Is Total Honesty possible?

[Chump64]

I don’t see myself as seething with rage. I was lied to when initial suspicions surfaced. I found suspicious emails and was told they were ‘workplace banter.’ Not many people end workplace banter with “LY” and “it will be good to see you soon.” I kept noticing that his phone and her work phones were tied up at the same time. Everything was conducted during the workday. There were no suspicious cell calls, credit card bills, no unaccounted for time away from the family. My choices were to live in limbo land without the truth – because believe me, *EXACTLY* like you, I tried repeatedly to get the truth and I smelled BS -- or to go stealth and find the truth myself.

 

How is it hateful to spy on someone who is suspected of lying about cheating on a marriage, when things look incredibly suspicious? That logic really baffles me. You make it sound like it is wrong to find out the truth, regardless of the means. You say that you would divorce before you placed hidden mics. Assuming you had what seemed like a pretty darn good marriage (which I thought was true, and many of our friends and acquaintances would agree), three kids, a mortgage, and 18 years of history, you would divorce someone based on two suspicious emails plus simultaneously busy phone lines? Don't you think people would question your sanity if you used that as grounds for divorce, with no other proof? Please, explain your thinking on this because I’m not getting it. Maybe it's easier for you to think about scrapping everything b/c you make it sound like there were major difficulties in your marriage before the affair. Not the case, here

 

Truth is, I was seething with rage at being lied to and knowing that I didn’t have the truth. I was just like you. YOU are seething with rage. You have said so yourself. I have found the truth. I am working through all the bullsh*t to see if we can clean out this wound and survive this tragedy. . Rage is part of it, yes, but it comes and goes along with grief, sadness, etc. If I am showing what you perceive to be rage, it’s because I hate to see people lie down and take the BS, and then turn around and defend the cheater.

 

You need to crap or get off the toilet. Either you want the truth or you don’t. I get frustrated with people who ask for advice here and then keep responding with excuses / end up arguing with those who give advice, trying – it appears – to convince themselves that things aren’t really so bad after all. That their spouse really isn’t lying, after all. That you have no proof (even though you earlier said you did – color me confused).

 

If you can live in limbo with that kind of denial, then by all means, do it. That’s where the rage seethes, as I can testify and as you have demonstrated. Knowing you are being duped and living with it / not being able to do anything about it.

 

I hope that you will find empowerment some day. It’s liberating to find out the truth and decide what you want to do about it – to be holding the cards for a change.

 

Again, I wish you luck and I'm sorry for harshin' on ya.

[Ladyjane14]

Like I said earlier, there are some folks who need all the details and some folks who don't. In my case, I was satisfied I knew the basic outline of what had happened. And I'll be honest.... I snooped until I did. (At the time, I needed to verify that I was dealing with an EA rather than a PA.)

 

After I had the basic sketch though, I didn't need to know any more. In fact, I began to find the search itself somewhat consuming and harmful. I had to MAKE myself stop checking.

 

Like you... I don't want somebody I have to babysit. If I feel like I have to monitor his behavior all the time, I don't want to be with him. So, I think it's okay to make your decision based on your own comfort level. The basic sketch has been filled in afterall.

 

It's up to you. Every BS muddles through as best they can. It's a painful process, and like any other situation in which we must address grief, we each do it at our own pace.

 

It might help you a bit to read through DazednConfused's old thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t40398/ Dazed was very forthcoming and eloquent in sharing his feelings after his wife's infidelity. It's an insightful thread.

 

 

 

 

p.s. to Carma...

 

There's a big difference between "teaching someone how to treat you" and 'game-playing'. Make sure you know what you're doing. It's gonna cost you if you don't.

[Chump64]

Well for the record, I have not "spied" on my husband since the day I busted him, almost 5 months ago. I agree that continuous spying, micromanaging and "babysitting" is insane. That is nuts and that is no way to live, and yes, I WOULD divorce him if I had that little faith in his attempts to reconcile, or if he even appeared to be on the fence for more than 24 hours after I confronted him. I am simply not dicking around with any further lies or BS, and yes, it angers me that people let this slide / let their cheating spouses continue to eat cake and hide truth. That might be the 'rage' that TD is sensing from me.

 

However, I am irritated by suggestions that spying -- to initially find out what is going on, and to know exactly what you are dealing with -- is somehow wrong or unwarranted. It boggles my mind for TallDark to say he would "divorce" his spouse before planting secret microphones. Why / how would you divorce someone without even having solid proof?

