Outcast Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 And I haven't seen that movie, Outcast. Are you saying that it would "rock my world," and cast all my idealism out of my left nostril? Not at all. It's an example of the sort of things that can even overcome love in terms of dooming a relationship. For instance a good friend of mine was very much in love with someone but she had already had her two boys and was not able to deal with young children again. He on the other hand badly wanted children. All their love couldn't change that both of them had very different goals for life that both felt they needed to follow. I suppose one could argue that 'love' would mean one or the other would sacrifice their goals and I have known a couple of people in relationship to give up the idea of having children - but they acknowledged that having other kids around was good enough for them. In the case of my other friend and her bf, both felt equally strongly that they needed to follow the paths they had planned.
stoopid_guy Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 It IS true in many cases. Especially in a long term relationship. Have you ever been in one? I'm talking over seven years. If you have been you just might understand that statement and realize that it many cases it IS true. Not everyone understands that or can grasp that concept though. It takes a certain amount of maturity and commitment. Long-term relationship? My first date with my wife was March 11th, 1988. (We went to a Chinese restaurant in Nea Makri, Greece. The followed with a walk along the beach. It started raining and neither of us cared.) I can't pin down the date when I "fell out" of love, but it was probably 1997. I can decide what to do, but I can't decide how to feel. If everyone could simply decide who/when to love, life would be much easier. I'm not you, BG. I don't know what you can and can't do with a decision. If you can love (or not) with a decision, you have my admiration.
BareGoddess Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Long-term relationship? My first date with my wife was March 11th, 1988. (We went to a Chinese restaurant in Nea Makri, Greece. The followed with a walk along the beach. It started raining and neither of us cared.) I can't pin down the date when I "fell out" of love, but it was probably 1997. I can decide what to do, but I can't decide how to feel. If everyone could simply decide who/when to love, life would be much easier. I'm not you, BG. I don't know what you can and can't do with a decision. If you can love (or not) with a decision, you have my admiration. Thank you. And I understand what you're saying. I'm on the other side of the coin in that I can never really grasp the concept of falling "out" of love. Once I love someone, and love doesn't come that easily to me, I love them for life. Whether I choose to have that person in my life or not is irrelevant. Whomever I've ever loved, I still love. I can't decide to NOT love someone anymore.
stoopid_guy Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Thank you. And I understand what you're saying. I'm on the other side of the coin in that I can never really grasp the concept of falling "out" of love. Once I love someone, and love doesn't come that easily to me, I love them for life. Whether I choose to have that person in my life or not is irrelevant. Whomever I've ever loved, I still love. I can't decide to NOT love someone anymore. Understood. Neither my wife or I ever decided to fall out of love either. As a matter of fact, I still love her, I'm just not in love with her (if that makes any sense.)
BareGoddess Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Understood. Neither my wife or I ever decided to fall out of love either. As a matter of fact, I still love her, I'm just not in love with her (if that makes any sense.) Actually not really. It doesn't make sense to me. There have been lots of discussions about this notion of loving but of not being IN LOVE. It's a DECISION. It's complicated. I know. Not sure I understand it myself and I'm not spring chicken either. I've been around the block.
stoopid_guy Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Actually not really. It doesn't make sense to me. There have been lots of discussions about this notion of loving but of not being IN LOVE. It's a DECISION. It's complicated. I know. Not sure I understand it myself and I'm not spring chicken either. I've been around the block. Semantics , maybe? When I say I love someone, I mean I want them to be happy, I care about them a lot. I love my daughter, I love my siblings, I love my wife, I love our dog. When I say I'm "in love" with someone, I love them and also have romantic feelings. That's tougher to define, but I want to be with them constantly, I want to touch them. Unfortunately, I just can't control that. I have a lady friend now who I think about constantly, various sounds remind me of her voice, and a smile from her simply makes my day. Now, whether or not I pursue those feelings is a conscious decision. Having those feelings is not a decision. If I could decide to feel that way about my wife instead of this other lady, my life would be much simpler.
