Touche Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Touche: sorry about all the codes. Let me try this again! Touche, did you see my edit on that message above? ”And Touche, an emotional affair IS very much infidelity. If you are confiding in someone other than your spouse, sharing intimate details of your life, having feelings for them -- just because there is no sex (yet), it is definitely time, energy and love taken away from the spouse or significant other.” Are you saying that if two people express their love for each other, but don’t have sex, it’s not an “affair"? I don't completely agree. So if you have a g/f that you love and confide in and tell her certain things that you don't tell your spouse then is THAT infidelity too? Sorry, don't think so.
whichwayisup Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Point is, that door shouldn't be opened in the first place. By allowing the 'mind' to think about it - And enjoy - Even ponder the what if's - Still can be dangerous for some. It IS a choice and some people can't stop themselves from walking through the door and some can, by not even entertaining thoughts and allowing their minds to 'go' there with other people.
Touche Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Point is, that door shouldn't be opened in the first place. By allowing the 'mind' to think about it - And enjoy - Even ponder the what if's - Still can be dangerous for some. It IS a choice and some people can't stop themselves from walking through the door and some can, by not even entertaining thoughts and allowing their minds to 'go' there with other people. Totally agree with you but it still only applies to SOME, maybe even MOST...but certainly not ALL.
whichwayisup Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 I don't completely agree. So if you have a g/f that you love and confide in and tell her certain things that you don't tell your spouse then is THAT infidelity too? Sorry, don't think so. You're talking same sex friends? Woman to woman? Well, that's different because most women don't want to f*** their women friends...Or have a 'relationship' with them and develope romantic feelings for them which then causes problems in the marriage. We're talking about men and women here.
Touche Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 You're talking same sex friends? Woman to woman? Well, that's different because most women don't want to f*** their women friends...Or have a 'relationship' with them and develope romantic feelings for them which then causes problems in the marriage. We're talking about men and women here. So you're telling me that in all the time you've been married you've never had a passing thought or wanted to f*** another? Come on! Let's all be honest here. Doesn't mean you're cheating or disloyal if you have a thought or two about another person...or even MORE than a few passing thoughts. For me, it falls under the category of fantasy. Period and end of story. For others it becomes reality and that's where the danger lies.
whichwayisup Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 So you're telling me that in all the time you've been married you've never had a passing thought or wanted to f*** another? Come on! Let's all be honest here. Doesn't mean you're cheating or disloyal if you have a thought or two about another person...or even MORE than a few passing thoughts. For me, it falls under the category of fantasy. Period and end of story. For others it becomes reality and that's where the danger lies. You're taking what I am saying to the extreme. Here's an exampe of what I'm talking about. You (not you particularly) are at work. The new guy catches your eye - Hmmmmm... Afew days pass, you and him go for lunch. You catch yourself enjoying how he makes you feel...Your heart flutters and you smile, and blush...You KNOW that nothing is going to happen seeing as your married and he is married. BUT, what harm will it do? It doesn't mean anything - It's just harmless fun, right? Fast forward a month. You have a fight with your husband or he has a fight with his wife...Somehow the two of you end up talking about it - In detail and then all of a sudden you're calling home saying you're working late. You stay with this guy, helping him or him helping you, listening, laughing and whatever...Feelings are being fed, developing into something more. THAT IS DANGEROUS. It's a potiential situation growing that COULD lead to something else. All I am saying is, some people don't recognize the signs until they're in deep. Meaning the feelings are there and clouds the mind in making the right choice. Seeing a hot guy and thinking hmmm, yeah I'd like that - NORMAL thoughts. Everybody does that-No big deal. I'm talking about crossing the lines and letting other feelings grow between a man and a woman.
Touche Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 You're taking what I am saying to the extreme. Here's an exampe of what I'm talking about. You (not you particularly) are at work. The new guy catches your eye - Hmmmmm... Afew days pass, you and him go for lunch. You catch yourself enjoying how he makes you feel...Your heart flutters and you smile, and blush...You KNOW that nothing is going to happen seeing as your married and he is married. BUT, what harm will it do? It doesn't mean anything - It's just harmless fun, right? Fast forward a month. You have a fight with your husband or he has a fight with his wife...Somehow the two of you end up talking about it - In detail and then all of a sudden you're calling home saying you're working late. You stay with this guy, helping him or him helping you, listening, laughing and whatever...Feelings are being fed, developing into something more. THAT IS DANGEROUS. It's a potiential situation growing that COULD lead to something else. All I am saying is, some people don't recognize the signs until they're in deep. Meaning the feelings are there and clouds the mind in making the right choice. Seeing a hot guy and thinking hmmm, yeah I'd like that - NORMAL thoughts. Everybody does that-No big deal. I'm talking about crossing the lines and letting other feelings grow between a man and a woman. No, Witch. YOU are taking what I'M saying to the extreme. Again, not everyone has to walk through the door after it's been opened. Feelings don't cloud judgement unless you LET them. Like you said, it's a CHOICE!
