Is Total Honesty possible?

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Hello all, 1st post newbie here...

 

My wife & I have been married for 10 years. We met while we were both living in a foreign country. We eventually got married, and had 2 beautiful children. She's a good mother, and we have had some good times together.

 

About 6 years ago we moved the family to her homeland. This was done with my consent, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, especially for the kids. I have learned the language, I socialise with her friends & family, & have tried my best to fit in. Despite this, I have come to feel somewhat isolated.

 

Now I find out that she had a long affair. I suspected this 2 years ago and asked her about it; she denied everything. I sneaked into her email and found a cozy message from a man. I confronted her and she admitted she had been seeing someone, but it was strictly platonic, no sex.

 

She finally admitted it a month ago. It started when they met on a course, and they started emailing each other, then meeting up, and eventually slept together twice. UNPROTECTED SEX, though she did have a spiral, so pregnancy was unlikely, anyway.

 

During this time, she & I were going to marriage counselling, and the issue never came up. She also went to a therapist for a short time, and did not mention the affair to him either(!).

 

She has also been dishonest with me in the past (tho' I think this has been her only affair). Despite the fact that I am devastated, I really do appreciate that she finally came clean. But I still feel she's not told me the whole story. I looked through her email (again) and found strong evidence that she has edited the story.

 

Here is my question: DOES IT REALLY MATTER if I don't have the whole story? I feel I deserve the truth but feel that it would be best for her to say it herself, rather than me proving her a liar again. I am very upset & think if I knew she was telling me everything I would be less angry with her... and I'm pretty angry.

 

Comments?

[Bryanp]

I think it matters a great deal. You wife has a history of lying to you and not telling you the truth. She lies to marriage counselors and to her own therapist.

I am sorry but she is an habitual liar. I would seriously doubt she has unprotected sex only two times. She has had a long term affair and had no problem lying and cheating on you for a long extended peiriod. I would strongly urge the both of you to get tested for STD's. I don't know how you could ever feel secure knowing that you are married to a woman who constantly lies to you and never tells you the whole truth and had no problem being in a long term sexual affair. The bottom line is that you are living with a dishonest wife who apprently has no intention of ever being open and honest with you. I think this is a terrible way to have you live your life.

[Chump64]

I do think total honesty is necessary for true recovery. I also think that what you have learned, so far, is only the tip of the iceberg. Sorry, but that is usually the case. Do you think she is still carrying on? I know you said that you are accessing her email, but does she have other, secret, web-based accounts?

 

My husband lied his butt off to me. I had no choice but to do my own investigating. Only when the evidence was thrown in his lap and he was told to fess up or get out, was he 100 percent honest. You need to go balls to the wall to get the honesty. I can offer some investigative tips if you are interested. There are lots of ways to spy on a suspected cheater, and some of them are simpler and cheaper than you’d think. Don’t bother with a private investigator, by the way.

 

Once you find out all the details of an affair, you may get to the point where other questions about other details come to mind. You may decide at some point that you need no more answers, that there is already enough broken glass and that minor unanswered questions don’t matter. Your questions don’t sound minor though, unfortunately.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Thank you for your replies - I really hear what both of you are saying, although I still want to try and salvage this relationship. She is not a bad person.

 

Like I said, I feel like I have to give her credit for 'fessing up - I think it took a lot of courage for her to do that, and I furthermore understand the temptation to edit a story to make it less horrifying. But it is important to know that in the future she will be honest with me.

 

We had a long talk last night and she admitted to having sex on two other occasions, and she insists that that was it, now I know everything. I still have doubts and some proof.

 

I have confronted her with an email that is proof she is still being dishonest with me, though I HATE doing that. I feel that confronting her in this way just makes it harder for her to be honest.

 

But I did it anyway, so there you go!

 

As before, comments are appreciated!

[Chump64]

You are far nicer than I would be, in that situation. When I knew my husband was lying, I wanted to rip his balls off and shove them down his throat. And once I had clear evidence in hand, I would have kicked him to the curb and made him grovel back over time, had it not been for three kids.

