his wife is having a coworker affair that is so so obvious but he is in denial about it..... that one really baffles me. I think I need to move and find some friends that don't cheat. It is starting to seem so normal to me now..... no big deal....so what they all cheat, right?
Milf629 Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 by FAR the cheater...vows? commitment? for better of for worse???? hello! LEAVE THE MARRIAGE IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY BEFORE YOU HOOK UP WITH SOMEONE ELSE! and and and view points are ALWAYS a question of angles. what if "troll of a wife" puts up with a whole lot of s*** from "perfect to her husband" would he tell you if he is mentally/verbally abusive behind closed doors? by those standards, I am a lunatic, does that mean my H had the RIGHT to cheat?
blind_otter Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I think a s***ty partner gives you the right to leave the relationship. Nothing else. I know that children, or owning businesses together can make it difficult to extricate yourself from the relationship, but I personally would make a lot of sacrifices to have a fulfilling life. And lord knows if they are bitchy enough to drive you to an extracurricular relationship, if you do have joint business ventures, then if they discover the cheating then they could f*** you hardcore. Because hey, joint business ventures do require trust, and compromise, and when you mix private relationships with business, then you kind of end up risking both when you mess around on one or the other.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 by FAR the cheater...vows? commitment? for better of for worse???? hello! LEAVE THE MARRIAGE IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY BEFORE YOU HOOK UP WITH SOMEONE ELSE! That is easy to say unless you are living it or close to it. The man I mentioned is married to a true witch. She will not try to get help, states in front of company that he is only good for a paycheck and was a sperm donor, if he ever tried to leave she would destroy him and he would never see his kids...... she is obese and will not attempt to even comb her hair,(brillo head) she lies constantly, and he gives her anything she wants, (probably to just attempt to find some peace at home). What he is doing is not right but I can certainly understand why he wants affection from another woman. He will never get it from her........ and where the hell is she living up to her vows and commitment for him? It is an abusive relationship he stays so he can continue to provide for his kids and live a family life that he did take vows to do...... believe me if it was not for the kids that she nagged him to have a 3rd not long ago.... he would have left for sure. My H has known him for over 30 years and his wife for over 15...... so we do know both sides as she has used me and my H to rant about him.....
grateful Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 That is easy to say unless you are living it or close to it. The man I mentioned is married to a true witch. She will not try to get help, states in front of company that he is only good for a paycheck and was a sperm donor, if he ever tried to leave she would destroy him and he would never see his kids...... she is obese and will not attempt to even comb her hair,(brillo head) she lies constantly, and he gives her anything she wants, (probably to just attempt to find some peace at home). What he is doing is not right but I can certainly understand why he wants affection from another woman. He will never get it from her........ and where the hell is she living up to her vows and commitment for him? It is an abusive relationship he stays so he can continue to provide for his kids and live a family life that he did take vows to do...... believe me if it was not for the kids that she nagged him to have a 3rd not long ago.... he would have left for sure. My H has known him for over 30 years and his wife for over 15...... so we do know both sides as she has used me and my H to rant about him..... He is not doing the kids any favors by staying. He is not living a "family life" but he is subjecting them to an abusive relationship as well as showing them that it is ok to take abuse from someone who has vowed to love and cherish you. Why is teaching that lesson to his kids looked at at "being there for his kids?" He has witnesses (the company) to his wife's abuse of him. He should just get out and fight for custody. Nobody said it would be easy, but it's more "right" and better for the kids than he is doing for them now.
bab Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I have a guy friend that is in a similar situation to your friend a4a. As far as I know he hasn't cheated yet, but I'm sure it's not that far off. I can't say that I blame him. He told me (my husband was with us) that he has tried and tried to talk about their sexual problems, and she always brushes him off or get's pissed that he thinks there is a problem. He's been trying for 7 years and he's thinking of stopping, besides he says that everytime he brings it up, it usually gets worse. He's done the ever so popular game of waiting to see how long it would take her to initiate sex. He gave up waiting after a month. She also has a temper from HELL. We've seen her stomp out of many a social functions when he does something that she doesn't like, and it's almost never anything that most people would get upset over. He has to walk on eggshells around her, and that's not what he tells us, that's what we see. I asked him once why he was still with her if things were so crappy. He said there is way to much pressure for him to keep the marriage together. (Both his family and hers are very strict Catholics) He's convinced himself that this is what happens in all marriages after so many years, so why bother inflicting all the pain on everyone involved just to have to go through the trouble of finding someone new who will end up the same way? They do have common interests, and he can handle the temper (although he's not crazy about it) if she showed affection now and then. I disagree with this, but didn't get into it at this point because I realized that it was really none of my business and not something I wanted to get in the middle of. Anyway, while I certainly don't think he should cheat, I could understand if he did. I don't think things are ever so cut and dry.
