Author Vertex Posted May 22, 2006 Author Posted May 22, 2006 To be honest with you she sounds like a total dud . But nevertheless it's much easier for a girl if you simply do not ask and simply make a suggestion and leave no room for any negotiation. Although i'm not saying leave NO room for negotiation. Basically always assume to be expected to make the decision... if a girl objects it means she wants something else ;-). I had a LTR like this once. I would always ask "what do you want to do?" and she would reply "what do you want to do?". Should we go there, what do you think? I don't know, what do you think? It was ANNOYING as hell. Until i just told myself, now i'm just going to start making decision on the fly, whether it's the right one or not. So i did and things were A LOT simpler after that. In fact dating in general has been much simpler since! As it seems a lot of women don't really know what they want, and rather have you make decisions. Though complaining afterwards is something i would describe as "nagging". Oh god, yes. Haha. Thing is she'd never have anything else in mind if I'd ask her. She simply resorted to a default of staying in the dorm room hanging out online, with the occasional romp in the bed... not that I complain about the latter, but I mean if all you do is stay in the dorm room and be bored, it makes for a very boring weekend. It was frustrating though that she'd never have ideas of her own, let alone accept mine. I also think you're right about decision making. Women in general seem to like a decisive man but not a controlling man who allows no room for negotiation.
KittenMoon Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 Perhaps I can explain my reasoning then... maybe it will elucidate things, hopefully. I want to be in a committed relationship at this age because the idea of casual dating and random hookups seem superficial to me. I don't like the idea of "just having fun" fully knowing that at some point you will have to break from them. It seems like there is a much stronger friendship in a committed relationship. I like the idea of having someone you know everything about -- someone who you can depend on and trust and have fun with. It isn't like passion and lust disappear in such relationships either -- you can still be as naughty if not moreso than in a random hookup! I mean it seems like most of it revolves around the idea of having a really good friend -- when you look at your close, long-term friends, you probably see them very fondly. You've had a history together and know each other much more deeply than you would if they were just short-term friendships. I like being the object of someone's desires... there's nothing better than the feeling of being in love with someone you admire greatly. I would not say any of this derives from an insecurity or neediness. If I wanted to get into random hookups I probably could, but I don't see what I'd get from them. Vertex- Sometimes I read your posts and wish you were a few years older. You sound like you are probably a level or two higher in maturity than most of your peers- I can relate. Not that what they are doing is wrong, but it can be really hard to want at your age what most of your peers won't desire for several more years. But stay tough- either you'll find a girl truly on your level, or the ones around you will begin to catch up in a few years. I'd say try slightly older girls, but speaking as one, I'd be skittish to date a guy still in school, who could very well change a whole lot over the next several years. Still- I wish you luck.
Author Vertex Posted May 22, 2006 Author Posted May 22, 2006 Vertex- Sometimes I read your posts and wish you were a few years older. You sound like you are probably a level or two higher in maturity than most of your peers- I can relate. Not that what they are doing is wrong, but it can be really hard to want at your age what most of your peers won't desire for several more years. But stay tough- either you'll find a girl truly on your level, or the ones around you will begin to catch up in a few years. I'd say try slightly older girls, but speaking as one, I'd be skittish to date a guy still in school, who could very well change a whole lot over the next several years. Still- I wish you luck. LOL how old are you? And yes you are correct -- I'm not saying my peers are wrong, but just that I don't feel like I fit into that frame very well at all. I mean I've done the casual relationships before and they just were not all that great. As for changes, this was a big concern regarding life in general recently. However, I do feel as if changes were in a positive result. My father died right as I was entering college, which in itself was a transitional period coupled with just more transition, but I feel like it's taught me quite a bit. Even the most negative of situations can be looked at positively. Regardless, life is always full of changes. My exgf used to tell me that the relationship was too hard for her because she could not deal with change. But, admittedly, you cannot avoid change in life. There will always be transitions -- always periods where people change, but as long as core traits and values do not alter drastically, then change is simply something dealt with dynamically, which is what all good couples are able to do. LOL sorry for the minirant.