BareGoddess Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Semantics , maybe? When I say I love someone, I mean I want them to be happy, I care about them a lot. I love my daughter, I love my siblings, I love my wife, I love our dog. When I say I'm "in love" with someone, I love them and also have romantic feelings. That's tougher to define, but I want to be with them constantly, I want to touch them. Unfortunately, I just can't control that. I have a lady friend now who I think about constantly, various sounds remind me of her voice, and a smile from her simply makes my day. Now, whether or not I pursue those feelings is a conscious decision. Having those feelings is not a decision. If I could decide to feel that way about my wife instead of this other lady, my life would be much simpler. Believe me, I understand what you're saying more than you can ever know. But you CAN decide to feel that way about your wife. That feeling comes and goes when you're married a long time. If you decide to pursue this thing with this lady friend of yours, that feeling will eventually go away with her too. That's just a fleeting "romantic" feeling. It doesn't last. It takes a bit of effort to get that feeling with your spouse back but you CAN. You just have to make up your mind too. I think you're maybe addicted to that rush you get when you first fall for someone. Do you have addictive tendencies in other areas? (You don't have to tell us here..just think about that.) Just realize that the feeling will pass even with this new woman. Why bother going there and ruining what you have now? Try to see if you can get those feelings back with your wife. What do you think?
BareGoddess Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Another thing I want to add is this. You obviously have a flirtation going with this other woman. USE that...use that energy and unleash it on your wife. Pour that energy into her. Pretend she's that woman if you need to. (I know I'm going to get bashed for that but I don't care.) Pretend it's her and then eventually, you won't need to. Those feelings will really be for your wife and not for her.
BareGoddess Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 Also, just wanted to say sorry to Butta! Maybe we should start a separate thread on this. Apparently we've veered off-topic I think. I don't want to get a slap on the wrist.
Outcast Posted July 16, 2006 Posted July 16, 2006 The think time that you devote to the other person is what creates the attachment. As you ruminate on all her (seeming) positive points (since you don't know her enough to know the negative ones) she begins to seem superior to your wife in every way. And the more you build her up in your mind, the more attached you get. The cure is to stop mooning over her, which, yes, you can in fact control. I've done it. It is absolutely doable.
stoopid_guy Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 It takes a bit of effort to get that feeling with your spouse back but you CAN. You just have to make up your mind too. Friendship and tolerance, I can agree with. "In love," I can't. And I'm not talking about missing that giddy feeling of infatuation (which I admit is going on right now with the other lady.) I'm talking about the comfortable feeling of knowing there's someone who appreciates you. A good relationship is at least partly a mutual admiration society. When only one party is an active participant, it just can't last. (And you're right, a bit of a veer-off. Apologies...)
BareGoddess Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 It takes a bit of effort to get that feeling with your spouse back but you CAN. You just have to make up your mind too. Friendship and tolerance, I can agree with. "In love," I can't. And I'm not talking about missing that giddy feeling of infatuation (which I admit is going on right now with the other lady.) I'm talking about the comfortable feeling of knowing there's someone who appreciates you. A good relationship is at least partly a mutual admiration society. When only one party is an active participant, it just can't last. (And you're right, a bit of a veer-off. Apologies...) So who is the "active participant" in your marriage? You or your wife? I submit that if one is REALLY an active participant as you say, the other will follow suit in time. I guess you could say that I have my doubts that one of you is really "actively participating." I'm not putting you down. I just want to help you think about this. I can relate to everything you've said being in a long term marriage myself.
stoopid_guy Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 So who is the "active participant" in your marriage? You or your wife? I submit that if one is REALLY an active participant as you say, the other will follow suit in time. I was, for quite a while. Then I got frustrated and quit trying. Trying to initiate intimacy inititiated nothing but hard feelings in both of us (no pun intended.) After a few years of that I chose "comfortably numb." Pehaps if I kept trying? Who knows. Perhaps "in time," I could move Mt. Everest with a tea-spoon too.