 

DOH.

 

I am not talking about lifeling spying. I am talking about finding out what you need to know to take control of your life / to take the reigns of power from the person who is cheating on and lying to you.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

64: I don't really feel like I'm living in denial here, but there comes a point, as ladyjane put it, that the search becomes all-consuming & damaging. LJ: Thanks for the input & ref. I can really relate to Dazed...

 

I don't really think I'm letting her off the hook. Yes, I'm f***ed up and confused and my wife has revealed more since I started this thread. But just because I don't see things through your lens doesn't mean I'm living my life in denial. I think we have different experiences and that DEF colours our world view. I cannot imagine how I would feel if I were in your shoes... I can really understand how you feel betrayed and honesty is critical for you. It is for me too, but as I have said, at some point, I have to say "ok, I trust that you have told me the truth", and hope that that is indeed the case.

 

I thought of editing my last post cuz I knew you would react to the "hateful/rage" comments. Lord knows I have, in my short time on this forum, encountered far more hateful comments than yours... and my reaction is less to what I have read here than on other threads ("revenge", etc). You did what you had to do; I know she has no more contact with the OM, so starting with spyware/keyloggers etc at this point seems like a waste of time. Lie detector? Just seems too extreme for me. Maybe I will feel differently in the future. Again: we all Do What We Have To Do.

 

You say I am defending my spouse; I would say more that I am trying to be as even-handed in my portrayal of her as possible. Calling her a BitchSlutWhore may feel good, (it DID! ) but it doesn't really carry the dialogue forward, if you see what I mean.

 

You're right. S*** or get off the pot. For now, I will accept what she has told me (with extreme prejudice). I remain suspicious and will need to be convinced that there are no more lies/deceit. As always, this will take time and effort, esp. on her part.

 

Thanks for your input. Forget the harshing: this forum acts like an internal dialogue for me, and your voice is important. I did not come here for polite conversation! Bring it on! But don't expect me to agree with you all the time.

 

Boy, this is good to talk about! This feels like the only outlet I have, and I sure appreciate you-all's input.

[Chump64]

Glad that you found an outlet that helps. And yes, we all see things differently, except that I am right.

 

KIDDING!

[carmaenforcer]

Glad that you found an outlet that helps. And yes, we all see things differently, except that I am right.

 

KIDDING!

 

No your not. j/k No I'm not.

 

We all find ways of coping and working through what upsets us. I am happy to have this forum to "let off steam" on. And I thank all for their input, patience and understanding of my rants.

 

Chump64, my folks stayed together through some nasty stuff and are still together to this day. Did my Dad give my Mom reasons to run, hell yes. Everyone that knew them and our situation would have well advised my Mom to seak a divorce or just leave him, but she didn't listen. I was raised by my grandmother from age 10 to 15 and so I had in effect lost my parents through a crutial time in my development. During this period I did have a great father figure, my uncle, the man who tought me honor and respect, how to be a good man.

 

No, a broken home doesn't automatically = a troubled future. Even though my father was around, if I would have followed his teaching/examples, I would be an alcoholic wife beater right now.

 

Although stinky, fly ridden, and something most would be hard pressed to avoid, a beautiful flower can grow from a pile of s***. Nothing in this world is completely bad or good, if we learn from it.

 

On that note, Chump64 I offer my sympathy for having to deal with a cheater, I know all to well what that feels like. I'm sure you are a great Mom, you sound inteligent and strong enough to even do it on your own if you had to. I hope that your husband wises up and that you and you whole family have a happy long life together though.

 

Even though my Dad was an ass in the past, now he is the sweetest person and her treats my Mom with the love and respect that she deserves. It took forever, but the day came. My wife and I have resolved the issue I was having with her that had me ranting on this thread. We finally talked yesterday, at her request. She wanted to discuss my feelings toward what she had done, I was honest and direct. She wishes I didn't feel the way I did but eventually a bit reluctently accepted that I did have good reason to feel as I did and acknowledged that she should respect my wishes, lest I ignore hers.

I stood my ground and won this fight, the battle for hapiness continues, always will.

 

Stand strong, TallDark.

[Trimmer]

Carma -

 

In your battle for happiness, I sincerely wish it will eventually come to pass that you and your wife will be fighting the battle on the same side. Then you may even find something worthy in the battle itself. Good luck...

