Revenge...

June 2, 2006

Which is exactly why judgement calls are wrong in the first place. Who among us lives perfectly lives without making mistakes along the way. Who among us knows exactly what else is going on in the person's life that led him or her to these decisions.

Since the answer is no one on both accounts, I try my damnest not to judge anyone in the first place.

Bravo! You never know what's going to happen until you are in that exact place at the exact time so judgment is impossible. As I stated earlier, I was one who swore I'd never cheat and looked down my nose at those who did. That is why I still say and still believe you never know what you will do until you're in that place. And many many people have never been in that place. I had plenty of chances to cheat way before I ever did and I turned every one of them down. Of course people are quick to say, not me, I would NEVER- but that's exactly what I believed and I eventually did. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone!!

Most of the time the people who are cheating are not terrible evil people- they are people who for whatever reason inside themselves have gotten to the place where they do this. The need that the person has- whatever it is- has gotten so great that they cannot cover it up with other things anymore and that leaves them vulnerable. I can tell you I was like a starving person sitting before a buffet- and how could that not be attractive to a starving person??

The thing that kills me is the myth that all OW's are these evil creatures who go out and stalk and go about stealing the MM away from their wives. MM LIE!! BIG TIME!! Mine was a friend for thirteen years who was a pillar of the community and church who I'd never known to tell a lie before- but yet he lied to me!! He pursued me, I didn't go after him. Could I have resisted- I absolutely could have and should have- and I did for a bit- but I was in that place where I needed what he was ready to give me and that obliterated all rational thinking on my part.

I totally think it's a different situation where the woman DOES go after someone's husband- and I know that happens. But, I totally think also that alot of MM lie about the OW pursuing him. Of course, the wife doesn't want to believe bad of this person who they have loved, toiled with, and usually had children with- so the OW is the likely victim. That's just the way it is and who can blame them?? It's as hard to comprehend as a mother who abuses her child in most cases.

Chump- gosh, I'm sorry, that's terrible. I would have never done anything like that with my OM. She's definitely not a good mother if she did that with her kids asleep in another room. WTF?? YUCK!

Don't think about those things and I'm sorry that I brought it up-I was only curious. You're doing well, even if you think you aren't and you've grown so much!

June 2, 2006

Which is exactly why judgement calls are wrong in the first place. Who among us lives perfectly lives without making mistakes along the way. Who among us knows exactly what else is going on in the person's life that led him or her to these decisions.

Since the answer is no one on both accounts, I try my damnest not to judge anyone in the first place.

The only person one should really 'judge' is oneself. For everyone, there is always improvement in some area. Of course, that is much harder and less fun than worrying about what another should or shouldn't have done.

You are right that absolutely no one is perfect and can go through life without making mistakes. HOWEVER, when you conciously make a CHOICE that profoundly disrupts and screws up another persons life it isn't a mistake. It's a choice - cut and dry. It's not like saying: I forgot to pay the gas bill or pick up milk from the store. Those are mistakes. I know that's not a popular opinion these days when no one wants to be accountable for ANYTHING they do anymore. It's oh so much easier to just cut your losses and move on and leave other people to clean up the mess. Now I know this sounds very judgemental and I guess that it is. I try and live my life in such a way that I always respect other people and treat them as I want to be treated. I have also been put in the situation where I could have been the other man and I can understand the allure. However, I would like to think that I was raised to be a little better than to mess around with someone else's wife just because I can. That also applies to these A-holes that lie to women and tell them they are single or seperated and lure them into a relationship. I feel so sorry for those women that get screwed over like that and the guys that do it are lower than dirt.

June 2, 2006

Which is exactly why judgement calls are wrong in the first place. Who among us lives perfectly lives without making mistakes along the way. Who among us knows exactly what else is going on in the person's life that led him or her to these decisions.

Since the answer is no one on both accounts, I try my damnest not to judge anyone in the first place.

The only person one should really 'judge' is oneself. For everyone, there is always improvement in some area. Of course, that is much harder and less fun than worrying about what another should or shouldn't have done.

