Well, folks. Tonight. The. Shit. Hit. The. Fan.

[uksurfer]

Aggggrrrrrrrrh

 

You should not have told her any of this.

 

I know, but jeez, I'm tired of these f***ing games. She knows how I feel. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

 

"How do you cope?" Are you freaking kidding me?? They are HER KIDS!!!

 

What mom in the world says that??????????????

 

Hmmm, that was my first thought, too. I sometimes think that the kids are part of her reason for all this. Like they're getting in the way of what she wants to do? Don't quote me on that, though, because it's not really something I'd like to believe.

 

Did she by chance happen to see a doctor for depression and get on some meds?

 

Nope. And she won't be persuaded, either, although I'm convinced that this was/is a big part of her problem. She's been showing pretty classic behaviour.

 

In your first posts back in May, you stated over and over and over how much you love her and how your life is destroyed. If your love for her can die that quickly, maybe it wasn't as strong as you thought. (side note: my H has put me thru hell and back for 11 months--I still love him and would like to try) And, if it is, if she is sincere and has finally come to her senses, can you start over?

 

My love for her hasn't died at all. If anything, it's stronger. I'm actually pretty f***ed up over this, and should *never* have gone on that 'date'. Jeez, even if Angelina Jolie had turned up, I'd still have been home within the hour. And my life isn't destroyed - it's just hitting a minor speedbump, whatever the outcome.

 

As for the starting over bit, I'd like to think so. I can forgive. There's too much at stake to not at least try.

 

But like I said, the first move needs to come from her.

[Billy Bob]

I'm actually pretty f***ed up over this, and should *never* have gone on that 'date'. Jeez, even if Angelina Jolie had turned up, I'd still have been home within the hour.

 

Not me, If I had a chance at Angelina Jolie my wife would be history!

[dgiirl]

Aww UK Dating or even just thinking about dating for me has been very confusing. But I'm glad that you went out on a "date". And I'm even happier that you took something away from it. You are not ready, and that's ok. Do not get discouraged tho. The main important thing for me was to try to challenge my comfort zone. Just thinking about dating is way to stressful for me. But that doesnt mean I cannot get out there and make new friends. And I strongly believe the key to all of this is making new friends. New friends that only know you as a "single" person and not so and so's husband. Making your own new friends will show you how much people like you for you. And it will start to build your self confidence again. For me, I'm not worrying about dating. It adds way too much stress to my life at the moment. If it happens, it happens, but I'm not ready to plan it all, you know? And I've had a few guys approach me already, and it just stresses the hell out of me. I dont want to, nor need to, worry about it right now. Enjoy the time alone. Get to know yourself again. You'll be dating and in a long term relationship again in no time and you'll be wishing you were single just a little longer. So take the time now and enjoy it huge *hugs* for getting out there! You should be proud of yourself just for going.

[uksurfer]

Aww UK Dating or even just thinking about dating for me has been very confusing. But I'm glad that you went out on a "date". And I'm even happier that you took something away from it. You are not ready, and that's ok. Do not get discouraged tho.

 

It really felt like I was betraying my wife. Stupid, huh? However, it felt like I was betraying my kids more - and that was something I just couldn't handle. I just don't understand how *anyone* could leave their partner and kids for someone else.

 

It'll be a long time before it happens again for me.

[dgiirl]

I understand those feelings really really well. It's not like you can just throw a switch and start dating again and not feel anything. Regardless of your wife's actions, you are still in love with her and you're still commited to the marriage. And it takes time to adjust, to move on. So I'm glad that you did try it, and I'm glad that you realize that you're not ready just yet. You did not do anything wrong, you did not betray your wife or kids, you are just not ready yet. And it takes a lot of strength to realize that and to take some more time out. A lot of people just jump into another relationship hoping it will cure the loneliness. But imo, that's just worse. Not only do they have all their current problems, but they are adding more problems all new relationships have. Hang out with your current friends and focus on making new ones!

[uksurfer]

It's not like you can just throw a switch and start dating again and not feel anything.

 

So I guess our date's off then?

 

Regardless of your wife's actions, you are still in love with her and you're still commited to the marriage.