BareGoddess Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 So who is the "active participant" in your marriage? You or your wife? I submit that if one is REALLY an active participant as you say, the other will follow suit in time. I was, for quite a while. Then I got frustrated and quit trying. Trying to initiate intimacy inititiated nothing but hard feelings in both of us (no pun intended.) After a few years of that I chose "comfortably numb." Pehaps if I kept trying? Who knows. Perhaps "in time," I could move Mt. Everest with a tea-spoon too. I love Pink Floyd.
clandestinidad Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 So who is the "active participant" in your marriage? You or your wife? I submit that if one is REALLY an active participant as you say, the other will follow suit in time. I was, for quite a while. Then I got frustrated and quit trying. Trying to initiate intimacy inititiated nothing but hard feelings in both of us (no pun intended.) After a few years of that I chose "comfortably numb." I think people 'fall out of love' because they're not getting what they need from their partner. They feel like they keep trying different things to make their SO feel loved, but that they're not getting anything in return. I dont know if I'd call it selfishness...because its an inherent NEED for people to be shown love. Outcast mentions a book frequently called The Five Love Languages (by Chapman)---its an excellent book describing how people are shown love. And its recommended in order to know what things your partner needs to feel loved. I think this is why people lose love.....because they're not being shown love in the way(s) they need it, so they dont feel it from their partner. The sad part is that the 2 partners might think they're showing love, but arent showing it in the ways that register for the other....so neither feels loved and both get apathetic
Tony T Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I think people 'fall out of love' because they're not getting what they need from their partner. They feel like they keep trying different things to make their SO feel loved, but that they're not getting anything in return. I dont know if I'd call it selfishness...because its an inherent NEED for people to be shown love. Outcast mentions a book frequently called The Five Love Languages (by Chapman)---its an excellent book describing how people are shown love. And its recommended in order to know what things your partner needs to feel loved. I think this is why people lose love.....because they're not being shown love in the way(s) they need it, so they dont feel it from their partner. The sad part is that the 2 partners might think they're showing love, but arent showing it in the ways that register for the other....so neither feels loved and both get apathetic In a nutshell, I think this says it all. Kat23 has got it right. People should bookmark this thread and read her post everyday they are married...and talk about it. If you want to keep a marriage together, each has got to be getting what they need...or at least desire...out of the relationship. This is good stuff!
BareGoddess Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 You're wife has to try too. You both need to TALK and negotiate for what you each want. We had a little rough patch like this at the 7 year mark. We were able to come together though and negotiate for what we each wanted emotionally (and otherwise) from each other. It can't be a one-sided effort. Many times though, if one is trying the other gets with the program. Sounds like maybe that was not the case with you. You need to talk to your wife. Many EA's turn into full-blown affairs. Is that really what you want? There won't be much of a chance after that to get things where they should be between you.
girly456 Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 U know JamesM I'm 36 And gitting married for the frist time and believe only time, in a few weeks if there r any things u can let me know that has made yours strong please share.
Tony T Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 In my opinion, every couple contemplating marriage or engaged should go to a competent marriage councellor for at least five to seven sessions and learn skills that will make a marriage last. Therapists are very familiar with the trouble spots in relationships and are trained to teach good communications skills as well as other elements of a good working marriage. It's far better to go to the counsellor ahead of time than when your marriage is in critical condition. Such counselling is an very small investment to make in one's married life.
BareGoddess Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I agree Tony. And I've always said it should be harder to get married and easier to divorce. We have it all wrong.
Outcast Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I think for both driving and getting married people should be obliged to pass a course before being allowed to obtain the license.
BareGoddess Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I totally agree with that! Yes, also before becoming parents. Well, that could all be part of the same course. Anyway, just wanted to answer one more thing on here. The OP asks what the recipe is for a good marriage. I've come to the conclusion that there IS no recipe. Marriage is more like a stir-fry. You add a little of this and a little of that..whatever you have on hand that's good and healthy and fresh. There's no ONE good recipe for ALL people .