fourfingers Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 Perhaps I can explain my reasoning then... maybe it will elucidate things, hopefully. I want to be in a committed relationship at this age because the idea of casual dating and random hookups seem superficial to me. I don't like the idea of "just having fun" fully knowing that at some point you will have to break from them. It seems like there is a much stronger friendship in a committed relationship. I like the idea of having someone you know everything about -- someone who you can depend on and trust and have fun with. It isn't like passion and lust disappear in such relationships either -- you can still be as naughty if not moreso than in a random hookup! I mean it seems like most of it revolves around the idea of having a really good friend -- when you look at your close, long-term friends, you probably see them very fondly. You've had a history together and know each other much more deeply than you would if they were just short-term friendships. I like being the object of someone's desires... there's nothing better than the feeling of being in love with someone you admire greatly. I would not say any of this derives from an insecurity or neediness. If I wanted to get into random hookups I probably could, but I don't see what I'd get from them. Hmmm i 'think' i know what you mean... but I'm not sure. I used to really WANT to be in a committed relationship because i was addicted to the feeling of being 'loved' and 'loving'. I had a couple painful relationships and sort of got sick of them. I didn't find what i was looking for, now I'm not sure if it even exists or if i was simply looking for an "emotion" and not really a "person". I noticed that when i was not in a relationship i would desire one very strongly even to the point where i felt unhappy outside of a relationship. I set out to resolve this and find the answers why. I found that my desire WAS based on neediness. I needed that loving feeling for affirmation of my value, to give me a meaning and purpose in life. I found out that there was a pattern in my partner selection. I'd always find the ones who needed the same thing from me... affirmation. And we exchanged favors.. sometimes for years on end :-). I wasn't a happy person because i didn't have a purpose, no drive, and frankly, bad self esteem. Once i recovered from all that, the need for this loving feeling, the need for a relationship simply disappeared. For a time i did not date at all, but well, I'm still a guy and guys needs women ;-). So i started dating again. I guess in the end I'm still looking for something longer term. I always did have a family aspiration and that will never go away. Though now i am really waiting for the right woman to come along instead of trying to make something work. If it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'm not losing any sleep over it... Furthermore i have adapted a tendency to "walk away" when i sense some signs of troubled waters.
KittenMoon Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 LOL how old are you? From what I can figure, at least 4-5 yrs older than you. I'm a believer in not dating anyone more than a year younger than me- simply because at the moment, any younger puts them back in college, and knowing all the changes that occured in me after college, I consider that a risky situation!
Author Vertex Posted May 22, 2006 Author Posted May 22, 2006 Hmmm i 'think' i know what you mean... but I'm not sure. I used to really WANT to be in a committed relationship because i was addicted to the feeling of being 'loved' and 'loving'. I had a couple painful relationships and sort of got sick of them. I didn't find what i was looking for, now I'm not sure if it even exists or if i was simply looking for an "emotion" and not really a "person". I noticed that when i was not in a relationship i would desire one very strongly even to the point where i felt unhappy outside of a relationship. I set out to resolve this and find the answers why. I found that my desire WAS based on neediness. I needed that loving feeling for affirmation of my value, to give me a meaning and purpose in life. I found out that there was a pattern in my partner selection. I'd always find the ones who needed the same thing from me... affirmation. And we exchanged favors.. sometimes for years on end :-). I wasn't a happy person because i didn't have a purpose, no drive, and frankly, bad self esteem. Once i recovered from all that, the need for this loving feeling, the need for a relationship simply disappeared. For a time i did not date at all, but well, I'm still a guy and guys needs women ;-). So i started dating again. I guess in the end I'm still looking for something longer term. I always did have a family aspiration and that will never go away. Though now i am really waiting for the right woman to come along instead of trying to make something work. If it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'm not losing any sleep over it... Furthermore i have adapted a tendency to "walk away" when i sense some signs of troubled waters. It can be hard to tell if you love the idea of a relationship or if you love the person. This is why I think friendship is important. You would not normally say you like your friends for the sake of having friends -- you like them because they kick ass and are fun to be with. I think the right relationship should be no exception to that rule, but a lot of people oftentimes overlook this and sometimes crave the relationship not knowing what it means to be friends as well. It is good though that you started with yourself -- I think it's important to be content without a relationship first before you can handle one correctly. Icing on the cake but not the cake itself, no? But I am curious about what you mean about making things work. I mean relationships do take work, but when do you know when it's something that can be worked out, and when it's something that cannot?