 

Your wife may not be a bad person, but she is not a healthy person and she is behaving badly. I hope the anger and self preservation kicks in for you, because being too nice can essentially condone her ongoing messed up behavior.

 

Good luck.

[Bryanp]

This is so typical of a cheating spouse. They swear they told you everything and then are forced to change their story. My guess is that she still has not told you the entire truth. The fact that you had to confront again about another lie indicates that she is just telling you what she feels she absolutely has to. After all of this and you are still catching her lying is a very bad sign.

 

You seem like a really nice guy who is also in denial. Again she has had a long term sexual affair and continues to lie to you about it. Please get tested for STD's. I simply do not know how or why you would wish to trust her if she continues to get caught in lies to you. I think you deserve better. I am afraid this is just the tip of the iceberg what she has told you.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Thanks again.

 

She insists that she has told me everything, and I have no evidence to the contrary. What can I do? Do I just keep harrassing her until my gut tells me I have the whole truth? I do not know what to do here. She is not in contact with this person anymore.

 

64, I AM angry, & have very uncharitable thoughts about this person, just so you know. But I am trying to stay level for the sake of the kids AND both of us. i have already flown off the handle and (at the moment) I am clear I want to give her another chance. At the same time I have been very clear that I will settle for nothing less than the truth. That is the only place we can start reconciling from.

 

I am planning on moving out for awhile; work is calling in another city.

I hope some space and a chance to have a bit of my own life back will change my feelings. I cannot change this person; I can only have a different perspective on her.

 

Again, I appreciate your obviously heartfelt posts!

[Chump64]

A few questions:

 

What leads you to believe you don't have the full truth? You sound skeptical of that, yet you also sound like you are trying to convince us that she has told you everything.

 

How do you know she is no longer in contact with him? Do you know this to be absolutely true (well, if that's possible)?

 

Have you two been in counseling? If not, give it a shot. When you do it, make sure the counselor knows you doubt her truthfulness. Make a list of questions that frame your doubts / suspicions.

 

How will moving out help, if you want to reconcile? That will only give her more secrecy and make it easier for her to carry on or re-ignite.

 

Does the other man's spouse know about the affair (assuming the man is married)? If not, that has to happen ASAP.

 

 

Look, my husband told me that these flirty emails between he and another woman were "workplace banter." Turns out they had a 10-year emotional and physical affair going on. Remember the iceberg.

[carmaenforcer]

My Wife was and still is a liar. She cheated on me before and then eventually "came clean", telling me the whole truth. There really wasn't any way for me to get the answers for myself so I accepted it and simply ask her never to lie to me again.

She keeps lying; I just caught her in one yesterday. No cheating or anything like that but still a lie revolving around talking to a guy that I have issue with her talking to without telling me. Her Best Friend accidentally ratted her out.

I didn't make a big deal about it at the moment because her Best Friend, Her and I were waiting to go out to dinner with another friend from Laguna Beach that we haven't seen in a while and I didn't want to ruin the evening with my attitude, but she knew she had screwed up.

 

I'm hurt and just tired of trying with her. I think it's time for pay back and making the playing field even again.

 

TheTallDarkStranger, Do what ever you think you need to do, if you want to forgive her and go on with your life, go ahead, I did, but know that she might keep letting you down.

 

I am having a baby with my Wife, she is pregnant right now and I don't want to do the whole absentee parent thing or else I'd dump her right now. I really have no choice but to stay around but I hate her so much for lying and am her enemy right now. She is in for me hurting her, first chance I get.

[Chump64]

She is in for me hurting her, first chance I get.

 

Sorry Carma, this will be harsh.

 

That's so messed up and dysfunctional. It just makes me so sad for your kid. Do you think that's a better solution than divorcing, assuming she won't fix things and quit lying? Do you think that's a good environment in which to raise a child? Instead of having two parents who aren't in the same household, your child will have two parents in the same household, with lovers in other households and lies everywhere inbetween? Start saving for your kid's therapy bills right now.

 

You don't have to be an absentee parent. There's this thing called 50/50 custody.

[carmaenforcer]

No please, Chump64, never hold back with me I like brutal honesty.

If you are right I will appreciate the correction but if I'm right I love a good argument.