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Hello all,

 

Thanks for the ongoing input.

 

Things are so f***ed up at the moment; sometimes I just KNOW that there's info that hasn't come out, sometimes I think that I just feel this way because I've been lied to for so long (oh, about 4 years re: this affair, and b4 that some small "white" lies about her past... "did you sleep with mutual friend before we were together?" ... "oh, no, just GOOD FRIENDS!"... 6 years later: "well actually, yes. BUT IT DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING." How many times have you heard THAT Bulls***?). Some days are ok and I can believe her, other days...

 

I have asked my W about her 1st marriage in an attempt to get some insight. She immediately gets defensive and tells me that this is none of my business. I reply that she is my partner: If she can't tell me, who can she tell? Denial is a river in Egypt, right? **%$#%$%!!!

 

How do you demonstrate how important emotional honesty is?

 

Every thread I have checked out here says essentially the same thing: You don't know the whole story, and possibly you never will. The WS is invested in the lies, and this is a tough habit to break. I am trying to find some way to live with that. I wish there was One Good Way of Doing Things, but there is not. I just know that EVERYTHING has to change. my W does not really see this yet.

 

The day-to-day stuff is what kills me. Sometimes I find myself just having a laugh with her and us enjoying ourselves, and *BANG* I remember that she opened her legs for another man, on (at least) 4 occasions. That kind of ruins the moment.

 

I am trying to be kind, forgiving, understanding, etc. But I get kind of short with the kids - I don't have as much patience with them now as I used to. And guess what? This makes ME the bad guy. And this really messes me up: the kids have some idea that things aren't great between us. It rips me apart that they, as complete innocents, should suffer. But EVERYBODY suffers - her family, my family, our friends... EVERYBODY is affected by the betrayal.

 

Carma, like I have said, I sometime fantasize about having (several) affairs. That'd show her, right? But I know in my heart of hearts that even if I did, it would not be the same. She had an affair for 2 years! Does me picking up some chick in a bar and getting my rocks off for one night with a stranger "make it even"??? No, of course not. Nothing will even things up. Who knows? I may end up having several affairs, but I have no illusions that these will ever fix anything, or make things better.

 

Your posts have changed over the course of this thread. You seem like an intelligent guy who's had his share of pain. I hope you find your way.

 

64: Didn't realise you are just 5 months in. My deepest sympathy, and I can really see where you're coming from. Again, I hope you can find a way to live a happy/content life, with or without him. 10 years of betrayal is a big stone. In no way do I mean to minimise that. And yes, you have an absolute right to know what you are dealing with. We Do What We Have To Do.

 

I need to get away for awhile. I think separation is the thing to do for me.

Maybe it's not the Right Thing To Do (see above), but I feel so damn isolated here. This also seems the clearest way to explain how unhappy I am to my W.

 

OK, enough spewing for now. Comments gratefully welcome. TIA.

[Chump64]

Carma, thank you for your nice comments. You seem like a very sweet guy. I hope your wife starts to realize what she has.

 

TD, I know what you mean about the 'payback' feeling. It's all so unfair. And even though I know my husband has his own pain and demons to deal with, it feels like he had all the fun, sex and companionship, and I get to pick up all the broken glass. Or I can choose not to, and boot him, but will that cause any less pain for any of us? (including my kids) It's a struggle to decide wehther you love someone enough to see beyond all the BS they pulled on you / all their flaws. At least my husband is working to figure out his issues. It might be too late though.

 

The day-to-day stuff is what kills me. Sometimes I find myself just having a laugh with her and us enjoying ourselves, and *BANG* I remember that she opened her legs for another man, on (at least) 4 occasions. That kind of ruins the moment.

 

Have you read any books about recoveirng from infidelity? This is a common one-step-forward, two-steps-back phenomena. You start to feel close to and happy with your spouse, and then some sort of defense mechanism says, "wait, this person burned you and may do it again - be careful," so you pull back. All you can really do is be aware of it and give it time.

 

Sometimes I regret not separating, at least temporarily. Maybe that will really help you clear your head.