SmoochieFace Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 He is not doing the kids any favors by staying. He is not living a "family life" but he is subjecting them to an abusive relationship as well as showing them that it is ok to take abuse from someone who has vowed to love and cherish you. Why is teaching that lesson to his kids looked at at "being there for his kids?" He has witnesses (the company) to his wife's abuse of him. He should just get out and fight for custody. Nobody said it would be easy, but it's more "right" and better for the kids than he is doing for them now. Exactly. He does have that option. However, if he cheats and she finds out... he could be screwed royally. May not be *fair* but that's the way it is. And speaking of *lessons*... exactly what sort of lesson would he be teaching his kids if they find out he is cheating?
Chump64 Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I also think it is odd how some people are shocked that their SO is cheating on them after attempts have been made to communicate needs and to fix the marriage....... First of all, 4A, I would suggest that your friends haven't really tried as hard as they want you to believe, and that they are justifying their behavior by saying they've tried super hard. My guess is that they don't want to do the hard work but they want to fool around, so they'll having you believing they've tried everything possible. If they have exhausted all options and the situation is unbearable -- kids or no kids -- they need to have the cajones to LEAVE. I also think it is odd how some people are shocked that their SO is cheating on them after attempts have been made to communicate needs and to fix the marriage....... I still question whether serious attempts were made to communicate needs. This seems to be one of the biggest problems in any marriage. Also -- why do you give so much credit to the leaving or cheating spouse? You seem to automatically believe that the leaver / cheater tried to fix things. You can't possibly know what's truly going on in someone else's marriage. I am skeptical of people who say they have tried to do everything possible to fix stuff. Again, in most cases, they want you to believe that so you think they are the good guys who are the victims of heartless spouses who refuse to change. Don't be so easily fooled. Now if they have been to counseling for months and months, or if the other spouse refused counseling, I might give an inch. I am obviously biased about this issue though, b/c I truly was blindsided by my husband's behavior, and I didn't know about things he saw as "issues" in our marriage until the damage was long done. It's amazing to me how many people (mainly men!) simply can't communicate / want to avoid emotions and difficult feelings.
Chump64 Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 A4, the man you mention is to blame for putting up with that $hit. If things are as awful as you portray, he is doing his kids no favors by sticking around. He needs to grow some balls. It sounds like you are pitying him and villifying the wife. In reality, (a) only HE can fix the situation, so quit having pity and tell him to buck up; and (b) you truly have no idea what goes on behind closed doors / how he treats his wife.
blind_otter Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I do agree that the excuse that the marital farce must continue for the sake of the children is pure bulls***. Yes, let's raise our kids to believe that acromonious, emotionally distant pantomimes of relationships are par for the course so that we can make sure they continue the legacy of sticking your head in the sand and putting up with bulls*** and never truely living your life because you're just afraid of the unknown, or dealing with consequences and being accountable for bad decisions or emotional laziness.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 I have witnessed it first hand...... my H has for 15 years they have been married for 13 years...... MC yes, even church ........ nada. But again I am not on the cheaters side, I stated 2 cases. I have friend with a cheating husband... a complete bastard. He has no remorse no guilt and no reason to do so that is apparent other than selfish reasons. I just am starting to think that the cheater is only 50% of the reason the cheating starts in the first place. This man is a dedicated father. He will probably leave once his children are going to be financially set in life and in college. Until then I doubt he will go. It's sad for all parties. But he has also lost his life to this woman. Funny once she had the kids..... she stopped working, got worse, and more demanding of him. The man works to the bone... his only passion in life are his 2 kids and work. Yet he treats his wife with respect even buys her tokens of love out of the blue. Yields to her wishes and she spends her time watching TV and gnawing on pop tarts and cheesy doodles. I have no sympathy for her. I wish he did have the balls to leave her but he is too worried that they will all end up broke after she destroys his business and she will use the kids against him, as she already attempts to.
blind_otter Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 When I cheated in the past I swore up and down and all around town that I wouldn't have looked elsewhere if I were satisfied at home but God's honest truth, it was just me covering my guilty ass.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 I have to wonder if there is a huge difference between an ongoing affair or a person like my friend that wants female affection from time to time......this is not a daily happening for him but probably about 2-3 times a year.... including trips to the stip clubs vip room.