 

I've been there and done that with the whole split household thing and I never want to go through that again. There is nothing more painful than to be a part time Dad, so I am not going anywhere.

She will always have the chance of correcting her behavior; I just don't feel strong enough to talk about it with her right now. I am a firm believer in swift harsh but fair punishment for negative behavior. I want my kids to know this and follow it, you do wrong and there will be negative consequences.

 

I didn't say I was going to cheat on her for lying; I didn't cheat on her when she cheated on me before. I don't believe in getting in a tit for tat fight with a cheating woman. It's too easy for you guys to get some for that to be effective. I mean, I'm a good looking guy but it's too much work to try to keep up with how many of her guy friends or coworkers she can get to sleep with her. Girls are too good at the whoring game for a guy to win against them.

No I know how to hurt her way deeper than that, I take away the other things that make her happy in the relationship. Take away the man she loves.

I already started last night and today and she is already complaining. Before I'm done with her she will be taking inventory as to what she could have done wrong and taking care of it herself. I've done it before and it always works like a charm. Where I made my mistake is that I got too comfortable and was treating her too good without getting her to show that she deserved it. I was spoiling her only because I love her and then she got pregnant and the spoiling got worse and then she got cocky. Now, it's reality check time.

 

No, when I do cheat on her it will be because of her sexual neglect, selfishness and inconsideration, not because of her indiscretions.

[mental_traveller]

You're being an idiot - you are trying to turn a compulsive liar and cheater into an honest woman. Sorry but the odds are stacked against you, it just isn't going to happen. People like that don't suddenly change into honest caring morally sound individuals overnight.

 

The plain truth is that you married a lying, cheating slut. The only way you can rectify that is to kick her to the curb. If you don't, then you can expect to get lied to and be cheated on again. Your call, but this time you can't say you weren't warned.

[Chump64]

I'm a little more optimistic than Mental Traveller. I think things can turn around, but only if she is willing. If she is on the fence or continues to lie, give an ultimatim. She may not think you are serious or tht she has really been "caught." If you have proof and she still screws around, then yeah, kick her to the curb.

[catgirl1927]

I am having a baby with my Wife, she is pregnant right now and I don't want to do the whole absentee parent thing or else I'd dump her right now. I really have no choice but to stay around but I hate her so much for lying and am her enemy right now. She is in for me hurting her, first chance I get.

 

Wow. That sounds like a very healthly environment for a child.

[carmaenforcer]

I should clarify; I didn't catch her cheating again or even talking to someone with intentions of doing some thing like that. The guy friend that she talked to is a friend that from middle school that I had issue with. I've told this story before. You guys can read old posts or threads I've written about the subject if you wish, but it's more of a respecting my wishes thing than an infidelity thing.

 

Yeah, Chump64 I think like you do, things can get better.

Her Best Girl Friend and her have a sick infatuation with this guy her BGF is trying to get them three to meet up for dinner without his Wife, me or her own boy friend. I'm waiting to see what she does with that because I already made it clear that I want her to care more about what I want than what her BGF or this guy wants. If she does disregard my wishes I will simply not feel bad about riding my motorcycle. She's been stressing about the summer time and me riding. I had promised her that if we started a family I would stop riding because she already dealt with me having a near fatal accident, but if she breaks her promise then all bets are off.

 

No worries, I don't sweat people like mental. I looked on his history of posts and seeing where the opinion was coming from I don't blame his comments. Someone that has "chosen" to stay single usually has unrealistic ideals of how things should work. The fact that they haven't been able to make it work in their own life must be the other persons fault, because they have it all figured out.

 

catgirl, I am a parent of two beautiful intelligent children and I am a pretty god loving father. One of them is the best kid, kind, caring, polite despite his crank junky, whore of a mother. I believe that hardships and overcoming adversity make a person more well rounded than someone that is surrounded by nothing but Disney films and religious morals. I have a friend raised by a set of parents that did all in their power to raise her and her sister all goodie goodie and they can't handle anything in life, they are both in therapy for stuff that I just squash or know how to deal with. I spent my early years with an alcoholic, wife beating father, was abandoned at an early age and forced to live in another country with my grandmother, going to church four times a week, working an orchard by myself. Later back in the state I spent my teen years in a gang, drug, and violence infested area and never let it change me for the worst. I think I turned out pretty good, better for what I've been through. My children will benefit from what I learned about life and not grow up weak and ready to quit or run away from their problems.