ThumbingMyWay Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 So you're telling me that in all the time you've been married you've never had a passing thought or wanted to f*** another? Come on! Let's all be honest here. Doesn't mean you're cheating or disloyal if you have a thought or two about another person...or even MORE than a few passing thoughts. For me, it falls under the category of fantasy. Period and end of story. For others it becomes reality and that's where the danger lies. I have lust in my mind everyday....I am a guy we always think about sex and other women. but for me too, its fanasty....but I still I wish I didnt have lust in my mind. And your right, for others, they cant seem to separate it and they fall prey to cheating all for some emotional high or sex with someone other than there spouse. My wife has this problem, and she is going back to counseling to find out WHY she has this problem. She LOVES attention from men, the problem is she knows its not good for her or for our relationship. And it opens the door for temptation. in fact she told me last night. She wants to kow WHY she seeks mens attention, not just hello nice lady, but sexual the attention. Almost as if she needs to have sexual attention to make her feel pretty and wanted. I honestly believe it has to do with her upbrinning and what she saw as a child. Her mother was the same way....5 kids and 3 different fathers, Her sister is the same.....COMPLETE flirt and has had many many men in her life. BUT look at her mom and sister......nothing but pain and suffering from all these men..... I commend my wife....last night was a turning point for us. She is deeply remorseful for her cheating and she realises she has a great man in her life and she is going to do everything possible to KEEP ME. She wants to fix herself so she can be happy with what she has and nto what she cant have....ie other men. ahh f***.....this is so off topic,,,just ranting....f***in used cars!!!!
Chump64 Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think anyone here is saying that people don't CHOOSE to cheat. Of course they do.
Touche Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think anyone here is saying that people don't CHOOSE to cheat. Of course they do. Well, I was trying to make a point by saying that but you took it out of context obviously.
Ladywithafan Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Peggy Vaughan: People love to debate whether or not we're "naturally monogamous." Actually, it's an irrelevant question - because no one has ever lived outside a society to see how we would "normally" be. The REAL question is not whether or not it's natural - or whether we may WANT to have multiple partners. We don't DO everything we WANT to do. As human beings, we can make decisions about what we do. So no matter why people may WANT to have affairs - they don't ACT on that desire - unless they're willing to DECEIVE THEIR PARTNERS. Without the deception, people would not have many affairs (regardless of their desires) - because most people can't handle a sexually open marriage. So the issue (again) is HONESTY - not whether or not we're naturally monogamous. I like this post a lot...especially the last paragraph! I've been through it w/my x-husband...and then went out deliberately to see what the thrill was all about...in my xperience, 1 guy wouldn't screw me, 1 guy was a one nighter & the last guy, when I realized that once the thrill of getting away w/it was over, and I was still in love w/my husband(at the time) and saw kind of what the attraction for a married man would be...I couldn't get rid of this dude...this was 7 years ago...I got divorced six years ago as my x-husband didn't want to get rid of his EA...and a child was born prior to my divorce w/two abortions prior to that... I think they are better suited to each other, but it was a painful path to that knowledge. I have two beautiful sons with my xhusband. I don't think he ever fell out of love with me, he just got caught up & didn't want to leave either woman so I made the choice...made some pretty bad ones after that as well...but I still make monogomy my choice.