 

I am. And I am.

 

I've just spent an hour with a really good therapist and he's convinced that this is just an 'episode', that it's temporary, and that she's intelligent enough (which she truly is) to come to her senses eventually. He agrees that her behaviour is just too wacked out to be considered normal or logical. I told him about all the stuff we've been through in the last couple years and he kinda thinks that life just got too much for her, and that her coping mechanism is fried. Y'know, I'm kinda convinced that she'll come round eventually, too.

 

I'm in this for the long haul, kids.

 

[uksurfer]

Dating at our age sucks bud.

 

Dude - I'm only 32!!!

 

Heh. But I know what you mean. I've been out of the game for 7 years now and, yep, I'm a little squeaky.

 

Anyway bud... Keep in touch OK?

 

Definitely. As long as she keeps going, I'll keep posting.

[Lor]

I've just spent an hour with a really good therapist and he's convinced that this is just an 'episode', that it's temporary, and that she's intelligent enough (which she truly is) to come to her senses eventually. He agrees that her behaviour is just too wacked out to be considered normal or logical. I told him about all the stuff we've been through in the last couple years and he kinda thinks that life just got too much for her, and that her coping mechanism is fried. Y'know, I'm kinda convinced that she'll come round eventually, too.

 

I'm in this for the long haul, kids.

 

 

How you said that she's started wanting to do more with the kids, be around you more, gave up the fantasy of the boytoy, it sounds like she's already coming around. She said, "How do you cope?" about your kids and that made me wonder, since you'd said you had problems trying to get them to go to sleep, if she didn't mean "How do you copy doing this alone?"

 

Hopefully she's realized how badly she's screwed things up. 7 years is a long time to just throw it all away--for both of you. If you love her enough to get her to open up, forgive her and work on getting back together, then she's a lucky woman. Give her time--I bet she's already seeing the good thing she's "almost" thrown away.

[uksurfer]

if she didn't mean "How do you cope doing this alone?"

 

Y'know, that makes a lot more sense to me. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

Hopefully she's realized how badly she's screwed things up. 7 years is a long time to just throw it all away--for both of you. If you love her enough to get her to open up, forgive her and work on getting back together, then she's a lucky woman. Give her time--I bet she's already seeing the good thing she's "almost" thrown away.

 

I spoke to her mum last night, too, who says that she's not even in contact with this 24 year old any more, never mind planning on meeting him, which lifted me up a beat or two.

 

I'm much more than willing to work on this - and I'm prepared to give her all the time she needs. Yep, she's a lucky woman.

[Mz. Pixie]

For women they have usually emotionally moved on before they get separated in the first place.

 

For her, she's been dealing with this for a bit and has had time to adjust to the idea and it's all new to you.

 

The reason dating is not working out is you shouldn't be dating now anyway- no matter what she's doing. What I wanted you to do is give her the appearance that you are.

 

Neither of you guys- CC or UK have any business dating. You're not ready. You'll either hurt the girl or end up too emotionally into her because it's a rebound. Find out who you are and what you want first, get healthy and then decide when it's time to date.

[CryingCanuck]

Amen To That Ma'am

[uksurfer]

For women they have usually emotionally moved on before they get separated in the first place.

 

Well I just made her cry last night (in a good way) with an email I sent her. She said that 'at the moment', she feels she needs to be where she is. Which says to me that it could change. Yeah, it might not change, but it *could*.

 

She also said that she'll consider going to see a counsellor, too, which is something she was always dead set against.

 

And she said she remembers the good times and is glad that I reminded her of some of the ones she forgot. That means there's now some more positives to our relationship that she'll have to consider.

 

God, I *love* her.

[Mz. Pixie]

Well I just made her cry last night (in a good way) with an email I sent her. She said that 'at the moment', she feels she needs to be where she is. Which says to me that it could change. Yeah, it might not change, but it *could*.

 

She also said that she'll consider going to see a counsellor, too, which is something she was always dead set against.

 

And she said she remembers the good times and is glad that I reminded her of some of the ones she forgot. That means there's now some more positives to our relationship that she'll have to consider.