Not that I give a s*** what others think about my methods or beliefs.

[catgirl1927]

I didn't mean to flame. I'm just sad for you and for them. I hope things get better.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

Wow - this seems to have hit a nerve with folks here.

 

64, just want to respond to you: No, I can never know if she is being totally honest with me. But she knows she screwed up and seems sincere enough to change things. I can follow her around and check up on her constantly, but ultimately I don't want to do that - I don't think that's healthy. At some point I will have to forgive her and trust her - otherwise why stay in the relationship? As for a bit of time apart, I need it for my own sanity, so I can feel less isolated. If she cheats on me when I'm away, again: then it's over. But I will give her the benefit of the doubt. ("sucker" I hear 90% of you say...)

 

Carma: I have my fantasies about punishing her, having a wild affair(s); I can't say what I'm going to do, but I doubt it will make things better. I have found that just meeting and talking to women (no, not EAs) has improved my self-esteem; maybe just some flirting will be enough for me to get my mojo back.

 

*****I don't want to end up a bitter person!*****

 

I want to have a loving, meaningful relationship where trust and mutual respect grow over time! I am willing to go through a tremendous amount of s*** for that.

 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but as far as I see it, forgiveness is the only road (other than to split). It'll take time, and I'm no way near ready to forgive yet, but that's what I'm aiming for.

[Ladyjane14]

Your wife really isn't all that different from other cheaters. The majority of them will NEVER tell the entire truth. And like most BS's, everything you get out of them has to be drawn out bit by bit. It's not a fun process for either of you.

 

If it helps at all, I truly believe it's Fear that keeps the WS reticent. Fear indicates that they care about the outcome and that they're still invested in the relationship.

 

It's up to you if you can live with not having all the details. Some folks can, and some folks can't. I do believe that once a BS has awakened to the potential for further infidelities, you can't really put the horse back in the barn. IOW, now that you're aware.... you won't be fooled very easily again. If your wife decides to resume cheating, she won't be able to get away with it for very long. So as a source of future anxiety, I think you can put that one away. The trust you need to embrace in that regard is trust in YOU. Faith that you'll recognize any problems the future might hold and that you'll handle whatever comes up.

 

 

 

 

p.s. to Carma...

 

What the heck???

You realize don't you, that if you make your marriage into some kind of game of one-upsmanship it'll end up looking like the devil's own 3-ring circus. Guess who gets to play the clown???

 

Surely you can both do better that. You're going to be parents for pete's sake. How about a little TLC for one another during what is otherwise a very stressful time in family development?

[Chump64]

TallDark: Your initial question was: Do I need the whole story? We are all telling you that yes, you do, and you are coming back here to say no, you don’t. What was the point of asking?

 

Anyway, I think that most people do, if they are going to try to reconcile, and to do it right. I’d hate to see you waste time thinking everything’s ok in your mind, and have it come back to bite you in a few years. If it doesn’t matter to you that you don’t have the whole story, then have at it. If you would rather proceed with blinders and assume that the wound will just stop festering on its own, go for it. But IMO, for a healthy reconciliation, the wound needs to be aggressively cleaned out, treated, and allowed to heal slowly and painfully. At least that’s the approach we are taking, and even then, we will be damn lucky if we survive.

 

I also have to ask, what kind of a person are you, emotionally? Are you expressive and insightful? Or do you mainly keep your emotions in check? Would you call yourself “emotionally available”? Because the desire to treat an affair on the surface only – to say, “Oh well, I have to forgive and move on, despite the details” – that’s the approach I’d expect to see from someone who is emotionally unavailable. And now hear this: Affairs are never the fault of the betrayed spouse. But the betrayed spouse can take some responsibility for the state of the marriage. If you are an emotionally unavailable guy, this could be a huge factor in the state of your marriage.