Author Vertex Posted May 22, 2006 Author Posted May 22, 2006 From what I can figure, at least 4-5 yrs older than you. I'm a believer in not dating anyone more than a year younger than me- simply because at the moment, any younger puts them back in college, and knowing all the changes that occured in me after college, I consider that a risky situation! Herein lies my dilemma The downfall to youth! Haha I do wish that I could be 25 years old and stay there forever... that seems like a good age.
fourfingers Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 But I am curious about what you mean about making things work. I mean relationships do take work, but when do you know when it's something that can be worked out, and when it's something that cannot? It can't be worked out when the other person needs to "change" in order for you to be happy with the relationship. You see, people do not change lightly. They NEVER change unless they personally desire to change. The fact that their partner wants them to change is never a good enough reason. If you meet a person for the first time you must like everything about them. Some thing you may like less and maybe you think "hmm this sort of kind of bothers me but really i can live with it". If it's something you can accept in such a way that after a while you don't even notice it anymore, it's acceptable and you can "work on it"... work on it meaning forget about it ;-). People change, throughout their lives. If the changes are too great this may push partners away from each other. Everyone grows spiritually as the years progress. Some people stop growing when they reach maturity, or grow at a very slow pace after that. Others continue to grow steadily or grow exponentially as they get older. Usually a couple where one of the partners has a closed mind will cause that person to grow much slower spiritually and so eventually they will no longer meet in conversation. Conversation is not really a major aspect of a relationship, it's all about what you expect from it basically... but it may be a hampering point for you. The point is... finding a partner that is "right" for you is NOT EASY. You can't just set out and expect to find one this year... next year or in the coming 5 years. Before you find someone who is truly "right" for you, you will have to browse through a lot of people who aren't "right" for you. You said in your posts that you think "browsing" is shallow. But then i wonder.. how do you meet your lovers? They do not simply pop up one day do they? I think you are "settling" for someone way to fast and then just trying to compensate your incompatibility with effort... Trust me when i say this will not work! You need to find a certain amount of compatibility first and then enter a comfortable relationship. Trust me when i say that there will be plenty of times when you need your energy for the relationship even though you are already very compatible. And as far as i can see, the only way to find a compatible partner among the literally thousands of women you meet is to simply start going through them and dating them... "getting to know" them and figuring out if they are for you or not. More often than not i see that guys simply make a selection based on "who is interested in them". Some guys simply make NO selection at all, they just grab whoever is interested and then expect it to work. That is just crazy, the odds of that would be what? Something close to the lottery? :-). Even when you are actively dating and browsing, it's still quite challenging to find a compatible partner. I'm not sure about you but i expect certain things from my partner like loyalty, honesty, well spoken, fun, etc etc. If i'm simply going by who is OBVIOUSLY interested without my stimulation then i can wait forever for such a person and still not have found her. That is the way i see it.
fourfingers Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 Herein lies my dilemma The downfall to youth! Haha I do wish that I could be 25 years old and stay there forever... that seems like a good age. HAHA! This is very funny... right now i'm thinking of 30-35 as the ideal age! :-) 25 is not really the most ideal age you can be, at least that's what i'm feeling right now. Right now i'm working my ass off so i have something to show for and can possibly retire 10-15 years from now. Right now is when i'm strugling to combine my career, work out, social circles, etc, etc while STILL only having 24h in a day to do it all and 7 days in a week :/. I feel that 25 is about age where you already have the responsibility of maintaining your life as is AND expanding it further. Upgrading carreer, upgrading social life, upgrading your LIFE basically, trying to find a suitable partner... man when i think about everything... i wish i could be 10 years down the road already so i could be on the "steady cruising" lane instead of the "acceleration" lane.
Diver012 Posted May 22, 2006 Posted May 22, 2006 Date an older woman. My generation and the ones younger than I am are just lost and that goes for both genders. I can't even relate to people my age. Also maybe you are looking in the wrong places. If you are having bad luck maybe you need a change of venue. Not always true. Age is not a sign of maturity. I dated a woman 4 yrs older than me, almost 40, and 1 day she loved me, the next she didnt... go figure...