BI, I do see what you're saying but let me ask you...why is it so wrong to tell an OW or someone else that is taking part in something that is so damaging and hurting as infidelity that it's wrong? Nobody is going to win and you're taking part in something that could not only tear a spouse apart emotionally but also innocent children? I truly try not to judge people based upon mistakes - because like you said - we all make them. Gawd, when I think of some of the things in my life I did I am ashamed and truly sorry for them. But I also think that people have the right and maybe the responsibility to speak up and say "hey, what you're doing is wrong. you are doing something that is incredibly painful to someone you don't even know." I am not saying that we should not try to understand and help or throw a scarlet letter on them and make them feel as low as possible but what is so judgemental about saying that we don't accept what there doing to another human being as a nice thing. That we should all be looking out for one another on this planet and by taking part in something like that we're basically doing the opposite. Why is that so wrong to say and share on forums such as these?

June 2, 2006

Z, I don't believe that you have EVER spewed venom on any forum.

Thanks, Silk! Nice to see ya!

I can be pretty venomous to those who go on the OW site to be cruel. Like I've said before, we are all in pain and none of us deserve the kind of pain that we suffer.

Silk, I think that you and Chump are really brave to take the route you've chosen. People who have not walked the road you have won't understand your path. They give opinions on what they would hypothetically do. Everyone has to do what they is in their best interest. You keep your head high and don't let anyone cause you to falter.

I understand the giving your marriage another chance. I'm going through that right now too. There are good days and bad.

Good luck!

June 2, 2006

Zara, where in my post did I ever say that you couldn't lurk or post on this forum? I certainly don't appreciate it when a BS gets told not to post on the OW forum and I would never tell an OW that she can't post in the infidelity forum. But I do think that sometimes people go into them to take out their real life frustrations and aggravations and hurt on people they don't know and of course that is not productive or helpful at all. I think we should all maybe be a little kinder and a little gentler with each other in our posts. I am sorry if I offended you and that was not my intention at all.

I've told BSs and MMs who call OWs sluts to go away on the OW forum. To me that's venom and isn't doing anything positive on a support forum. I guess that as an OW on the infidelity forum, that sometimes you pipe up with an opinion and it can gets construed as negative or condescending because its assumed that you don't have good intentions at heart.

Wish we could wipe away the roles, heck, I wish I could wipe away the hurt that have been inflicted on us, but alas, that's not possible.

Hugs to everyone.

June 2, 2006

Pixie: You never know what's going to happen until you are in that exact place at the exact time so judgment is impossible. As I stated earlier, I was one who swore I'd never cheat and looked down my nose at those who did. That is why I still say and still believe you never know what you will do until you're in that place. And many many people have never been in that place.

I hate it when people use absolutes and say “I will nevah ….” But there are two different issues going on here. Saying you will never cheat (or never do XYZ) is short-sighted. I can’t even say that for sure, and I’ve been badly burned by infidelity. Saying you can’t / shouldn’t / won’t judge people who cheat? That’s bullsh*t. If I cheated, I’d like to think I'd take my knocks and judge my own self harshly. And I will reserve the right to judge cheaters. Despite the circumstances, it’s not something that just happens. It is a clear, definite and deliberate choice -- especially when it happens repeatedly. I'd give everything I own to trade with some of these BS I see who are struggling with a one night stand.

So in summary, absolutes are ridiculous. Judging others for their misdeeds? Normal and even justifiable, IMO.

Blind Illusion: Who among us knows exactly what else is going on in the person's life that led him or her to these decisions.

Fair enough, but that absolves NO ONE from accountability, or even strong judgment. I’m not saying that domestic abuse or rape are on the same level as infidelity, but when people commit crimes such as these, there are usually some definite, messed up reasons in their personal backgrounds that contribute. Does that let them off the hook, in terms of judgment from others? Nope. Furthermore, Joe Jones and Joe Blow may have the exact same circumstances, backgrounds, and situations, but one may choose to cheat and the other may not. Any way you slice it and dice it, it’s still a choice that the perpetrator deserves to be judged for and held accountable for.