 

Frankly, it sounds like you want to fix your marriage but you don’t want to do the hard work that’s involved. I hope that I’m wrong though, and that ignoring the details works for you. I know that I would be a lot more bitter if I didn’t know exactly what happened, especially if my spouse was still being deceitful. On the day I confronted my husband, it was all or nothing. Tell me every detail and not one more freaking lie, or you are out of the house.

 

Don't make truth an option.

 

 

 

Carma: You sound like a pretty good guy who is completely consumed by anger. I don't buy your theory that a broken home is all that awful, especially when compared with a home where the parents are in constant turmoil. I wish you'd grow the stones to leave her and find someone better. You deserve it.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

64:

 

We have been through the interrogation so many times, and I have said that I need the whole story. I have banged on about this relentlessly, and I have made my feelings known. There does come a point when I have to assume I am being told the truth.

 

If anything, I am TOO emotionally avaiable, and she has always felt backed into a corner - she has trouble understanding the concept of emotional honesty. I don't need to know every feeling she has every had, just what happened in the affair. Emotional honesty has been a problem even before the affair. She puts up walls.

 

With regard to your coment re: the state of the marriage, I was probably pretty resentful of her for not being totally honest or available to me, and I felt resentful for feeling needy. I would try & play it cool with her but of course I was just broadcasting my anger. In this regard, I will not continue to be the partner who initiates every emotional exchange.

 

Part of the problem may be cultural - she comes from a very conservative family, farmers, and lots of stuff doen't get talked about.

 

So here we are: she says I have the truth, and at some point I will have to take her word. My eyes are open and I just hope I'm not being taken in. I have made my position abundantly clear in this regard. The truth is not an option, but I have no choice at this point to accept what she says.

[carmaenforcer]

catgirl sometimes flame is the only thing that can truly remove impurities. Yeah flame hurts but it also teaches a lesson not easily forgotten.

 

Ladyjane I'm a firm believer in conditioning your partner to be more the person you need in your life. Women talk about doing it all the time, their weapons/tools may be different but the goal is the same. Withholding sex or the silent treatment doesn't work for all people or all circumstances.

I am careful not to play the back and forth game too much but sometimes it's unavoidable.

 

Chump64, We are not in "constant" turmoil, but you are right I do get consumed by anger. Not completely consumed for there is always the core of me that remains. In this core I find forgiveness and tolerance, but I get tire of having to forgive and tolerate too much. Most of the time we share in an intense love for each other,it's what has helped us stay together through the nastiness we've gone through. She has her moments as does everyone, sometimes holding true and being the best of partners and sometimes straying and hurting own union. She doesn't think that I know as much as I do but I've noticed her back peddling a bit of the stuff that she was doing wrong. I have hinted to her that I am keeping close eye on her actions and that her happiness in this relationship is tied to mine, if I am not happy she will feel it.

I don't know how well you know the affects that a broken home has of the kids and the future of the parents as individuals but it's a horrible thing. Girls that grow up without a father figure have certain issues that ones with a strong father in the house don't as much the same is true with the boys. Not to be forgotten of trivialized is the happiness and future of the parents as individuals, life is much harder for a single parent, to not just survive but to move on and have a chance of something happy and long lasting.

I feel energy is better spent on fixing what's wrong that running away, although running away is the easier answer, it's not the best.

After letting off some steam, I am able to think clearer and make better decisions. Unfortunately for my fellow LSers this forum has become a place to let off some of that steam.

 

Thank you all for you concern and advice. I just want you to know that I appreciate it.

[Chump64]

Let off as much steam as you want.

 

I am from a "broken home." I am purdy damn good, if I say so myself. Well, except for my cheating rat bastard husband. But I'm a good mom, I have a couple degrees under my belt, I'm successful in my job, and I think I pretty well adjusted. I don't buy the notion that broken home automatically = troubled future.

 

I agree that life as a single parent would not be easy. I just might be one some day. I will definitely be one, if my husband ever cheats again. No lookin' back.

[Chump64]

TallDark: I don’t mean to bust your chops or come off as harsh, but you are sending so many mixed messages. Honestly, figure out whether you believe her or not. It’s not clear from your posts.