Mz. Pixie Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 I do know many happy monogamous marriages Or so you think. Honestly, how can you ever possibly know what goes on in someone else's marriage? Not just based on my own situation, but based on life experiences, you can never really know what other people are up to in their personal lives -- and I'm not just referring to marriages. People I have known my whole life have suprised the sh*t out of my. One of my best friends, a "salt of the earth" type, stole money from her job. Another -- an education official -- drove drunk, his daughter was injured and he fled the scene. People are not always going to show you their true colors, and marriages are not always what they seem. And I really think the reasons people are spouting here for why infidelity occurs are very simplistic. There are tons of reasons, typically. Lots of little keys, not one big answer sitting there in front of your face. This is so true Chump. Everyone that knew my exhusband and I would have thought we had the perfect marriage. I taught Sunday School, I was in church with my kids every weekend (he wasn't there but I was). We were one of two couples in our original group still married. No one would have EVER thought that our marriage was in trouble. Because I didn't vent to my friends and family how miserable I was and how bad things were it was a shock when it finally came out. I didn't want my venting to be like my mother- always griping but never leaving. So, I didn't tell anyone until I made the decision to leave. I was one of those people who said I'd never cheat, who looked down upon those who did. But, of course, I eventually did end up cheating. Didn't mean I was a horrible person but rather that my actions were wrong. There are lots of other things that people can do in a marriage that is wrong too- such as extreme neglect- abusing porn- withholding sex- but the one that sets the most fires off is infidelity. When I started selectively sharing my experience with others when necessary people were FLOORED that I'd ever done anything along those lines. One of my friends said that she had to commend me for even talking about it- because lots of people do it but never tell. No one really and truly knows what goes on in a marriage but the two people involved and God. There are too many little nuances that go into that kind of relationship that couldn't possibly be disclosed.
TheTallDarkStranger Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Butta: a quick browse of your posts will give anybody a very clear picture. 64 is right: why are you picking fights with her when you are the OW? Is this how you justify what you do? And please, don't tell me you would really get plastic breast implants because your MM wants to go back to his wife. *Kinda* superficial, girlfriend. I think you should seriously evaluate your behaviour. Touche et al: as soon as you start witholding feelings from your SO and redirect them to someone else, that is cheating in my book. You can lust, you can flirt, you can meet someone for a drink... once. After that it's infidelity. See my post earlier in this thread: this issue is dishonesty, not sex.
Author littleroom Posted June 2, 2006 Author Posted June 2, 2006 My cheating in my own relationship took me by surprise. I always thought I would have that self control. I was able to cut it off after a kiss. I'm in the process of trying to figure out why I did it. I say all this to say, I can now understand how common it is. You may think you're the kind of person to never do it, and then you surprise yourself (and not in a good way). Wow! You don't know how much I needed to hear that. I surprised myself too and I am totally suffering with my mental bashing and being perplexed about it. --- littleroom
Author littleroom Posted June 2, 2006 Author Posted June 2, 2006 The trick is finding someone to be with who has the SAME self-control and morals/values as you do. But you know, a lot of people DO marry someone like this, who they think will be true to them. People change, things happen. There is a recent poster here (Littletown?) who has fallen into an emotional affair yet is 100 percent in love with her husband. It's Littleroom and yes, this is true. I totally found myself in a tail spin over a co-worker who I have probably been way too close to for a long time (EA) and that recently carried over to a kiss... which I am trying to move past and forgive myself for. I come from a belief system of soul mates and true love etc. I don't know HOW or WHY I strayed. I still can't make sense of it. AND because I am spiritual, I am trying to find my way back to the road I was once on. Sorry... just needed to vent that out. --- littleroom
jerbear Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 I agree, and will take it farther and say that anyone who participates in an affair is "broken" in some way (and I say this as an xOW, as someone who had an affair in a long-term relationship, and as someone who has been cheated on, not in that order ). I work in an industry where there's a lot of business travel, and there are many guys who cheat who are very happy at home. They love their wives, their kids, their lives, and would be devastated if their wives found out. But they cheat, nonetheless, because they spend a lot of time in strange cities and empty hotel rooms...and they develop warm, friendly relationships with the women they work with...and the relationships turn from friends to flirting to EA and PA without even trying. A business dinner can be very similar to a date. Taking your hand to help you out of a taxi isn't so far from holding your hand. The lines start to blur. People get sucked in by their needs. The lonely hotel rooms are not an excuse, but the need for human contact is a need that some choose to address via affairs. It's just 'easier' to band-aid than to fix what's broken inside. I really like the post about empty hotel room and need for human contact. I have seen infidelity while traveling, to Vegas of all places. I was even involved in a ONS. I was a single guy then and she was an older cute financial corp exec and a MILF. In regards to EA's, it just hits you when you least expect it. A line is crossed, then the other feels somethings, and does a chase. Since "something" is there and the door opened, some people walk thru. I almost walked thru in one but talk to her. I personally want a romantic relationships before taking the relationship from an EA to EA w/ PA. Touche: Yes Just because the door is open does not mean one should walk thru. Life is not so easy, some guys would walk thru; there are a few women for me that if the door opened, I would walk thru while for some women I would not. Honestly, I do not know why I would walk thru the door for some.
Chump64 Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Good luck, Littleroom. I don't mean to sound condescending or to add to your pain, but just remember that once you cross a certain line -- IMO, either falling in love, or having sex -- lives are changed forever, and not just yours. But you probably already know that. Again, I wish you luck.