Pixie: The thing that kills me is the myth that all OW's are these evil creatures who go out and stalk and go about stealing the MM away from their wives.

I’m not really seeing that, at least on this board. That may be more apparent on the OW / OM board, where trolls pop in to throw barbs and then usually vanish. Most of the BS people who post about infidelity are holding their own spouses accountable. I don’t have much time for BSs who focus only on the affair partner. Yet it is also very normal to hold ill will toward the affair partner. It’s unrealistic to think that a BS is not going to have harsh judgments toward the other person.

June 2, 2006

sometimes you pipe up with an opinion and it can gets construed as negative or condescending because its assumed that you don't have good intentions at heart

Sometimes it's just how you word it, or even the context of the dialogue going on.

June 2, 2006

You are right that absolutely no one is perfect and can go through life without making mistakes. HOWEVER, when you conciously make a CHOICE that profoundly disrupts and screws up another persons life it isn't a mistake. It's a choice - cut and dry. It's not like saying: I forgot to pay the gas bill or pick up milk from the store. Those are mistakes. I know that's not a popular opinion these days when no one wants to be accountable for ANYTHING they do anymore. It's oh so much easier to just cut your losses and move on and leave other people to clean up the mess. Now I know this sounds very judgemental and I guess that it is. I try and live my life in such a way that I always respect other people and treat them as I want to be treated. I have also been put in the situation where I could have been the other man and I can understand the allure. However, I would like to think that I was raised to be a little better than to mess around with someone else's wife just because I can. That also applies to these A-holes that lie to women and tell them they are single or seperated and lure them into a relationship. I feel so sorry for those women that get screwed over like that and the guys that do it are lower than dirt.

Thank you Shineshop - I agree with you. When you consciously make a choice to screw around with someone's SO - it's not a mistake.

I also had chances to go out on my bf when I was dating him. I had a guy at work that asked me to go to a college football game with him as he had tickets. I politely told him thank you (and I really thought this guy was so nice and good-looking ) and he was not married or seeing anyone but I had a bf and I informed him of that. He backed off and never asked me again. Also, when I first started chatting on the computer, and I was into looking for someone to date, if a guy started chatting with me but then informed me he was married or had a gf, that was an immediate turn-off. I told him bye and I felt sorry for his gf or wife. So we all have times when we could cheat but there are those of us who won't. Like you Shineshop, I was also raised better.

And the for those who say their life was so miserable that they were vulnerable, I don't believe that excuse either. My first marriage got to the point where it was "hell on earth" for me. I didn't cheat on my husband, though I was so unhappy I guess I could have. My ex had lost his job, didn't bother looking for another, I had 3 kids to feed and clothe and put a roof over our heads. The place we rented had sagging floors, broken windows, a water pump that wouldn't work half the time so that meant no water, a toilet that wouldn't flush unless plunged and a whole host of other problems. My husband drank and gambled and generally did nothing to help - sex was nonexistent. I tried to take care of my kids and go to work everyday until finally I got out of that situation and got a divorce - THEN I was free to date again - not before. I met a variety of men at work and could have started something but I chose to confide in my women friends about my unhappiness and not men. That's just me and because at my age I knew that confiding in men could possibly lead to more as many of you know. I wasn't going to put myself, my husband, my children, the other man, the other man's wife or gf or the other man's children through that. It's not worth it

June 2, 2006

Good points, SueB. It sounds like you have had some really rough moments in your life.

My own childhood was influenced by my father’s infidelity, and my parents’ eventual divorce (which was not solely based on infidelity). The divorce was actually a good thing for me in many ways (moved away to a bigger area with better education, other opportunities, etc.) Anyway -- my husband grew up in a much more stable family and he was completely adored, and can recall no childhood trauma. Mix that background in with what I thought was a good man with great character, a good marriage (and a great father), and the whole thing is just that much more confusing. This is something my husband and I talked about before we got married -- my concerns about infidelity and divorce, given what I saw growing up. He assured me repeatedly that I shouldn't worry and that he would never enter into a marriage thinking that divorce would ever be an option.