Vega Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 Maybe you should change your approach and date for YOUR pleasure and not the girls. Then when it ends its not a big deal and you can date someone else for YOUR pleasure. Eventually you will find that the girl you are dating is a keeper and you will both be happy.
brightskies Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 Hi Vertex, Don't let things beat you down. Per W. Churchill, "If you're going through hell, keep going." There are always going to be inconsiderate, mean, stupid people in the world. Just keep out of their line of fire and concentrate on the way you live your life. I don't mean that you need to be a selfish bastard; just don't worry so much about how things or people around you are so screwy. You can share your opinions, as we do on this forum. But in the end people make their own decisions and choices. There's no point in going crazy about what other people do or don't do; you can only control yourself and what you do. You're way ahead of the game if you know what you're looking for in life and love. But at the same time, focus on yourself and not on finding someone. Focus on developing emotional self-sufficiency and on making yourself happy; on finding meaning and joy in life apart from having a relationship. When you don't "need" to be with someone, attracting a better quality girl will come easier. Do you have hobbies, sports, and friends outside of school work? Based on your other posts it seems that you put a lot of effort into your relationships, which is good, to a point. Although there's a fine line between "healthy effort" and "trying too hard," where in the latter your partner ends up taking you for granted. Being too accommodating, at the cost of your own well-being, won't work. She'll end up losing respect for you. Also, you already know that you're one of the good ones. Don't succumb to bitterness and lash out by being one of the stupid jerks. You just need to find balance. You'll find that when you become more centered, you'll not only attract better quality women, you'll also be quicker to weed out the chaff and pick out the right one. In the meantime, focus on you.
Author Vertex Posted May 23, 2006 Author Posted May 23, 2006 I think I will do that. And no I'm not going to lash out at her or anything, although I have had the occasional fantasy of pushing her off a cliff...! Jk... kinda... However, I don't know when, in a relationship, it is considered trying hard versus trying too hard. Where is that line?
brightskies Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 First off, I hope you're not still entertaining ideas of getting back together with your ex? It's normal to be angry after all the hurt. Go ahead and enjoy being angry, then practice letting go. The busier you are with your own concerns the farther from your mind she will be. The line between being trying too hard and showing good effort is defined by your personal boundaries. There's always give and take, and on occasion, some imbalance, in a relationship. But if you're consistently being short-changed and only your partner's needs are being met, it's time to take a step back. Save some of you for yourself. If you constantly question if she loves you, if you feel that you're putting in more effort than she is on a very regular basis, then you need to slow down your output of Vertex lovin' a bit. Let her come to you sometimes, let her spoil you sometimes. Allow yourself to receive for a change. The irony is, we tend to chase after people when they're more elusive. No need to fake it or "play games"; just don't be so completely wrapped up in your girlfriend. And keep in mind that you're in college. This is a period of high transition, experimentation, exploration. A lot of the girls that you're going to meet aren't necessarily going to know what they want even if they say they do. They're not always going to behave maturely (e.g.: your ex) even if they're intelligent. That's why, even though it would be nice to be with someone, it doesn't really pay to zero-in on having a serious relationship at this point. If by chance it happens, great. But there's no need to rush it.
Author Vertex Posted May 23, 2006 Author Posted May 23, 2006 Oh no I have no intentions of trying to get back together. I'm trying to focus on moving on and figuring out how to improve myself/figuring out how to be happier. The personal boundary thing makes sense. In general though, looking back, I now see just how unhealthy the relationship was, but while you're in it, there is always this hope of things getting better. Or rather, a hope that the other person will change and want to put more effort into it. Of course, I now know that it is hard to change people and it can only truly be done if they genuinely want to. When do we need to stop hoping? Yeah pulling back on the Vertex loving would have been a better option I wonder why the more elusive are the most desired. It makes no sense to me, personally. I mean I chased after my distant/elusive ex but only because I wanted her to NOT be elusive anymore! Not into that sort of thing. It feels like it is hard to hold back though if you have such strong feelings for someone. You're probably right about college. It's too fluid and chaotic to be an ideal place for serious relationships. It's hard to be in that mindset though because I simply find no satisfaction in casual relationships. If it's worth pursuing something serious then it should be done... but most people in college, even in "serious" relationships, do so with the intention of it eventually coming to an end because they have an idea of "short-term" already built in as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think what I mainly miss is the late-night conversations, the random fun dates at various places, and the snuggling after a really hot, passionate, hard orgasm I miss having someone to fall asleep with after a slow, loving kiss goodnight. I miss all the crazy-hyper things people can do together... it's just hard re-adjusting to a single-lifestyle after becoming so emotional over living in a relationship for a few years. The memories are the worst The most bittersweet things ever. It sucks though because I feel as if the girl I loved no longer exists anywhere but my memory. There used to be a time where she was genuine and happy with life and now I see someone cynical, lazy, and in constant self-denial. My most precious memory... when I went to her school for the first time after about a month of not seeing each other due to college transitions (we had been living together). She was wearing a red sweater-shirt and really nice perfume... she ran to me smiling and we hugged and kissed so crazily -- we missed each other so much. It was like a scene from a movie. The feelings of joy you have in moments like that... there's no way I could ever have them being single or in a casual relationship. I just miss everything I wish I knew why that person suddenly changed into someone wanting nothing to do with me.