Chump64 Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Touche may find this interesting, and anyone else how thinks “emotional affairs” are not really infidelity. I don’t think it’s valid to compare a woman-to-woman friendship with a male-female relationship that has crossed questionable boundaries, but I doubt Touche will have a change of heart. Anyway, here goes: This is an online quiz about emotional affairs. http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php This article (long) talks about emotional affairs and also about the increase in women having affairs, etc. It’s long but worth the read. Dangerous liaisons: Work infidelities 04/30/2003 By KAREN M. THOMAS / The Dallas Morning News It happens like this: You're working long hours on a project. The co-worker you're teamed up with is funny, smart and, well, yes, attractive. But you're happily married with children, and straying is morally wrong and far from your thoughts. Or is it? Instead of eating dinner at home, you end up grabbing a quick bite with your colleague. Instead of confiding to your wife your deepest fear about work, you talk to your co-worker. Then one day you tell her that you and your wife are drifting apart. With work and tending to the children, you just don't talk anymore. Your colleague is a good listener. And she knows how you feel. She wishes her husband could be more open like you. It's late. Your hands touch, and there is a spark. It might take days, weeks or even months, but you slide from being "just" friends to becoming lovers. It's an old story with a new twist. Infidelity is blossoming at the workplace, says Dr. Shirley Glass, a psychologist from Maryland and infidelity expert who has written a new book, Not "Just Friends": Protect Your Relationship From Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal (Simon & Schuster, $25). "Men and women are forming strong relationships based on respect, common interests and working together in an environment that is either exciting or stressful, and that creates a strong bond," says Dr. Glass. "The relationships can become more personal, and then they become emotional affairs. If they slide further down the slippery slope, they are having sex with someone they are in love with. Certainly that is much more threatening to a marriage than casual sex," she says. According to Dr. Glass' research, 46 percent of unfaithful wives and 62 percent of unfaithful husbands in her practice over the last two decades had affairs with someone at work. And for women, the number of those having affairs has steadily grown -- from 1982 to 1990, 38 percent of unfaithful wives had work affairs compared with 50 percent of cheating wives from 1991 to 2000. Extramarital affairs have probably been around as long as marriage. But what has shifted over the last few decades is that women have grown up with greater sexual freedom, they hold positions of equal power with their male counterparts, and women are no longer financially dependent on their spouses, Dr. Glass says. But don't put the blame on working women. It takes two, and plenty of men are finding themselves sliding down that slippery slope, too. The current crop of cheating spouses has never strayed before, says Dr. Glass. And the affairs aren't necessarily happening because partners are trapped in horrible relationships. "What causes both men and women to get involved in workplace affairs is that so much of their energy and the best part of themselves is experienced at work. Then they come home depleted and have to give time to the children," she says. In her book, Dr. Glass hopes to make couples aware of the danger signs of deepening work friendships, as well as ways to help strengthen their committed relationships. She says that many couples are able to heal from infidelity, with time and help, and can build stronger relationships. Couples raising children appear to be the most vulnerable. In child-centered relationships, couples often are able to communicate about their children and running the household but no longer spend time working on their intimacy, Dr. Glass says. It's a notion that rings true with other marriage and family therapists. Andrew Bulino, a marriage therapist in Plano, says that he is seeing seven couples struggling with the trauma of an affair. "In all of these cases, there is no history of infidelity," he says. "They all have made fairly traditional decisions where the husband was the primary wage earner and the wife stayed home ... nurturing the children." Mr. Bulino says the men report that they feel low on their wives' list of priorities and that just as they emotionally begin to withdraw at home, intimacies begin with co-workers. "These aren't bad people who start out to have affairs. I ask, 'How did you give yourself permission to have an affair?' It doesn't matter who initiated the affair, the justification is: 'I am not important at home. We don't have any sense of closeness.' They don't want to hurt their spouses, but it does end up being a trauma," he says. Some emotional affairs can occur without sex, Dr. Glass says. She points to the growing number of Internet relationships. People share intimate thoughts with e-mail buddies that they don't share with their significant others. The conversation can become sexually arousing, and it can do damage. "People become so obsessed with them. They can't wait for a partner to go to sleep so they can rush down to the computer," Dr. Glass says. So can men and women be "just friends"? According to Dr. Glass, work-related friendships, or those anywhere else for that matter, can greatly enrich the lives of most couples. What the couples need to do, she says, is establish boundaries for