Chump64 Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I just am starting to think that the cheater is only 50% of the reason the cheating starts in the first place. The cheater is 50 percent responsible for the state of the marriage, of course. The cheater is 100 percent responsible for making the choice to cross that line. Why would you avoid divorce and go for an affair instead, knowing all the devastation affairs can cause for spouses AND kids? That makes no sense. IMO, people who say that are too lazy, cowardly and cheap. They don’t want the hassle of breaking up the family, paying child support, etc., when in the end, that may well happen ANYWAY, because they cheated. A little foresight and basic common sense can go a long way. And I still maintain that you don't know this couple like you think you do. You don't know how he truly treats her. You don't know what went on in their MC sessions. Most people who know my husband (including me - ha) would have bet their lives that my spouse was a faithful husband. And look how wrong we all were. My point is that you can act all sympathetic for your friend, and think you know the score about their relationship, but you could be very, very wrong.
HokeyReligions Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Equal responsibility lies with both - including the responsibility of not getting a divorce first.
bab Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I have to wonder if there is a huge difference between an ongoing affair or a person like my friend that wants female affection from time to time......this is not a daily happening for him but probably about 2-3 times a year.... including trips to the stip clubs vip room. I don't know about your friend, but there sure would be for me. For me an ongoing affair is WAY worse than cheating a couple times a year. Not that I'm wild about a couple times a year either, but an ongoing affair implies a relationship. Although I love getting it on with my husband, it's the relationship that I feel makes us a couple. I don't want him to be a couple with someone else.
typical Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Yields to her wishes and she spends her time watching TV and gnawing on pop tarts and cheesy doodles. Maybe he drove her to it......there are some men out there whose ultimate goal is to have a wife at home while he philanders on the side...Part of keeping her at home is satiating her...If she is not so easily coerced into doing that, he applies mental pressure tactics until she is left wilted and shunned......growing to ginormous proportions, bad mouthing and being crude are a part of low self esteem as well in some cases......She has nowhere left to go but down, exactly in the place that he wants her because then she will never leave, she has grown comfortable and docile, and then he can strut about exclaiming "look what a fat stinky pig my wife is, she wont change, time to seek out extra comfort on the side, lawd knows I am entitled to it, look at her" Bottom line, in most cases, you are being shown what they want you to see....
bab Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Why would you avoid divorce and go for an affair instead, knowing all the devastation affairs can cause for spouses AND kids? Because in their eyes (and I'm playing devil's advocate here, I don't necessarily agree) an affair can be undetected. Hence no devastation at all. Only they will know. The devastation of a divorce is for certain. Can't exactly divorce your spouse without them and the kids knowing. In their minds (stress the word their here) they are more happy and the wife and kids are non the wiser. Everybody wins.
Author a4a Posted June 22, 2006 Author Posted June 22, 2006 I just am starting to think that the cheater is only 50% of the reason the cheating starts in the first place. The cheater is 50 percent responsible for the state of the marriage, of course. The cheater is 100 percent responsible for making the choice to cross that line. Why would you avoid divorce and go for an affair instead, knowing all the devastation affairs can cause for spouses AND kids? That makes no sense. IMO, people who say that are too lazy, cowardly and cheap. They don’t want the hassle of breaking up the family, paying child support, etc., when in the end, that may well happen ANYWAY, because they cheated. A little foresight and basic common sense can go a long way. And I still maintain that you don't know this couple like you think you do. You don't know how he truly treats her. You don't know what went on in their MC sessions. Most people who know my husband (including me - ha) would have bet their lives that my spouse was a faithful husband. And look how wrong we all were. My point is that you can act all sympathetic for your friend, and think you know the score about their relationship, but you could be very, very wrong. Well I can say if I were in his shoes..... I may consider cheating as well until things were stable with the business and the kids were going to be set as well. Then pack up the SUV and head for the happy hills. BTW the wife does not care if he goes to strip clubs..... I have to say after 30 years my H knows him quite well..... he has cried on his shoulder, they grew up together..... and 15 of knowing her well 18 if you count just friends..... He does know whats up..... like I said she sounds off to us as well. As a matter a fact my H just got tired of her BS and lies and cut her out of his life. I understand you may have a jaded perspective on this, but if you were in a hostage situation with your H and he threatened to ruin you and your kids life and had the power to do so.......things may not be so clear cut. I normally am 100% anti cheater.....but this one is a real pickle.
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