brightskies Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 It's true that you can't go into a relationship expecting it to end. However, you also can't go into a relationship expecting it to last forever. Check those expectations at the door and take one day at a time. If you eventually fall in love and can picture you and the future gf together when you're both old and ugly, this is a good sign. But as you know, nothing's guaranteed. It may take several iterations before you hit the right combination of Vertex and said girl. It’s tough when you miss the good times. But your ex isn't the same person you met and fell in love with. She's probably going through a lot of changes just as you are. Even before you broke up your paths were divergent. She would’ve kept pushing you away because she has things to figure out on her end. About “hoping for change”--- sometimes you have to decide when an investment is a sunk cost. If you have co-dependent or self-esteem issues, you’re more likely to hold onto those shreds of optimism even if the situation’s no longer healthy. There were a lot of problems in my last relationship. We kept trying because we both kept hoping. It took an objective third party to help me realize that it was time to move on; that you can't always "make things work" no matter how much you care about someone. How'd I know? I weighed the pros and cons as they stood, discounting future/hoped for/possible change. Because there was a long history of broken promises and pseudo-movement towards change counteracted by repeated remission, I decided that the promise of change wasn't very reliable. It might've been different if there wasn't a lot of waffling, but c'est la vie.
fourfingers Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 you also can't go into a relationship expecting it to last forever. This is actually great advice and a great mindset... Yu apply it to a relationship, but in fact, NOTHING lasts forever. To think it does is only fooling yourself. Nothing is permanent, everything is fleeting. When you can accept this and use it as a handle on life you will see that a lot of insecurtities and fears disappear by themselves. Often times people are to afraid to permanently damage something or change something for the worse.
brightskies Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 Sad, but true. "'Til death do you part" would be the closest to forever in a relationship context.
Author Vertex Posted May 24, 2006 Author Posted May 24, 2006 Ungh it's so hard to get over things sometimes.
brightskies Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 Yeah, especially if you were together a long time. It took me about a year to start dating again after my last break-up. That time off helped a LOT. I know what you mean about not wanting a "shallow, casual" fling thing. But dating, when you're ready, is just part of the process in meeting the right person. You can date without having a relationship. It's totally cool to date several people all at once, as long as things're still in the friendly stages and there's no sex/commitment (just makes things too complicated). As you meet more people, you'll refine your tastes until you narrow down the choices down to that special girl. These are very good points: It can't be worked out when the other person needs to "change" in order for you to be happy with the relationship. You see, people do not change lightly. They NEVER change unless they personally desire to change. The fact that their partner wants them to change is never a good enough reason. If you meet a person for the first time you must like everything about them. Some thing you may like less and maybe you think "hmm this sort of kind of bothers me but really i can live with it". If it's something you can accept in such a way that after a while you don't even notice it anymore, it's acceptable and you can "work on it"... work on it meaning forget about it ;-). The point is... finding a partner that is "right" for you is NOT EASY. You can't just set out and expect to find one this year... next year or in the coming 5 years. Before you find someone who is truly "right" for you, you will have to browse through a lot of people who aren't "right" for you. You need to find a certain amount of compatibility first and then enter a comfortable relationship. Trust me when i say that there will be plenty of times when you need your energy for the relationship even though you are already very compatible. And as far as i can see, the only way to find a compatible partner among the literally thousands of women you meet is to simply start going through them and dating them... "getting to know" them and figuring out if they are for you or not. Very true --- meeting the right person is NOT easy. Took me a LONG time and LOTS of sifting to meet my Honey. I have a strong feeling that you'll be ok; you've got a lot of self-awareness and determination.
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