friendships and find ways to keep emotionally connected with each other. "We need to have some walls in our friendships so that they don't become overly intimate or personal, and with our romantic relationships, it should be reversed," she says. "If a friend knows more about what is going on in our marriage than our spouse, it's a friendship that has gone astray." Lance Dunahoe, a flight attendant for American Airlines, hasn't read Dr. Glass' book, but he understands boundaries and echoes her advice. His wife, Danielle, is also a flight attendant. They have set clear boundaries for work and keep an open line of communication. "There's this whole perception of the airlines being loose, and it's really a lot more professional than that," says Mr. Dunahoe, who works on lengthy international flights. But he does acknowledge that, as in any workplace, affairs happen. "It's still such a social job, and you are talking about putting people in a confined area for a long time. Dynamics seem to accelerate in some way. Then, after a long day, you end up on a layover in Aruba, and there is a beautiful sunset. The whole crew goes for a beer, and you are in this romantic environment," he says. Mr. Dunahoe has a few simple boundaries: He never goes in a female flight attendant's hotel room alone. He keeps his marriage in mind whenever he speaks. And he and his wife openly share work stories. "My wife will come home and tell me about some idiot pilot who hit on her. And I just flew a trip and learned more about these two flight attendants' past sexual experiences than I ever wanted to know," he says. "You really have to define those boundaries for yourself in any relationship you have. When you can't talk is when you get in trouble."
Author littleroom Posted June 2, 2006 Author Posted June 2, 2006 Good luck, Littleroom. I don't mean to sound condescending or to add to your pain, but just remember that once you cross a certain line -- IMO, either falling in love, or having sex -- lives are changed forever, and not just yours. But you probably already know that. Again, I wish you luck. Don't even worry about it. I don't plan on crossing that line (even though in a sense I have with the kiss). I am trying very hard to pick up the pieces. Thanks... --- littleroom
grateful Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Wow! You don't know how much I needed to hear that. I surprised myself too and I am totally suffering with my mental bashing and being perplexed about it. --- littleroom Right back at you! This thread has helped me out quite a bit. I'm still struggling with the why of what I've done. Sometimes it seems harder to get a why out of yourself than someone else. Most of the cheating threads I read around here draw absolutes "cheaters could never really love their SO's" and the ever popular "once a cheater, always a cheater." I've felt sort of dismayed and have thought about posting a thread asking for help, but haven't felt stong enough to deal with the backlash. The responses your thread elicited - thoughtful, measured, balanced - have really helped me. These aren't new thoughts - I got some similar ones when I started my own thread - but it was helpful to revisit them in yours.
Chump64 Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Oh man, I missed this! And please, don't tell me you would really get plastic breast implants because your MM wants to go back to his wife. *Kinda* superficial, girlfriend. I think you should seriously evaluate your behaviour :laugh: Ok, sorry. Back on topic.
Chump64 Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 For Grateful: Are we allowed to pimp other websites here? There is a (seemingly) very supportive "wayward spouses" message board at Surviving Infidelity.
grateful Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 For Grateful: Are we allowed to pimp other websites here? There is a (seemingly) very supportive "wayward spouses" message board at Surviving Infidelity. Thanks Chump, I'll check it out - - I've been wanting to say to you that I also notice a strange, harsh treatment on these boards for BS's who choose to try to work on the marriage. It's really, really weird. And I find it sad because I'm in love with a BS who has done nothing wrong. The idea that you should try to understand the specific OW who had sex with your H is ludicrous to me (as I read in the Revenge thread). I just don't know what gets in to people's heads. As common as infidelity is, you would think more people would be supportive of the BS's who choose to work in the relationship. I think you are incredibly brave and I applaud you for your courage.
Chump64 Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Thank you, Grateful. You are right about this being a fairly hostile environment sometimes. There are a lot of things I don’t share b/c it’s generally not supportive here. I have other outlets though. I like this forum b/c I can give spy tips to people who suspect they are being cheated on. I suspect that may tick some people off and they like to go after me because of that.
ridingthebulls Posted June 2, 2006 Posted June 2, 2006 Isn't funny how it is supposed "human" nature when we (men and/or women) want multiple partners, YET WE (the same men and women who don't want monogomy for THEMSELF) CANNOT TAKE IT when we find out our long-term partner is having relationships on the side with multiple people. Therefore, usually it will NEVER work out to be anything other than monogomous. A man is NOT capable of wanting to share HIS territory/long-term woman with other men... even though he wants to be with other women. So if BOTH PARTIES had equal rights in the matter.. it just would never work.
Recommended Posts