I am sure there are some people out there who know about his affair. But most are oblivious, except for a few close friends of ours, and they would be completely and utterly floored. Just like me I guess.

I also had several opportunities to frolick around outside our marriage, but I didn’t go there.

In some cases, I firmly believe that selfishness, arrogance and ego stroking are strong factors in a spouse's cheating.

June 2, 2006

Blind Illusion: Who among us knows exactly what else is going on in the person's life that led him or her to these decisions.

Fair enough, but that absolves NO ONE from accountability, or even strong judgment. I’m not saying that domestic abuse or rape are on the same level as infidelity, but when people commit crimes such as these, there are usually some definite, messed up reasons in their personal backgrounds that contribute. Does that let them off the hook, in terms of judgment from others? Nope. Furthermore, Joe Jones and Joe Blow may have the exact same circumstances, backgrounds, and situations, but one may choose to cheat and the other may not. Any way you slice it and dice it, it’s still a choice that the perpetrator deserves to be judged for and held accountable for.

I can appreciate what you and ShineShop both say about accountability. I really truly can. But still, a part of me thinks that this accountability should come from one's self and not other people. (since Self is the one that knows the whole pictire) Sorry, I guess that's just something entrenched in me and really pre-dates my own circumstance. I do understand the point that you are both trying to make though.

June 2, 2006

But still, a part of me thinks that this accountability should come from one's self and not other people.

So a cheating spouse is accountable only to himself? I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying. Would you say the same for a person who committed a crime?

Actually, adultery IS a crime....

June 2, 2006

But still, a part of me thinks that this accountability should come from one's self and not other people.

So a cheating spouse is accountable only to himself? I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying. Would you say the same for a person who committed a crime?

Actually, adultery IS a crime....

Ok, I tried to edit but you guys are too quick for this typist that actually looks at the keys.

I was saying that the same part of me that won't judge a person that finds themself in some love tryst is the same part that would never dream of questioning a BS why they might give their marriage another chance or why they might end it immediately. Who am I to really know what is best for another or how someone got themselves in a situation? I know these are two different things but it's just a mindset that I have. Or try to. (obviously, I dont always succeed & sometimes, I will admit that I find it easier to be this way with women)

I mean nobody any harm. It's just the way I conduct my own friendships in life and I guess I kind of extend this same way to the people that I encounter online.

June 2, 2006

Actually, adultery IS a crime....

Yeah, in some parts of the world, I believe its punishable by death. I remember a case a few years back where a woman was stoned to death because she was raped, impregnated by her rapist and because of that she was considered an Adulterer. Its sad when laws are taken to such extremes. Don't know why I'm posting this, but it struck a memory, I guess.

How are you feeling today Chump? Better than yesterday, I hope.

June 2, 2006

Blind Illusion, I'm sorry, but I think you'd have to practically be a saint not to harshly judge someone who had a 10-year affair.

No, you are right. (that I judge him harshly, not that I am a saint) I already admitted in a former post that I don't always have my same mindset when it comes to the menfolk.

June 2, 2006

BI – FYI, I’m not trying to pick your posts apart; I just think this discussion is interesting.

This is what I’m hearing you say (tell me if I’m wrong):

“My husband cheated on me, and I’m going to stay with him (or) I’m going to dump him.” I can see how it’s hard to question what’s best. There are so many variables.

Are you also saying that you can't judge "what's best" with regard to someone considering an affair?

“I’m married, but I want to cheat with Bill. What’s best for my situation?” To me, “what’s best” is pretty clear. Either get out of the marriage or shoo Bill away. Of course there are variables and it’s complicated, and we don’t know how it all came about, but the bottom line is that there is a right and a wrong in this situation, unlike the other scenario about whether to fix a marriage. At least there is a ‘right or wrong’ within the context of our society and the way marriage is ultimately set up, with the expectation of monogamy. (That’s a different debate.)