 

God, I *love* her.

 

Eh to me, this is more fence sitting. That's her way of getting what she wants from you while she gets the other stuff she wants- single life etc.

 

I've been a wayward wife. The only difference is that I point blank said there wasn't a chance for us to get back together and didn't string my H along until something greener came along. (I had an affair but didn't leave him for the other man- I was done with him by then but that was a symptom of what was missing from our marriage). I gotta say even though I did what I did earlier with the cheating etc I have more respect for myself that I didn't string him along like some of the women on this site do. NUTS!

 

She does have feelings for you- she may even love you in some ways- but that doesn't mean she's committed to the marriage. It's confusing at first when you leave. You miss that person even if things were not what you wanted. They have been in your life for a long time and most likely your best friend in alot of ways. You love that person as the parent of your kids. That's why its confusing and alot of women waffle back and forth for a bit IMO.

 

I still love my exhusband as the father of our kids. How could I not? We were married for 13 years and he gave me two beautiful children. Despite the fact that he's an ass to me now, I cannot forget that he put socks on our babies inside their sleepers in the winter to keep their feet warm and stuff like that. Doesn't mean I wanted to stay married to him though.

[jmargel]

I read some of your posts and it sounds like fence-sitting to me. In my situation and all of the other situations I read and posted about the only times that things turn in your favor is when you use "tough-love".

 

It's like taking an alcholic and saying 'You can drink but only moderatly'. It doesn't work. Your wife is doing this by saying 'This marriage is going to work just based on her words to you'. Words are cheap and meaningless until you put substance, action behind it.

 

If it's not this 24 year old, then which guy is next? Why are you trying to treat the symptoms when you know you have to treat the cause of the illness? This is where tough love comes into play. Stop rolling over & piddling. Either she wants to work on this marriage or not. If she doesn't, fine. Then let you go so you can move onto better things. If she does, then she needs to take steps to show this. Which means, going to individual & couple counseling, not just "thinking about it". Also to start working on the relationship with you outside the counseling. Going out on dates, doing things together & doing things with the kids. To set a date to move back in and to get her priorities straight in life. She sounds very immature, personally.

 

Unless you make her make a decision she won't make it. Actually she would without her even knowing it. Her decision would be to continue to screw you over. She knows you will be waiting there for her in open arms, so why not party it up? What does she have to lose?

 

DEMAND respect from her! Women love confidence, it's one of the things your wife loved about you. So why are you giving that up? As long as you are tolerating her behavior you are just endorsing her to do it more to you. If one of your children swore at you or treated you with disrespect how would you handle it? You need to handle her in the same way, since she is acting like a child.

 

On top of that that communication between you two needs to be fixed. Only counseling can solve that. Check out my link in my signature, it may help you.

[Becoming]

Yes, I've sat here and read the whole post, too, now when I should be working and find tears in my eyes, uk. Thank you for being so compellingly honest with us here and for being a good father and a man of conviction who honors his word.

 

I remember your pain. My H had an email affair when chat rooms were first up and running at about your W's age in similar circumstances. My H's business went bust my first year of doctoral studies. We were advised to declare bankruptcy with two babies, ages 1 and 3, with me back in school and dependent upon him. We didn't. He got a good job and we started repaying all the debt, poor as church mice, but his confidence was so shattered, and I was so depressed caring for two children and studying and trying to make ends meet that I was exhausted all the time. It was a situation rife for an affair, which turned out to be just an email affair, but when I found it, I felt alternately like a ragdoll being shaken the jaws of a very big dog and like an elephant was sitting on my chest for months.

 

The day I discovered all the emails, I called my sister and screamed and cried. She talked me down. Then I printed out all of the emails (an exquisite torture that made me numb enough to be chillingly rational) and bound them in a 3-ring binder. I called a lawyer for an appt. to find out the laws and what I needed to do to protect myself and my children financially. I threw my H out, changed the locks. And that was all in one day! Then I CLEANED. For a week I was a cleaning demon. I took care of myself, my babies, screamed and cried and scrubbed, did lots of soul-searching, and put down conditions under which I would consider the marriage continuing. I declared our marriage over and said if he wanted to marry me again, this {all specified} was what he had to do.