 

 

She insists that she has told me everything, and I have no evidence to the contrary. What can I do? Do I just keep harrassing her until my gut tells me I have the whole truth?

 

 

We had a long talk last night and she admitted to having sex on two other occasions, and she insists that that was it, now I know everything. I still have doubts and some proof.

 

 

I have confronted her with an email that is proof she is still being dishonest with me, though I HATE doing that. I feel that confronting her in this way just makes it harder for her to be honest.

 

 

 

So you do have proof, or you don’t? I’m confused.

 

****

 

I am very upset & think if I knew she was telling me everything I would be less angry with her... and I'm pretty angry.

 

 

I have made my position abundantly clear in this regard. The truth is not an option, but I have no choice at this point to accept what she says.

 

 

So you just want to stay angry and drop your pursuit of the truth? Then why do you bother to ask if it’s ok to have partial truths, and just carry on the marriage? Do you expect it will be a healthy marriage? I can’t envision that, considering the anger you’ve voiced here.

 

You don’t need to tail her 24/7 or live your life monitoring her. You do need to figure out exactly what happened and what you are dealing with (just my opinion). Demand the full truth or dump her. Give her some ultimatums. Full disclosure of divorce decree -- she picks. It worked for me. Take her for a lie detector test if she insists that you have full truth. Might cost you 500 bucks, but it'll be well spent.

 

Maybe you can be happy with partial truths. I am someone who is not – not in my marriage, anyway. I was determined to get the truth, even if it meant bugging office phones (check), bugging cars (check), hacking into email accounts (check). I was certainly prepared to take him for a lie detector test, had I not found the hard evidence I needed. (I did all of this and I am certainly not a techno-geek or an expert in spy equipment, but where there's a will, there's a way.) I guess I just couldn’t settle for half truths. I honestly hope that you can, but based on your conflicting posts here, I’m not convinced.

 

I really do wish you luck and I'm sorry if I sound uber militant.

[TheTallDarkStranger]

>Sigh<

 

I thought I had proof of another meeting, but she has denied this.

 

Like you say Ladyjane: at least I am wiser, and less likely to be duped again. And she is scared to death. Read below for some refs to yr post.

 

64: Yes, I'm really confused and hurt. This has all happened in the last 6 weeks. The truth has taken years to come out, and it's a bitch. But it came unprompted; she fessed up, and I have to give her credit for that. Then she admitted (more? the rest?) under some pressure from me. I don't know if we've come to the bottom yet, but she has no reason to hide anything else from me. She knows I was unhappy living in her country even before the affair, and she's scared to death that I'm just going to walk out. At this point, I'm not sure myself, and I have made that crystal clear. Certainly, if more came out NOW, after all the threats, etc, I would get that much closer to leaving. Every lie makes me trust her less. At the moment I think letting her feel as unsure about me as I did about her is punishment enough.

 

I sent her a scorching email the other day, re-re-re-REiterating why the truth is CRITICAL; but rather than end with a threat, I told her I loved her and am willing to try & make it work.

 

Each day is a struggle on how I should live with this person; I just have to take things one day at a time. Maybe there's stuff she hasn't told me, I don't know. It certainly makes it hard to know when the deception has gone on so long. But *maybe* she really has come clean. We'll just have to see; I think my gut feelings will inform me of that. I'm gonna give it some time.

 

There has been enough resentment and pissiness in this relationship before the Affair; time to try a different approach; I sick of being so resentful! In a way, I feel like she has written me a blank check - I can, with good conscience, up and leave at any point, if it comes to that. This is empowering.

 

I'm sorry, but for me, I would rather divorce than resort to hidden mics and the like. It was demeaning enough rummaging through her mail. The truth is very important, but if I have to resort to that? Forgive me for saying this, but it seems hateful. You seem really cool and I like a lot of what you say, but you are *SEETHING* with rage! It sounds like you have damn good reason to be angry, but it will eventually destroy you if you don't let go of it.

 

Not that I'm not seeting and hateful often enough these days myself...

 

[Sup]

If YOU want proof..... Install a keylogger! Get one that works in the background, that doesn't slow the computer down, and IS undetectable but by YOU!