June 2, 2006

Thanks Z. I am doing a little better. I should be getting more work done though!

June 2, 2006

Thanks Z. I am doing a little better. I should be getting more work done though!

Me too!!

I'm down in a slump myself... long story and really doesn't belong here on this forum.

June 2, 2006

“I’m married, but I want to cheat with Bill. What’s best for my situation?” To me, “what’s best” is pretty clear. Either get out of the marriage or shoo Bill away. Of course there are variables and it’s complicated, and we don’t know how it all came about, but the bottom line is that there is a right and a wrong in this situation, unlike the other scenario about whether to fix a marriage. At least there is a ‘right or wrong’ within the context of our society and the way marriage is ultimately set up, with the expectation of monogamy. (That’s a different debate.)

I hear you, Chump... and I'll say that's pretty much the advice a lot of us OW give when a new OW or wannabe OW goes on the OW forum.

I took steps to get out of my marriage prior to my MM entering into my life. He also took steps to end his marraige too, but in the end the call of history and familiarity of his old life that beckoned him home. Unknowingly, I became an OW or was made an OW. I told my MM that there was so much at stake and that he cannot afford to lose everything for me. That I will be satisfied for the rest of my life we could maintain a platonic friendship. That eventually, the feelings of love will fade as he worked for this marriage. I said to him that if he and his W respect each other, and care for each other, then that's a really good foundation to continue building on... especially if kids are involved. He didn't listen to me and he left a carnage of pain for all involved. It was unneccessary and cruel. When I look back, I needed to have dealt with the loss of my marriage first and exhausted all avenues first and his being in my life clouded my judgement. That was my action and I live the consequences of it each and every day.

I hope that my sharing this with you my own experience as to where I got to where I am is not causing you pain. I hope anyone reading this will think twice before engaging in an A. There are days when I think that a physical wound hurts less. But then again, I have a slew of issues that I need to deal with.

June 2, 2006

Z, that is a very sad story. I’m impressed that you did the right thing. It seems like there are some very common traits among wandering MM, and they aren’t good ones. And no, your story doesn’t cause any pain. It gives me some insight.

In my case, I can’t wrap my head around the cruelty, and it’s so much worse when it’s completely uncharacteristic of the person. I just wish that I’d been given a choice in the situation. I would rather have had him leave me -- though he swears he never wanted to, nor did the OW want to leave her husband -- than go through all of this deception. My older kids were toddlers at that time and it would have been easier than now. They are almost teens and I can’t bear to see their image of their dad ruined, nor can I bear to make this a life-defining experience for them. I also love my husband, of course, but if I could ultimately have what I wanted without all the carnage and fallout, I think we’d be separated and he’d have to win me back. He still has to do that (and is doing his best) but some physical separation would be good for me, most days.

June 2, 2006

Z, that is a very sad story. I’m impressed that you did the right thing. It seems like there are some very common traits among wandering MM, and they aren’t good ones. And no, your story doesn’t cause any pain. It gives me some insight.

In my case, I can’t wrap my head around the cruelty, and it’s so much worse when it’s completely uncharacteristic of the person. I just wish that I’d been given a choice in the situation. I would rather have had him leave me -- though he swears he never wanted to, nor did the OW want to leave her husband -- than go through all of this deception. My older kids were toddlers at that time and it would have been easier than now. They are almost teens and I can’t bear to see their image of their dad ruined, nor can I bear to make this a life-defining experience for them. I also love my husband, of course, but if I could ultimately have what I wanted without all the carnage and fallout, I think we’d be separated and he’d have to win me back. He still has to do that (and is doing his best) but some physical separation would be good for me, most days.

my xMM's kids are young enough to live 'in the moment' and old enough to harbour memories of this mess. His son was old enough to ask if he had a girlfriend when he and his W broke the news of the separation to his kids. You know it may be hard to believe, but I truly worry for them. His W didn't have a choice either as he made up his mind to leave her without giving her a chance... a chance I begged him to take and he didn't take it. I told him to talk to his brother. I told him to talk to his friends and not make the decision to leave his family without talking to someone about it. That they may talk some sense into him. Did he take me up on that? Nope. He said that the one thing he valued most about me was my opinion. Well, its not like he took the good ones! What a dumbass!