 

It was the best thing I ever did in our marriage, though it felt like my life was crumbling all around me and I was standing on just one little ledge left of it with an elephant standing on my chest. It felt like a huge risk, but one I had to take to preserve what little scrap of dignity and integrity I had left as a human being. And it worked. He met all of my conditions for coming back home and we continued to work through our issues, though, to be honest, it took years, not months. And a lot of pain and patience on my part because I just couldn't understand and forgive so easily.

 

All of this is to say that playing hard ball is the only way to wake your W up as to what she's losing. Yes, she probably is traumatized by having two small children and financial problems in a marriage where emotional needs may not be known enough to be asked for or met. You're traumatized by all of this, too. This is what life does to people, and many of us rebel hoping to hang on to childhood as long as possible. That's what she's been doing--being a child because she didn't want to be an adult anymore. Well, who the hell does, right? It's unfair, etc., but not everyone is as strong as we evidently are, UK.

 

Have YOU laid down the law about what it will take for her to be in this marriage again and asked her for what it is she wants out of marriage that she's not been getting? I see two people scared to be honest and vulnerable because when they are they just get hurt. But maybe I'm projecting my own experience here.

 

Only when two people start building a world where they protect each other and are honest and vulnerable with one another can marriage really work. It's taken me 25 years of marriage to learn this hard lesson the hard way.

 

Yes, our marriage survived because we both fought for it by allowing ourselves to feel and express hurt and pain instead of remaining protected behind reactive anger like two armored knights jousting for the best position. Sometimes we only fought for our marriage for the children, to be honest. But now it's the best it's ever been. Because what I learned is that my behavior contributed to pushing my H away--not excusing his inexcusable behavior, but just accepting responsibility for what's mine. I had a lot of growing up to do even in my mid thirties, too, even though I was outwardly "the responsible one."

 

I think we each get married because we want the other to continue to meet all our childlike needs for love, affection, attention, etc., without really stopping to think about what we have to do for the other at cost to some of our own comfort. Then we get mad that the other's not doing what we expected and start castigating them, which is not exactly conducive to getting what we want. Whether this anger is with words or withdrawal, the result is the same--the marriage starts coming unravelled.

 

The 24-yr-old, IMHO, is not the real issue. He, like my H's email fling, was a fantasy that made her feel good about herself in a way I suspect you weren't doing (probably for good reasons, like life--no judgment!). But the real issue is not about the other person; it's about what happened to the two of you. Regardless of what happens to your marriage, you owe it to the both of you to find out what really happened to lead her to wonk out so badly so that you each can heal and perhaps pick the pieces up to quilt another marriage that is more comforting than the one you had, if that's what you want.

 

I hate to say it, but the near future holds pain regardless of which path you choose--either marriage or divorce. My prayer is for the blessing of a better new life that really does come through and beyond the pain.

 

But you really have to know what it is you want and what you will and will not tolerate in a relationship by finding out what's desired, what's nonnegotiable and unacceptable, and what's negotiable. Until you know this about yourself, you're just gonna repeat this pattern with your W or someone else.

 

So that's my $.02 worth, for what it's worth.

 

Yes, protect yourself for the worse, but don't cut yourself off unnecessarily for the best until you're sure you just can't be married to her anymore.

 

All the best, UK!

[Mz. Pixie]

Becoming is right but she said it much nicer than I did

 

When I divorced I read "Love must be tough" by James Dobson. Everything in the book that it told you NOT to do?? My exhusband did it. And it pushed me away.

 

That book is a great example of what to do and what not to do. I hope you've purchased it.

[Lor]

You know, my only question is, if UK makes too many demands in this fragile stage, he may end up pushing her away. If you tell her that to come back she needs to do A, B, C, D, and E, she's gonna think wait a second, why should she do all the changing? She can't handle all of that at once right now. Like Becoming said, it takes years. I think she already realizes what she's done and how stupid it was. What UK needs to do is get her to admit it. Then start looking for counsellors, etc.