JamesM Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Premarital counselling is far more effective than marital counselling because when you need it after marriage, there is incredibly so much more baggage. What makes my marriage strong? And yes, I believe it is. Probably more than I realize. Commitment. (And yes, we are best friends, she is incredibly sexy, I admire her for who she is, etc.). I can truthfully say that I was very close to an affair (or more than one) about a year ago. Why? Because my wife said she did not want sex anymore. (This had been building to a climax..in the wrong sense... for about four years. Good sex was long a thing of the past...she had less and less interest as time went on). And she meant it. She turned me down on every occasion. I learned what happens when sex is no longer a part of a relationship. I looked at a number of women seriously, and I know a couple (surprisingly) gave me more than a second look. Fortunately, none of them did more, because I would have gone for it. I could have easily said that this was how life was, and "gone numb." And I could have easily had a secret affair. But I didn't. Yes, at first I was angry. I was sad. I was angry again. I became depressed. I was a member on a Board of ill repute for many months/years. I never went to any of the ladies, but I enjoyed giving my opinions to guys who spent money on sex instead of their wives...some spent more than ten grand a year. I usually read the threads with amusement, and pointed out the futility of this so called "hobby." Well, one day last fall I received an email from the gf of a member. She discovered her bf's habit. In her anger, she asked for my insights. Why? I will never know unless you believe in fate or God. I tried to explain to her why men paid for sex when they had it for free at home. We developed an online relationship of sorts and also made a few phone calls. (During our "time" together, she learned that her bf not only had a hobby of using escorts and not only had another mistress besides her, but he was married! And his wife lived in the same city as she did! I was almost impressed by this guy's "skill.") I actually developed an interest in her. I think her bf had no clue what kind of woman he had had. Fortunately, this relationship never progressed. As a result of this, I realized that I needed to focus my energy on what I could do to help our sex life and marriage. This unknown woman helped me realize the pain that men can cause women when they do not stay committed to the vows that they make. Not only that, but I had children who unknowingly would be affected by my decision. If you read my first posts, you can see all of the details of our life and feel my pain back then. At the beginning of my journey, I joined this Board and a couple of other Marriage Boards...and quit the other Board of ill repute.. My goal was to get our sex life back. What I got was my wife's health back. To make this story shorter...because of these Boards, a poster told me of a different thyroid med which brought my wife's libido back, took away her pain, and gave her an incredibly better outlook on life. The change has been amazing. This med change occurred in April. Have you seen the movie called The Notebook? The feeling I had was like the husband's when his wife came out of her dementia fog near the end of the movie. The change is still with us. (So if your wife has thyroid probs, or had them, and still has a low libido, I can definitely recommend looking at this). So, to me love is not a feeling, it is a decision. It CAN bring back the "in love" feelings. I thought I could never regain my strong feelings of love for my wife, and I certainly did not think she would for me. I have to say that since my journey began last November, I have learned so much of what the payoff of commitment is. Up until then, I could talk about what commitment is, but now finally after 16 years of marriage, I can say that I have experienced what commitment really is. Not only does she enjoy sex, but we now hug, kiss, and touch like we did ten years ago. For the past four to six years as our sex life waned, our cuddling life did, too. She did not "feel in love," now she does....and so do I. Why am I telling this story again? Not for my glory...good grief, no. I am afraid if my wife knew all of the details leading to my journey, I certainly would not be a hero rather a failure as a husband. No, this journey that fortunately had a happy ending taught me so much about me, marriage, my wife, and commitment. That is why I say that the one thing that can make a marriage last...and flourish... is commitment.
magichands Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 Why am I telling this story again? Not for my glory...good grief, no. I am afraid if my wife knew all of the details leading to my journey, I certainly would not be a hero rather a failure as a husband. No, this journey that fortunately had a happy ending taught me so much about me, marriage, my wife, and commitment. That is why I say that the one thing that can make a marriage last...and flourish... is commitment. Dude, you rock!!!! I only hope I get a chance to apply what you have learned to my own life.
stoopid_guy Posted July 17, 2006 Posted July 17, 2006 I think this is why people lose love.....because they're not being shown love in the way(s) they need it, so they dont feel it from their partner. The sad part is that the 2 partners might think they're showing love, but arent showing it in the ways that register for the other....so neither feels loved and both get apathetic Much truth there. You have to speak the other person's "language." For me, that's touching. I say "I love you," I like hearing "I love you," but hearing it a thousand times doesn't mean as much as simply holding hands while in line at the theatre. For others, it might be little "just because" gifts. Many EA's turn into full-blown affairs. Is that really what you want? I have no clue what I want. Premarital counselling is far more effective than marital counselling because when you need it after marriage, there is incredibly so much more baggage. Great advice. Have to keep in mind though that people do change over time. Only a few years after finishing school make a major difference in who a person is. Kids make a difference. And great success story, James!
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