If you need the time apart, there are probably choices you can make without bringing in the topic of the OW with your kids. In my opinion, if you are working on your marriage, being away from him will only make it more difficult to work together on the M. In the end though, you need to do what's best for you and remember what is best for you will eventually be what's best for your children too. So I really wish you much luck on the paths you choose to take. Out of curiosity, what are you doing in order to make him win you back?

June 2, 2006

It’s too bad that your MM’s wife told the real reason for the separation. I see no reason to do that with very young kids unless there’s absolutely no way around it. That is something that will stick with the kids, most likely. So what is your XMM’s situation right now? Is he back with his wife?

About your question…

Well, I’m not making him do anything. I told him what I need if he wants this marriage to work, but that I will survive if he leaves. I had no interest in being with a man who was truly pining for the love of his life, but he denied that was the case. I’ve also told him that he WILL leave if he takes up with her again, b/c I will change the locks and throw his crap on the front yard.

Basically I am asking him to try to find out how this became “ok” in his mind – what the factors at play might have been, how his values changed, how he justified this, how he could get to the point where he put so little value into our marriage, etc. – to find out what some of his reasons were. To do this, he’s reading a few related books, is in therapy twice a week (once alone, once with me), and we are both trying to spend more time together and make our marriage more of a priority than it has been. We also have the marriage itself to deal with, but neither one of us can identify overriding issues or problems that led to his A. I guess that’s what therapists are for! At the time it started, we had small kids and were very busy so I’m sure we were vulnerable, relationship-wise. It’s not like I became an uber mom and neglected him. He has always been more maternal than me. Gah! We are also guilty of having a very kid-centered marriage.

He is incredibly stressed and remorseful and it has been hard on him. I am trying to have some empathy, but it’s not exactly overflowing. We are always civil and polite though, and our kids are oblivious. The OW and her husband are also keeping their kids out of it, as far as I know. The husband emailed me when this all came out, and we talked about trying to protect the kids involved.

June 2, 2006

It’s too bad that your MM’s wife told the real reason for the separation. I see no reason to do that with very young kids unless there’s absolutely no way around it. That is something that will stick with the kids, most likely. So what is your XMM’s situation right now? Is he back with his wife?

I agree with you on that one and yes, I think it will stay with them for the rest of their lives. His W wouldn't let him go home for the first week or two and told them that he is away on business. When we split up, he told his kids that I was away on business and that is why my cat wasn't there when they visited, then he told them I moved away. If I was one of the kids, whenever someone says, "I'm going away on business", I'd be freaked out. Anyway, I'm probably over-analysing.

When they were going to tell the kids about the separation, they weren't going to tell them that daddy has a new friend. But when the son asked, his wife told him, "Yes, daddy has a new girlfriend". I would have preferred to be addressed as "an adult problem" instead, but they are their kids and they will raise them how they see fit.

My xMM is back with his wife now. It took her 2 months after we split to take him back. He told me a month ago how well they are doing and that they have gone to do some programs together. Its like rubbing salt on the wound and pouring bleach on it. I told him to stop talking to me altogether except for work related issues.

Yesterday, he contacted me with regards to mail at our old place and I told him that I will contact our old landlord personally. I told him that I cannot deal with him and these issues as it reminds me of what hell this all is. I told him that each day I go to work that its a reminder of the pain he's caused in my life. He says that it reminds him of me too, but he didn't see it negatively like I do. I told him that he should as his actions really hurt a lot of people. Then he told me that he really truely loved me and that he always will and that someday he hopes I can forgive him. I told him that he shouldn't talk to me anymore... that his wife would not like it. Anyway, I'm trying to do the right thing each day.