 

As far as words being cheaper than actions, she's already trying to make amends. Cripes, what I wouldn't give for my H to clean for me and to ask if he could watch the kids for me. I personally think she handled the "date" with a lot of grace.

 

I don't condone what she did but it sounds like she's a very confused person right now, going thru the midlife crisis and depression.

 

Hang in there UK. You may come out a sucess story yet.

[Becoming]

You know, my only question is, if UK makes too many demands in this fragile stage, he may end up pushing her away. If you tell her that to come back she needs to do A, B, C, D, and E, she's gonna think wait a second, why should she do all the changing? She can't handle all of that at once right now. Like Becoming said, it takes years. I think she already realizes what she's done and how stupid it was. What UK needs to do is get her to admit it. Then start looking for counsellors, etc.

 

 

Hang in there UK. You may come out a sucess story yet.

 

 

Yes, it does take a lot of time and patience and work. My conditions were things like--end it, no more, confess to our pastor for accountability, answer all my questions honestly, let me have access to all email accounts/phone/correspondence, listen to my pain over his behavior (it was important that he saw the consequences of his behavior in this case), really work at making this marriage a success instead of shaking a stick at it and calling it good, get in therapy. That was just our situation. I gave him time limits on everything so he knew exactly what I expected. And yeah, I probably overwhelmed him.

 

In other words, I called him to confess and repent, to put it in theological terms. That was crucial for me because without his admission that he'd done anything wrong, there was no hope for going forward with him. I was dealing with someone who refused to see that his actions or inactions affected anyone else.

 

At the same time, I was not condemning (ok, for the most part ). Instead, I freely admitted what I had done to drive him away from the marriage after a lot of soul searching. And I was honest about all of my feelings. I wasn't demanding; I was clear that I wanted him, just not doing the things he was doing, which were unacceptable. And I wooed him a bit during that time.

 

It was a terrible, terrible time. So sad. I did what I had to do to take care of myself so I could be a loving person despite that pain, and I took care of the children and house. My work suffered greatly, but when I told folks about the separation, they were great.

 

And I grew stronger through it all. In the end our marriage benefitted.

 

Trust your judgment about what's best. Just be open, honest, and vulnerable and loving, making decisions in accord with what's good, not revenge. And very, very patient and steadfast in devotion. I think she may come around. I think she's probably simply overwhelmed, depressed, and emotionally immature.

 

I suspect your W is wanting some kind of emotional love she feels was deficient in her life as triggered by the children who are receiving devotion she wants but knows is not right to want. She probably has no clue about this, though.

[Chinook]

Christ almighty, I just read this thing from end-to-end. I get the feeling things might be back on track. I do think you need to ask yourself

 

1. Do I still love her...?

2. Can I truly trust her and forgive her...?

 

 

 

And for her... I think she probably was having a crisis but also it has led her to wonder and evaluate where she is. They don't call it the 7 year itch for nothing. IMHO I think she would be needing counselling (marital) with me before I set things totally back on track.

 

But Christ you've been a bloody saint through it. If I had a guy like this, I'd be all over him. She doesn't know she's bloody born.

 

(excuse my language, I'm just so amazed!)

[CryingCanuck]

Believe it or not , there are a ton of guys like UK out there.....

 

WE get hammered by our wives for things in the past (23 years for me) and we generally take it in the balls everytime until we say enough.

 

I know I'm generalizing/stereotyping but from most of what I;ve read on these threads, you have, mostly woemn who are asking for ways to leave their marriages (some for VERY VALID REASONS) and some because they are bored with their lives and think that their marriages are the blame.

 

Anyway, just me venting,,,,,,, I'm like a yo-yo I let go pull back, let go pull back... hopefully someday I let go and maybe stay there......

[uksurfer]

But Christ you've been a bloody saint through it. If I had a guy like this, I'd be all over him. She doesn't know she's bloody born.

 

(excuse my language, I'm just so amazed!)

 

Thanks Chinook - I'm doing my best here. After reading that, though, I just want to show both of these entire threads. Heh. Wonder how that would go down??

 

And thanks, too, Becoming - and everyone else. Appreciate your comments. All makes a lot of sense.