[carmaenforcer]

TallDark, the fact that you have kids of coarse makes things that much more dificult for you. Don't concern yourself with what others ideals are about you being a good father above your own pain, you are human first and in being human you can't avoid the pain that you naturally feel and the way that makes you act out. As I've stated before, you can not win the "player" game with a woman no matter how good looking and charming you are, a woman always has the advantage and can do things a lot faster and with having to invest less of herself that us men do. If you have a one night stand or an afair, do so to make yourself feel good, not to get back at your woman, she will only do it to you worse and you will just end up more hurt than when you started. There are other ways of making her pay (hurt) that she can't get back at you as easilly on, if that's what you want. But payback on it's own is a hollow victory at best. The goal should be to punish as a correctional tool, training her that bad behavior begets bad treatment.

If you don't want to play the punishment game or leave the marriage because of the kids or the fact that you still have hopes, don't. You do need to find your center, your strength, if you are going to survive this environment. Take a trip, pick up a hobby that makes you happy and helps you get away from and forget your Wife/Wife and kids. Allow yourself to be a little selfish, you deserve it. Whatever the case don't let her or this type of situation break you, learn yes, grow yes, but don't let it consume you.

 

Trimmer, thanks. Yeah, the gole is to be fighting on the same side but even then there has to be a chain of command or at least rules of conduct. Some day, I hope this will be the case.

 

Chump64, No, thank you for the honesty, please keep it up, with me and yourself.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Hi all,

 

OK, I have done it. I've got 5 weeks of contract work in another country. I'll come back for a planned long weekend trip with the family, but probably not more during that period.

 

I'll probably be working my a** off, and be making decent money. I haven't mentioned this before, but I got fired from my job (not my fault, just downsizing) around the time my W started her PA. I also f***ed up my leg snowboarding then, so trouble comes in threes, right? Real hit to the old self-esteem.

 

I think if just the A had happened I would be better able to deal, but NOTHING seems secure in my life now, everything has been a struggle, except for my kids. Everything seems to be up in the air at this point...

 

Feeling very ambivalent about going, lots of open talks with W about this... I have no I idea how I will feel when I come back, I don't want to be away from my kids for so long... but that is just the way it is at the moment. I feel like I have to get my life back on track before I can deal with anything else.

 

I hope I can feel differently about W soon, but I need some evidence of effort from her...what that will look like I do not know.

 

BTW, I just want to say I will waste no time worrying about the OM: I have read some threads here where the BS practically blames everything on the OM, that the WS has nothing to do with it. The WS is just as if not more responsible for her own actions. It seems like such a cop-out to act as if they are just an object that was used by the OM. This mostly seems to be the case where BS = male, but either way, wasting energy on someone outside the relationship is picking the wrong target.

Just a small rant, wish me luck...

[TheTallDarkStranger]

PS

64: Thanks for the tip, will do some reading while "on tour".

I am generally suspicious of that genre of literature, but at this point, anything that could possibly help.

[Chump64]

BTW, I just want to say I will waste no time worrying about the OM: I have read some threads here where the BS practically blames everything on the OM, that the WS has nothing to do with it. The WS is just as if not more responsible for her own actions. It seems like such a cop-out to act as if they are just an object that was used by the OM. This mostly seems to be the case where BS = male, but either way, wasting energy on someone outside the relationship is picking the wrong target.

Just a small rant, wish me luck...

 

 

TallDark, I agree with this almost 100 percent. I have little time for people who focus ONLY on their spouse's affair partner. But I do have days when I think mean thoughts about the OW / think about "revenge," partly b/c she had been a friend for 15 years.

 

I can't remember what I recommended for you to read but "Not Just Friends" is my best pick.

 

Enjoy your time away. Maybe it will be just what you two need.

[MsColorado]

Chump, I agree with you. There is really no point blaming the OW except for the fact that she was your friend! My best friend and I often say that while infidelity is a heartbreaker it's so much worse when your spouse is with a friend or sister! I think in that case I'd feel almost more betrayed by my friend or sister than by my spouse. I have a very close circle of friends and I could never imagine one of them even contemplating doing that to me. In some ways, I'm tighter with my best friend than with anyone else so the loss and betrayal would be enormous. I can only imagine what you are going through. From your posts, you seem very strong. Your husband should be thanking his lucky stars you're even still with him!

[Chump64]

Thanks for the kind words, Colorado.

 

She was not a super close friend. I am lucky to have a closer circle of a few tight friends so that helps. We got together with the OW and her husband 3-4 times a year and for big events, like birthdays, graduations, etc. I feel really bad for her husband. He is a super guy, and they have been married even longer than we have.