About your question…

Well, I’m not making him do anything. I told him what I need if he wants this marriage to work, but that I will survive if he leaves. I had no interest in being with a man who was truly pining for the love of his life, but he denied that was the case. I’ve also told him that he WILL leave if he takes up with her again, b/c I will change the locks and throw his crap on the front yard.

That for sure needs to happen if he does hook up with her again.

Basically I am asking him to try to find out how this became “ok” in his mind – what the factors at play might have been, how his values changed, how he justified this, how he could get to the point where he put so little value into our marriage, etc. – to find out what some of his reasons were. To do this, he’s reading a few related books, is in therapy twice a week (once alone, once with me), and we are both trying to spend more time together and make our marriage more of a priority than it has been. We also have the marriage itself to deal with, but neither one of us can identify overriding issues or problems that led to his A. I guess that’s what therapists are for! At the time it started, we had small kids and were very busy so I’m sure we were vulnerable, relationship-wise. It’s not like I became an uber mom and neglected him. He has always been more maternal than me. Gah! We are also guilty of having a very kid-centered marriage.

that's what happens to many marriages... the kids are the center of the universe and then the marriage suffers as a result. If it was a problem, it should have been addressed. Same thing with my xMM... he lives in a kid centric home and the marriage fell to the way-side. Didn't tell me that, just told me the things that his wife did to make him feel bad about himself and that he was not happy with her anymore.

He is incredibly stressed and remorseful and it has been hard on him. I am trying to have some empathy, but it’s not exactly overflowing. We are always civil and polite though, and our kids are oblivious. The OW and her husband are also keeping their kids out of it, as far as I know. The husband emailed me when this all came out, and we talked about trying to protect the kids involved.

Its hard to empathize with someone that's hurt you so badly. You aren't reheating his sins for dinner and that's really noble. I think that's the best you can offer at the moment. I am grateful each day that my H doesn't. I think that its important to find out what he values as important in any relationship and see if you have it in you to meet them and vice versa. For me, being held and cuddled is really important. To be told that I'm loved is important. Of course actions need to back up the words, but your love can surely grow from this.

June 2, 2006

that’s not likely to make me feel better or to make my life better long term, given the circumstances (a decent marriage worth saving, a remorseful and regretful spouse who is doing all he can to fix himself).

Of course he is regretful- HE WAS CAUGHT! YOU needed to stop him. He couldn't stop himself which means he doesn't give a s*** about you and your feelings and probably NEVER HAS!

It means much more when a man stops his bad and destructful behavior HIMSELF and feels guilt and remorse... not when a man ACTS upset AFTER he is caught, then claims to "change".. yeah.. right... give a few years and it will be same old same old!

June 2, 2006

Oh great, Butafly is back with a new name.

June 2, 2006

that’s not likely to make me feel better or to make my life better long term, given the circumstances (a decent marriage worth saving, a remorseful and regretful spouse who is doing all he can to fix himself).

Of course he is regretful- HE WAS CAUGHT! YOU needed to stop him. He couldn't stop himself which means he doesn't give a s*** about you and your feelings and probably NEVER HAS!

It means much more when a man stops his bad and destructful behavior HIMSELF and feels guilt and remorse... not when a man ACTS upset AFTER he is caught, then claims to "change".. yeah.. right... give a few years and it will be same old same old!

I honestly don't think that what you wrote is in any way shape or form helpful. You are not her H, so you really don't see what's going on in their M.

I think that when someone gets caught doing something, they can either say you know what, you've caught, me. I'm sorry and I'll change and prove it. Or they care so little that he/she can say, "yeah, you caught me so what... if you don't like it you can leave". He cares enough to want to stay. He gave up what he was requested as proof that he wants to stay and now that she knows what he's done, she knows what to look for.

You don't know that he will do the same thing a few years down the road... how can you? Besides, so what if he does in a few years, then at least Chump knows that she gave it her all and she can hold her head high knowing she tried again instead of just giving up.... that she has no regrets.

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