 

Quick update: Even though we're in still in pretty regular contact, I wrote her a really long email pouring my heart out/laying my soul bare out earlier in the week. She replied that it made her cry, that "at the moment" it's best that she carries on living in this room, and that maybe she should go to counselling. That all sounded quite positive to me.

 

She then came round Thursday evening, and was initially being super nice to me, and it looked like it was going to be a pleasant night. Unfortunately, the conversation switched to custody and stuff like that (which is never easy to talk about at the best of times) and got pretty heated. So I went out for a walk on the beach to get some air while she put the kids to bed. We carried on arguing for a little while when I got back home, and she ended it by telling me that that email I'd sent her had really made her think, that I'd reminded her of some of the good times that she's forgotten, and that she came round that night wanting to have a really nice night with me, and that she has a lot of hope of us getting back together.

 

Man, that really, really floored me. In fact, I almost bloody fell over. She didn't really say anything more after that, and just left.

 

Then she came round for the full day Saturday (her sister and her family had come to visit me), and again, we all had a really nice day. We both mucked around on the beach (a bit of play fighting, where I'm 99.9% sure she almost kissed me, but pulled away at the last second, and I joked to her about it), we went out to a restaurant (I played with her hair, she fed me from her plate a couple times), had a couple more drinks at home, then she kissed me in the doorway as she left. I hung out by the door as she was walking away, and she kept turning round, looking at me and waving every few paces as she headed down the street.

 

She even showed me some text messages on her phone from friends while we were sat eating, and I was half expecting to see this 24 year old kid's name in the list of texts as she scrolled down, but it wasn't, which lifted me another beat, and confirmed to me a little more that she's not in contact with him.

 

I still really don't know where all this is going, but honestly, the last few days have felt like they did when we first got together.

 

I know what you mean when you say you see two scared, confused, and hurting people. That's definitely how I feel, and I'm sure she's feeling the same way.

 

I'm doing my best to make her fall in love with me again (and I jokingly told her that) but part of me tells me that she wasn't really 'out of love' in the first place. So my problem now is that I don't want to bug her. I guess I've gotta stay cool, eh?

[uksurfer]

I do think you need to ask yourself

 

1. Do I still love her...?

 

Damn stupid question, but yes, I love her more than is probably good for me!!

 

2. Can I truly trust her and forgive her...?

 

Yes. Trusting someone is a conscious decision you make, and yes, I can decide to trust her again. Forgiveness? Yes, I can do that too. I honestly believe that much of this has been caused by (possibly) depression, and the s***ty course of events over the last 18 months or so. Everyone deserves a break once in a while.

 

As for 'demands', I don't have many. Obviously, I'd want complete honesty, but what would make me happier than anything is if we did get back together, she'd get rid of her laptop on an evening, and we'd just do stuff together like we used to. Jeez, even if it's just watching a DVD.

 

Honestly, the damned internet must have wrecked so many good relationships!

[alphamale]

I know what you mean when you say you see two scared, confused, and hurting people. That's definitely how I feel, and I'm sure she's feeling the same way.

I don't think so UKSURFER....she is not scared, confused or hurt in any way whatsoever. You are grossly mis-reading the situation.

[johan]

Whether she is confused or not is known only to her (in spite of anything she says). I think the best thing to is to treat her as if she knows exactly what she's doing. She wanted out, so she's out. Backward glances on her way out the door are nice, but shouldn't overshadow the fact that she wouldn't be leaving if she had what it takes. That's the important thing, in my mind.

 

I'm sure when you made a list of the characteristics of the right woman for you, "flake out after we get married and have kids" wasn't on it.

[uksurfer]

I'm sure when you made a list of the characteristics of the right woman for you, "flake out after we get married and have kids" wasn't on it.

 

Nor did I plan for me to lose a really lucrative business contract, for her dad to be diagnosed with - and die shortly afterwards from - cancer, and for us to have terrible money problems that nearly caused bankruptcy, all in the space of a year.

 

It's a lot for anyone to cope with. And different people cope in different ways. Not that I'm excusing it, but I can understand in a sense.